Lacquer

[oldred]

Didn't want to hijack the Tru-oil thread so I started another one about finishes. Does anyone else use Lacquer for stock finishing? I use the stuff with really good results and it's the easiest and fastest to use by a wide margin! It dries way quicker than ANYTHING else out there (Tru-oil and some other similar finishes need days between coats to properly prevent die-back), Lacquer can be sanded and re-coated in an hour or less after application. It can be obtained in high gloss, semi-gloss or satin and it is extremely easy to touch up, just a light sanding with fine grit paper or 0000 steel wool and touch up coats will melt into the old finish blending in perfectly. It has been as durable as anything I have ever used and some of my guns have had this type of finish for over thirty years without problems. I was just curious if anyone else uses Lacquer because most every time I mention what I use it gets negative feedback and I start hearing all these stories of it peeling off and/or turning yellow or some other problem that I seem to have avoided without any special precaution, Lacquer can quickly and easily go on as high gloss or a satin that mimics an oil finish or anything in between.

[Bazoo]

I use lacquer for furniture. What you say about ease of application vs results is why it's used in the furniture industry. The reason it's not widely used in firearms is because it won't hold up to any abuse. Expansion and contraction will cause it to crack. It's not as resistant to water as other finishes. You probably treat your firearms well, that's why lacquer holds up well for you.

[Winger Ed.]

It's fast, easy to use, and looks good.

The only drawbacks I've found with it is that its not very chip resistant, and harsh solvents will melt it.

[oldracer]

I have a muzzle loader with clear hi gloss lacquer, the builder said 20 coats with 95% sanded off after each coat. I tried that finish on 4 slug guns I assembled over the past 4 years. I used 20 to 25 coats (lost count) sanded to the wood for the first dozen coats then lighter sanding so eventually got a very glossy finish. It took me 6 weeks to do the finish and then let it sit for another month otherwise the finish will get the imprint of the foam in the gun case! In that case a good sanding with 600 wet paper and then another coat sprayed on.
John

[RED BEAR]

I just don't like a gloss on my guns. I made the mistake of using lacquer upstairs in my house unfortunately thats where the heat pump gets its air whole house smelled to high heaven. I use poly up there all the time. But yes i have used lacquer on guns and no problems. I like to use the satin and after the final coat go over it with some wet dry 2000 grit just to give it a really matt finish then polish with Johnson's wax. The results look pretty good.

[oldred]

Chipping off is the warning I hear the most but I have yet to see this problem even after an occasional ding or two??? As far as using 25 to 30+ coats of the stuff that's just flat out doing it wrong! That one is a hold-over from the old 50's and 60's show car paint jobs where owners were trying for a deep glass-like finish with high gloss similar to the clear coat finishes we get today, applied like that it would most certainly chip easily, on metal car bodies anyway. The way to apply the stuff (like most other finishes) is to simply use thin coats so as to allow the solvents to flash off between coats, this happens in an hour or less with lacquer while some oil based finishes can take days to properly dry (I hate waiting that long between coats! :mad:). If a finish like Tru-Oil, for instance, is not given a couple of days to completely dry it may look good at first but as time passes it will dull out as the underlying coats lose solvents and shrink causing the dryer top coats to micro-wrinkle as they are forced to shrink back with the coats underneath them, this is known as "die-back". I am not trying to say Lacquer is a better finish just that it does well when properly applied. As I said I have guns that I used lacquer on thirty years ago (T/C Hawkin, 1895 Marlin, etc) and I still have none of the problems I so often get warned about. I think the old myth, and it is a MYTH based on old time show car painting methods, that lacquer should be applied using a huge number of coats is the root of the problems we hear about.


A bit off the lacquer topic but another thing I experimented with was automotive clear. I have spent years doing auto body repair and painting (still do!) so it was a natural to be curious about how the modern clear coat Urethanes would work on gun stocks. Well in short I couldn't get any of them to work well at all, mostly adhesion problems, and this was with top PPG, etc clears that cost upwards of $300+ a gallon. If anyone should be curious and want to try automotive clear then the cheapest Dupont clear (the Nason line) worked the best but it wasn't durable at all. Neat stuff otherwise as a REALLY nice looking finish could be applied in less than 3 hours but I could never solve the poor adhesion problems.

