Red Willow Armory Ballard

[Mac118]

I've got my eye on a Red Willow Armory Ballard for sale locally. Caliber 40-65. I know this company has been reborn a few times since the 90s but the quality of this rifle looks really good. Nice case coloring, double set triggers and tight lockup and looks like it was hardly ever used. My question is whether this is exclusively intended for black powder? Or were these made to specs that can tolerate modern smokeless powder? As always, thanks for any information that can be provided. Steve

[Chill Wills]

Nice find!
I don't think there is one single answer about smokeless in weaker actions.
As always, "The devil is in the details".

There is always an example of a crazy small smokeless powder charge to be argued can be safe.

I know of no published data for Ballards of any era.

[kootne]

Red willow receivers were machined from 11L17, not as tough as the later Ballard Rifle and Cartridge receivers of 8620 but should be good for loads with BP equivalent pressures. Big limit on Ballard is design, they won't take high pressures. Properly fitted breechblocks are also a requirement.

[Mac118]

I can find very little about these rifles online. And nothing in any of the forums about performance, reliability etc. Anyone have any experience with these and can testify on quality and reliability?

[marlinman93]

The Red Willow Ballards were the first reincarnation of the original Marlin Ballard rifles. The quality on most is very good, but not as good as those built in Cody, Wy. by Ballard Rifle Co. There have been occasional Red Willows found that don't match up to the usual great quality, so make your decision based on a close examination of fit and finish.
The Red Willow also wasn't as exacting a copy of the originals as the later Coy Ballard, so not the parts interchangeability of a Cody to the original Marlins. I haven't heard of any breaking or issues with strength. But as mentioned they are a different steel, but still a good steel.
I personally wouldn't have any issue shooting smokeless in it if you don't hotrod your loads. They're still better steel than the originals, and they get shot with smokeless all the time.

[oldred]

Red willow receivers were machined from 11L17, not as tough as the later Ballard Rifle and Cartridge receivers of 8620 but should be good for loads with BP equivalent pressures. Big limit on Ballard is design, they won't take high pressures. Properly fitted breechblocks are also a requirement.

From 11L17 to 8620 is a HUGE improvement! 11L17 is of course 1117 with Lead added to it to improve machinability but either version, while decent material, is not nearly as strong as 8620 for a rifle receiver, I am surprised any outfit would use 1117 for a receiver never mind the Leaded version.

[Mac118]

All good stuff to hear. I'm still on the fence with this and have time to think about it. Anyone have any personal experience with a Red Willow Ballard?

[uscra112]

11L17 would probably be about the same yield strength as the steel that was used for Marlin's forged receivers. Remember that making steel in large lots and at a low prices was in the 1880s an art that was only just out of short pants. 8620 seems to me to overkill for what will still be a weak action. No Ballard can ever be as strong as, say, a High Wall or a Borchardt, no matter what steel is used. The thrust shoulder area is small, and the thrust vector is way higher than the shoulder. That puts a lot of bending stress on the breechblock, and there ain't an awful lot of metal there to resist it.

[Bigslug]

Like Marliman says, you can run smokeless, just keep it mild.

However, you've got a black powder action design, shooting a cartridge that was intended for a full case of black. A workable smokeless load is going to give you a lot of empty space, probably less consistent ignition, less consistent barrel time, and a little less accuracy because of it. Black powder is a pain in the butt for repeaters, revolvers, and the like. The single shots don't have as many nooks and crannies to contend with, and Hodgdon's Triple 7 is a pretty good, easily cleaned substitute. Rubbing alcohol instead of Hoppe's, oil as usual afterwards, and you're golden.

In the case of a Ballard - any Ballard - shooting a classic big volume BPCR cartridge, the original family of propellants is really where "home" is. If you want to run smokeless as your primary, and have some flexibility doing it, a Highwall is probably your baby.

[oldred]

11L17 would probably be about the same yield strength as the steel that was used for Marlin's forged receivers. Remember that making steel in large lots and at a low prices was in the 1880s an art that was only just out of short pants. 8620 seems to me to overkill for what will still be a weak action. No Ballard can ever be as strong as, say, a High Wall or a Borchardt, no matter what steel is used. The thrust shoulder area is small, and the thrust vector is way higher than the shoulder. That puts a lot of bending stress on the breechblock, and there ain't an awful lot of metal there to resist it.

