Any issues for PP'ing a slower boolit?

[BCRider]

Back story........ I'm trying to find the right boolit for a Uberti 1885 rifle. I've slugged the bore and it looks like the groove diameter is roughly .378 to .379 depending on where I measure.

I just shot a series of lubed cast with a variety of powders and the boolits measure .379 or .3795 depending on where on the boolit I measure. But these ain't doing the job. At 50 yards the BEST I can get is a roughly 3" circle even from bench resting. I was expecting/hoping for more like 1" since I'm getting a really nice sight picture.

So I'm looking at some boolits I cast earlier for my rolling block which drop at .377 and thinking about PP'ing and then running through a custom push thru sizer to .380 (I've got the shop and tools for this).

Question....... Now the thing with .38-55 is that it's not a fast round. I'm going to guess that it'll be happiest even with PP rounds at around 1300 to maybe 1500 FPS. Is that going to be an issue for PP'ing?

I'm going to give it a try regardless and will report back with the findings. But I thought some of you might have some hints to avoid any slower speed pitfalls.

I've also been reading the sticky threads on papers and procedures on what to use and how to use it. Mostly I'm just wondering if there's any tricks I'll need to deal with the lower muzzle speed.

[barrabruce]

Should be no worries.
I prefer soft paper like writing paper and not rag paper so it fragments easier.
Wrap the paper so it wants to peels off on exit.
I wrap so no lead touches the bore and with a flat rolled base with a small dot of lead exposed on the base.
I lube with 50/50 bw/vas.
Seat out long as possible with nose engraving.
I would do a chamber cast and try and match that fit as possible.
Some rifle loads will shoot well groove size others when filling the throat.
A very well soaked soft lube soaked patch can work well with low velocity if the lube is not too sticky.
I prefer a patch that can be hand twisted in a well formed non molested case that is wrapped wet and drys the right diameter with a rub of lube over it.
Ahhh heaven!

[303Guy]

I would think that a softer alloy should work. Perhaps try printer paper and wrapping to a diameter that will allow firm finger twisting to seat the patched boolit in an unsized case. As barra suggests, seat out as far as possible. Try it with low loads of shotgun powder and work up with slower powders and see what happens. Do you need the higher velocities? Like for a bit of range or taking out critters? (Nothing wrong with making high speed holes in paper!) :Fire:

[Harter66]

Since you're making a .380 sizer ....... Unless your cast doesn't drop that big ........

I shot some .258 cores in a .264 WM at .257×.264 over a pitifully light load of 10 gr of Unique . The muzzle report was about a toss for the FN 98 hammer fall from the 26" barrel . Pretty slow , pretty low pressure too .

At the other end of the spectrum I patched some 535s for a 45-70 in a Marlin sub sonic . Nice big paper chits . Probably about 12,000 psi load for 900 fps .

[BCRider]

Some progress but no shooting report yet. I paper patched a couple of .376 bullets and it's sitting at around .389 or so now before being final sized. Just raw printer paper wet wrapped and shrunk naturally. I started to make a push through sizer on my lathe but I messed up and it is way too big. Hoping to try a new sizer starting at .380 bore and see if it sizes and lets the paper spring out to around .381 to 382. I'll polish the sizer more open if need be. And if needed I'll do a sizer to push the .376 bullets down a few thou.

The quest continues.... More as real life allows. Thanks for the suggestions so far. I continue to read threads in this forum to get further up to speed on this paper patching thing.

[303Guy]

You might consider making a neck sizer to open up new cases to fired case size. I made a sizer die to bring a fired case down to a clearance size to grip patched boolits firmly. I noted that the neck does not expand measurably on seating with printer paper - the paper compresses. This doesn't work quite as well with sized boolits but then again, with sizing both necks and boolits the fit can be controlled.

[jethunter]

Back story........ I'm trying to find the right boolit for a Uberti 1885 rifle. I've slugged the bore and it looks like the groove diameter is roughly .378 to .379 depending on where I measure.

I just shot a series of lubed cast with a variety of powders and the boolits measure .379 or .3795 depending on where on the boolit I measure. But these ain't doing the job. At 50 yards the BEST I can get is a roughly 3" circle even from bench resting. I was expecting/hoping for more like 1" since I'm getting a really nice sight picture.