[RED BEAR]

No i have never had a problem with chipping. Its the smell i can't take. Have used it outside anyway. Seemed to work well enough. I use it if in a hurry .if time is not a problem i still go with an oil rubbed in never tried tru oil usually just linseed oil.

[15meter]

I've used gel type varnish my self with great results. 3 coats in a day 6-9 coats total. Exceptionally good looking finish that is very durable. Used on my Mahogany veneer dining room table 20+ years ago and it still looks great. On the gun stocks I have done, I suspect it is multiple generations of use before it needs anything done to it.

Bartley's is the brand I've used the most, tried several others, just not as good. I need to order up a quart, just hope they are still in business, it's been probably 4 years. On gun stocks a quart lasts a long time.

[oldred]

I've used gel type varnish my self with great results.

The "Spar" varnishes are one of, if not THE, most weather proof finish a person can apply to wood, this stuff is used on boats! Varnish is another finish I like and in fact it's a toss up when it comes to choice between it or the lacquer. The main reason I use lacquer is that it sprays so well, even lacquer in the spray "rattle" cans works quiet well although I spray it with a good quality HVLP paint gun.



Its the smell i can't take

LOL, I think that's why old bodyshop workers like lacquer, not so much the smell as the "Buzz" they get from it! :2 drunk buddies:

[oldred]

Just for the record I agree that traditional oil finishes and products like Tru-Oil are best and I'm not arguing that lacquer would be a better finish. My point is that lacquer can be a good alternative that looks great and is super fast to apply, the post was just out of curiosity about whether or not lacquer is commonly used?

[porthos]

Tru-Oil is not a oil finish. it acts and dries like a varnish a real oil finish is LINSEED OIL. it takes well over a month for a proper oil finish; and it is still a poor finish for a rifle stock. as stated above ; if you are not going to use one of the synthetic finishes; marine spar varnish might be one of the best. had a stock maker(donnie gems) tell me that its not what you use, but, how you use it.

[MrWolf]

Used to work at a paint manufacturer for pleasure boats. Tried the marine varnish on some moulding. I couldn't believe how deep the finish looked. Yup that stuff is expensive.

[15meter]

The reason I use the gel varnish is I can put a coat on and go on about my work in the shop without worrying about raising any dust to get in the finish while it is drying. Even with lacquer, you can get dust in it in the first 10-15 minutes. And my shop is pretty dusty. Just never put in a dust collection system.

I use a lot of Spar varnish on stuff that will be outdoors for extended periods of time:
243324
This beast will have 4 coats of West system epoxy topped with 4 coats of marine varnish for the UV protection. It has the potential to sit on the ice for 1-3 months depending on the winter (look at the avatar).

I don't think I need the UV protection on rifle stocks or I probably would use the spar varnish.

And I suspect if you checked TruOil's MSDS it would probably read just like an interior varnish MSDS.

I've also used boiled linseed oil for finishing, much faster than straight linseed oil, but still takes awhile.

[RED BEAR]

Old red i agree i said that i have used lacquer when in a hurry. It worked ok for me. The last one i hand rubbed took over a year. Get the stock out every 3 or 4 days to a week and rub a coat in turned out great people keep asking how i got the wood to look that way. A whole lot of work.

[C-dubb]

I have sprayed pre catalyzed lacquer on my cabinets and furniture for years and even have used it on my oak staircase. If it will hold up to me and my dogs using those stairs, it will surely do well on any gun stock.

[uscra112]

Tru-Oil is not a oil finish. it acts and dries like a varnish a real oil finish is LINSEED OIL. it takes well over a month for a proper oil finish; and it is still a poor finish for a rifle stock. as stated above ; if you are not going to use one of the synthetic finishes; marine spar varnish might be one of the best. had a stock maker(donnie gems) tell me that its not what you use, but, how you use it.

Oil is such a poor finish that it was almost universal before synthetics showed up.

Stevens used to charge extra for varnish if you sent in a gun to be refinished.

I've used gallons of lacquer (as airplane dope) in my lifetime. Wouldn't use it on a gun.

[Shawlerbrook]

Doesn’t lacquer have to be sprayed on ? Used the rub on matte urethane on an old Mosin and it came out pretty good and has held up.

[nekshot]

I found the clear coat for mag wheels to be good in the matte version.

[bedbugbilly]

When I had my custom woodworking/millwork shop, I used lacquer almost exclusively. No need for me to re-state what's already been said. When I made custom furniture for others, sometimes the husband would ask about refinishing gunstocks, etc. and I often had guys come by and want to know if I woud refinish their stocks. I told the that if they would strip them and get them ready, I'd spray them and they were always pleased with the results.

