Another .500 Smith Saga

[Dieselhorses]

So where do I start? I have been reloading, shooting, reloading, shooting the 500 for a few years now with no problems. Matter of fact, I've gotten great results with 4 different powders so far. YESTERDAY, drive to a friends house to test some work ups with Unique, once again- no problem (other than it sounded like a cap gun).

Brought a long a bag full of "tried, tested and trusted" loads I loaded with IMR-4227 (31.5 gr's) and 440 GC'd, Pc'd LCSWC. We decided to drive to a few fields in back to see if we roust up some pigs. Went to drop some rounds in cylinder-did not fit! Went a third of the way in! I immediately started troubleshooting my "mental memory" of what did I do wrong? I cast from favorite alloy (17 BHN), powder coated once with Eastwood, sized/GC'd, charged, seated, crimped. (Using Sage's Outdoors checks).

Possible causes:

Waited too long to size and check after casting?
First time using "CBC" .500 cases?


I tried some other rounds in cylinder I loaded exactly same way from a year or so and no problems chambering.
Question: Can I resize loaded rounds through sizing die with de-capping pin out and re-crimp? Or should I ditch the whole operation and pull em all?

[BigAlofPa.]

When i have chambering issues. A Lee factory crimp die. Usually takes care of it. I learned that lesson on some tight chambered 9mm.

[Dieselhorses]

When i have chambering issues. A Lee factory crimp die. Usually takes care of it. I learned that lesson on some tight chambered 9mm.

Going to try that (if they even make one for the 500). I watched Fortunecookie45LC from YouTube do this with some 38 WC's.

[Dieselhorses]

When you mentioned "it will squeeze down the case and then you won't have any neck tension after the brass springs back and your boolits will be too small." - will not re-crimping solve this?

Also "using the boolits soon after sizing and lubing" do you mean loading them up soon after? Thanks for your response.

[Rick B]

Bullets sized to .501 and loaded in CBC cases will not fit in the 500 I shoot either. Starline or Hornady cases work fine. Gave the loaded CBC cases to a friend who shot them in his Encore.
Rick

[BigAlofPa.]

I checked lee's site they say to use this.
https://leeprecision.com/custom-500-s-w-collet-style-crimp-die.html

[DougGuy]

When you mentioned "it will squeeze down the case and then you won't have any neck tension after the brass springs back and your boolits will be too small." - will not re-crimping solve this?

Also "using the boolits soon after sizing and lubing" do you mean loading them up soon after? Thanks for your response.

You need both neck tension and crimp for proper ignition.

I mean loading the ammo and then shooting it soon after.

When I first started reaming cylinders, I did my SBH to a snug fit for the .432" boolits I had loaded. After about 3 months, half of them wouldn't seat fully in the cylinder.. Now I always try and get half thou to a full thou over the suggested boolit diameter just to have some wiggle room.

You can do this yourself, size some of your boolits normally, load them, and use them within a month or two or three. Meanwhile, leave some of the same batch sitting on the shelf and document how much they grow. Depending on the antimony in the mix, they will gain diameter just sitting as they age harden. You may get 3 different measurements at one month, 6 months, 1year.

It seems like the heavies in 480 and 500 are quite long, and if what I think is correct, there is a length to diameter ratio that once a boolit hits a certain length, it grows exponentially larger in diameter than a shorter boolit would.

[Dieselhorses]

You need both neck tension and crimp for proper ignition.

I mean loading the ammo and then shooting it soon after.

When I first started reaming cylinders, I did my SBH to a snug fit for the .432" boolits I had loaded. After about 3 months, half of them wouldn't seat fully in the cylinder.. Now I always try and get half thou to a full thou over the suggested boolit diameter just to have some wiggle room.

You can do this yourself, size some of your boolits normally, load them, and use them within a month or two or three. Meanwhile, leave some of the same batch sitting on the shelf and document how much they grow. Depending on the antimony in the mix, they will gain diameter just sitting as they age harden. You may get 3 different measurements at one month, 6 months, 1year.

It seems like the heavies in 480 and 500 are quite long, and if what I think is correct, there is a length to diameter ratio that once a boolit hits a certain length, it grows exponentially larger in diameter than a shorter boolit would.

Well I reckon that blows my "apocalyptic stash plan" out the water! LOL Guess I'll have to resort to J words if I wanna store anything. But as "RickB" mentioned, I haven't had any problems with Starline or Hornady cases.

[Dieselhorses]

Bullets sized to .501 and loaded in CBC cases will not fit in the 500 I shoot either. Starline or Hornady cases work fine. Gave the loaded CBC cases to a friend who shot them in his Encore.
Rick

Only other head stamp I have is "AUSA". Ever have any problems with these? And have you ever tried jacked bullets in the CBC cases?

