Sizing bullet techniques or tips

[RogerDat]

I use the Lee push through sizers but am finding that a .360 cast bullet sized to .358 tends to get a thin "skirt" on the bottom edge from lead of the bottom driving band being pushed down.

How do people avoid this ridge of pushed down lead? Or how do people deal with cleaning the ridge up when it happens?

Myself I have been using a smaller 1/2 round tapered file edge like a deburring knife, to scrape the thin skirt off or at least out flat. I then follow with about six twists of a NOE base outside edge chamfer tool. that generally removes the lead skirt but is a fair amount of extra handling. And extra time invested in each bullet.

I tried running the current batch through Lee push through sizer base first. Was a flat nose profile so seemed like it was worth a try. Left an uneven skirt around the WC top band, where I can't remove it by trimming or with a chamfer tool. I think that is not a better solution.

[Kraschenbirn]

From my personal experience, you might try reducing resizing friction with some judicious polishing of your Lee push-thru. After that, the you're still getting the distortion, a bit of case lube applied to every fourth or fifth boolit might help but, most likely, you'll still have to make a light pass with your NOE tool. FWIW, after I tried my first NOE push-thru set-up, I gave up on Lee sizers completely and switched everything over to NOE.

Bill

[RogerDat]

.... FWIW, after I tried my first NOE push-thru set-up, I gave up on Lee sizers completely and switched everything over to NOE.

Bill

What advantage was there with the NOE sizer? I use the NOE expanding plugs to size cases and like them. But have had the Lee bullet sizers already purchased for what I need so hadn't really done more than look over the NOE offering when it came along.

Any special polishing compound? Or just something like red or white paint polishing compound work ok? I'm thinking a dowel inside the die and then roll the die around the dowel by pushing it back and forth like a rolling pin.

I have used lube with some bullets, but the most recent batch the pushed lead was more pronounced than I normally see. Find Lee case sizing lube washes off easily with hot water and a drop of soap in a bread loaf pan 1/2 full of bullets. Super hot water dries best, wife's blow dryer finishes the task. The come out clean enough to PC afterwards without issues.

[country gent]

The fit of the pusher to the die also has a bearing here. A pusher that's flat and matches the dies dia wont do this. since it supports the bullet base better. It needs to match the actual dia of the die - .001 to .0015.

Another is to polish the leade in angle of the die making it a little more gradual. This helps the die to squeeze the bullet down and not push it back. Polishing the die and this leade in will reduce drag of the operation.

Last to try is tumble your bullets in a few drops of dish soap just before sizing this also acts as a lubricant for the die and reduces drag and the "pull" down of the sides of the bullets. Like sizing lube on cases this doesn't take much, a plastic tub and a few drops soap swirl some bullets until all are coated. Or a towel and dish soap with the bullets then agitate the bullets until coated. You can experiment with the soap by diluting with water 50-50 or different ratios to get just what you want

[Conditor22]

What advantage was there with the NOE sizer?
1) More different sizes
2) Once you've bought the "Push through size die body" size changes are a lot cheaper, $9.75 for a sizing die body and $7.50 for the push rod (lee pushrods work in NOE dies.
3) storage I have the Push through size die body, 24 size bushings and the needed pushrods in a 9 x 14 x 1 3/4 HF storage tray ( could easily store twice as many in there)

Disadvantage - die body screws in on ram side of the press so you lose a little leverage - can't "cam-over "


I PC all my boolits and never have the "fin" problem when sizing. A little boolit lube or case lube makes sizing PC'd boolits easier also.
AND PC'd boolits aren't temperature sensitive.

[Outpost75]

Push bullets through sizer base-first and you get no fins.

Bevel-base produces no fins.

[Walks]

Dish soap works with nekkid bullets and PC

[Mitch]

I Agree with outpost75 push em thru base first for flat based bullets.This is where the NOE sired setup is a bit different than the lees.NOE has a adapter to hold nse punches on the ram of the press t push them thru base first.Another advantage of the NOE sizer is you can buy the bushings cheep enough to have them ay size you need by the .001.The NOE sizer I well built and ezy to change bushings.i think well worth the price.i use it more than I thught I would.

