New savage 99

[redneck1]

I stopped at a yardsale yesterday to look for treasures and found one .
An early savage 99 in .303 , appearance wise and mechanically it's in very nice condition .
But the bore isn't so good , it's bright and almost shiny , however the
Rifling is just plain wore out .
I don't have a bore scope to get a real good look at things , at the muzzle the rifling is just a bare trace . With a light I can make out a little better rifling further down but it could just be wishful thinking on my part .

The older fellow who owned it is also a cast bullet shooter and freely admitted he had tried just about every cast bullet you can think of in it and was never able to get it to shoot . He never tried any jacketed bullets in it though.

The price was right on it @ $400. So even if it won't shoot jacketed bullets either I am still in the win column with the low serial number , rifle lenght barrel and very good condition it'll make a very pretty wall hanger .
242499

[Mica_Hiebert]

A guy could have it counter bored. May hurt value a little but to me as a non collector I'd rather have a gun that shoots than one that is 100% original but only good as a conversation piece.

[redneck1]

I am not a collector either , I'm also not against counterboring it if there is enough rifling left to make it shoot again .

I think the first order of business is to try some jacketed bullets and see what happens .
If it's less then a success I'll try to round up a bore scope and get a better look at things

[Shawlerbrook]

Also can consider a JES rebore.

[upr45]

I have one that the bore needed a serious cleaning, also a .303. It looked like the rifling was gone. It was loaded up with crud and was not shiny at all. After several good bouts of cleaning the rifling is present although not perfect. Rebore would be worth considering.

[Markopolo]

I would say a SERIOUS scrub of the barrel is in order, along with a real look. Pound cast, and then see for yourself if a correctly sized Boolit can spin... I never write off a gun unless I have done everything I can first. I have had several “shot out” barrels come back to life with a real scrub, and a correctly sized Boolit from a pound casting. It’s up to you.. you could have a 400 dollar wall hanger, or with some work, a real treasure!!!!!

242513

The picture above was from a under 20 dollar scope.... no reason not to have one,

Just me..

Marko

[pertnear]

No matter the bore condition, a Savage 99 of the vintage & condition you describe is a steal at $400.

Original barrels can still be found for the 99 from parts rifles. I recall seeing a .22 Savage hi-power barrel for sale on this forum not too long ago.

[Dan Cash]

John Taylor of this forum is your reline friend. A rebore on the rotary magazine 99 is problematic. Reline and chamber back to .303 Savage and have fun. Even a change to .30-30 is not likely to work well. I tried it once and feeding was very unreliable.

[redneck1]

The bore is very clean , I should be ashamed to say this but I'm not.
I'd say it's cleaner then any rifle I own. I ran a few patches threw it and not a single one came out with any hint of dirt , dust or fouling .
Nothing except good old hopps.

I ran a wet patch down it last and gave it a few strokes with a nylon brush , I'll let it sit a few hours and see if there's anything that loosened up .

A cheap borescope would be nice , at the moment I'll have to hold off getting one . This wasn't a planned purchase , more of a ... oooo shiny and pretty , me like purchase .
The budget is going to need some time to recover .

I do however have a set of borrowed dies , and a few cases on the way . Once they are here I'll try it for myself and see what happens .
Then go from there .

Not being a collector I kind of still sit on the fence when it comes to things like this .
I have little concern as to value , I also lump myself into its much better as a working rifle then a 100% correct wall hanger group .
I also don't want to mangle up a very nice rifle with a 4 digit serial number.

I am almost sure that a counter bore will be the minimum to make it shoot , but I'm not 100% sure so I'll put some effort in before taking that step .

I am against a re-bore , I have a whole myriad of reasons that are all my own .

If a re-line is possible and needed I wouldn't be against that.
I don't know anything about re-lining a high pressure center fire though. And I'm still a long way away from having to consider it as an option .

[stubshaft]

Another vote for JES rebore. 35/303 makes a great cartridge.