[Gatch]

I normally put a few randomloaded round through a case gauge as I'm going. Maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 50. More for match ammo.

[Dieselhorses]

I normally put a few randomloaded round through a case gauge as I'm going. Maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 50. More for match ammo.

And that is exactly what I should have done. Never go to Africa on a safari without FIRST chambering EVERY cartridge!

[RED BEAR]

I actually did try this. Didn't work for me they went in fine but very inaccurate. Above post about under sizing bullets it right on the mark as best as i could tell.

[Mitch]

Some good info here thanks for posting this.I will try and stay away from the CBC cases

[Rick B]

Just measured the neck wall thickness on a 2005 lot of Hornady 500 Brass. With a Mitutoya Ball Micrometer necks on the Hornady cases run .013 to .0135. Starline mixed lot Range pickup average .013 to .015. I suspect the CBC cases are even thicker.
Rick

[Petander]

Thank you for this thread!

I'm planning to get back to 500, had one since they came out in 2003 but sold it a few years back. One reason getting back is coating,another is I got several hundred once fired CBC brass from a gunsmith friend... I've been coating my old hard bullets now, have hundreds and boy,they have grown to 504...

I remember having fit issues because of brass stretch. I used Starline only. Now I need to re-think CBC... and get a strong push through sizer for a strong press. Lubrisizers with a .500 die won't handle these...

Diesel,did you pull a bullet to confirm size?

[Dieselhorses]

Thank you for this thread!

I'm planning to get back to 500, had one since they came out in 2003 but sold it a few years back. One reason getting back is coating,another is I got several hundred once fired CBC brass from a gunsmith friend... I've been coating my old hard bullets now, have hundreds and boy,they have grown to 504...

I remember having fit issues because of brass stretch. I used Starline only. Now I need to re-think CBC... and get a strong push through sizer for a strong press. Lubrisizers with a .500 die won't handle these...

Diesel,did you pull a bullet to confirm size?

I pulled one and measured 9 ways to Sunday and still measured .501. I’m starting to suspect the effect the gas check had on CBC case had while seating. That area where check was or right before it was where cartridge was stopping in cylinder. There were a couple out of 50 that actually plunked in.


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[Dieselhorses]

And Doug you are correct. Cannot just run in case sizer as bullets are loose. Have to pull em, ugggh


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[Four-Sixty]

I've no experience with 500 S&W, but on my 38 Special CBC brass it requires aggressive trimming. I had to segregate it from other mixed brass as it'd get too long, too fast, and nearly get stuck in the seating die.

I don't have a link, but read years ago that someone did a durability test comparing CBC brass to other cases and the CBC (Magtech) brass far outlasted any other brand. I bought several thousand for myself.

[Dieselhorses]

I've no experience with 500 S&W, but on my 38 Special CBC brass it requires aggressive trimming. I had to segregate it from other mixed brass as it'd get too long, too fast, and nearly get stuck in the seating die.

I don't have a link, but read years ago that someone did a durability test comparing CBC brass to other cases and the CBC (Magtech) brass far outlasted any other brand. I bought several thousand for myself.

For being so durable, it sure does "bulge". Every bullet I seated was exactly .501. I wish I could use them but in process of pulling and de-priming.

[Petander]

Maybe expand a tad more?

I use Redding 500 dies,they are sort of tight when seating 501-502 cast GC boolits.

You have checked brass length,I assume?

[Dieselhorses]

Maybe expand a tad more?

I use Redding 500 dies,they are sort of tight when seating 501-502 cast GC boolits.

You have checked brass length,I assume?

Yep, checked length. It's just a very odd behavior with these cases that I haven't encountered before. I have half a mind to actually buy a FC die to see if maybe the heavy roll crimps I put on each one posed the issue.

[mehavey]

QUESTION 1:
Maybe a dumb (or already-answered) question, but . .
what is the loaded case mouth diameter ?

(and... the diameters as you work your way down toward the head?)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/500SWMag005.png/675px-500SWMag005.png


QUESTION 2:
Did you Seat/crimp in 1-or-2 step ?

[Rick B]

In regards to loading CBC cases in the past, I was able to load a .500 Jacketed bullet and the rounds chambered. A .501 cast bullet loaded in the same cases would not chamber These we’re Plain Base bullets. The mold casts a ,503 bullet. Sized to .501 and as hard as they are, I believe the loaded bullets increased in diameter. Your case necks are to thick, no crimp die will solve your problem. Measure a loaded round and compare to the dimensions in Mehavey’s post above.
Rick

[Dieselhorses]

In regards to the last 2 posts (RickB & Mehavey) after seating bullet cases measured .536-.538 diameter. I seated all first THEN crimped. Oddly enough, the 340 grain NOE hollow points (PB) I loaded with Unique plunked fine AND they were in CBC cases!

