25-5 S&W throats...again

[murf205]

Does anybody know when and if Smith and wesson fixed the oversized throat problem in the 25-5 revolvers. I have found one that is, of course, overpriced but I am missing a 45 S&W and I would like to buy it but I am not in the market for a gun that has huge throats either. I know that early on the 25-5 Smith's had throats as large as .458 but they tightened them up. The gun I'm looking at has a 3 letter code in the front of the serial number and I am curious as to whether they had fixed this by the early '80. I have no physical access to the gun or I would break out my set of pin gages. Anybody know for sure?

[Drm50]

I wouldn't sweat a slightly over sized throat. The undersized throats are the problem. When bullet comes through its sized and if bore is larger you got problems. Some guns upset enough to make up for it other don't.
I've got 3 m25s. Two are right on spec and one is undersized. It shoots cast 250gr fine but doesn't shoot WCs as well as the other 2.

[Wheelguns 1961]

It is my understanding that, when they stopped pinning the barrels, they fixed the throat issue. If the gun has a pinned barrel, I would want to check the throats before putting my money down.

[DougGuy]

My avatar pic is a Uberti with .451" bore and .4565" throats. It shoots very well with 454190 sized .456" so I wouldn't be overly concerned with throats.

[USSR]

The gun I'm looking at has a 3 letter code in the front of the serial number and I am curious as to whether they had fixed this by the early '80. I have no physical access to the gun or I would break out my set of pin gages. Anybody know for sure?

You are GTG. While the non-letter code prefix guns are hit and miss (I have one with perfect throats and another with .455" throats), I have never heard of the letter code prefix guns having anything other than correct size throats.

Don

[murf205]

Thanks. I guess I could always get Tom at Accurate to cut a mold the size of the throats if they are too big. We are very fortunate to have the custom mold makers of today supplying us with great molds at a reasonable price, The reports of some guns that wont hit a bull in the butt might have a lot to do with the shooter, but I think I'm going to spring for this 45 if I can get my mind right. They are not going down in price any time soon, as near as I can tell.

[Guesser]

I fought that battle.....about the well known S&W wide throats in the 45 Colt chambering. It was a 25-3 that was tugging at me. I finally jumped in and brought it home. First thing I did to it after a thorough cleaning, check out and loobing was check the chamber throats. imagine how surprised and gratified I was to note the smallest was .452 and the largest of the 6 was .453. That revolver has become my favorite 45 Colt revolver, in fact I sold off 4 others as a consequence of the way this S&W 25-3 handles my cast hand loads.

[oldsalt444]

The throats on my 25 all measure .455, but I found a solution. Bear Creek Supply makes hollow base SWC and full wadcutter for the 45. With 4.2 gr. of VV N310, the 185 gr. SWCHB will shoot a 1 hole cluster at 25 yd. from a sandbag rest. Bullseye competition level accuracy. Not bad for a 1950's era revolver with big throats. However, it is 45 ACP/45AR chambered.

The hollow base expands to fill the throat when fired, then fits tight into the barrel which are usually .452.

[PBSmith]

I had one of the 25's with large throats. It was the 125th anniversary issue (fancy box, book, jewelry, etc). I could dig out a serial # if that would help, but I doubt it would give a definitive answer. If my recall is working at all, I'm not sure even S&W was able to pinpoint the transition.

When I owned that 25, Jan Libourel was handgun editor at Guns & Ammo. He had one of the oversize throat 25's and ended up designing a wadcutter bullet just for that strange bore/throat anomaly. At Mr. Libourel's suggestion, I purchased his mold design from SAECO. Needless to say, that mold cast beautiful bullets that proved to be very accurate in my revolver.

If anyone feels plagued by his or her oversized-throats 25, fret not. The right diameter bullet will shoot well. I also had an oversize Lyman mold whose babies shot almost as well as the Libourel bullet.

If your plague won't go away, consider ringing me up. Kind of wish I hadn't sold that revolver. If the price and condition of your piece are right, I might be able to relieve your distress.

[Guesser]

The 25-3 that I mentioned in post #7 is one of the 125th Anniversary guns. It really likes 454190 and 452423 sized to .452. However, I tried 454424 in a bunch of different alloys over a bunch of different powders; Never could get it to work well in anything but a Contender 10" bull barrel.

[DougGuy]

imagine how surprised and gratified I was to note the smallest was .452 and the largest of the 6 was .453. That revolver has become my favorite 45 Colt revolver, in fact I sold off 4 others as a consequence of the way this S&W 25-3 handles my cast hand loads.

