Pesticides and Herbicides

[Thundarstick]

We have a Roundup thread going, but how many of you, or the general population, stop to think about where we would be without them? Do some here grow ALL your own food using no chemicals, never treat your pets for internal or external parasites, never use pesticides on or in your home. I wonder how many houses would be eaten by termites? Bed bugs and head lice anyone? Ticks and mosquitos galore!

I like my chemicals!

[lavenatti]

I'm with you. I don't trust the safety of roundup but still use it around the driveway and on poison ivy as it pops up around the edges of the property.

As for insecticides, well, since the state bird of NJ is the mosquito you kind of need them to spend any time outside. Clouds of them will descend on you in the morning and evening hours, we've even had times when you ran from the car to the house. For these guys I'll spray some malathion or permethrins around the edge of the yard when they get numerous with decent success. I like malathion, it's fairly harmless to humans (we detoxify it in the body) and it's been around a long time. It's those insectides that are quietly removed from the shelves that concern me. Remember diazinon? Used to be sold everywhere for ants. I imagine something unhealthy was discovered and it was removed before people and their lawyers could make any links to health issues.
I also live in a house built in 1850, I'm not going to be the guy that let termites eat it.

[Edward]

Commercial applicator for 46 yrs ,retired still using Roundup and it still works as advertised !

[Shepherd2]

I wouldn't want to be without Roundup or pesticides. Better living through Chemistry.

[farmerjim]

I wouldn't want to be without Roundup or pesticides. Better living through Chemistry.

+1
I like GMO too.

[Petrol & Powder]

Shepard2 beat me to it.

Better Living Through Chemistry

When used properly, we can greatly improve our lives with chemicals.

I always point out that there are a lot of naturally occurring things that are extraordinarily dangerous. Our ability to use chemicals wisely is a good thing. If someone doesn't agree with that, consider: malaria, yellow fever, scabies, tapeworms, cholera, venomous animals, poison ivy and even sunburn ! Our knowledge of chemistry is useful for all of those problems and more. Pesticides, herbicides, medicines, water treatment, anti-venom and even sunblock can make our lives better !

[Froogal]

My north driveway is graveled and sees very little actual use. If it weren't for glyphosate (roundup) and a product called "Barrier", that driveway would be nothing but a weedy mess. I use the glyphosate in other areas also along with 2,4d when I don't want to kill the grass. I also use a LOT of "Sevin" insecticide. Both liquid and dust.

[RED BEAR]

Oh believe me i am a firm believer in a better life through modern pharmaceuticals.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I hate to jump in here and be contrary, BUT...
Less is more, IHMO.

I realize we can't eliminate all Pesticides and Herbicides, but I believe our society uses way too much, for every little inconvenience. I will always advocate for more natural deterrents and only use potentially dangerous chemicals when necessary, problem is, who decides what is necessary?

[Thundarstick]

I'm going to agree with less is more, sometimes.

I'm mostly thinking of the ignorant snow flakes that believe we could live the life style we enjoy and do away with all chemical pesticides and herbicide use. I'd be willing to bet if they chopped as much cockle burrs and pulled as much Johnson grass as I did growing up, they'd be mixing up a sprayer! :wink:

[lightman]

It would be very hard, maybe even impossible to live without chemicals. The trick is to follow label directions and exercise a little caution. Or common sense!

[Conditor22]

I use them judiciously, all I do is spot maintenance spraying.

My 2 friends are roundup and crossbow.
Roundup kills grass
Crossbow only broadleaf
They can be mixed and efficiently kill everything I need to be gone.

I add a little Miracle Grow to the mix, it helps speed the chemicals to the roots

[GregLaROCHE]

I used to use them a lot, but less and less that we are finding out that they can be harmful. Still I use some now and then. I believe, live a better life with the use of chemicals. I have a lot around my place. My favorite is HCl on heavy rust (not guns). It’s a lot cheaper than Naval Jelly when you buy it by the gallon.

[nueces5]

Without the advances of chemistry, we could not think of the world as it is today. Chemicals are absolutely necessary. The proposal is not to live again as in 1850.
Unfortunately some substances take longer to be proven as carcinogenic. There is a story, a contraceptive called DES, generated cancer in the daughters of the patients who had taken it. Therefore, long-term adverse effects were a big problem. Imagine that a company spends millions to develop a substance, and then they have to withdraw it from the market ...
The best balance in the situation is to choose the chemicals that do less damage to us.
By the way, today's tomatoes do not have the same taste and smell that they had when I was a child.