[mehavey]

seating bullet cases measured .536-.538 diameterWow (!) That's got to be a brass problem.
Both my Starline and Hornady case/mouth thicknesses run 0.013/14" (neck thickness gauge (https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/311160/redding-case-neck-concentricity-gauge?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Equipment+(Not+Presses)&utm_content=311160&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Equipment+(Not+Presses)-_-Redding-_-311160&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxYLoBRCxARIsAEf16-seca8bbXXQAO1gw-_iAYTTBFLTGVKNA5V9hQ8elNXV88gC09R4WxAaAltzEALw_wcB )).
Loaded with 0.501/2"-sized 440's, loaded case/mouth diameter is 0.528"

See if you can beg/borrow/steal a thickness gauge (or reeeeeeally fine use of needle tip of calibers) to check your cases.

[Petander]

My Starline and Magtech (CBC) both measure 0.014- 0.015 using steel calipers. But the caliper's "knife edge" most probably gives a tad too big a reading. Anyway they are equal,Starline seemed to vary a little more,I measured a few of both,turning them around.

And a 0.5015 GC bullet won't go in a fired .0.5315 (neck dia) case with bare hands. Inside dia reads 0.500-0.501. Only found fired CBC ,Starline is new. Why a 0.515 bullet? I sized some old superhard bullets using Lyman .500 die but they spring back this much. The sizer will break,gotta stop,I now have a tube die coming.

Dang I need a gun to continue from where I was a few years back. I remember some chambering mysteries, J-boolits never caused problems. We have a thread here,"does 0.001 really matter?"...

[fredj338]

Likely the switch to diff cases. I see this in all calibers, brass manuf matters.

[Petander]

I was fiddling around with this 2018 model at a local dealer today.

Fired 5315 brass went in snug,also came out. Pretty much max size.Feel was the same in each cylinder.

0.500 bullet fell through,obviously. 0.5015 couldn't be pushed through cylinders by hand. Again, everything felt the same in each cylinder.

I think I will try 0.5005 boolits if I jump on this (tempting) bandwagon again. Sizer may need to be 0.495 then.

243602

[Petander]

In regards to the last 2 posts (RickB & Mehavey) after seating bullet cases measured .536-.538 diameter. I seated all first THEN crimped. Oddly enough, the 340 grain NOE hollow points (PB) I loaded with Unique plunked fine AND they were in CBC cases!

Loading dummies here.

I get .532 with .5015 NOE boolits & CBC cases.

EDIT: Just got confirmed that they chamber fine. Magtech factory ammo is .529.

[Petander]

Diesel,what dies do you use?

I loaded some rounds with .5015 bullets, getting .5315 and I find it about max dia for the Redding seating die. It's dragging quite a bit,making it hard to adjust crimp "by feel" (I like to turn the die down to touch,then crimp three times while turning the die a tad deeper each time).

Can't get the feel,it's so tight,dragging. Any fatter rounds would be very,very hard to push in the Redding seater at all.

This is the same with my CBC and Starline brass. I have no way of making larger than .532 ammo with these dies.

And .532 chambers in my test gun.

[Dieselhorses]

Diesel,what dies do you use?

I loaded some rounds with .5015 bullets, getting .5315 and I find it about max dia for the Redding seating die. It's dragging quite a bit,making it hard to adjust crimp "by feel" (I like to turn the die down to touch,then crimp three times while turning the die a tad deeper each time).

Can't get the feel,it's so tight,dragging. Any fatter rounds would be very,very hard to push in the Redding seater at all.

This is the same with my CBC and Starline brass. I have no way of making larger than .532 ammo with these dies.

And .532 chambers in my test gun.

Using Lee dies. Never had any issues until loaded into CBC brass. Just got finished pulling the 50 I loaded, guess I'll use those for J bullets. I may, in fact try Redding dies to see if that helps.

[Petander]

Using Lee dies. Never had any issues until loaded into CBC brass. Just got finished pulling the 50 I loaded, guess I'll use those for J bullets. I may, in fact try Redding dies to see if that helps.

I use Redding because it was the only one available in the shop back in the day when I got my first 500.

It is very tight with (oversize) cast. It sizes all too much,then expands with .496 expander which is hopelessly small to seat .5015 boolits straight. Crooked seating can cause chambering problems.