[MT Chambers]

Base first can lead to concentricity issues as on the Lyman/RCBS sizers, smoothing (polishing) the nose first dies is best bet as is a bit of lube prior to sizing. The Star dies are smooth and don't cause those problems and are sized nose first for best concentricity.

[Bazoo]

Polishing the die will solve your problem. I had the same problem. I was able to size a .437 bullet down to .430 after polishing my die. What I did is used some 1000 grit wet/dry paper on a patch holder and some oil and polish the inside. Then I took a tight fitting piece of rag on the patch holder with some green polishing compound.

[jcren]

Noe has a deburring tool intended to prep boolits for gas checks that chucks into a drill and makes quick work of minor rings, but is not aggressive enough to remove too much lead. First things first though, I have also found that polishing lee dies with fine (400-600) wet/dry on a dowel helps a lot.

[gnostic]

You didn't say what bullet you're talking about, but I have the same problem with the Lee 120 grain TC. I'm getting a build up on the shoulder, that locks the gun up. My bullets drop from the mold at .360 or.361 and I'm sizing to .358. I've tried Lee sizers and get the build up at the base. With RCBS sizers the build up is on the shoulder...

[RogerDat]

Polishing the die will solve your problem. I had the same problem. I was able to size a .437 bullet down to .430 after polishing my die. What I did is used some 1000 grit wet/dry paper on a patch holder and some oil and polish the inside. Then I took a tight fitting piece of rag on the patch holder with some green polishing compound.

Did you chuck that patch holder into a drill on slow speed or anything? Or just turn and run it through by hand?

Bullet is a .360 160 grain SWC from NOE. With a deep square lube groove and two smaller crimp grooves. Very much like this one which is a bit heavier. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_360-165-SWC_PB_T5_Sketch.Jpg

When I send them through base first I still get the pushed lead only it ends up pushed up around the SWC shoulder. Where I'm sure it would do bad things to airflow since the fin is not terribly consistent. Also a location that would be harder to remove the fin from, if not pretty much impossible to do well and effectively.

I can see base first maybe working better for a tapered bullet, I do some rifle bullets that way to seat gas checks and they work well but there is no shoulder going forward to pull the lead up around and create a fin.

I have the hand held NOE deburring tool, gave some thought to the one for a drill or power screwdriver but decided to go with hand until I get a feel for it. If I have enough of these to do, and need to remove a bit more material I may have to switch to a power tool version of the NOE deburring tool.

I didn't purchase any of the NOE sizing dies because the reduced cost and storage didn't impact me. I have the Lee sizers I need already, and store them 2 each in the red or yellow 2 position Lee die cases I buy empty. If I was starting from scratch that would have been different. Or if I were to at least get a new caliber to reload for to require another sizer purchase I would have an excuse to buy the NOE set up. Replacing a working Lee die with a new NOE one to do the same thing costs not saves.

Tonight or this weekend I'll try some soap or lube solutions. See if that helps. I'm pretty sure I have some 1000 or at least 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper. So will also take a crack at polishing if that seems needed. All sound like good ideas.

[Bazoo]

I used a cleaning rod section in a drill and did pretty fast. I used ample lube too. Here is a thread where I describe it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?380262-Good-idea-or-bad-%96-case-lube-for-the-pre-sizing-lube&p=4645040#post4645040

[jaysouth]

I use the Lee push through sizers but am finding that a .360 cast bullet sized to .358 tends to get a thin "skirt" on the bottom edge from lead of the bottom driving band being pushed down.

How do people avoid this ridge of pushed down lead? Or how do people deal with cleaning the ridge up when it happens?

Myself I have been using a smaller 1/2 round tapered file edge like a deburring knife, to scrape the thin skirt off or at least out flat. I then follow with about six twists of a NOE base outside edge chamfer tool. that generally removes the lead skirt but is a fair amount of extra handling. And extra time invested in each bullet.

I tried running the current batch through Lee push through sizer base first. Was a flat nose profile so seemed like it was worth a try. Left an uneven skirt around the WC top band, where I can't remove it by trimming or with a chamfer tool. I think that is not a better solution.