All that is true but still 8620 is a lot stronger in all respects thus using 11L17 results in making a weak design even weaker vs the same design made from the stronger alloy! I assume your point is that using the stronger material will not compensate for the weak design enough to make using anything except light smokeless loads safe and I would 100% agree with that but still by using the 8620 there will be a greater safety margin.

[marlinman93]

Like Marliman says, you can run smokeless, just keep it mild.

However, you've got a black powder action design, shooting a cartridge that was intended for a full case of black. A workable smokeless load is going to give you a lot of empty space, probably less consistent ignition, less consistent barrel time, and a little less accuracy because of it.

I have a Ballard that was rebarreled to .40-65 W. and it's an original forged action. I feed it with 4198 and a 350 gr. bullet. It will shoot 1"-1.5" groups at 100 yds., and is very consistent accuracy out to 1,000 yds. My load chronographs at around 1350 fps, and it very comfortable to shoot. No issues with inconsistency in ignition that I can see? And obviously no accuracy issues with smokeless.
But all 36 of my original Ballards get fired with smokeless loads.

[gnoahhh]

All that is true but still 8620 is a lot stronger in all respects thus using 11L17 results in making a weak design even weaker vs the same design made from the stronger alloy! I assume your point is that using the stronger material will not compensate for the weak design enough to make using anything except light smokeless loads safe and I would 100% agree with that but still by using the 8620 there will be a greater safety margin.

And I agree with you both. But, how much of a safety margin is it, how is it measured, and how does that apply to Joe Blow Shooter who needs to know what his parameters are? Best to err on the side of caution regardless of the steel it's made of.

[oldred]

Best to err on the side of caution regardless of the steel it's made of.

For sure and regardless of the steel used any smokeless loads should be moderate, while the 8620 version would undoubtedly be somewhat stronger than an 11L17 receiver that might make for a bit more comfortable safety margin but it still would not allow for heavier loading!

[marlinman93]

Most people don't buy Ballard rifles to "hotrod" them. Used to be a lot of High Walls that got rebarreled and hotrodded, and they held up quite nicely. I owned a few in pretty hot calibers, but bought them to rebarrel. I did fire them just to see how they worked prior to rebarreling, and they were great.
Ballard owners have known for a long time the action isn't among the strongest of the old single shots. But they were strong enough for calibers like .45-120, .45-110, .45-100, .44-100, etc. and still did just fine. My .44-100 #7 has been shooting fine since 1875, and hopefully will continue to for many decades.

[uscra112]

There was a time, though. I've got a cast Ballard built by Sedgley that's chambered for.........(wait for it).......... the .22-3000 Lovell. A little cartridge that some guys were loading to 50,000 psi back in the heyday. Needless to say I don't shoot it.

[john.k]

Wernt the angle eject Winchester 94s made of 11L17?...........

[uscra112]

For sure and regardless of the steel used any smokeless loads should be moderate, while the 8620 version would undoubtedly be somewhat stronger than an 11L17 receiver that might make for a bit more comfortable safety margin but it still would not allow for heavier loading!

FWIW I looked 'em up. 8620 has a yield strength about 37% greater than 11L17, so there's that. Less chance of stretching a receiver. Ultimate tensile is only about 23% greater, though. Not enough IMHO to make the action proof against inadvertent double charges of smokeless. FWIW I wouldn't turn down an action of 11L17. Machined from solid it'll have more and better metal in it than a cast receiver, that's for sure!

[uscra112]

Wernt the angle eject Winchester 94s made of 11L17?...........

Could be. Handbook says 11L17 is good for shock and vibration loads.

[Mac118]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Thank you all for the feedback. I still haven't decided if I'll procure this Ballrad or not.

[country gent]

From a manufacturing stand point the 10LXX series machines easier and faster with less tool wear. Its also easier to get good finishes right from the machine saving polishing time and fitting This saves on production costs

[Green Frog]

Like Marliman says, you can run smokeless, just keep it mild.