So I don't full length size. I only size enough for appropriate neck tension (approx. 0495) so I need no expander,then just flare enough for the gas checked boolit to start straight. I decap before sizing with Lee decapper die.

If I full-size and expand with the Redding (good for jacketed) expander, my boolit sometimes gets coating scratched off around the boolit body/nose. I don't mean case mouth "shaving'. The seating die is just so tight,slight "crookedness" shows like that. Seating stem prefers RN:s or RF:s..

Anyway,expanding/seating is pretty delicate business with these Redding dies. As is crimping because everything is so crowded. But my ammo is good.

When I'm sure about my boolit size I'll get some NOE expanders.

Another note,Redding dies are somehow very narrow at mouths,sometimes it's hard to get the cases/rounds start in the die...?

[Dieselhorses]

I use Redding because it was the only one available in the shop back in the day when I got my first 500.

It is very tight with (oversize) cast. It sizes all too much,then expands with .496 expander which is hopelessly small to seat .5015 boolits straight. Crooked seating can cause chambering problems.

So I don't full length size. I only size enough for appropriate neck tension (approx. 0495) so I need no expander,then just flare enough for the gas checked boolit to start straight. I decap before sizing with Lee decapper die.

If I full-size and expand with the Redding (good for jacketed) expander, my boolit sometimes gets coating scratched off around the boolit body/nose. I don't mean case mouth "shaving'. The seating die is just so tight,slight "crookedness" shows like that. Seating stem prefers RN:s or RF:s..

Anyway,expanding/seating is pretty delicate business with these Redding dies. As is crimping because everything is so crowded. But my ammo is good.

When I'm sure about my boolit size I'll get some NOE expanders.

Another note,Redding dies are somehow very narrow at mouths,sometimes it's hard to get the cases/rounds start in the die...?

Then no, not gonna fool with Redding! I loaded and fired over 500 of these boogers and until now, never had any issues with sizing, flaring, seating, crimping, plunking, firing and ejecting with my Lee dies. I would suggest altering your die a bit but that may or may not help.

[reloader28]

Diesel, I find it very hard to believe that .500 bullets work and .501 changes the measurements so much. It seems to me it would have to be more along the lines of your die moved on you or it wasnt cinched down all the way.

That brass chambered once, theres no reason it shouldnt work again. Maybe you overcrimped?

[Petander]

Yes,it's kinda strange thought to have such a thick wall brass. What gun could have ever fired it in the first place?

Diesel,have you measured your CBC brass by now? Inquiring minds are also interested in your expander.



I didn't mean to bash Redding,I like them and have a few sets.

Solid tools - but they are optimized for j-bullets with very tight tolerances,which is good. Big cast boolits... need to be careful. Ammo is good. I hope to get down to .5005,will try at least. .05015 is sorta tough in many ways with these dies.

My new shellholder may be bad though,I don't recall brass/die alignment problems from the past. The same Rockchucker, didn't find my old shellholder so I got a new one.

[Dieselhorses]

Diesel, I find it very hard to believe that .500 bullets work and .501 changes the measurements so much. It seems to me it would have to be more along the lines of your die moved on you or it wasnt cinched down all the way.

That brass chambered once, theres no reason it shouldnt work again. Maybe you overcrimped?

Never loaded magtech (CBC) brass before, only Starline and Hornady. Crimped like I always do. I am going to load a few of the same bullets in the same brass and re-check crimps but I doubt it'll make any difference. Also going to try same bullets in Starline brass and note results.

[wonderwolf]

I've had your exact problem with cbc 500 brass in my JR500 pc gun. Solution was to go back to Hornady and starline. Set the cbc cases aside for a looser chambered gun or maybe shot shell, wax loads or whatever conversion

[Petander]

But Magtech ammo is within the specs. And their bullet is .500 exactly.

244484.

I loaded some .502 cast in CBC brass yesterday. And I fired them.

Just wondering - I have never loaded CBC 500 brass before either.

[wonderwolf]

Petander

what gun are you using? the boolits I was loading were a bit longer and caused issues down by where the base of the bullet is. Because these projectiles were not the longest ones I could cast and I had other brass options that produced more reliable results in my semi custom gun I stopped using the CBC for that reason. I've never shot their factory ammo but I have zero reasons to believe the factory stuff would not work in my gun, but loading a .501 cast into it would be too much for it.

[Petander]

Wolf, I'm using a 4" S&W .

I got interested in this thread because someone gave me a big bag full of CBC brass. I'm trying to duplicate the oversize problem but fired cases being .532 and my CBC brass wall measuring .015, it all fits. Even .502 which was a test only.

[Dieselhorses]

Wolf, I'm using a 4" S&W .

