Lead bullets, barrel wear and a big doubt

[nueces5]

We were having coffee in the range after burning powder, and in the talk came the wear of the guns.
We do not agree on whether the boolits make less wear than the FMJ.
I am on the side of those who believe that they produce less wear and tear. And I think this for two reasons.
First: the lead is softer than the brass that covers the FMJ.
Second: We generally use loads with less speed.
But the truth is that we also shoot a lot more than if we used FMJ. (there are so many loads to be tested!)
The doubt
Then one of the boys said that he had a pair of precision rifles that he did not use with boolits. Since always some lead remains in the barrel and affected the precision. I would believe that always a bit of Hoppes and core boy solve the problem, but I'm left doubt, you think?

[nun2kute]

My agreement would be closer to you than him, but if I was shooting precision I'd have the speedo pegged and probably wouldn't use boolits with it anyway. I'm pretty sure lead would help a barrel last a lot longer than copper/brass jackets.

[Lakehouse2012]

There will be many opinions on this topic, with far less data to back it up.... my opinion is that heat from powder burn, moisture from the air (over time) and corrosion from powder do far more to deteriorate a bore, than the bullets themselves. Well fit lead vs poorly fit copper (generally because manufacturers only size to the median caliber diameter) i would be on the side that copper wears a bore faster. Its a harder material and if not fit well, will create more friction during movement down the bore... my $0.02.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[jmort]

I am of the opinion that cast lead bullets will not ever wear out a barrel as a general matter.
You can't go 4,000 fps, but for gereral purposes there is no practical limit.

[tomme boy]

I put together a Savage in 308win a few years ago. It had a Shilen SS selct match barrel. It was their top of the line barrel they offer. It was built as a target plinker. I shot it over 3 years and put over 7500 lead bullets through it.

So I was needing to move on and do something else for a target gun. I wanted to make sure there was some life left in the barrel. I sent it to Goodsteel on here to look it over. He called me and left a message he wanted to talk. I thought this is not good. So I called and he ask me the round count. After I told him what I shot he tells me that it has the same wear that a regular barrel would have after shooting about 1K rounds of jacketed. So he cleaned it and put a new crown on it as he said he did not like it. He said there was nothing wrong with it but he wanted to clean it up.

So, as long as you are careful to not get and kind of abrasive on the bullets they will last a LONG time. I also had a 22rf Browning pistol. It had well over 30K rounds through it. It shot great still. The only wear it had was there was a slight grove from where the built fed in to the chamber on the side wall of the chamber. This thing was used very hard and not kept in the greatest of condition. I was young and just wanted to blast rounds. It would still shoot about a 1" group at 50yds when I sold it.

[mattw]

I am of the opinion that cast lead bullets will not ever wear out a barrel as a general matter.
You can't go 4,000 fps, but for gereral purposes there is no practical limit.

Shooting some really overbore rifles, I would have to disagree with the above. Bringing the velocity way up is done by using some really nasty stick powders, the erosion caused by the powder, burning powder and I believe jacketed bullet kill the throats on things like 6mm/284 very quickly. Accuracy at 600+ yards starts to fall off around 1500 to 1600 rounds.

Now in small cartridge rifles this does not really seem to happen for thousands of rounds, if the barrel is well cared for and not overheated.

[GhostHawk]

Well there are exceptions to every rule.

But IMO there are a few prime points to consider.

A Jacketed are not lubricated, cast is. I think all other factors being equal this can make a difference.

B I agree with what was said above that most cast are shot at a slower speed. I think this can make a difference.

C If copper fouling was not an issue they would not have come up with new anti copper fouling powders.

Last, I do believe that speed kills, and some powders are not good. Lilgun as example. Flame cutting on frames of revolvers comes to mind. What does that do to the inside of your barrel?

Almost all factory Jacketed rounds are 2400 fps or better.
Most cast boolit shooters I know are perfectly happy with 800 to 2000 fps. That will make a difference on wear.