[Thundarstick]

That's weird. The tomatoes I grow in my garden taste exactly as I remember as a kid? The ones at the grocery don't taste like anything.

[Froogal]

That's weird. The tomatoes I grow in my garden taste exactly as I remember as a kid? The ones at the grocery don't taste like anything.

YEP!! Exactly!

[largom]

I hate to jump in here and be contrary, BUT...
Less is more, IHMO.

I realize we can't eliminate all Pesticides and Herbicides, but I believe our society uses way too much, for every little inconvenience. I will always advocate for more natural deterrents and only use potentially dangerous chemicals when necessary, problem is, who decides what is necessary?

Agree 100 %. My hang-up is no-till farming. Way to much herbicide is applied to the fields. Plants, seeds,and insects absorb the herbicides which are eat by game and song birds. Pheasants, quail, doves and many song birds are declining in numbers and totally gone in some areas. Run-off from sprayed fields goes into the streams and effects fish and other wildlife such as Muskrats. I have had wildlife officers agree with this but stated that no one wants to go against the Dept. of Agriculture.

[Duckiller]

Not everyone uses pesticides. I had an uncle that lived in Mississippi and did not spray his cotton to kill bowl weevils. He also didn't irrigate either. His yield was lower than his neighbors who did spray but his production costs were much less. He also thanked his neighbors for spraying so he would have enough birds to keep the weevils under control. He wondered if no one in his area sprayed would there be enough birds to keep weevils under control. Had a friend in Michigan whose father was a farmer in southern MI. Lots of pheasants in his fields. The Williams family of the Williams Gun Sight Co. regularly came out to hunt pheasants on his father's farm. Then his father along with many farmers figured out they could control weed with herbicides instead of tilling all summer long. The pheasants totally disappeared from the farm in three years. Have a friend who is very allergic to Marathon. When Jerry Brown sprayed to eliminate fruit flies in So. Cal he had to stop mowing his lawn. Residual amounts bothered him for the next 4-5 years. Yes chemicals are necessary to our modern life and there is a factory that still makes DDT. When ever thsome branch of the UN declares a major outbreak of malaria this factory opens up and produces enough DDT to kill most of the malaria carrying mosquitoes. Once the job
is done the factory is closed until it is needed again.
Ask a commercial tomato farmer what he thinks of his product. He will tell you it is what he has to raise to get to market. They are picked green and have no taste. His family eats tomatos that his wife raises in their garden.

[starnbar]

I use some stuff like tobacco dust it will kill anything that flies or crawls across it and after a good rain its gone that dust is no good for tomatoes it will flat burn them up but it keeps any roaches ants fleas and ticks spiders off the lawn

[bmortell]

there is nontoxic alternatives to most things like these but people generally just don't try. they like the convenience of pre made stuff even if it has potential dangers to themselves or the greater environment. sometimes it takes a very long time to prove something has long term health effects. if someone uses say vinegar and salt for weeds instead of roundup I don't think that means there anti progress or whatever.

my garden personally I wouldn't eat anything sprayed with chemicals. i just made my whole garden a wood chip mushroom bed last year and theres no weeds to need picked or sprayed. most plants don't get eaten by bugs here but if there were id research if there was some kind of food safe more household product that i could try. i think this stuff should be more a last resort or atleast explore your options. already know enough dead people with cancer.

[Thundarstick]

Agree 100 %. My hang-up is no-till farming. Way to much herbicide is applied to the fields. Plants, seeds,and insects absorb the herbicides which are eat by game and song birds. Pheasants, quail, doves and many song birds are declining in numbers and totally gone in some areas. Run-off from sprayed fields goes into the streams and effects fish and other wildlife such as Muskrats. I have had wildlife officers agree with this but stated that no one wants to go against the Dept. of Agriculture.

Must because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean there is any relation between the two. IE There seems to be enough rodents, and song birds to support a HUGE population of hawks, owls, eagles, opossum, skunks, raccoons, and coyotes. All those animals are eating something, I bet it's eggs and young game animals! Raptor are protected and no-one hunts and traps fur bearers now days! Is funny how the ditches are full of crawfish, tadpoles and frogs here in big farm country.