So I'm looking at some boolits I cast earlier for my rolling block which drop at .377 and thinking about PP'ing and then running through a custom push thru sizer to .380 (I've got the shop and tools for this).

Question....... Now the thing with .38-55 is that it's not a fast round. I'm going to guess that it'll be happiest even with PP rounds at around 1300 to maybe 1500 FPS. Is that going to be an issue for PP'ing?

I'm going to give it a try regardless and will report back with the findings. But I thought some of you might have some hints to avoid any slower speed pitfalls.

I've also been reading the sticky threads on papers and procedures on what to use and how to use it. Mostly I'm just wondering if there's any tricks I'll need to deal with the lower muzzle speed.

Rule of thumb is that the better accuracy comes from the largest cast bullet you can chamber cleanly. A larger diameter bullet enters the rifling straighter and better centred than a smaller diameter cast bullet.

[Old Coot]

Try patching a fired case so that the patched bullet just slides into the case . You may have to bell the mouth of the case first.
As to alloy, since the velocity will be under 1500 fps I would use pure lead or lead with a little tin added to improve fill out. You may want to get a universal decaping die from Lee, and a bell die. Just bell the mouth of the case so it is about .005 larger, and then only iron the bell off of the case without crimping (I assume that this is a single shot rifle). Other than that I can't think of any thing that you should do.

As long as you are getting good ignition with your load I wouldn't make any changes. Brodie

[Lead pot]

There is a lot of misinformation on the forums that smokeless powder does not obturate a lead bullet using smokeless powder so one winter I decided to see just what a smokeless load will do to a PP bullet that was cast with 1/16 T/L alloy and patched to bore diameter. I never use smokeless powder in my Sharps, Stevens or high walls so the results I found were very interesting. The biggest problem was protecting the bullet from getting gas cuts like you see on the left bullet and the accuracy suffered greatly also the bore was packed with lead when I cleaned the rifle.
Pick the proper burn rate smokeless powder and all will be right.
You will see better accuracy using a load between 1200 to 1800 fps using cast patched bullets.
244348

[OverMax]

If you have access to a lathe & capabilities. No doubt in my mind this situation is a temporary set-back.

[BCRider]

303Guy, I've already made a few different neck expanding and flaring inserts to fit in my powder drop die. So that doesn't scare me at all. But it's a good point that all of this goes hand in hand.

I do have a good machine shop and I'm thinking of buying a small size Lee mold and machining it to produce purely paper patch bullets similar to the ones above. And hopefully drop out at or just a hair bigger than the sizes noted above and in the sticky resource threads.

I temporarily went with another option to get by for the big match of last weekend. I made a heavy sleeve that polished out to .382". then I had to bore and add a smaller size "nose". With that I was able to bump some .379 bullets up to .382. That got me through the long range side match in pretty nice style. I was getting hits on the distant targets with pleasing regularity. But I misread the wind during the second three shots after re-setting the sight. The wind at my back had died so I goofed when I set the sight two Vernier points low thinking I' get a boost. So two out of the twelve total shots went under the belly of the buffalo silhouette I was shooting at. So I tied for first at 10 out of 12 but the other guy managed his shots in 9 seconds less.

Anyway, I'm still going to try some paper patching in due time and see how it all compares. And see if I can bump up the velocity to a bit over the present 1350'ish where I seem to be getting the best performance from the cast boolits.

[303Guy]

Just a consideration, if you are going to open up a mold, leave shallow grooves to grip the patch. I used to use a soft but fairly tough alloy that would impress in the paper and grip it. Then I went to a harder and tougher alloy and found the patch would slip to I resorted to rolling the boolit between to fine files. Bastard files might be better but if you are opening up a mold then leave shallow grooves - much easier I would think.

On the other hand, sizers can be quite useful. I made one that produces a two diamer boolit with and angled transition. I was trying to match the boolit to a particular throat. It kinda worked Ok but wasn't all that parallel on the base section. I thought of doing the sizer die in two sections pressed into an outer body. That way I could get the ID parallel and the double taper just right before bringing them together. Never got that far - yet. Now that I'm heading for semi-retirement, I hope to do some of my desired projects.

In the meantime, the molds that I made a few years ago have been quite useful. Smooth sided nose pours. Two diameter with taper transitions - also a two part press together project waiting for time and or energy.