[skeettx]

Here is what I would do.
I would shoot three rounds, then measure
the inside diameter of the case necks.
Then cast a bullet of that diameter or a tad less.
I would use linotype at first.
Load the ammo and see if it will chamber.
Then shoot for grouping
Let us know what you find out
Mike

[Texas by God]

If you are going to try jacketed bullets, use 311 or 312 diameter as that is what was originally used in the 303 Savage.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[richhodg66]

"The older fellow who owned it is also a cast bullet shooter and freely admitted he had tried just about every cast bullet you can think of in it and was never able to get it to shoot . He never tried any jacketed bullets in it though."

Just because he was older and tried a lot doesn't mean he knew what he was doing. It's surpsining to me how my Lyman manual from the '70s tells you to size to groove diameter and a lot of casters from that generation bought it.

The .303 Savage is a .308, but I would recommend .311 at least, seems to do best for me in almost all .308s. PPU makes the brass now, so not hard to get. My .303 is a 99H (saddle carbine variant). I'd like very much to have one like yours, I think you did well.

Did the seller have any brass, dies or molds?

The rotors for Savage 99s aren't quite as caliber specific as many think. Gary (gnoahh) on here is the most knowledgeable guy I know with regards to 99s and has at least rebarreled some using rotors for other cartridges and could tell you better than me.

I think you can get that old rifle to shoot Ok without resorting to jacketed bullets. I wouldn't rebore it. I think you could reline it to the same caliber and a guy who's good at doing it will be able to make it seamless enough to where you'd have to look very closely with a magnifying glass to tell it had been done.

[Bazoo]

I wonder what the previous owner was able to get accuracy wise. Maybe it'll shoot 3moa and he wasn't happy with it.

[Petander]

What has eaten the rifling if it's been shot cast only?

Are you absolutely sure it's not full of lead instead of lost rifling? Sometimes people keep shooting "shiny clean" barrels and completely fill them up with lead. I have done that.

If the previous owner couldn't get it to shoot cast,it could be simply leading. Lots of it.

[pietro]

.

Nice rifle, similar to the .303 Model 1899-H Lightweight Carbine I glommed @ a local Cabela's about 3 years ago, tagged just under $350.

Mine shoots goodnuf @ 100yds.


https://i.imgur.com/B5v1LLLl.jpg


This was with new factory Hornady .308" 150gr ammo.

https://i.imgur.com/KeyV2AXl.jpg


Of course, the reason I got it so cheap is that it was D/T'd for a scope and the stock & barrel were covered with sticker residue & white paint splatter that (I guess) Cabela's didn't think could be saved, and so just put it out as-is. :D

The "mess" took me under 30mins to clean up, once I got it home...………..

I even have the correct Lyman tang sight for it.



.

[M-Tecs]

Cleaning rod damage at the muzzle is common. A 303 Savage with a shot out bore not so much. That would take at least 6,000 plus rounds of jacketed ammo and even than the throat would be errored and the rifling still should be strong. First step if it was mine would be cleaning with a product like Wipe Out or Bore Tech Eliminator until all fouling stopped coming out.

[nekshot]

Congrats on a good buy for a good gun and a good cartridge! I have one like that and I sometimes shoot cast in mine. But, with speer 130 fn jackets and a slightly full case of H335 yields 1 inch groubs. I don't shoot that load often but when I do take the gun for a hunt/walk that is the load in the beast. 26 inch barrel on mine and a dented receiver to boot! You will enjoy it more as time passes by!

[redneck1]

After a few hours setting I ran another tight patch down the barrel .
Still squeaky clean . I am very confident that the barrel is as clean and lead free as it can get .

As to why the bore might be shot ,. I'd lean towards it being a result of spending the first 50 odd years of its 120 year life with corrosive primed ammunition .

The previous owners accuracy report was ... tumbling and zero stability no matter the size and weight tried . @ 100 yards he couldn't keep 2 out of ten shots on a three foot square target .

