Trying to get a TC Hawken to shoot RB

[godzilla]

Hi Guys. I have an old TC hawken from a kit. The original barrel was rusted out so I ordered one from TC apparently right before they quit making them. I think it was Fox River outfitters or some name like that. I remeber considering a GM barrel at the time and now really regret it because I have never been able to get this TC factory barrel to shoot. It has the counter bored muzzle and ball/patch combos start easy enough but I cannot get them to group. Is there some trick to these barrels? I have tried swaged and cast balls, thick and thin patches, spit and bore butter. Am I missing something?

[Themoose]

I put together a kit years ago, 50 cal... it shot great with .490 round balls I cast from pure lead and used a .015" lubed patch made from pillow ticking... my best target load was 62 gr. of black powder... hard to tell from your post what you actually have... I would suggest that you go with one bullet and try to work up an accurate load by slightly increasing powder and compare groups.... start with a 50 at about 55 grains... shoot a group, then another group with 60 and another with 65gr... see which one shoots the best.. then add or subtract a grain and try again.

[brewer12345]

Mine does well with .015 prelubed patches and 50 to 80 grains of powder. The other thing you could try to improve accuracy is put a wad between the powder and the patched ball. I use wonder wads (prelubed wool) under my conicals and it makes them go from a pattern to a nice group. I have been told that the wads do similar for PRB, but haven't tried it because my focus is on an elk load (which means conicals).

[scattershot]

T/C muzzleloaders have shallow rifling, in my experience. I had best results with a larger diameter ball and a thinner patch. The wad over the powder helps, too.

I never shot one of the counterbored barrels, but that could present problems, I don’t know. Also, best accuracy is obtained with light to moderate charges in that 1:48 twist barrel.

You don’t mention the caliber or powder charge. That may help diagnose your problem.

[Tasbay]

My TC Hawken .50 flinter likes 80gr homemade B Powder, a ticking patch lightly/dampened with olive oil and a .495 soft round ball. Group size differance is noticeable between .490 & .495 balls.
Found my Pedersoli Traditional Hawken caplock likes the same load.

[tomme boy]

TC rifles like the 0.495" balls. Play with patch thickness. And DO NOT BEAT THE BALL DOWN THE BARREL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a long range rod and use it.

Try to seat the ball with the same pressure each time. Try to find the patches you shot to see how they held up. This will tell you if it is too thin and if you need a different lube. I have went to using a felt lubed wad under the ball and patch. Put the wad between the patched RB and the powder. This has helped a lot. And try not to run them too hot.

I have a couple of the NewEnglanders. One has the counterbore and the other does not. The one that does not shoots way better than the one that does. And the one that does has a perfect shiny new bore. The older one that does not has a pitted bore all the way up and down. I picked it up at a gunshow for $50. It is my best shooting gun!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I think it was Fox River outfitters or some name like that. I remeber considering a GM barrel at the time and now really regret it because I have never been able to get this TC factory barrel to shoot. It has the counter bored muzzle and ball/patch combos start easy
I believe you are talking about TC's QLA Muzzle System (Quick, Load, Accurizor).
In the 1990s I bought a QLA barrel from Fox Ridge outfitters in 36 caliber for a Seneca. I received a beautiful barrel that is accurate when using a .350 RB with a standard pillow ticking lubed patch.

I wonder if there is a defect or flaw or damage to the area where the rifling ends in your barrel?
Maybe have a look at it with an endoscope.

[arcticap]

If all else fails and as a last resort, I would consider cutting the QLA part of the barrel off and having it re-crowned.

[RMc]

If all else fails and as a last resort, I would consider cutting the QLA part of the barrel off and having it re-crowned.

Indeed so. It is not uncommon to find late production TC - QLA barrels with the counter bore slightly off bore center - with attendant accuracy problems.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=RMc;4656685]Indeed so. It is not uncommon to find late production TC - QLA barrels with the counter bore slightly off bore center - with attendant accuracy problems.[/QUOTE

That makes three of us !!!!!!