In the cabinet industry, lacquer is used but usually in conjunction with a "toner" - i.e. the lacquer also contains a staining component. The reason for this is that no two pieces of wood (in the cabinet industry usually hardwood) so the "toner" is used to blend the color shades so that they are equal. Red Oak is a perfect example - different pieces of wood, different densities, different stain absorption - so toner is used to make sure all the cabinets are the same shade.

Not necessary on a gunstock but I often stained gunstocks - good example - a walnut stock. Stripped and sanded and finished natural just didn't cut it for the owner. So . . . make sure that if you stan first, it is completely dry and make sure the stain is rubbed in - not just wiped on as lacquer will make it 'run" if there is a build up.

It is my believe that lacquer has been used on a lot of more cheaply produced "production guns" such as those that have used birch or similar species. Birch stains "cloudy" - just like tulip, polar, etc. so spraying those stocks with a toner lacquer allows for blending the shade so it is equal and because the lacquer dries so quickly, the toner shade does not have the opportunity to absorb and creat the "muddy" look.

Durability of lacquer? I never had an issue with any of my stocks nor did I ever have anyone coe back with their stocks that I finished for them. BUT . . . some folks "hunt harder than others" . . . i.e. there's a big difference between hunting in a woods and hunting in brush where a stock can take a pretty good beating. Fortunately, lacquer is an easy finish to sand down and repair with a little work and a couple of new coats. However, a build up of many coats, will, IMHO, create a more fragile finish.

I read the Tru-oil thread - I've never used the product so can't speak to it. On many of my custom built muzzleloading rifles, I just preferred to use a more traditional finish. I often used a traditional staining method on a maple stock and then I used a traditional BLO finish. For a build linseed oil finish, I always took a small container/bottle and mixed equal parts of the BLO with equal part of "real" turpentine. (Not the artificial turpentine that can be found on shelves today). It took time, but repeated coatings rubbed in well will eventually build up and create a durable finish - when used in the field and scratches occurred, it took very little effort to rub in a new coat or two fo the BLO mixture to keep the stock looking good.

Everybody has different "likes" when it comes to products and how their stocks look and their really is not right or wrong - a lot of things to try and experiment with. With the lacquer that I applied to stocks that guys would bring in to my shop, some wanted glossy, some wanted semi glosss and some wanted a matte finish. The one thing i will say about lacquer is that you need to be aware of how humidity conditions can affect it. Just like a car finished with a lacquer color coat, with clear, you can also get "orange peel". Lacquer is a quick drying finish and I often had to blend it and add retarder to it based on the humidity conditions at the time. I used gallons of it and my suppler was an auto finish company - this was many years ago but at the time, I could buy a gallon of lacquer (gloss, semi, etc.) for about $10.00 a gallon from the auto supplier - a gallon of lacquer from a woodworking supply place was running about $30.00 a gallon. The salesman from the auto super brought a factory rep to my shop one day as he wanted him to see what I was doing. In talking with the rep, I mentioned the differences in price from an auto supplier and a specialized woodworking supplier and he just smiled and laughed and said, "the only difference is the label on the can". The EPA was getting on shops that used lacquer and they came out with a "water based" lacquer. The rep gave me a couple of gallons to try - it was terrible - they soon dropped it form their line.

As far as having to be sprayed - I have tried rubbing lacquer in and have always gone back to spraying. Some may have luck with it. I once had a book that belonged to my Dad and it was on the maintenance of a Model T Ford - he was of the era that he had a number of the Model Ts when he was young. In the section on maintaining the finish of the car - and remember, you could get it in any color you wanted as long as it was black - it gave instructions on how to remove and repair the original finish if you needed to. Their instructions stated to buy a quart of "good black automobile lacquer", make sure the area was clean and then burst a coat of the black lacquer on, using even brush strokes going in the same direction. Once dry, the second coat was to be brushed on, but going in a direction at a right angle to the first coat's brush strokes.

If you decide to try brushing a coat of lacquer on a gun stock, spend the money for a high quality brush and I would follow the directions above - a coat in one direction, rub out and then apply in a direction at a right angle to the previous coat. Lacquer dries quickly so apply and don't go back and try to "brush out" - it won't end well.