[GhostHawk]

I have been watching close in my area for some 50+ years and while chemicals have a impact, lack of good habitat has a bigger one.

I constantly see tree rows and fence lines getting torn up. Ground is tilled edge to edge. There is no where for the critters to live other than ground burrowers which keep the hawks happy.

We had Pheasants in this country, when there were still small opererations that had live stock every section or 2. Once those small beef, dairy operations got shoved out so did the pheasants.

How are they supposed to live without a sileage pile to pick through? We would see roosters working through the cattle yard, picking the whole corn kernals in Jan when it was -30 or colder. Where are they supposed to find a meal when everything is buried in snow?

A little further south of here they still have cattle, and they still have Pheasants.

Food, shelter, water. When everything is farmed edge to edge, There are no fence rows, no tree lines, how are they supposed to live?

Last, because of all those chemicals you can afford to eat.
Take it all away, and except for a few exceptional farmers yields will drop to 1/2 to 1/3 current.

You going to pay 3 times as much for a loaf of bread?

Choose wisely.

[bmortell]

"You going to pay 3 times as much for a loaf of bread?"

similar balance on pretty much everything.

easy greedy method, but usually has a negative impact.

harder less efficient, has less impact.

so on one end you end up basically amish, for better or worse.

the other youd be 300 pounds on a recliner with a tumor and clogged heart valve, but have lots of stuff.

guess everyone needs to find their middle ground.

[Hossfly]

A very good book I read several years ago (The Alchemy of Air) explains a lot about how we got to this place with fertilizer and the way we farm now compared to past. Just to many people to feed.

[bmortell]

I agree, look at a chart of human population over the last 1000 years, its crazy

[15meter]

Habitat loss in Michigan is the number 1 reason for declining small game numbers, and I suspect in most of country. 50 years ago virtually every farm had hay for livestock that didn't get cut the first time until early June when the pheasants, quail and rabbits were up and running. The few, as in 1 out of 25 farms that still have hay are taking the first cutting by the 10th of May where the haybine is picking up eggs nest and all.

Wheat and oats are virtually gone in Monroe county, 50 years ago it was probably 25% of the acreage. More habitat loss.

Now we have half the frontage sold off for "rural estates" every one has a dog and two cats all running loose because it's the country and it would be cruel to chain up the dog or keep the cats in the house. Talk about killing machines.

Driving down the local roads it was rare to see a hawk, to the point of commenting on it or stopping to watch it. You can't drive down a road now with out seeing them all the time.

Should I mention the dozen upon dozen nesting pairs of eagles that have returned in the last 15 years?

Or the osprey's? Or the packs of coyotes?

Those are all top of the food chain predators. If the chemicals were accumulating, they would be gone not increasing in numbers every year.

I don't know if the numbers still hold up, but farmers as a group were (or are still being) watched pretty close for signs of any spike in cancer rates. Ten or fifteen years ago, farmers as a group had slightly lower rates of cancer than the general population.

Personally, I don't have enough fight in me to literally have to fight for every bit of food and I firmly believe that is where we would be at if we got rid of all herbicides/insecticides.

[buckwheatpaul]

I wouldn't want to be without Roundup or pesticides. Better living through Chemistry.

I agree with Shepherd2......read the label, it is the bible as far as the law is concerned, and used as directed your results will be as advertised and you will be safe....the problem is that people do not read the label, wear the wrong clothing and protective equipment, and think that if a little is good more would be even better!

[GregLaROCHE]

I agree the loss of game probably has a lot to do with, loss of habitats most of all. Probably other things too.

The world population is putting a strain on all food supplies. Both land and sea. The agricultural industry is forced to produce the highest yields possible.
H
With our modern distribution system we can have vegetables and fruits, that used to be seasonal, almost all year round. They come from far away, often from outside of the US. The cost however, is that the quality of the produce often suffers. It needs to be g6picked early, often green, to survive the transportation. That’s why the tomatoes in a big chain store don’t taste the same as they used to, or like those from your own garden. Another factor is massive irrigation. If you pump a lot of water into produce, it will get bigger and heavier. Unfortunately, you have to pay with a loss of taste.

Chemicals are used to increase productivity. They are here and will probability stay, because we won’t be able to feed the world with u them. Let’s hope we use them wisely.