Bumping up is a thought I have had - so it works!

P.S. I envy your good machine shop. Mine is pretty basic.

[BCRider]

303Guy, that's some primo advice on leaving some slight roughness on the mold. Thanks.

And it's not what you got it's what you do with it. Often a lot of work arounds can be used to get the results that are sometimes thought can only come from a lot of fancy tools. Given what you're describing I think you're doing fine with what you have.

....now if it's dreaming about a nicer and more spacious setup instead of trying to cram too much into a closet then that's another issue. Room is certainly nice! And LOTS of good storage!

[barrabruce]

For your interest.
This is a couple of groups with my 310 cadet with paperpatching going @something more than the speed of sound rough guess 1200-1300fps???
Only 50 yards and was gusting with a steady rest.
Best I can to with a peep and post.

They were wrapped with rifling so would peel off and placed in 50-50 bw/vas till they were hot as the melted wax.
Left to harden on paper standing up.
As you can see the lube seems to carry to the target and the patch must get away cleanly.
They were breach seated as my chamber is but really a taper.
244858
5 shots with 3 grns bulleye
244859
Theirs 8 shots in this somewhere.
Hope it helps.
Ohh the paper ends up being a soft some what fragile "mulch?"
Haaahaaaa

[BCRider]

Bruce, I'd be more than happy with a group like that. My bumped bullets produced a best group of only about 3 inches at 50 yards from a half dozen recipes for three powders and amounts. But it was the best I could do for the time I had left so I went with it. I'll be over the moon if/when I manage a group like yours for one of the recipes.

Leadpot, if you are still reading how did you capture those boolits with so little damage?

[OverMax]

As prior read. Not in anyway attempting critiquing your P/P idea. Sorry your thinking is opposite in theory. Ideal way to paper patch a straight wall cartridge. Resize a usual cast to a smaller in dia bullet so's to allow its paper patching (as much a 6 calibers smaller in diameter) Patch 3 (minimal turns) larger to your desired bullet wanting wo/ FL re-squeezing a patched bullet to desired shooting diameter.
Doing such FL resizing simply transforms your wrapped core bullets paper into a wooden hard like material. Keep in mind the patching >needs< to shred at muzzle not be carried {a down range distance} before falling away. (simular to a sabo doing)
The longer patching stays attached beyond muzzle's end >accuracy will surely suffer.
Where the problem lies many patchers crimp such cartridges much harder than a desired non-resized fired case. Any applied crimp again affects accuracy. So to Paper Patch with success. A full case of powder that settles no lower than the bullets base when seated and such patched bullet is held in place wo/ applied crimp. Four things required. Proper paper_proper powder_Proper bullet size with wrap_ patience galore.

[303Guy]

I've mentioned before that I have had accuracy success with a patched boolit at subsonic velocity. These were not recovered but what was recovered were patched boolits from a catch medium that still had their patch intact. So I wondered whether I could design the patched boolit to keep its patch on all the way to the target. That won't happen at higher velocity and pressure but all I'm wanting to do is make holes in paper (and shoot a few rabbits and hares).

https://i.postimg.cc/VLp4MyCb/Untitled.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/rF3Bnr5z/MVC-781-F-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/RV8pRxwB/Patch-Base-on-Fired-Boolit.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Light boolit above and heavy below. That's with cheap printer paper, unsized so in its softest form.

The bottom boolit looks wet because it's been brushed in running water to get the medium off.

My thinking is that if the patch stays on intact then accuracy cannot be negatively influenced by how and when the patch comes off. So why not just go plain cast? Bore condition. Mind you, even with a mint bore, doing this would keep the bore clean. That first one was fired in a mint two-groove Lee Enfield. So even the sharp rifling didn't cut through the patch.

[BCRider]

Overmax, more good reasoning. It'll be used in a single shot rifle so crimping isn't an issue. I do aim for a moderate neck tension just to give the powder a chance to get burning well before the bullet moves. But once I get onto this I may also try minimal seating depth and let the bullets self seat against the lead of the rifling if I can. But for now I'm trying to limit the variables.

I did spin some paper around a .376 size lube groove bullet. Just regular printer paper. Two full but not quite overlapping wraps. When dry the size of this combo ended up being .390" where the groove diameter is more like .381'ish. That seems a bit excessive. So I was looking at making up a sizer that squeezes the core bullet down about .004 and find slightly thinner paper to try again. I've got a bunch of stuff on my plate but I'm going to have a go at this option starting next week.