And it goes without saying . . . but using any of the oil finishes, lacquers, etc. and related solvents . . . do to leave your rags laying around. Spontaneousl combustion can occur quickly. Clean up, dispose of your rags, etc. in a safe manner and don't say, "I'll clean up later" - you might regret it.

[oldred]

Doesn’t lacquer have to be sprayed on ? Used the rub on matte urethane on an old Mosin and it came out pretty good and has held up.

No it can be brushed on and often is, I normally spray it because it is easier and quicker and dries quite a bit faster. On a dry day when the temperature is above 70 deg or so a sprayed coat of lacquer can dry to sanding in less than a half hour and can be re-coated at any time or stage of drying. Dust, runs or other flaws? No problem just allow it to dry a short time (runs can take a while but if applied in thin coats shouldn't happen anyway) and sand away the flaw then spot spray the area. After the desired number of coats sand lightly with 400 grit or 0000 steel wool to remove any flaws or orange peel then rub out with compound and it will rival the appearance of any Urethane finish, from flat or satin to high gloss and anything in between. It's a great choice, or seems to be to me anyway, if a person wants to finish a stock in one afternoon and in the thirty years I have been using the stuff I have yet to encounter any of the negatives some folks warn about, however I don't take my guns out in the rain or carry them loose behind the seat in my truck. :mrgreen:

Just another note, I mentioned 0000 steel wool and while I do use it for finial smoothing before rubbing out the finish I do not recommend using it between coats and never on bare wood. Some folks do and can get good results but for me it seemed I could always manage to get some of that "wool dust" in the finish no matter how much I tried to avoid it, using it on bare wood almost always resulted in those little "friskers" getting stuck in the wood pores/grain and showing up in the finish. Basically I won't use steel wool until the last coat has been applied.

[GregLaROCHE]

I use lacquer for furniture. What you say about ease of application vs results is why it's used in the furniture industry. The reason it's not widely used in firearms is because it won't hold up to any abuse. Expansion and contraction will cause it to crack. It's not as resistant to water as other finishes. You probably treat your firearms well, that's why lacquer holds up well for you.

I agree with all the above. Lacquer isn’t a tough finish. I think most industrial furniture produced today is coated with polyethylene. If you’re just planning to use the gun as a wall hanger it should serve well, but any exposure to water it will become opaque.

[oldred]

If you’re just planning to use the gun as a wall hanger it should serve well, but any exposure to water it will become opaque.


It's not that bad! For thirty years, as I have pointed out already, I have used this stuff and my guns (especially the Marlins) were anything but "wall hangers". I don't abuse my guns but I don't do the white glove thing either, I handle and use them just as most other folks do and the finish looks just fine. As far as becoming opaque I have never seen that happen either except when a piece of lacquered furniture, such as a table, was left wet but simple humidity won't do it and nether will rain as long as it's wiped off in a reasonable amount of time. The fact is if a firearm is exposed to enough moisture to cause the finish to become opaque then the finish changing is going to be the least of the problems unless the gun is made of stainless!

[Stephen Cohen]

As a young apprentice cabinet maker I was shown how to repair scratches in laminex using hair spray. I have sprayed a few rifle stocks with hair spray over the years and all have stood up quiet well, but I do try and treat my rifles kindly and repair any scratches pronto. Regards Stephen

[C-dubb]

Catalyzed lacquer will usually hold up better than poly and can be refinished if necessary.
Poly is more of a plastic and when it needs refinishing almost nothing will cut it.
I have built custom furniture for 40 years and there is no way I would allow polyurethane into my shop.

[pcmacd]

Catalyzed lacquer will usually hold up better than poly and can be refinished if necessary.
Poly is more of a plastic and when it needs refinishing almost nothing will cut it.
I have built custom furniture for 40 years and there is no way I would allow polyurethane into my shop.

Around 1968 my dad put an antique oak table together from a top and a pedestal from a different table.

He stripped it, sanded, stained it, and gave it several coats of Varathane full gloss, the real deal urethane finish, and the only one available that I was aware of at that time.

That table stands today in the same kitchen. It has been subjected to all manner of abuse and the finish looks like the day it was applied.

.... not that I would want that on a rifle stock?

:-]

[Tokarev]

There are polyurethane gels that you can brush on and when they cure, they become solvent-proof.
This web page is my polyurethane bible: https://plasticworld.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_42