[godzilla]

Hmmm, I never considered the Counter bore being off center. That will have to be my next step. I have tried felt wads, hornets nest wads, every powder charge from 50g to 100g. Both 2f and 3F powders and ever combo of patch and ball I could come up with. Every combo produces patterns not groups. Time to get out the saw!

[pietro]

I would consider cutting the QLA part of the barrel off and having it re-crowned.




Two things:

Has the Fox River barrel's rate of twist been measured/checked ?

It may have a 1:28" twist meant for conicals ILO T/C's standard 1:48" compromise (PRB/conicals) twist.



If the twist is 1:48" or 1:60" (the other 2 twist rates t/C used), then inspect the crown.



BTW, the barrel may not need to be cut to re-crown the end of the rifling inside the QLA - just re-crown it with an appropriately sized tool.


.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

the QLA barrels often suck. Especially with conical bullets.

[oldracer]

I have a very, very early TC Hawken 50 caliber rifle and it took a little bit of work to get it to shoot well. Here are the steps I took as told to me by my mentor:
- Made sure trigger was adjusted best as possible, I.E. just touch front trigger to drop hammer.
- Set up at 50 yards
- Used a Lead Sled to insure "I" would not have an effect on the shots.
- Bought several thickness commercial patches and made a bunch from pillow ticking.
- Bought some 0.490 and 0.495 diameter round balls.
- With breech plug out, determined which loaded better I.E. start ball on lubed patch with short starter then pushed ball down all the way with one smooth motion. I ended with .490 balls and lubed (Bore Butter) pillow ticking. Others were either too loose or too tight.
- Started with 60 grains of Goex FFG and went up in 5 grain jumps and determined 80 grains was best. The powder load seems to have less affect on grouping than ball diameter/patch.
- Tried wiping one wet/one dry after each shot and not wiping until 5 shots, ETC and found wiping worked best.
- Shot various combinations noting in my book what worked and what did not.

That has worked on all the rifles I have assembled over the last 8 years or so.

[tomme boy]

All of mine shoot better with 3F than 2F. Have you tried that?

[243winxb]

The patched ball needs to slide down the barrel with little force. KEEP THE BALL ROUND.

Put more powder down the tube. Give ball more RPMs.

[1Hawkeye]

Sounds like Pietro might be on to something what is the barrel length? if its longer than 28" its round ball twist 1:66 which means its definitely a qla issue but if its a 28" it could also be a fast twist 1:28 barrel. Which will shoot a ball ok but with a charge lighter than 50 grs like 30 to 45 grs of 3 fg. All together I would put my money on the fact its a qla barrel. T/C ment it to be a good thing but anyone who was a savvy bp shooter hated them and this was the reason.

[indian joe]

The patched ball needs to slide down the barrel with little force. KEEP THE BALL ROUND.

Put more powder down the tube. Give ball more RPMs.

He's been up to 100grains! got the more powder issue well covered - something else is wrong here - I would be suspicious of the coned muzzle - but it sounds like time to start over with the basics ...................
Clean it - check the bore with a scope - check the twist rate - inspect the crown with a magnifying glass - check the bedding (yeah that can effect a ML I have one hook breech gun that has to be put together tight and right to shoot its best) - check that yr balls are round and even weight - check that patches are not torn or burnt - cut a patch on the muzzle to get the right size .............all the basic stuff

[OverMax]

As I recall Fox Ridge only sold factory T/c shooting products as the store was a outlet to accommodate T/c mail-order & phone order customers. Unlike other gun stores of the time Fox Ridge offered the services of a Custom Build Shop. Beautiful weaponry creations built by Thompson's factory in house Gun Smiths.
I purchased a number of their Custom Hawken & Renegade builds because they were the >best of the best.