Not being a Metalurgist I can't prove most of the above. But it is what I think. And as such is worth exactly what you think it is.

You all have yourself a fine morning and enjoy this summer weather.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I believe HEAT is the primary enemy of barrel, given proper protection from weather/humidity/whatever. Mostly boolits use smaller powder charges at lower pressures creating less heat. Friction due to bullet speed and hardness moving through the bore also creates heat, again the lubricated lead slug is lower than the bare copper surface. Copper fouling is a result of speed, copper jacketed bullets shot at 1400-1800fps show very little signs of 'coppering', mostly due to bore roughness. Heat 'CORROSION', burning of the steel is why the big cases actually do BURN up barrels. Erosion, wearing from abrasives is much less of a problem. Coatings of wax, moly, 'other' that coat the barrel interior do help reduce heat through reducing friction. I believe they also lay down a film that helps protect the barrel from the heat corrosion. A 223 lasts much longer than a 220 Swift, even with jacketed bullets, it is the heat burning steel. Lead bullets aren't run in front of huge powder charges at high pressure, saving barrels. The smaller the powder charge, the slower the rate of fire, the slower a barrel will wear.

[Rich/WIS]

Heat is an issue, although not really applicable to our shooting it doesn't take many rounds through a MG to get the barrel too hot to handle. Even a semi fired rapidly will heat well past the point where it will burn you badly. In my experience with bolt guns 5-10 rounds of jacketed fired over a minute or two and you will learn quickly not to grab the barrel. On the other hand the same number of moderate cast loads will leave a barrel warm, but usually not hot enough to burn.

[KCSO]

In 60 years of shooting I have never seen a barrel worn out by shooting cast bullets. I had a 1911 that went over 10,000 rounds of cast and shot as good as it did when new. I got a hold of a 22 BSA club gun that had been used sine the 1930's and after cleaning the bore looked and shot perfect. Wire brush cleaning and neglect cause way more damage and wear then shooting sensible cast loads.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I can say with absolute certainty that I have worn out a pistol barrel. My custom built M&P race gun in 9mm was my USPSA open gun for about 4yrs. When i built the gun it got a KKM Precision 9mm barrel that I had Ti nitrided (exterior finish only) that had been in the gun from day one. I handloaded all the ammo for it. After 50,000+rds it finally put it's hat on the rack. It won't group any better than about 6" at 15yrds now and it was a tack driver. I slugged the bore and the bullet barely had any rifling engraved into it though it looks okay. Most of the life of the barrel it was fed Berry's plated bullets and about 2000 Precision Delta jacketed. No cast or coated through this gun, the popple holes and compensator will scavenge lead off the bullets and foul the comp up and I don't want to breathe atomized lead. I would consider what little jacketed that I shot as negligible in the life of the barrel. The Berry's are closer to cast that jacketed. Yes they are copper plated but not as ridged as an actual jacket. The loads I ran are extremely hot as far as 9mm goes, well beyond SAAMI spec. It varied a little over the life of the barrel but generally 124gr bullets at 1475fps and some 115gr around 1520fps with chamber pressure estimation via Quickload to be around 45,000psi and up to 50,000psi. More akin to .357 in performance than 9mm. Par for the course in USPSA Open Division. I'm not at all disappointed in the barrel life, it held up quite well. My Production / Carry optics gun has about 20,000 rds on it which are almost exclusively Blue Bullets coated lead and much more modest load performance. It still looks great, still going strong.

[country gent]

I to believe most wear comes from powders and charge weights there of. Once a barrel smooths up the wear slows way down from the bullet. Once the bullet is engraved by the leade friction forces drop a lot. ( even slug a barrel in a presss? once the bullet engraves it goes through easily unless there are tight spots in it). A high round count barrel also shows this effect in that it will have a taper shot into it. Even with jacketed bullets and high counts the barrels rifling shows sharp square corners not rounded off. ( I have seen rifling with the trailing corner rounded from high counts of paper patched bullets) What you do see a lot of in high intensity rounds is the dry cracked throats and leades from powder blasting and heat erosion. this extends throats leades making the bullet jump excessive.