Imagine how gratified you would be with the groups it shot if all the throats were the same!

[Deadeye Bly]

My S&W 25 has the big throats and I just shoot big bullets. It shoots as well as I can these days.

[Outpost75]

My S&W 25 has the big throats and I just shoot big bullets. It shoots as well as I can these days.

I had exactly the same experience with a 25-5 back in the 1980s. Cylinder throats were .457"

I read Elmer Keith's book Sixgun Cartridges and Loads, (Samworth, 1936) where he talked about taking the Ideal #457191 bullet for the .45-90 Winchester and shortening it by one driving band. I took an RCBS 45-300FN mold for the .45-70 and had the blocks shortened to remove the GC heel to produce a .457" diameter, 280-grain flatbased bullet with big meplat.

The S&W shot that bullet great with either 7 grains of Unique or 8 grains of Herco. Never chronographed it, but load was a killer on deer at tree stand ranges. Later traded the S&W for a Ruger NM Blackhawk 4-5/8" convertible which DougGuy 10-years later reamed both cylinders for me so that I could shoot the same .454 bullets in that I shoot in my 1923 Colt New Service .45 Colt and 1914 Colt New Service .455 Eley. Accurate 45-264D is a good choice too.

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Preferred heavy bullet for the .45 Colt these days is Accurate 45-290H with 7.2 grains of Bullseye measured with RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #13

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[6bg6ga]

My 25-5 S&W is extremely accurate and a fun gun to shoot.

[Guesser]

Douguy.....I have the throat reaming tooling to do it but it shoots better than I do now. I reamed 7 different Ruger NMBH 45 cylinders to get them in line; but I'm leaving this 25-3 where it is.

[skeettx]

Got an old 25-5 off gunbroker
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/814171115
took it out and shot it today with light loads
What fun, what fun
I had loaded a bunch of ammo using the 200 grain 45ACP semi-wad bullet
It just keep eating the center out of the small rifle target.
Never measured the guns holes, and probably never will as it shot well.
Mike

[DougGuy]

Douguy.....I have the throat reaming tooling to do it but it shoots better than I do now. I reamed 7 different Ruger NMBH 45 cylinders to get them in line; but I'm leaving this 25-3 where it is.

The reamer will not cut even sized holes, it is actually very dependent on the hardness of the cylinder itself, and with Ruger there are a LOT of variations. In fact, the only real constant thing I can truthfully say after reaming and honing a couple thousand by now, is that they are very inconsistent.

A cylinder that is very hard to turn the reamer in, will finish with a much smaller diameter throat than a softer one and certainly smaller than a S&W cylinder which are much softer and easier to cut and very very consistent in the metallurgy.

Ruger cylinders by contrast, most often have one side of the cylinder harder than the other, or sometimes one or two throats are near impossible to ream, and the others cut like butter. This is more common than I would have ever guessed, and those hard to cut holes, do in fact finish smaller. Some will finish and a .452" minus pin, will NOT go through the throat that the .4525" reamer JUST went through. Reamer crush? Likely. Fact of life with Ruger cylinders, the only workaround is to finish sizing the throats with a stepless method.

Without the Sunnen hone, I would not be able to deliver cylinders with throats within a few tenths of a thousandth in size.

[Jtarm]

I wouldn't sweat a slightly over sized throat. The undersized throats are the problem. When bullet comes through its sized and if bore is larger you got problems. Some guns upset enough to make up for it other don't.
I've got 3 m25s. Two are right on spec and one is undersized. It shoots cast 250gr fine but doesn't shoot WCs as well as the other 2.

Undersized throats can be reamed or honed to a larger diameter. You can’t make a big throat smaller, though.

My impression is by the -5 change they had fixed it. If you’re inspecting one for purchase, take a .452 cast slug and see how easily it goes through.

My 1973 25-2 runs about .4545.

[Drm50]

I have a Ideal 322gr HP Gould Express that I shaved mould and increased dia" of Hp to end up with 272gr HP.
I originally did this for a Colt NS in 455 Eley. It shoots fine with 4.5gr Unique. Shot as cast. I think it's only about 600fps. Never tried in in 25s. I have on -5 that is pinned and two that aren't.