I got interested in this thread because someone gave me a big bag full of CBC brass. I'm trying to duplicate the oversize problem but fired cases being .532 and my CBC brass wall measuring .015, it all fits. Even .502 which was a test only.

My CBC case walls measured .018 and that was squeezing tight. I used 2 different calipers for this. I've been putting it off but I'm going to try to duplicate again also.

[Petander]

My CBC case walls measured .018 and that was squeezing tight. I used 2 different calipers for this. I've been putting it off but I'm going to try to duplicate again also.

Do you have real knife-edge tips on those calipers?

If not,try flattening a case to get a straight part to measure. Measuring a round case with a tool with any thickness reads more than is true.

If they really are .018 they can not ever fire jacketed either. A faulty batch.

Here is a flattened case.

244518

[Dieselhorses]

Do you have real knife-edge tips on those calipers?

If not,try flattening a case to get a straight part to measure. Measuring a round case with a tool with any thickness reads more than is true.

If they really are .018 they can not ever fire jacketed either. A faulty batch.

Here is a flattened case.

244518

Yes as a matter of fact those look like mine! Also made sure I calibrated first. Also followed out to edge of neck in case any remaining crimp was left-same thing.

244542
244543

[Petander]

Wow.

My calipers do not have a sharp knife edge though. It's flat. That's why I flatten the case.

But it looks like your brass is no good. I wonder what size bullets it's been fired with?

[Dieselhorses]

Wow.

My calipers do not have a sharp knife edge though. It's flat. That's why I flatten the case.

But it looks like your brass is no good. I wonder what size bullets it's been fired with?

Your calipers are sharp enough and whether I flatten mine or measure as is, always = .018. Do not know what size bullets were shot out them but glad it wasn't shot out of mine. So as far as I'm concerned the mystery has been solved. I measured several Hornady and Starline cases and all .015 thick. Looks like I'll be making something else with the CBC cases other than reloads!

[Petander]

Yep,they wouldn't chamber in mine with Magtech .500 jacketed either. Those should not chamber in any gun.

I just find it very strange,having old and new CBC brass here. Local dealer -who is also the longtime finnish CBC importer- hadn't heard of this either - as a side note,they had another brand 500 bulging chambers when CIP shots were fired though.

I get Magtech 400 JSP ammo for 1,20€ / bang. Hornady brass alone costs more, can't find Starline for now but it's not cheap either. Global World economy is so strange.

[Petander]

Oddly enough, the 340 grain NOE hollow points (PB) I loaded with Unique plunked fine AND they were in CBC cases!

That should not be possible with .018 thick brass...?

Can you get access to a micrometer?

244575

[Dieselhorses]

I want to get one as the micrometer has preponderance over calipers any day. I loaded "30" of 340 +/- grain NOE HP's and for the life of me don't know why they chambered but below are pics of first Hornady case loaded and then the CBC.

Hornady
244605
CBC
244606


That should not be possible with .018 thick brass...?

Can you get access to a micrometer?

244575

[Petander]

I'm confused.

To stir the pot a tad more I just ordered a Lee 500 crimp die from Titan. I was hoping for the Factory Crimp with carbide ring to size the whole cartridge,they don't have it for 500.

Let's see what comes.

[Dieselhorses]

This is just going to be the "nature of the beast" kind of thing. I tried loading another 440 gr-sized-powder coated-gas checked slug in a CBC case (wishful thinking). Same thing, won't fit cylinder. Over all diameter measures .531 which makes sense if the bullet is .500 and ONLY if case wall was .015 +/- but it's not! It's .018. The NOE bullets (340-350 grain) work great in CBC cases. Why? HIIK I size em all through same sizer. Let me know how that works from Titan.


I'm confused.

To stir the pot a tad more I just ordered a Lee 500 crimp die from Titan. I was hoping for the Factory Crimp with carbide ring to size the whole cartridge,they don't have it for 500.

Let's see what comes.

[Petander]

This is just going to be the "nature of the beast" kind of thing. I tried loading another 440 gr-sized-powder coated-gas checked slug in a CBC case (wishful thinking). Same thing, won't fit cylinder. Over all diameter measures .531 which makes sense if the bullet is .500 and ONLY if case wall was .015 +/- but it's not! It's .018. The NOE bullets (340-350 grain) work great in CBC cases. Why? HIIK I size em all through same sizer. Let me know how that works from Titan.

Will do. Titan has always been good.

Is your NOE gas checked?

I'm on a roll with this after a few years break,good accuracy and lots of fun so I just ordered a plain base mold from NOE. I figured it's the only way to see how they work. GC I get no leading. And I always wanted a NOE mold anyway,now the first one is coming...