[GregLaROCHE]

I just saw this and thought I would post it. Please don’t consider me from on side or the other.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/12/health/glyphosate-cereals-ewg-study/index.html

[Handloader109]

Does anyone realize how FEW people are employed by the farming industry as compared to even 50 years ago? I'm guessing, but I'd be there are less than 25% of the number of farmers producing the same number of crops as in 1969. And go back to 1919 and it's probably 15%. So many improvements in machinery and chemicals make it way easier to grow several times the yield as in the past. Heck, how many rows does the standard planter or for that matter till now? 16? 24? A 6 or 8 row was wide back in the 60's and in 1919? Heck a mule....

[GhostHawk]

Handloader109 nailed it.
There are very few jobs to be had in farming communities.


Saw a sugar beet planter a few weeks back that I swear was 24 rows. Looked bigger than the harrow dad used in the 70's.

We are almost to the tipping point where we will be importing more food than we export.
We would have reached it already if it was not for Soybeans being exported in large bulk to Asia.

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it, and discover that you have dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of.

We live soooo close to the edge as it is.

[Gewehr-Guy]

One farmer in my area used 48 row planters, 120 ft. wide, and he ran five of them ! This year I heard he traded them all in for little 90 ft. planters because they would fit between the mud holes ! When you turn too sharp with 120 feet, some of the row units go backwards and plug with mud, not fun digging mud out of a dozen row units.
My opinion is that our population has such a supply of cheap food that they take it for granted that it will be there forever, but someday many here will go hungry.

[Thundarstick]

I believe we'r are weeding(so to speek) out the dangerous or at least most dangerous chemicals. Once again, I do live in big farm country where spreading pesticides and herbicides are a way of life. I've been told that amphibians are like the canary in the coal mine of environmental problems, yet the ditches around here are full of frogs, tadpoles, small fish, and other small invertebrates. This is a good indication that we are doing a good job of policing the more toxic farm chemicals out of use, while allowing farm production to soar. Something else y'all may not be aware of is how much more efficent these diesel engines are today, and how much fewer emissions they produce. Tier 4 diesel aupplies to farm tractors just like diesel powered trucks.

I grew up farming and am still very close to it, but I work in health care. Remove petrochemicals from the HC industry and we'd be almost back to witch doctors rattling bones, blowing smoke, and waving a chicken foot over you! The amount of plastic waste a hospital produces every day is mind boggling, and it's all produced through chemical means. Even antibiotics could be considered a pesticide, and we haven't even considered fungicides weather used on our bodies or plants.

When I hear folks like AOC spouting about getting rid of chemicals etc. I can't help but wonder, are these people ill educated, or willfully ignorant about what makes the modern world go around?

I know some fellas who raised sweet corn for the local farmers market. What they sprayed for corn ear worms was ineffective due to a rain to soon after application. Well, they took their corn to market and about 2/3 off the ears had a worm at the tip, but they pitched their sale as "our corn wasn't sprayed as often, so the worms are a result". They sold out quicker because people perceived their sweet corn to be safer because it wasn't sprayed as often! Ignorance

[6bg6ga]

I just dump some gasoline or diesel in the weeds

[MT Gianni]

In the mid 60's the data I read had wheat yeilds at about 16-18 bushel per irrigated acre in SE Idaho. Current production with "improved" varieties run closer to 25 bushel dry land and 60+ for irrigated. A lot more people are intolerant of the new varities but they are the only thing keeping the world fed. We have build over so much prime farm ground it is embarrassing. Love them or hate them without pesticides and genetic modifications our diet or our population would dramatically change.

[abunaitoo]

I have a few friends that are Vietnam vets.
Those that were in the field, all say if it wern't for "Agent Orange" they probably wouldn't be here today.
Only one has health problems, and he wasn't in the field. He was on a river barge.
I use Round up and other brands. What ever is cheapest at the time.
Round up works the best, so it seems it's the most powerful.
Others work just as well, just take longer.
Seem lawyers are just looking for big companies to sue.
Big bucks in it, and cost almost nothing.
People hate big companies, because they make big money.
I wonder when they will go after the auto industry????
Vehicles kill more people every year than any other product.
Drug companies are being sued, so maybe vehicle manufactures are next.