However, you've got a black powder action design, shooting a cartridge that was intended for a full case of black. A workable smokeless load is going to give you a lot of empty space, probably less consistent ignition, less consistent barrel time, and a little less accuracy because of it. Black powder is a pain in the butt for repeaters, revolvers, and the like. The single shots don't have as many nooks and crannies to contend with, and Hodgdon's Triple 7 is a pretty good, easily cleaned substitute. Rubbing alcohol instead of Hoppe's, oil as usual afterwards, and you're golden.

In the case of a Ballard - any Ballard - shooting a classic big volume BPCR cartridge, the original family of propellants is really where "home" is. If you want to run smokeless as your primary, and have some flexibility doing it, a Highwall is probably your baby.

I’d like to weigh in here on this gun and this specific issue... powder and cleaning. I felt the same way as Bigslug prior to joining the North-South Skirmish Association. Now two things have changed. First, I won’t use anything but actual black powder rather than any BP substitutes, all of which are just as likely to cause fouling and corrosion with insufficient cleaning. Second, cleaning after shooting BP is actually pretty easy, especially with a single shot like the Ballard. A mix of soap and water or one of the mixtures of soaps and alcohol (I favor a mix of isopropyl, peroxide and Murphy’s Oil Soap in equal proportions) repeated a day or two later and followed by a good oiling and you should never have a problem.

Finally, a comment on the chambering... the 40-65 is a sort of modernized update on the old BP cartridges of a century plus ago. It has been designed and tested to be good for modern BP games like Silhouette, and that’s what I would plan to use it for. Others, not so much. JMHO, YMMV! ;-)

Froggie

[John in PA]

Some thoughts:
Mac, if you like the Red Willow Ballard's configuration, want to work with the caliber and cartridge, and the price is attractive, just buy it. I've had one of the Red Willow Ballard Pacific models since new. .45-70 caliber. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot any black powder equivalent load of smokeless in that gun. NO HOT ROD LOADS. Review Lyman's cast bullet handbook and other BPCR books of good repute. Follow any load data rated for Trapdoor Springfield pressures and you will *safely* get a lifetime of enjoyment out of the rifle.

Regarding Froggie's comments about the ease of shooting black, I'd agree wholeheartedly about the ease of cleaning the gun. I also shoot N-SSA (3rd US Reg Infantry)

I would depart from his comments and say that in addition to cleaning the gun, you must also clean the BRASS if you load BP. Drop used cartridges directly in a plastic container with a good slug of white vinegar to neutralize BP fouling and then you can attack this task whenever you choose within the next several days. Get one of the modern Pope-style re-/de-capper tools, pop primers out and scrape pockets, then scrub or ultrasound-clean your brass with mildly acidic solution and a bit of detergent to remove any leftover bullet lube. Dry, tumble if you like shiny, but stained brass shoots every bit as well as shiny, and saves time .

Finally, if you DO decide to shoot BP, the extra money spent on Swiss or Old Eynesford is well worth it. Much cleaner and more consistent burning than other brands, and barrel fouling remains softer. You can often shoot a decent shot string in a breechloader without more than a blow tube between shots (though match grade accuracy usually demands some form of wiping at high levels of competition) Loading BPCR is an art all its own. Lots of recipes for wad columns, lube recipes, loading styles, breech seat vs fixed ammo. Tons of fun and experimentation to play with if your a bullet caster and handloader! Have at it!! ;-)

[marlinman93]

Shooting BP might not be hard, but nobody can convince me it's easier than smokeless. Doesn't matter if it's during the shooting process, afterwards cleaning, or cleaning brass.
Can't shoot all day, or all weekend with BP and not have to stop and clean at some point. And if you're smart you'll clean at the end of the day, and again the next day to prevent after rust. Seen more than one bore ruined because the shooter cleaned it and never went back the next day to check and give it another cleaning.
And seen brass ruined from not thoroughly cleaning, or waiting too long before cleaning. It's just a fact that BP needs more cleaning, and more careful cleaning.
But it is extremely accurate if the shooter knows what he's doing, and does everything correctly. Smokeless takes less maintenance, and less work, but also isn't quite as accurate in old style guns. But that really depends on the shooter and his loading with either propellant.

[Mac118]

Thanks for the additional comments. I'm still circling the airport on this while I gather funds. Seller isn't in a hurry so I have time.