My Hi Tek coating is working good up to 1900 fps with a 45-70 plain base. This 500 is higher pressure...

NOE has always been good,too. I've bought gas checks and expanders.

244689

[Dieselhorses]

Will do. Titan has always been good.

Is your NOE gas checked?

I'm on a roll with this after a few years break,good accuracy and lots of fun so I just ordered a plain base mold from NOE. I figured it's the only way to see how they work. GC I get no leading. And I always wanted a NOE mold anyway,now the first one is coming...

My Hi Tek coating is working good up to 1900 fps with a 45-70 plain base. This 500 is higher pressure...

NOE has always been good,too. I've bought gas checks and expanders.

244689

Looks like my NOE except I got a couple of lube grooves. Mine is plane base also. What powder you using?


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[Petander]

Ok,yes this is a no-lube-groove mold.

I live in Vihtavuori country so I"m using VV N120 and VV N110.

This LBT 425 has quite a small lube groove by the way.

244774

[Dieselhorses]

Just ordered and received 100 cases from "Orisolo" (A USA) and sure enough all case wall thickness were .015 so I'm good to go with those! So now I know I can trust Hornady, Starline and A USA. Does anyone know who else manufactures cases for the 500 S&W?

[Petander]

Good find.

I started seating bullets with RCBS (carbide set) seater,it is much larger than my Redding (steel set) seater. Now I can flare more,seat with RCBS (it came with a FN stem,too ) and use Redding as a final crimper. It's impossible to make oversize rounds with the Redding seater,it's like a taper crimper / factory crimper die,sizing the whole round down even before being turned lower to actually crimp the bullet in the groove.

[Dieselhorses]

Good find.

I started seating bullets with RCBS (carbide set) seater,it is much larger than my Redding (steel set) seater. Now I can flare more,seat with RCBS (it came with a FN stem,too ) and use Redding as a final crimper. It's impossible to make oversize rounds with the Redding seater,it's like a taper crimper / factory crimper die,sizing the whole round down even before being turned lower to actually crimp the bullet in the groove.

Interesting. Any suggestions for what to do with the 61 oddball CBC (crappy brass cases) I have ? Lol

Correction: 70+ cases
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[Petander]

Interesting. Any suggestions for what to do with the 61 oddball CBC (crappy brass cases) I have ? Lol

Correction: 70+ cases
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Load those NOE:s...? It's a mystery how they worked but...?

I have a mystery,too: after five reloads,a couple of CBC cases only chamber in a certain position. Turned just a little, no more plunk. They only go this deep:

245223.

Can't push them in with finger force. But when those marks point to the cylinder center they plunk with gravity. No burrs in the rear of brass,it's not too long,clean chambers...?

[Petander]

Redding Profile Crimp die might be worth trying.

If it is as snug fit as their seater it will help with oversize rounds. As well as crimp good,too.

[lar45]

Out of round chambers?

[Petander]

Out of round chambers?

My thoughts,too. But even when I full length size those problem cases,they still won't completely chamber,except in one position only. I took some material off a shellholder top and die mouth to size deeper,still no go.

EDIT: I fired the whole box again, 7th reload , and examined the fired brass by chambering it. Those same two (marked) non-chambering cases are still behaving the same. Interestingly it is the same with every chamber...? They can be pushed in any cylinder when the markings point at the cylinder center. Point it out,no go.

If I had an out-of-round chamber,wouldn't there be five out of 25 cases then?

I need to take a micrometer and really examine those two weirdos. The problem must be at the very base of brass,I think.

I used to load for 357 and 44 mag,never experienced this before 500.

[Dieselhorses]

Ok folks, don’t know if I mentioned this yet but I found a bag of fired cases (.500 CBC) and was scratching my head because if they were fired then they musta fit! Turns out that “those” cases measured .015 on the case wall! So now I’m assuming that all CBC cases are not created equal!

I’m also wondering if Magtech loads a smaller (.495) bullet in the thick walled cases. If those bullets are hollow based then that would permit proper “obturation” but that’s only a theory.

Update...put a call into Magtech, waiting on tech to email me back

[Petander]

Very good,now at least part of the mystery is solved.

Can't wait for their reply.

[Dieselhorses]

From MT:

Looking at the spec sheet from the factory and changing mm to inches:

Bullet spec is 0.498-0.499”
Case OD is max 0.5299”
Case ID is max 0.500”

This on the max could give the wall thickness of 0.0299” if you had both extremes. split the difference you will have 0.015” for a case thickness. Spec sheet gives manufacturer tolerances of 0.003” so I would assume both will be within specification.