[OverMax]

Some of the patching procedures I know of.
A few published requirements before a patched bullet is cycled into battery.

From the get go. Keep in mind not all barrel twists accommodate patched bullets. So;
Brass must be fully fire formed prior to you're rifles chamber.
Brass case/s should be trimmed to length so to match each other (which is helpful to achieve: near identical POA termination on target.)
No die FL re-sizing or Neck re-sizing can I suggest or the intentional application of a modern bullet lube over the wrapped patch during a typical re-sizing effort. After-all that's one of the many jobs a dry patch paper preforms i.e. limited barrel lubrication.
Bullets should be paper wrapped 3 turns {minimum} and allowed to dry to preferred .001 or .002 oversize of> bore measure. And seated in a cartridge case with the same measurement i.e. {.001 or .002} near contact with its bore.
Bullet material used should have a low 7 or 8 BHN figure. This lead softness figure accommodates some bullet contact with its rifling which helps to true spin and paper shred at muzzle.
Powder used. Must be measured so to create {interior shelf or bullet base rest} which controls a patched bullets rearward movement once seated to its desired depth. Artificial means applied crimp isn't always a successful way as its not a suggested Paper Patch procedure. Given thought. Mid to late 19th century Paper patching. Such rifle cartridges were seldom re-sized. Like I've commented prior. Such patched bullets are held seated in case with minimal neck pressure and a large measure of B-powder. Now~ I don't expect everyone whom reads this write agrees. Although with me that's a Members prerogative.

[samari46]

I bought some 7/8ths x 14 tpi threaded rod from a old machinery supply house years ago. 3x3' lengths I dont remember the cost but must have been fairly. Since at the time all the lathe I had was a 6" sears craftsman metal working lathe. One of the first things I made was a neck die for 7.62x54r cartridge. Maybe about 1" long. My dies were overworking the case neck. Never hardened it as the screw stock is harder than the brass.

[BCRider]

Samari46, I found that same stuff about a year and a bit back at a local industrial supply place. I've used it for a few reloading die projects now and it's been really handy. Next up is to use it with an O1 drill rod tool steel insert as a custom sizing push through die. Just got to get some real life house type things done first....

Overmax, I've found that sometimes folks that do things a bit differently reach good results because they follow a consistent approach to their "different way". I thank you for your detailed posts and I've saved them to my "paper patching notes" directory for careful consideration in how I go about all this paper patching in the end.

The rounds I'm shooting are 38-55. So a slightly tapered "straight wall" casing. I only partially size them at present to get the nose portion of the casing down to size so that when I push in the opening and flaring die I get a nice parallel neck ID for the length of the bullet. Or at least most of the length of the bullet. I do crimp but only enough to straighten out the very slight mouth flare, not to actually bite into the bullet. I found I needed a slight flare or sometimes the edge of the mouth would "plow" some lead off the riding bands. And in the case of PP'ed boolits it might tear the paper. I'll likely continue to do this flare thing but perhaps modify it to where the flare still fits within the chamber and does not require it to be crimped back in?

The custom made ID neck sizer and flare insert I made up is 0.3810. The cases spring back and come in at .3800 to .3803'ish I assume differences in this spring back are due to different hardness levels of the cases. I may try some lower heat level annealing such as done with shouldered rifle casings and see if that results in a more consistent size. But on the other hand that's pretty close already.

I can't find the slug I made for this barrel at the moment. So I'll likely have to make another. But I'm pretty sure the groove diameter is .381. And I seem to recall that the bore ID was .379? Or maybe .378? I'll have to slam another round ball into the muzzle and check...... The regular cast boolits I'm using at present bumped out to .382 are fitting into the chamber nicely. Neck tension on these (I know this isn't paper patching yet but still.... ) is firm but I can push them in with thumb pressure without leaving a long lasting divot in the end of my thumb. Is that about what you are looking for with your paper patched loads?