[murf205]

Got an old 25-5 off gunbroker
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/814171115
took it out and shot it today with light loads
What fun, what fun
I had loaded a bunch of ammo using the 200 grain 45ACP semi-wad bullet
It just keep eating the center out of the small rifle target.
Never measured the guns holes, and probably never will as it shot well.
Mike

You know how to break a guys heart brother. I just had a 25-5 spotted on Gbroker with an almost reasonable "buy now". While I was wringing my hands in procrastination, it vanished! Apparently somebody else was not waiting to see how high the bid was going and pulled the trigger(pun intended). You scored a heck of a deal in that 25-5 of yours. I guess I'll just keep the search going.

[Old School Big Bore]

"It is my understanding that, when they stopped pinning the barrels, they fixed the throat issue. If the gun has a pinned barrel, I would want to check the throats before putting my money down."
Just before sustaining my retirement-forcing injury, I bought a 625-8 JM. About a year later, after receiving my delayed military retirement lump, I spent part of it on a 625-6 Mountain gun and a 624. The 624 and Mountain gun both have pinned barrels, pinned front sights, non-recessed chamber rims and 'real' firing pins; one having the old style cylinder latch and a square butt and vacuum-plated hardened hammer & trigger, and the other having the case-hardened hammer & trigger, the new latch and being a round-butt; neither has the Hillary hole. The JM of course has a round butt, DX front sight, vapor-plated MIM T&H with frame-mounted firing pin and the hated keyhole. As far as serial numbers go, the 625-8JM starts with DDB. the .45 Colt 625-6 starts with CAS, and the 624 no-dash starts with AHB.
The first thing I did upon unboxing all of the above was sit down with several boxes of the corresponding caliber boolits and J-words and a micrometer - I have no access to plug gauges - and a little pusher made out of a short S&W cleaning rod and a shotgun thread adaptor, and started dropping/pushing/driving slugs through all the chambers. I measured all the slugs prior to using them, used a fresh one for each chamber, and re-measured the ones that didn't drop through nor slip-fit. I noted whether each of the test slugs were: loose, slip-fit, easier press-fit, harder press-fit, or get-the-mallet. After the most recent acquisition, out of curiosity, I did the same thing with my beloved and very tired 29-2, my also very tired match 66 and its replacement 686, a safe queen 27-2, a raft of ancient retired TXDPS 28s awaiting recaliber-ing projects, and my 90-year-old pre-model-12 1905 4th change .32-20. Very much to my surprise EVERY SINGLE S&W I checked had NO DETECTABLE anomalous throats! The shot-to-rags & flinders 29, 66 and old student-abused 28s had very slight variations in the degree of effort required to pass the fatter slugs, but not enough for me to step them up to the next 'grade'. The newer 625s and 624 not only were highly consistent in that regard but are MATCH TIGHT in the cylinder gap - endshake - crane fit - timing - lockup aspects. Between store-bought and my own cast, I had test bullets of .3565 to .3582 in thousandth or half-thousandth increments, .4285 through .4325, .4495 through .4535 the same way, and a handful of .3095-.3140, and the consistency of dimensions was astounding to me, having read all the reporting on throat variations. Being focused on Smiths, I did not check any Rugers nor Charters. Again, I have no precision plug gauges, but I did what I could with what I had using boolits/bullets for makeshift gauges and measuring the hell out of them with a good mic. I have yet to slug any of the barrels; I don't have appropriate gear and basically hunt and peck til I find out what diameter they like.

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that when they stopped pinning barrels, they began over-tightening the barrels and created the "thread choke" problem, which is a whole other can of worms...

[murf205]

Old School, that's exactly what I found with my 4" 629 which is about a 2003 or 2004 with the Hillary hole. It is/was very tight with the throats measuring .4285 to .429. I had a slight tendency to lead and I bought a Manson reamer and pilots to relieve it to .431 which solved the leading immediately. There was NO endshake and the cyl gap was rather tight, though I dont recall the exact measurement. All in all, I would have to say that the gun is a very well made piece that just happens to have the #$%^ hole it the side.
My 24 is a late model also with the hole and it had .428 throats from the factory, which are now .431 as well thanks to the Manson reamer. If these two S&W's are any indication, they have tightened the cyl's up a bit too much for us cast boolit guys but we have Doug Guy to help with that. The 24 is one of the last of the nickel guns and my son has laid claim to it, so I guess it has a home whether it shoots or not. As for myself, the jury is still out as far as the EDM rifling on the newer guns. Both of mine seem to prefer gas checked boolits, which is a bit of a PITA for me anyway but it's better than them not liking anything.243762243763

BTW, you can buy pin gages from Meyer Gage co for reasonable, like about $2.50 a piece and I usually get 2 sizes under what I think the optimal size should be and one spot on then 2 sizes over. I dont recall exactly but for less than $15 will get them to your door and they are handy for us wheel gun guys.