Max bullet of 0.499 plus the case wall of 0.018 is still inside of the cartridge over all max OD of 0.5299”

Maybe not the best explanation for what you are looking for but let me know your thoughts.
__________________________________

Still doesn’t add up.

Update: Tech said that older lots were actually thicker as he asked me what the lot # was. Well I didn't buy the ammo loaded from factory so....Still looking into it.



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[Petander]

From MT:



Max bullet of 0.499 plus the case wall of 0.018 is still inside of the cartridge over all max OD of 0.5299”




My math says OD is 5335 here. Who is this "MT"? That wouldn't chamber for sure.

I have been going through my Magtech brass, my oldest is from 2003... no thick walls here.

But it's a big mystery how anything has been fired using the thick brass... unless factory is using some crazy cartridge sizing machinery...?

I got the Lee collet crimper,it's a very powerful tool. I loaded a box of cast,seated deeper so there's no groove to crimp in. Then crimped with Lee, all bullets stayed on place and fired good. Hi Tek coating. Clean barrel even without gas checks,I left the checks out to cut down some pressure when seated deeper.

Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

245476

[Dieselhorses]

My math says OD is 5335 here. Who is this "MT"? That wouldn't chamber for sure.

I have been going through my Magtech brass, my oldest is from 2003... no thick walls here.

But it's a big mystery how anything has been fired using the thick brass... unless factory is using some crazy cartridge sizing machinery...?

I got the Lee collet crimper,it's a very powerful tool. I loaded a box of cast,seated deeper so there's no groove to crimp in. Then crimped with Lee, all bullets stayed on place and fired good. Hi Tek coating. Clean barrel even without gas checks,I left the checks out to cut down some pressure when seated deeper.

Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

245476

"MT" is MagTech. According to the discalimer in email, I'm not supposed to share info in email, but...

I'm sure the tech from MagTech wouldn't enjoy each and every one of us writing in on this! Anyway, at the end of the day, looks like the older cases were thicker than new. He said he was going to try to find some of these "thicker" cases and load them and let me know.

In reference to the Lee collette crimper, you crimped above the crimp grove? Wouldn't this raise pressure? I do like that crimp though!

[DougGuy]

In reference to the Lee collette crimper, you crimped above the crimp grove? Wouldn't this raise pressure? I do like that crimp though!

I like that collet crimp too, but it needs modded to make it work right. You can see on the boolit, a good .060" in front of the case mouth, where the collet closed. It left a ring on the boolit. And the case, is nothing more than roll crimped because the crimp ring in the collet crimp die (as shipped from Lee) crimps too high up on the case, it barely crimps the case at all as you can see from the photos.

I shorten the nose of the collet to narrow the crimp band by about 65%, and I shorten the bottom of the collet to lower the crimp ring down onto the case mouth, I like to crimp slightly below the case mouth. Even in the heaviest calibers, boolits are held steadfast against movement until firing. The collet also adds a little resistance which gives the flame front time to light the powder good, and resist the boolit jumping forward from the pressure of the primer lighting off. This cuts down the SD by a very noticeable amount.

Here is a thread detailing the mods I do to my collet crimp dies, quite a few members here have sent dies as well. This is *THE* crimp you want to employ for rounds used in dangerous game country, as your life could depend on your handloads not jumping crimp. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315



Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

245476

One other thing about the collet crimp die, some of them are tight on the ID of the crimp band, my 44 caliber very gently scrapes the sided of a .432" as it is pushed up into the die. I can see this same deformation of the hi tek coated boolit in the OP's post, you can see where the collet left a ridge from one of the four slots as it slid down over the boolit. This crimp band would likely be better suited to the OP's loads if honed out just a tad bit. This honing also affects how much it will crimp when it is fully closed. You can do a lot with these collet dies, there is a considerable advantage to "fitting" them to your specific boolit and case diameters.

[Dieselhorses]

I like that collet crimp too, but it needs modded to make it work right. You can see on the boolit, a good .060" in front of the case mouth, where the collet closed. It left a ring on the boolit. And the case, is nothing more than roll crimped because the crimp ring in the collet crimp die (as shipped from Lee) crimps too high up on the case, it barely crimps the case at all as you can see from the photos.

I shorten the nose of the collet to narrow the crimp band by about 65%, and I shorten the bottom of the collet to lower the crimp ring down onto the case mouth, I like to crimp slightly below the case mouth. Even in the heaviest calibers, boolits are held steadfast against movement until firing. The collet also adds a little resistance which gives the flame front time to light the powder good, and resist the boolit jumping forward from the pressure of the primer lighting off. This cuts down the SD by a very noticeable amount.