Um~ staying on point.
All seven T/c's that I own have that Accurizer {false} muzzle. All shoot 1" 1-1/2" 100 yard groups. Two rifles I prefer to hunt with {45 & 54} Hawken's were ordered through Fox Ridge's Custom Shop and were tuned and fitted with factory Rd Ball Only barrels before delivery. I also have a GM quicky twister {1-28} drop-in barrel to swap out the Rd Ball barrel on my 45 Hawkens.
If I were to compete? There is no doubt in my mind I would rather shoot the Ball barrels before the GM sabo bullet shooter. Those 2-rifles are that 100 yard accurate.
The one thing I noticed early on. GM Barrels did not have a false loading muzzle. So I highly doubt the T/c Accurizor inhibits accuracy. Others stating T/c Accurizor barrels are inaccurate? >Baloney!!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

do some research, the TC qla with conicals has been a pest and most folks, cut them off and re-crown. These are mostly on the encore/omega guns, but some of the older models have shown their ugly face now and then.

[barnabus]

use a .495 RB before hacking your barrel and try 70-80 grains 3f black powder not a substitute. run a spit patch down barrel after every shot. ive owned over a dozen TCs and they all shoot great. i run a a 495 ball and a oxyoke prelubed patch and it drills. if you are not shooting off a bench and bags you will never know what the gun is capable of.

[koger]

I have 2 Omegas by TC, and neither will not shoot a powerbelt bullet worth a hoot. Any other bullet/sabot or maxi ball will group into 1" or less at 100yds. I had two customers who wanted their Omega, and Impact to shoot the Powerbelts, with the same problems I had. I conviced them both to let me cut and recrown the barrels where the rifling starts, and both rifles shoot Powerbelts into a ragged hole for 3 shots at 100yds. That being said, I have had tow TC Hawkens with QLA's that shot roundballs fine, with .495 and a .015 linen patch that I lubed, but not nearly as accurate as those without the QLA. Just my findings on about 12 rifles over the years.

[indian joe]

I have 2 Omegas by TC, and neither will not shoot a powerbelt bullet worth a hoot. Any other bullet/sabot or maxi ball will group into 1" or less at 100yds. I had two customers who wanted their Omega, and Impact to shoot the Powerbelts, with the same problems I had. I conviced them both to let me cut and recrown the barrels where the rifling starts, and both rifles shoot Powerbelts into a ragged hole for 3 shots at 100yds. That being said, I have had tow TC Hawkens with QLA's that shot roundballs fine, with .495 and a .015 linen patch that I lubed, but not nearly as accurate as those without the QLA. Just my findings on about 12 rifles over the years.

I counterbored a Marcheno sharps ages ago (it was set up properly in a four jaw and done right) - it shot ok before but used to lead like crazy on a couple of tiny rust marks at the muzle, previous owner had it in storage too long.............anyway about 5/8th inch didnt cure the leading, but spread my bench groups from 2 inch to 4 inch at 100yards. Something to do with the exit gases around the boolit base in the counterbored bit I reckoned. And I would bet it be worse with a sabot than a solid bore size slug .

All of this was because I was bein lazy and didnt want to recut the front sight dovetail - so I hacksawed a bit over two inches off it, recrowned it, recut the sight dovetail with a triangle file ............all good.

[Buzzard II]

Cut off the QLA, recrown the barrel, and be done with it. That, or sell it and buy a new GM barrel. TOTW has them with RB twist. Good luck.
Bob

[Tom W.]

My first T/C muzzle loader wouldn't hit a barn if I was inside of it. I sent the whole thing back to T/C and they sent me another. I changed the sights on it to some of the fixed sights that they had and could put three shots into a Skoal can @ 75 yards. I never killed anything but tree rats with it, but they didn't have a chance. I was using 2f as the paperwork suggested, but 3f did a bit better, and Pyrodex P did the best.

[bedbugbilly]

Maybe a candidate to send to Bob Hoyt for a re-bore?

[northmn]

My biggest problem with round ball accuracy came from trying Black powder substitutes like 777 or Pyrodex. I have a rifle I used in matches that would only pattern that stuff at 100 yards and tightened back up again using GOEX. It is a 50 cal. Been trying ot use the other "stuff" up in shotgun cartridges.