I'll likely still need to slightly size down then open up the necks. Otherwise the fire formed cases straight from the rifle are tapered and the next bullet in even if it does have a whiff of neck tension will only be touching right at the mouth. But like I say I aim for only enough of a sizing reduction that I can generate a short parallel portion for the bullet to rest in at the mouth. Checking a few cases ready for powder and bullet shows that I'm getting roughly a 1/4" long parallel portion behind the mouth of the casings. So a touch less length than the lower bore riding portion of the bullets I'm using.

[303Guy]

Sounds to me like you have it all worked out. You might try a neck sizer that doesn't change the case mouth but gives you the parallel seating portion you need (the mouth having to spring back a little). I used cheap printer paper because it is so compressible that it seats tight without expanding the neck and without compressing the boolit. To get them into the neck I would roll them on my lube pad (loaded with STP smoke stopper) and seat by finger with a twisting action then complete the seat with the press. The boolit gets so tight that fingers won't do it all the way. The STP soaks away leaving the boolit impossible to pull without damage. An impact puller would likely do it but I don't have one. My 303 Brit case necks are thick enough for an internal chamfering tool to be all that is required for seating.

One thing I found with my methods was that the boolit bases were getting cupped and forming a feathered trailing edge. I reasoned that the feathering would likely be uneven so I stopped using filler, switched to a powder positioner and used more powder to get pressure and added a rebate to the boolit base. I achieved the undamaged base I was seeking but life kinda got in the way of my experimenting and I never got these out for serious testing on the range.

https://i.postimg.cc/hPw9X9dD/40gr-192gr-no-filler-WAD.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/qMY7swwF/214-Pig-Gun-20gr-2205-Dacron.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

But anyway, what you are doing with your case necks sounds fine and will unlikely shorten case life - my cases wear out on the rims from the extractor riding over them from single shot loading.

On annealing - you might want to not anneal. Simply adjust your die size to give the desire results. I figured that an unannealed, many times fired, unsized neck will spring back to the desired size on its own but not so much with your chamber.

It would be nice if you could post a few photos of your proceedings and tools.

[Lead pot]

Bruce, I'd be more than happy with a group like that. My bumped bullets produced a best group of only about 3 inches at 50 yards from a half dozen recipes for three powders and amounts. But it was the best I could do for the time I had left so I went with it. I'll be over the moon if/when I manage a group like yours for one of the recipes.

Leadpot, if you are still reading how did you capture those boolits with so little damage?

I use snow I pile up or deep snow drifts.

Bruce,
There is no need to knurl or rough up a bullet shank to hold the patch. I have never seen a recovered bullet that the patch slipped off. That rebated boat tail bullet I swage or a flat base they stay put.
245299245300

[303Guy]

I found that with soft alloy, the patch grips the boolit just fine, actually leaving a paper grain impression on the boolit. But with hard alloy, I found the patch sometimes slips during seating. That's when I knurl. The harder boolit doesn't conform to the bore well at lower pressures where I can recover them for examination whereas the softer alloys conform nicely just like those of Lead pot's above. Also note the paper grain impression.

[BCRider]

303 and the rest of you. I'll post up some pics in a few days. When you asked for pics I was just starting to make a sizing die. But then a buddy dropped by and got me to make a part for his S&W and pressure to start ripping out the smelly and badly worn carpet in the family room reached a peak and I've got a BP rendezvous this weekend. So sometime next week.

Based on what all you lot posted above I measured the fired casings and the chamber impression I made from that low temp melting metal. I know it grows over time but I tried to allow for that and it looks like the fired cases are about .003 smaller than the chamber and that the ID of the cases is 0.384. The groove diameter is around .381 to .382 at the muzzle. So if the paper patched bullets come in at, say, .385 to .386 so they are a nice finger style push fit into the casing that should be about right for the bore as well?

[Optimist]

Looking forward to your next post, BCRider. (Life's what happens when we're busy making plans....)

[barrabruce]

If you can wrap them to fit the throat and get them in the fired case you will be there if you can seat them to lightly engrave the rifling.
That way all is filled and lined up with nowhere to get out of alignment.
A small flare at the case mouth to lightly drag on the chamber neck will stop blow by of gas and dirtying your brass if you get that.

This is where your prepped and uniform brass will come into play.
Different brands of brass will be a thou or two thinner or thicker and you want a light interference fit.
Screwed in by hand but not any neck expansion.

A tight wrap or slightly looser one will make a difference as well as to the direction of the grain of the paper.