Here is a thread detailing the mods I do to my collet crimp dies, quite a few members here have sent dies as well. This is *THE* crimp you want to employ for rounds used in dangerous game country, as your life could depend on your handloads not jumping crimp.



One other thing about the collet crimp die, some of them are tight on the ID of the crimp band, my 44 caliber very gently scrapes the sided of a .432" as it is pushed up into the die. I can see this same deformation of the hi tek coated boolit in the OP's post, you can see where the collet left a ridge from one of the four slots as it slid down over the boolit. This crimp band would likely be better suited to the OP's loads if honed out just a tad bit. This honing also affects how much it will crimp when it is fully closed. You can do a lot with these collet dies, there is a considerable advantage to "fitting" them to your specific boolit and case diameters.

How much did you take off the top of the collette? It certainly appears that your crimp is much more uniform and uses "tension" more than just depending on the roll crimp in crimp groove. Looks more professional.

[Petander]

Excellent,thank you very much,Doug. I appreciate.

I loaded and fired a box today,trying a normal crimp in a cannelure with the Lee collet die. Worked easy and good imo. But I have a no-crimp-groove mold coming,need to study the modifications.

Diesel,yes the pressure was higher because I seated deeper to try heavy crimp with no groove. I left gas checks out to compensate for the pressure rise. And my load is not max here anyway.

[DougGuy]

The link I posted has all the photos, you can see how much was taken off, about 65% of the crimp band was removed from the top to make it narrower. One photo shows the un modified collet sitting on a 45 Colt case, and the crimp band comes up well beyond the case mouth. Who needs to crimp the boolit ahead of the case? Ridiculous.

[Petander]

Doug,that's an excellent tutorial.

One question: How do you get the collet out of the die body?

[Dieselhorses]

Was doing a search on where I could find and M die for 500 just to make sure bullets didn't get swaged down like Doug mentioned. Upon searching I found this thread here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-289590.html) referencing the same issue I was having. Funny no one even once suspected the brass! Not saying this is the case every time but I'm sure it was for me.

Trying to find company who has a .501 M-die AND a FCD so I can just pay shipping once...

[DougGuy]

Doug,that's an excellent tutorial.

One question: How do you get the collet out of the die body?

I use something that fits in the bore of the die really closely, put the die in a vise and tap the collet out. I have grabbed up a piece of round stock and chucked it in the lathe, turned it down to fit.

The collet is relatively soft material and it is easy to damage the top of the fingers if you don't get something in there that fits snug.

[Petander]

Thanks again,Doug.




Trying to find company who has a .501 M-die AND a FCD so I can just pay shipping once...

I ordered .510 plugs from NOE,asking them to turn them to .499 and .500. I got no reply to my questions (email or the message within order) but the goods are here at the customs right now,we will see.

I only partially size my brass ,that way I have managed loading cast without proper expanders. Redding and RCBS are .495-496. I use the flare part.

That thread is an interesting find. It was his 5th reload so brass thickness wasn't an issue there.

[Petander]

Well I didn't get any NOE 499/500 expanders or any replies for emails/messages. Got two .510 expanders instead.

Communication is kinda bad -but the mold is great, I loaded some .5015 with VV N110 today. The beautiful bullet has no grooves at all. I let them sit for a week before loading, not very hard but nice,malleable around 14 I think.

I touched the rounds with a Hornady taper crimp die first for easy "plunking". Then I used the Lee collet crimp for a "forced roll crimp". Shooting tomorrow.



246480.

[Petander]

Yep,the Lee collet crimper can crimp grooveless bullets.

305 grains @ 1600 fps, VV N110. A 4" S&W (Actually it is 3").

246498.

Accuracy looked promising,I was shooting steel @ 75 meters.

(That black crud on brass is graphite.)

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - to quote the Wise Sage BigAlofPA:
"When i have chambering issues. A Lee factory crimp die. Usually takes care of it. I learned that lesson on some tight chambered 9mm."

Asa general rule for our usual "slam-bang semiauto pistol handloads", if you copulated up on case diameter dimensions,
run loaded rounds thru a Lee Factory Crimp Die - probably will upgefix it all... USUALLY DOES!!!

[Petander]

Lee doesn't make a standard carbide ring FCD for 500 S&W, only the collet version which does not size the whole round.

Redding Profile Crimp die can be used to resize loaded rounds if needed... it's really tight and makes taper AND roll crimp if wanted. But in OP:s case of thick wall brass... you know what will happen to the bullet when you squeeze the whole round...

This collet die is good. Sorry for the ugly brass,it's graphite...

246638

[Dieselhorses]

Not too shabby Petander! Rounds look good.


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