[15meter]

Habitat loss in Michigan is the number 1 reason for declining small game numbers, and I suspect in most of country. 50 years ago virtually every farm had hay for livestock that didn't get cut the first time until early June when the pheasants, quail and rabbits were up and running. The few, as in 1 out of 25 farms that still have hay are taking the first cutting by the 10th of May where the haybine is picking up eggs nest and all.

Wheat and oats are virtually gone in Monroe county, 50 years ago it was probably 25% of the acreage. More habitat loss.

Now we have half the frontage sold off for "rural estates" every one has a dog and two cats all running loose because it's the country and it would be cruel to chain up the dog or keep the cats in the house. Talk about killing machines.

Driving down the local roads it was rare to see a hawk, to the point of commenting on it or stopping to watch it. You can't drive down a road now with out seeing them all the time.

Should I mention the dozen upon dozen nesting pairs of eagles that have returned in the last 15 years?

Or the osprey's? Or the packs of coyotes?

Those are all top of the food chain predators. If the chemicals were accumulating, they would be gone not increasing in numbers every year.

I don't know if the numbers still hold up, but farmers as a group were (or are still being) watched pretty close for signs of any spike in cancer rates. Ten or fifteen years ago, farmers as a group had slightly lower rates of cancer than the general population.

Personally, I don't have enough fight in me to literally have to fight for every bit of food and I firmly believe that is where we would be at if we got rid of all herbicides/insecticides.

And I forgot the mink, never saw one growing up, see them running across the road at night regularly now.
I have several friends who live on Lake Erie, on the shore. Mink on the dike in front of their houses is an everyday occurrence.

[owejia]

Going to be using some of these herbicides on some noxious plants and weeds in a few days. I always try to use the least toxic chemicals that will do the job.

[gwpercle]

I wouldn't want to be without Roundup or pesticides. Better living through Chemistry.

Well said . I use Roundup and just follow the directions .

[white eagle]

We have a Roundup thread going, but how many of you, or the general population, stop to think about where we would be without them? Do some here grow ALL your own food using no chemicals, never treat your pets for internal or external parasites, never use pesticides on or in your home. I wonder how many houses would be eaten by termites? Bed bugs and head lice anyone? Ticks and mosquitos galore!

I like my chemicals!

I use a generic round up for weed control on corn and unwanted weeds
I like my chemicals too.

[white cloud]

In the mid 60's the data I read had wheat yeilds at about 16-18 bushel per irrigated acre in SE Idaho. Current production with "improved" varieties run closer to 25 bushel dry land and 60+ for irrigated. A lot more people are intolerant of the new varities but they are the only thing keeping the world fed. We have build over so much prime farm ground it is embarrassing. Love them or hate them without pesticides and genetic modifications our diet or our population would dramatically change.

This is the truth. If they get rid of these evil chemicals, a lot of people are going to get very hungry.

Me? I love glyphosate(Roundup) and purchase the concentrate in five gallon bottles. My wife and I own a decent sized timber tract. Glyphosate really helps when I start another food plot on a thinning row.

[shaune509]

My father started with a 35 acre row crop field in '57, hand line irrigation and all hand weeded by kids and woman 10 t0 20 people in the field 8hrs a day all summer weeding 1000' rows of carrots. In '68 with better weed killers he leased 160 acres, installed 2 center pivot systems and had 2 year round hands and the packing house crew of 10-12 for 60 days. Still made under $ 20000 after expenses, stopped farming in '78.
My point is that without chemicals with the work ethic of the currant generation the fields would be nothing but weeds, no one will work in those old time labor intensive jobs when they want $15/hr to flip hamburgers.
Shaune509

[firefly1957]

Thanks for reminding me I found a small patch of poison ivy the other day I was working on the boat (tune up) in garage that day and looked in rafter to see Carpenter ants in the eve so I sprayed them and some other areas with the latest available poison I liked the older poisons better but it works . Forgot about the ivy until I read this thread !

[Hardcast]

As a man who has been fighting stage 4 non Hodgkins Lymphoma for the last 2.5 years, I read this thread with interest. My father died from Lymphoma 22 years ago at age 65, and a 62 year old first cousin on my Dad's side also died from Lymphoma in January of 2017. I cannot say for sure living on this farm and using weed killer has had anything to due my cancer or not, but it makes me wonder.

[MrWolf]

Sometimes just being near can cause problems. My Mom and Uncle both had thyroid issues. Both our families lived near a super fund site that we were never told was there.