I have used two "lubes" for sizing bullets with good results. WD-40 sprayed on the bullet before going through the sizer works well. It will totally evaporate in an hour or so leaving no residue that might degrade powder in the case. Another is spraying bullets with a dilute solution of dawn and water. After through drying there seems to be no residue that will break down powder in the loaded case.

I have gone over to NOE sizers totally. When a sizer is stamped .359, it is .359 on the money. Some lee dies are stamped with diameters that are wishful thinking. I have had to polish every Lee die that I ever used.

[Petander]

I have also polished every Lee die I have. They can easily open up half a thou when doing that,go easy.

Hi Tek makes great stuff called Aqualube,it's the slipperiest thing ever. Just spray on a batch of boolits,let dry and size away.

I also use Lyman / RCBS sizers but with large,hard boolits I prefer Lee. Will shop NOE the next time I shop around there,love their expanders.

[red67]

Why not just PC first and size after they are coated?

[RogerDat]

Why not just PC first and size after they are coated? Some people do that. Others want to size first, inspect at that time, maybe put a gas check on while sizing. Then PC and in some cases size after PC. Also some will cast and size a few hundred of a bullet, size and inspect them then use with different finishing process as needed. I may tumble lube some .38 special or PC them, or gas check and PC for 357 loads. Others may use a lubesizer on some to apply a lube into the lube groove. All from the same 500 count cast as one big batch. Same for other calibers. Some end up as plinking rounds without PC others are processed for full power loads. No matter how they are being finished they will all need to be sized, so sizing first sort of works for putting a bunch of ready to go in the bullet "pantry" for later.

There is a greater chance that sizing post PC will end up taking some PC off. Especially if the bullet is cast larger and not resized before PC is applied. Mold cast .360 sizing is going to take out .02 to get to .358 a coat of PC would be another .01 or .02 compression of the lead or squeezed off the base. However the PC would also act as a lubricant to make running the bullet through the sizer easier for sure. If one considers PC as a bullet lube you want the lead to be sized to .358 and the 1 or 2 thousandth of PC to be lube over that, rather than a layer that causes the lead to be compressed to smaller than the intended size. All that said sometimes people size before and after PC just because it seems to work well in certain cases. My wife has a snub nose .38 that really likes that approach for some unknown reason. My guess is the .358 it a touch larger than it wants so post PC sizing that puts the lead at .357 and the PC coating at .358 works for it.

[RogerDat]

I used a cleaning rod section in a drill and did pretty fast. I used ample lube too. Here is a thread where I describe it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?380262-Good-idea-or-bad-%96-case-lube-for-the-pre-sizing-lube&p=4645040#post4645040

This worked just great. I had some 800 grit wet dry sandpaper. Used a wad jag from cleaning kit in variable speed drill running very slow with drops of general purpose household oil as a lubricant. Didn't run for very long, Figured I could come back to remove more if needed easier than I could replace taking off too much. Avoiding the "cut it three times and it's still too short" situation.

Checked with dial caliper after and was sizing to .358 so material removal was limited. I did make sure to get the initial edge/shoulder where the bullet enters the constriction portion of the sizing die. Made one heck of a difference that is for sure! Faster and easier to feed bullets through and minimal to almost no bottom edge fin. I still hit them to check but I would say 85% just need the chamfer tool for a little clean up, nothing more than they needed when they dropped from the mold. Maybe 15% (or less) have a little bit of a ridge around the bottom edge that I can feel by touch or see with reading glasses on and a lot of good light. Easily removed.

All that results is without using any lube on the bullet! I might try one or more of the lubes suggested to see if even that 10 or 15 percent that get a little bit of fin or ridge can be eliminated, I'm betting they can. Even if not I would say polishing doubled my production rate by drastic reduction in hand work to clean up bases. With bullets at correct size.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[toallmy]

Good show .

[country gent]

swaging or sizing is very dependent on several things to be accurate and not deform the part. Leade into the actual size. This centers and controls the flow of the material. Finish is important not only surface but the edges between the leade and dia and back out again, A sharp edge here grabs and scraps pulling material down. a small radius on these areas helps a lot. Fit of the pusher or punch also relieves the pulled material. A pusher / punch that fits closely to bore leaves no room for the fin to form. .001 - .0015 under dia only leaves .0005-.00075 on a side for fin to form. A very small radius and short section saves wear. Another help with the pusher is to relieve the center to a depth of .060-.090 deep leaving a bearing ring .090 - .1 wide around the outside. This allows the bullet to set flat and true better.