DEP

[Good Cheer]

My problem child QLA was a .54 New Englander.
Now it's relined and shoots soft cast 45-70 molds very well.

With the QLA when it was tearing patches and would make you hammer a plain based boolit to get it in...
The dadgum counterbore was flat bottomed with a sharp edge. Goofy.
So I called TC and got it right from the guys in the shop, yeah that's the way it was designed!

[indian joe]

My problem child QLA was a .54 New Englander.
Now it's relined and shoots soft cast 45-70 molds very well.

With the QLA when it was tearing patches and would make you hammer a plain based boolit to get it in...
The dadgum counterbore was flat bottomed with a sharp edge. Goofy.
So I called TC and got it right from the guys in the shop, yeah that's the way it was designed!

Stoopid!!!!! (design)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My problem child QLA was a .54 New Englander.
Now it's relined and shoots soft cast 45-70 molds very well.

With the QLA when it was tearing patches and would make you hammer a plain based boolit to get it in...
The dadgum counterbore was flat bottomed with a sharp edge. Goofy.
So I called TC and got it right from the guys in the shop, yeah that's the way it was designed!

WOW, my 36 cal QLA is surely not "flat bottomed with a sharp edge."
As I said before, mine loads and shoots great ...apparently I got the only good one?

[indian joe]

WOW, my 36 cal QLA is surely not "flat bottomed with a sharp edge."
As I said before, mine loads and shoots great ...apparently I got the only good one?

Yeah that should be just a gentle cone? that takes about half the rifling (lands) off - done by a perfectionist machinist it works good - anything less than perfection takes away from accuracy (some or a lot depending)

[725]

I'm with bedbugbilly. Send it off to Hoyt and get the barrel that will shoot the boo lit of your choice. Want to shoot conicals, get a twist custom for that weight / caliber. Want to shoot round balls, get that set up. Lots of the in-betweener's shoot both ball and boolit quite well, but one that is purpose made for your choice of boolit is wonderful. Not that expensive either.

[Tom W.]

Just a passing thought.....



Years ago Butler Creek made some poly patches. The first ones were double ended and I used them for target shooting, putting a bit of lube under the ball and filling the bottom with lube. They shot wonderfully. When hunting I just put a dab of lube under the ball. Later on they changed the design so the bottom was flat and the top was cupped, they shot well but I liked the old design better. The only reason for the dab of lube was to help keep the ball stuck in the patch. At least that's what I thought.

If you can find them, if they are still available, you might want to give them a try.

[brewer12345]

Fwiw, I was playing with prb loads last weekend with my hawken using black mz, 490 balls and 015 patches. Groups were ok at 50 yards, but nothing to write home about. I tried using an over powder lubed wad, and it was like waving a magic wand. Groups got tiny and stayed that way even with higher powder charges.

[barnabus]

Fwiw, I was playing with prb loads last weekend with my hawken using black mz, 490 balls and 015 patches. Groups were ok at 50 yards, but nothing to write home about. I tried using an over powder lubed wad, and it was like waving a magic wand. Groups got tiny and stayed that way even with higher powder charges.

what over powder wad were you using?

[Edward]

Experiment with wads ,Lubed /dry /cards (most all will work) Ed

[brewer12345]

I use the ox yoke pre lubed ones sized to the bore (so use the ones they sell for 50 in your 50).

[Pioneer2]

If all else fails and as a last resort, I would consider cutting the QLA part of the barrel off and having it re-crowned.

Many of these barrels shot crappy as is and were cured by cutting off the uneeded QLA and recrowning.

[SSGOldfart]

My fix was in the ball,what I had cast as .490 turned out to be .4895 to .485, then tried Hornady swayed and found the keep there size better then my cast did pure lead does shrink with age. Just a thought that might help before you start cutting the Rifle barrel.

[godzilla]

Hey Guys!