Another part of this is small bores that use large charges of powder exhibit faster barrel wear than the "milder" rounds in the same caliber. A 22 hornet lasts a long time a 220 swift loaded to full house may go 3000 rds. My coarse gun in 243 win with 1-7 barrel was normally good for around 2500 rds. Big charges of slow burning powders and heavy for caliber bullets,

Some case designs lend them selves to extending barrel life also. A shoulder neck combination that keeps the first hit of powder gasses and unburnt powder inside the neck, straighter cases and the longer neck produce a venture effect that may "funnel" this into the center of the bore away from the edges. Look at the original barrel burner the 220 swift long body taper shoulder angle and med length neck. CAses stretch and flow a lot faster and the throats burnt out at alarming rates

[Thumbcocker]

I read about Ruger standard model .22's in South Africa that went over 100,000 rounds.

[reddog81]

Try sizing a jacketed bullet down .001 and then try sizing a lead bullet down .003. Your arm will wear out much quicker with the jacketed bullet. Anyone who thinks the lead bullet will wear out a barrel faster, everything else being equal, shouldn't be listened to.

With large caliber rifles worse case scenario is the the throat erosion would be the same, with most the damage resulting from the heat of the powder blast.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I read about Ruger standard model .22's in South Africa that went over 100,000 rounds.

I own a S&W 617, (10rd 22lr) that was owned by a local range till a guy took his life with it at said range. Between an employee that had a fondness for it and its past 2 owners before me and rental rack time, rough estimate is the round count is probably 300,000rds give or take. Its not in bad shape, pretty decent actually but you can tell its had a lot of time on it. The action is absolutely glass smooth and still very accurate. The 22LR is pretty gentle on guns so I can believe some ridiculous numbers.

[Winger Ed.]

This was the subject of a article in a old Lyman book.
Most barrels get condemned from the heat that causes throat erosion, not wear of the rifling past the throat.
With jacketed ammo at factory level pressures, 5,000 rounds is a normal expectation before accuracy falls off.
Closer to 2,000 with a barn burning round like a .220 Swift.

For their test:
They took a new rifle, I think a Win. model 70, in a .30 cal. and fired it 40,000 rounds with cast.
Then ground off the top of the chamber to measure for wear, and inspect for throat erosion.

They found 'no measurable wear'.


For throat eroded barrels, seating the boolit farther out will sometimes get back decent accuracy.

There used to be a old gunsmith here that did a lot of custom barrel work for REAL! serious shooters.
When they got a new barrel, he'd re-sell the one that was pulled off.

For about 1/3 the price of a new premium bull barrel, he'd cut about a inch off the old one,
then rechamber, thread, and install it for you.
He never had any complaints from guys that fancied themselves as redneck bench rest shooters.

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone who thinks the lead bullet will wear out a barrel faster, everything else being equal, shouldn't be listened to.

Ah but that is a pretty bold statement.....perhaps not "faster" but barrels can be worn out (shot out, etc.) regardless of the type of bullet used.

Fact is it is the amount of heat, the duration of the heat and the pressure of each round fired that causes throat erosion or barrels to shoot out. Has nothing to do with the hardness of the bullet. Also, the rate of fire (has to do with the amount of heat of the barrel during firing) has a great effect on barrel life. Cast bullet loads as most use just do not heat up the barrel as fast because the reduced loads do not generate as much heat.

In rifles steel jacketed, copper jacketed and lead bullets will wear out (shoot out) barrels fairly evenly if the above factors are the same. Reduced loads using smaller amounts of faster burning powder, which is the kind of load mostly used with cast bullets, produce a lot less heat at a shorter duration time of heat and at a much lower pressure. That is why barrels last longer with the reduced load type of cast bullet loads.