Look closely at the bullets if grease grooved and your getting a fin on the base then there is probably a fin on the bottom of each band also.

Polishing the die helps with most of the issues. A mandrel with 800-1000 grit and light oil to start. Look for polish lines that cross over in a figure 8 pattern here. Then a piece of soft cotton or flannel with polishing compound fitted tight on the mandrel. Use simichrome, Flitz, automotive finish rubbing compound, tooth paste, or red rouge will work here. the same polish technique and work slow the natural action of the cloth will break and lightly radius the edges needed. As to the pusher that's harder to remedy but can be done. Here I have peened them bigger and turned to new size. relieving face with a center point and flat ground drill then face square. this is touchy and fine work easier is to turn end down 1/2" back then press a sleeve on. turn sleeve to dia ( this gives more working room on the dia) relive behind the face leaving .1 land face square and break edges lightly with a stone or fine paper. relieve center of face to the outer ring support.

THe above will make a sizer that does the best at swaging a bullet down with out pushing material down

[RogerDat]

100% correct that when there was a bottom fin it was common to see a little something on the band above the lube groove. Running them through base first put the fin that would have been on the bottom on the top shoulder of a SWC profile I was doing. Not an issue with say a pointed and tapered .223 or .30 caliber rifle bullet run through base first.

[Bazoo]

Glad you're making progress on it. After sandpaper I use a piece of green scotchbrite pad and oil to polish more. I'm not sure the grit but its pretty fine. In you want to go into a real fine shiny polish but don't have polishing compound, you can use a piece of typing paper on the patch holder. It's like 10,000 grit sandpaper. I've used it at work to polish out tabletop finishes as well as the final sanding on raw wood or metal. When it's clogged it'll gloss over.

Personally I don't see any need to lube the bullets if the die is polished fine enough.

[Rizzo]

I use a RCBS Lubra-matic.
It sizes from the base up and because the cast bullet is larger than the sizer die (.358") the lead has to go somewhere when it is sized.
I guess you could say the bullet is being "swaged" during the sizing process.
End result is the lead moves up the bullet and visually looks terrible.
Bullets are from a Lee 358-158-RF mold and they drop around .360"+
I am thinking of trying a .359" sizer and see how that works.

Despite the mold being .358", the bullets drop larger. Why is that?
Apparently the lead expands after being dropped from the mold,...somehow. :confused:

[RogerDat]

I use a RCBS Lubra-matic.
It sizes from the base up and because the cast bullet is larger than the sizer die (.358") the lead has to go somewhere when it is sized.
I guess you could say the bullet is being "swaged" during the sizing process.
End result is the lead moves up the bullet and visually looks terrible.
Bullets are from a Lee 358-158-RF mold and they drop around .360"+
I am thinking of trying a .359" sizer and see how that works.

Despite the mold being .358", the bullets drop larger. Why is that?
Apparently the lead expands after being dropped from the mold,...somehow. :confused:Nose first sizing is one nice feature of the Lee. Or base first for seating gas checks. Doesn't always eliminate the lead getting shoved along the bullet but with the suggested polishing it does get greatly reduced. Wonder if polishing is an option for the RCBS lube dies?

What alloy are you casting with? Alloy can influence the size and weight of the bullet.

I believe the mold is designed to "drop" a bullet of the correct size after the poured lead cools and contracts. Lead and alloys of lead don't all contract the same amount from the space they occupy when molten and expanded. I'm not 100% certain of the "rule" but I think it goes more lead and less alloy yields smaller bullet that weighs more. Higher percentage of alloy reduces weight and increases size because the alloys don't contract as much as pure lead. That there is an impact on size due to alloy I'm certain, that I have it explained properly here I'm not as certain of. Hopefully someone with a more robust understanding will weigh in.

One company Accurate mold wants to know the alloy you plan to use before they make the mold so it will cast to size, NOE in the mold specification drawing lists as cast with COWW as the basis for sizes and weights. I thought Lee had a reputation of casting small so people have been known to open them up with abrasive paste on a bullet spun in the die or shim on the block face.