I just wanted to start by saying thank-you to all that took the time to help me out with this very disappointing barrel. It was one of those projects that kept getting pushed aside but no longer. After taking a look in the bore and seeing deep tool marks all the way down the bore I gave Mr Hoyt a call as some suggested on here. After speaking with him I decided to have it bored over to .54 caliber and rifled for round balls. I just mailed it out and cant wait to try out the results! Thanks again I really appreciate it!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Godzilla,

Back in the day I started with a Thompson Center Hawken, it shot fair.
Then I decided I wanted to build a kit, I decided on a CVA Frontier Rifle.
The only problem was at the time I could buy a completed rifle cheaper than the kit.
So I purchased the rifle, stripped the blueing off the barrel and attempted to brown it.
That rifle would shoot 10 times better with round ball than the Thompson Center.
A slow twist is needed for round balls, 1/66 is what the old CVA's were, the old Thompson's were 1/48.
I'm sure you will be satisfied with your re-bore, as long as the rifling is correct.
Unfortunately we don't do much round ball shooting anymore, it gets harder with age to see the targets.

AntiqueSledMan.

[nelsonted1]

I shot.my Tc hawken trying to find great.accuracy. it was good a enough In all the loads to 100 grains in 777 black and pirodex. then for.some.reason I dropped.to 40 grains of 777 then black with 490 balls and SHAZZAM! Did I have a shooter! I feel for.people.writing about.accuracy searching with muzzleloader.

[godzilla]

I tried everything I could with this barrel. Could have bought another barrel for all the testing I have shot down it :(. What finally led me to a re-bore vs cutting off the counter-bore was the thought I could do all the work after cutting and it still could have a flaw causing my accuracy issues that was not the nuzzle after all. After giving the bore a close look I realized it had deep chatter marks all the way down it. Its not TC best work. A real shame since I spent a good bit more money at the time for TC over Green Mountain solely because it was my late fathers rifle and I wanted to keep it TC. Live and learn. I have been farting around with it on and off for 16 years and even managed to kill a few deer with it. Im really hoping Mr Hoyt can do wonders for it.

[white eagle]

my TC Hawken likes 535 round balls and .010 pillow ticking patches
I use 90 gr's of loose black as well

[Lead pot]

I shot.my Tc hawken trying to find great.accuracy. it was good a enough In all the loads to 100 grains in 777 black and pirodex. then for.some.reason I dropped.to 40 grains of 777 then black with 490 balls and SHAZZAM! Did I have a shooter! I feel for.people.writing about.accuracy searching with muzzleloader.

Well the good thing you found out with black powder rifles is that the magnum mentality is not the best for lead projectiles. It is not the best frame of mind.

[Prairie Cowboy]

OP, sorry about the crappy barrel with the chatter marks.

My TC Hawken .50 cal. shot well with maxi-balls right out of the box, but like many others, was fussy with round balls. I started out using commercial lubes of the day that were crap, and patches cut from uncertain parentage material that had a nice tight weave, but didn't work. Accuracy was poor.

Finally I switched to pillow ticking patch material of about .012", a natural lube that I made using beeswax, Crisco, and olive oil, and my standard .490" round balls.
I also backed off to a 70 grain charge and switched to FFFg GOEX black powder, instead of FFg. It worked and I got about 5" groups at 100 yards. Not awe-inspiring but minute-of-whitetail accuracy. No doubt that I could have gotten better results with some more experimentation. Less is more with powder charges in a 1:48" twist barrel.

I suspect that most TC barrels could benefit from re-crowning, but that's just my opinion.