Having shot out numerous barrels over the years I have found given the same load and rate of fire it doesn't matter what the bullet type is. The fact is the throats will erode (wear) the same. For example; the last 3+ years I have put over 3,000 rounds through my 30x60 XCB rifle. Those have only been with cast bullets with the greater majority being the NOE 30 XCB 310-165-FN. Also the vast majority, probably 99%, have been with AA4350 loads generating 47 - 52,000 psi (measured, not guestimated). Using a bore scope I can see the throat erosion is very similar to what my match .308W and 30-06 barrels exhibited at the same round count (with jacketed bullet match loads).

[castalott]

I remember an article where a shooter wore a barrel until it wouldn't group. Then he set it back 2 inches or so to remove the worn throat. The rechambered job shot very well again...

The hard steel barrels of centerfire combined with the ultra low speed poofer loads I shoot makes for long barrel life. 4 grains of some pistol powder combined with a 130gr or so bullet makes little heat or wear. I jokingly tell everyone that the trigger will wear off before the barrel wears out.

Now improper use of a cleaning rod can ruin a barrel in one or two sessions. I have bought milsurps with pristine bores except for the last 1/8 inch where the off center cleaning rod wore the crown.

YMMV

[country gent]

Some matches are harder on a rifle than others also due to coarse of fire in the match. One that comes to mind is The rattle battle team match curing CMP?DCM week of the Nationals. Roughly 120 rds in 40-45 mins. starting at 600 yds and moving down to 200 yds. The lie command is Load and be ready 1 min to fire as many rounds as possible. Double timed to next line 1 min prep and load and be ready. When I shot it with the State team using M1A in 308 when finished the barrel would raise blisters if touched. Seen Garands with the rear handguard smoking from the heat. THis was harder than firing several coarse matches.

[BudRow]

As far as bullet friction is concerned I believe that a lead/tin boolit has an almost neglectable affect on barrel wear. After all babbitt alloy is lead/tin in different proportions and is used as bearing material. I am amazed that automotive crank and rod bearings can last for many thousands of miles.

[M-Tecs]

Different correct answers depending on how you ask the question. Barrel wear is dependent on the cartridge.

In a 22LF barrels wear out from powder/priming compound blasting. You can see it with a borescope at 20,000 rounds 6 o'clock starting a little in front of the chamber. .22 rimfire ammunition priming compound contains what they call an "igniter" in the primer compound which is ground glass. When the rim is crushed by the firing pin, the glass grinds with the mix to detonate the primer compound. On centerfire the anvil in the primer does the same thing.

In a 45ACP jacketed bullets will wear the rifling out faster. I have seen some competition 45 ACP barrels that the lands were almost gone. These were on military pistol teams barrels and fired jacketed bullets exclusively. It does take a lots of shooting. I have no verification of this but a very famous Bullseye builder claimed it took about 50K of jacketed and about 500K of lead to wear out a 45 ACP barrel.

On a cartridge like the 6.5 x 284 long range competitive barrel life is limited and is normally around 2K but some go south sooner. It is from gas/heat erosion in the throat area. While not normally a cast bullet cartridge using cast barrel life would increase greatly due to lower pressures and throat temperatures. Stepping up to paper patch and using the same powders/pressure I would be surprised if there was much difference since the determining factor again is the gas/heat erosion of the throat area not bullet friction.

[Drew P]

Copper will foul a barrel and basically plate the metal on the inside. This is a good thing, it acts as a lubricant and seals small cracks in the surface of the metal. Accuracy of a precision rifle will increase with copper fouling up to a point where it starts to degrade again. So, a true marksman will not want a super clean barrel, and won’t clean it obsessively. So, I can believe that it’s the throat only that wears a barrel out in most cases. And I can also believe that cast boolits wear the throat less.

[DonH]

My high-power competitor friends tell me it is throat erosion that kills accuracy first. The rifling can look fine but heat from powder burning that erodes the throat also erodes accuracy. This would have more to do with powder choice and load intensity than projectile choice.