[murf205]

Well, I have one in transit to my FFL. I didn't get the steal that skeettx did but I wanted a 4" and they seem to be a little harder to find so I had to pony up a little more. Some of the prices listed on Gunbroker looked comical to me until I saw that they were actually selling those guns. I'll pin guage the throats first to see what I have. It is a non pinned gun so, from what I gather here, it has the throat deal fixed. Big throats or not, I'm very pleased to own a non Hillary hole 45 S&W. We will see. I'll post my findings.243800[ATTACH=CONFIG]243801[/ATTACH

Here are the pics that the seller sent.

[BigAlofPa.]

My 25-5 is from 1980. I couldn't get my calipers in to check the throat. It seams to shoot .452 cast fine though. I am curious though what it mics at.243806

[murf205]

if it shoots .452 boolits fine with no leading, then you have got it right. Beautiful gun BigAl.

[6bg6ga]

Got an old 25-5 off gunbroker
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/814171115
took it out and shot it today with light loads
What fun, what fun
I had loaded a bunch of ammo using the 200 grain 45ACP semi-wad bullet
It just keep eating the center out of the small rifle target.
Never measured the guns holes, and probably never will as it shot well.
Mike

That is the way mine is. Its hard to get a bad target.

[6bg6ga]

My 25-5 is from 1980. I couldn't get my calipers in to check the throat. It seams to shoot .452 cast fine though. I am curious though what it mics at.243806

If it shoots good what difference does it make?

[murf205]

BigAl, calipers are pretty iffy when trying to measure throats. I found that I was getting a different measurement with the different ways I was holding the calipers. I promise I do not work for the pin gauge manufactures but they are the best way that I have found to find out the dimensions of the throats.

[murf205]

My new 45 S&W arrived today. Here are the pics after I cleaned it up. On the inside of the grips, it has stamped Aug 31 1988. No barrel pin and the throats are-3 at .451 and 3 at a snug .452. I have a Lyman sizer marked .450 that measures a snitch over .451 so I'm goint to size my 252 gr Lee boolits to that size.243908243909
Here are the picks since I cleaned it and without the trigger lock.

[skeettx]

Nice, thank you for sharing
Mike

[BigAlofPa.]

Thanks guys.

[Groo]

Groo here
Carried a 25 at the SO for several years.
The most accurate lead load was the speer blazer 255 gr 45 colt alumium case ..
found a fired bullet one day and "Shzam" it was a hollow base.

[DougGuy]

My new 45 S&W arrived today. Here are the pics after I cleaned it up. On the inside of the grips, it has stamped Aug 31 1988. No barrel pin and the throats are-3 at .451 and 3 at a snug .452.

Ouch that's just enough to cause it to shoot to each throat's POI. I would hone those even with the largest one, will group much better.

More important than the actual size of the throats, is how close they are to each other. You can always size to fit the throats, near impossible to size to uneven throats.

[scattershot]

I have one of the older Smiths with the large throats. .455-.456 as I recall. I find that loading swaged .454 bullets works well. There are ways around the large throat issue, so if you like the gun, buy it.

[DougGuy]

Is there a consensus about the best size for throats? EG, would my .5012 throat prefer a .5015 or is .0501 better?

I fired some coated .5015's yesterday to see how the coating works, got no leading.

I had typed a response but deleted it so as to not steer this thread.

[DougGuy]

Okay. I thought this is about throats.

It is about S&W model 25 throats rather than throats in general. Posters are chronicling the timeline of model 25s and large throat sizes.

[BigAlofPa.]

Well it turns out i am getting some lead in the forcing cone. I ran a full box of 50 rounds of cast loads today though. I have it soaking with a patch saturated with Ed's red now.

[murf205]

Ouch that's just enough to cause it to shoot to each throat's POI. I would hone those even with the largest one, will group much better.

More important than the actual size of the throats, is how close they are to each other. You can always size to fit the throats, near impossible to size to uneven throats.

Right you are , but I'm going to shoot it with boolits pc'd and sized to .451 which are really .451+, and if it doesnt shoot like I think it should, you will be the next one to see it.