[cas]

I tried RB in my New Englander for the first time the other day. I always shot Great Plains bullets in it and it shot well. But after years of not using the rifle, I can't find my notes. I planned on taking it hunting next week and tried some loads from memory that worked well enough, but not what it once did. That night after doing some reading I decided to try some round ball and went back another day.
Digging through my stuff I found I had .520 and .535 ball, some .010, .015 and some ticking who's thickness I don't recall but never had any luck with in my other .54 . The night before I tested different combinations for tightness and devised a plan for the next day. Tried some KIK and some Swiss 2F, a few patch/ball combinations and various charges from 70-100 grains. None of them impressed me or shot better than the Hornady GPs. I decided to give up on the idea of round ball in this gun. But before I did, it was like that little voice talking to you... "Hey stupid, try this." I kept having the idea of "88 grains" in my head, which makes no sense since none of my measures are that precise. So I tried 80 1/2 grains of 2F KIK, a .535 ball and I dug out some of the pillow ticking which I hadn't been using. I fired 5 shots without checking the target between shots like I had been before, because I figured I was wasting my time anyway. When I walked down to the 50 yard targets, there were five holes clustered in a group that a poker chip would have covered. Four of them you could have mostly covered with a quarter. "Huh. How 'bout that. I guess it will shoot round ball." (considering how fuzzy all rear sights have gotten the last few years, and how all the front sights now look like one and a half sights, that's friken amazing)

[godzilla]

OH MAN!!! My barrel came back today and I am beyond excited! What a serious looking rifling job I have now. I just got the bits back on the barrel and I will get it cleaned and greased to shoot. I will take some pics and post. WOO HOO!

[LAGS]

What did you have Me Hoyt do to your barrel ?.
I have had him bore and Re Rifle barrels to larger bores and slower twist.
I have also had him Reline other barrels to their original caliber , but with a Slower Twist.
I now have two barrels I am going to send him that are not in to bad of bore condition.
I think I may just have them Refreshed to deepen the rifling and remove minor rusting.
They will still be in the 1: 48 twist and may require a larger ball , or a thicker patch.
So far I am very pleased with Mr Hoyts work , and all the barrels shoot great.

[godzilla]

Had him bore it to .54 caliber and asked for a twist suitable for round balls.

[LAGS]

You should be very happy.
I had a .50 rebored to .54 with a 1 : 60 twist and it shoots great

[Geezer in NH]

Maybe a candidate to send to Bob Hoyt for a re-bore?Winner! Winner! Winner!

[godzilla]

277140


Due to many other projects I have not got to shoot the barrel yet, but wow it looks great!

[fiberoptik]

Barrel porn!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pilot]

That makes me wish I had a bad barrel to send him.

[cas]

That makes me wish I had a bad barrel to send him.

I'm contemplating sending him a perfectly good barrel. :)

(from a gun I really don't need, in a caliber I already have too many of. But if he makes it a .62, it would be my one and only, and a perfectly good reason to own it!)

[hylander]

Barrel looks great!
I also had Hoyt rebore a 50 T/C Hawken about year ago for me.
You made a wise choice.
I have had several T/C Hawkens and none would shoot well (ok) but not well or consistent.

[megasupermagnum]

Did you go with round bottom rifling for any particular reason? I've got a swamped 42" Rice barrel with round bottom rifling, as that is what was offered with the kit I bought. I couldn't see any particular benefit or drawbacks compared to flat bottom rifling. I'm simply wondering if you prefer it for some reason.

[hylander]

Did you go with round bottom rifling for any particular reason? I've got a swamped 42" Rice barrel with round bottom rifling, as that is what was offered with the kit I bought. I couldn't see any particular benefit or drawbacks compared to flat bottom rifling. I'm simply wondering if you prefer it for some reason.

I could be wrong, but I think Mr. Hoyt only offers round bottom.

[waksupi]

Did you go with round bottom rifling for any particular reason? I've got a swamped 42" Rice barrel with round bottom rifling, as that is what was offered with the kit I bought. I couldn't see any particular benefit or drawbacks compared to flat bottom rifling. I'm simply wondering if you prefer it for some reason.

The last rifle I built was a .36 with round bottom rifling. Myself and other friends with this type rifling find it takes longer to clean for some reason, and needs the bore wiped fairly frequently to maintain accuracy, even with moose milk lube.

[nightwolf1974]

The factory twist for a T/C Hawken in 1:48"....more than suitable for shooting RB or conicals.

[hylander]

I just bought another T/C Hawken.
It will be getting a Rice barrel made for it.