[Bigslug]

There's typically less load intensity with cast, so if one really wanted to compare apples to apples, testing would probably best be done in a handgun caliber or less intense rifle platform - maybe in a single shot like a Thompson Center so as not to muddy the waters with discussions of cylinder throats and gaps. .44 Mag or .30-30 Win would probably be my choice as both cast and jacketed can be loaded to pretty much identical speeds.

Unless you're one of the clever cats over on the swaging sub forum, jacketed will not have anything close to the same ability to precisely fit a bullet to a specific gun as cast. And here is where The Scientist needs to ask this question "If jacketed DOES wear a barrel faster, is it due to properties of the jacket, or to the bullet needing to obturate to a greater degree to seal the bore - making for greater gaps that cause increased flame cutting in the throat area?" Testing would therefore require an equally well-fitting jacketed bullet.

Next, as mentioned, cast has lube. True, it's more of an ablative gasket material for our purposes, but there's no denying wax + grease = slippery stuff. To stay in apples-to-apples testing mode, you'd have to look at applying lube to a jacketed slug. The Barnes TSX family of solid copper bullets has what amounts to lube grooves and driving bands that could be filled. This might also serve to level the playing field somewhat on exact bore fit, as it will help somewhat with sealing if the slug/bore diameter combo is a smidge off perfect.

So here's the homework assignment for anybody with the cash, time, and inclination: Buy a TC rifle with two barrels produced at the same time, both in .30-30; buy a bunch of Barnes 150 grain TSX flat noses and find a mold for a plain-base bullet (gas checks = too close to jacketed = skewed science) that has roughly the same bearing surface & can be filled with about the same amount of lube. Load them to the same speed with the same powder. Clean them with the same method. Drop a throat erosion gauge in it every thousand rounds and report back.

OR. . .

We can accept that if you can afford to shoot out a barrel, you can probably afford a new barrel or rifle, and that life may not be worth complicating with so many questions. ;-)

[Three44s]

Barrel erosion (hot rounds) and poor cleaning rod edicate are in first place.

J Word wear second.

Lead boolits .... a distant third, think distant like the planet Pluto in our solar system!

Best regards

Three44s

[reddog81]

Using a bore scope I can see the throat erosion is very similar to what my match .308W and 30-06 barrels exhibited at the same round count (with jacketed bullet match loads).

I can't tell if your trying to dispute my claim... Either way, equal erosion is not more erosion. Like I said the worst case scenario would be the same amount of erosion because the bullet is not the primary factor for loads with 50,000+ PSI.

[Larry Gibson]

Was agreeing with you. First sentence of my post; Ah but that is a pretty bold statement.....perhaps not "faster" but barrels can be worn out (shot out, etc.) regardless of the type of bullet used.

[GregLaROCHE]

This really should be a two part question. The throat and the rest of the barrel. Given the same power loads for the cartridges, throat wear should be the same. There are rounds known as barrel burners, but I am pretty sure that’s mostly the throats.

The rest of the barrel is another story. That is where one could argue that lead is softer than copper, and therefore should wear the barrel less. Is this true or not? That is the question I think many of us are talking about. I can’t say. I don’t have any facts to base an opinion on. I hope others do.

[GregLaROCHE]

As far as bullet friction is concerned I believe that a lead/tin boolit has an almost neglectable affect on barrel wear. After all babbitt alloy is lead/tin in different proportions and is used as bearing material. I am amazed that automotive crank and rod bearings can last for many thousands of miles.

I hear what you are saying, I don’t think you are comparing apples to apples. Crankshafts run on a cushion of oil and normally shouldn’t touch the Babbitt.

[Walks]

I used to have a Savage #112 in 220Swift, about 40yrs ago. I shot that rifle on a constant basis with Sierra 52/53gr bullets and IMR3031 or IMR4895. Hotter loads then anything published today. As many as 100rds in a session, never less then 60. about 2-3 times a month. After about a year, accuracy began to fall off. It was properly cleaned, but rarely allowed to cool off enough. Hoppe's 3 wet patches, then 2 dry ones every 20 rounds.

Dad told me to seat bullets a bit farther out. That worked for about 5-6 months. Then I sold it to a Dealer at the Gunshow. I sure had my fun. There were no Affordable chronographs in those days, so I don't really know what kind of velocities I was getting.

On the other hand I bought a NM Ruger Blackhawk in .357mag, 6 1/2" bbl in 1974. In 45yrs I've put at least 50,000 rds of the Lyman #358156 Cast of Straight Linotype over a Hotter then heck charge of 2400. Plus at least as many lighter loads.
I can't shoot anywhere close to as well as I did in my 20's, but it still holds 2" from a rest at 25yds.

There appears to be no bbl wear that I can see.

I think most of the bbl wear stories date back to 100yrs ago, to the days of Cupro-Nickel jackets and more corrosive powders then we have today. My DAD used to have an old 1911 bbl that had washed out rifling, from shooting corrosive G.I. ammo with those hard jackets. It came out of an old 1911 Springfield made in 1915 and not arsenal upgraded.

Just all I know.

[John Boy]

Jacket bullets are more detrimental to rifle bores than lead bullets:
* Jacket fouling is a metal buildup and the worst ... This type of fouling is the hardest and most difficult to remove as it needs to be broken down chemically with powerful solvents capable of literally eating the copper away.
* Hardness comparison ... Copper, in addition to being difficult to remove is very abrasive as well. The BHN number on copper jacketed bullets runs about 35 BHN; which is way above the hardest of cast bullets (21-22BHN). Plus add in the fact that the bullets offer no lubrication for the copper unless you are using Molly coated bullets

[Hick]

Ive got over 10,000 boolits through my Win 94 30-30, and it still seems just as accurate as the day I got it.

[nueces5]

After reading all the answers, and despite the difference I have with the language, I think there are a couple of pretty sensible points.
-Excessive cleaning is not a good friend of the barrels.
-The throat deteriorates much more quickly than the rest of the rifling. And it is responsible for the lack of precision at first.
-Boolits wear less our weapons.-
-I do not worry anymore and I'm going to buy more primers, powder, lead and linotype.

[waksupi]

I wish my memory was better, but I believe someone could spend some quality time looking into Felix' old posts.

I think he stated that throat erosion in a cast bullet barrel was not a bad thing, and that if you could find a benchrest shooter with a bore size you like, get a take off barrel from them. Many won't even have 300 rounds through them. Enough throat erosion to take away gilt edge accuracy for high velocity jacketed bullets, makes for a nice transition for the softer lead projectile.

[M-Tecs]

Waksupi I can't comment on the Felix throat erosion subject but in the 70's and 80's it was widely believed the tapered barrels gave the best performance with lead bullets. This was a selling feature for Colt Pythons. In the early days of PPC gun Smolt's were all the rage. This is a Python barrel installed on a K-frame Smith.


This is some opinions from a brenchrest site on barrel life. Some switch very quickly and some not so much. I do remember who it was but the on the nationals with a barrel that had over 3K on it.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?80875-Barrel-Life

[castalott]

I've read everything here and link above. I would agree with about everything ( I'm not an expert nor do I play one on tv.) with this gentle thought. Barrel heat is a major factor but not as one notices it on the outside. The only temps that really matter are in the throat. If we could talk Larry into measuring throat temps vs total temp potential of the powder charge vs rate of fire, we all might have a better understanding of the problem... or maybe not....

Good thread....

Dale

[fredj338]

If you read some of Elmer Keith's writings, they talked about shooting 1911 with ball ammo & lead bullets in his armory days. They were wearing out barrels with ball ammo in something like 10K rds, not sure of the exact round count. It makes sense that a lead or coated lead bullet, even soft plated, would have less wear on any barrel.