Even with that said ,. I can still see some rifling down there , so I do hold out some hope . I'd be pretty darn happy if I can counter bore it and shoot 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards .
Pretty terrible accuracy yes ... but still shoot able for my needs .

And hey , like mentioned above there's a chance the old timer didn't have a clue on what he was doing .
Hope for the best and plan for the worst .
I need to shoot it for myself first , and I think the easiest place to start is with a few rounds duplicating the factory load it was intended to fire for a benchmark test

[redhawk0]

Hey redneck1....are you using regular Hoppes #9 or are you using the Hoppes Lead formula. I've noticed the Lead formula definitely cuts through the lead better than #9.

You might also try a few wet patches of Kroil and let it overnight. See if that can "creep" under any fouling and loosens up more.

redhawk

[OverMax]

JES Boring would be my last choice. Have someone screw a Redman Re-line insert in. If it's possible? If no-can-do. Then consider sending to JES or whom ever of your choice for its boring.

[redneck1]

I used hopps #9 I don't have any of the lead remover to try .
I have some of the foaming bore cleaner in it now just for giggles and it don't hurt to try .

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it's clear that the barrel is clean, continued efforts to improve it by cleaning it is wishful thinking.

So that leaves a few options:
1. keep the rifle as it is and make it a beautiful, original wall hanger.
2. Re-barrel or re-line the existing barrel. I would vote for re-barreling the action because once it's no longer original it really doesn't matter and a re-barrel has a much better chance of success.

A re-barrel will result in a functional rifle that still has a great action with a rotary magazine. While it may not have the collector's value of an all original rifle it will be everything the 99 is known for.

So stop cleaning an already clean bore, stop hoping against all hope that there's some little, easily corrected problem destroying accuracy and pull the barrel off. At that point you'll be committed to moving forward.

Ether re-barrel it or hang it on the wall.

[Norske]

The used 99 I bought had been carried a lot, shot some, never properly cleaned. It took me about 2 weeks to get the bore truly clean. Try plugging the chamber with a size 00 rubber stopper (hardware store), secure the rifle with the muzzle up, fill the bore with Hoppes #9 and leave it in there overnight. Pour the solvent down a toilet and scrub the bore. If nothing shows up on a patch, try filling the bore with Gunslick foaming bore cleaner and let that work overnight. That foam has lifted lead from my handgun barrels. Hoppes is better at removing powder residue, the foam seems to work like a penetrating oil.

[yeahbub]

Your options also include paper patching. Barrels with shallow rifling which are a challenge with cast often shoot PP'd boolits very well. If the rifling is in decent shape, it might be worth a try.

[BigAlofPa.]

I have found that PB blaster gets in under the lead and helps lift it. Try soaking the bore with it.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

A good cleaning is in order. Soak with Hoppe's BENCHREST, I wet the bore multple times and let sit for a day or two. a Cotton plug in the chamber a patch stock in the bore dribble a half teaspoon down the bore. CHANGE to another cleaner, soak with Kroil, clean some more, use different stuff, maybe find someone with a bore scope to see how really bad it is. I have a Lyman Bore Scope, even bad looking barrels can shoot very well. I would start with a .310 or .311 bullet like the RCBS 180 FN or the NOE clone, 15-20 grs 4227, Reloder 7, 4198 usually works. Unless the muzzle is really worn badly most barrels will do under 3 MOA at 100 yards, with fussing and load development most do better. A 'rough' or badly pitted bore may need cleaning more often to maintain accuracy. 'Pre-lubing' a rough bore with a Lee Liquid Alox, a heavy motor oil, or light grease kind of lube helps(not the chamber and a VERY LIGHT coat). Bullets that carry more lube seem to work better in the rough ones, filled lube grooves along with a tumble lube - LLA, 45-45-10 helps. You should try a few things before deciding it needs fixed, again looking down the barrel only says it isn't pretty, it might shoot just fine.

[redneck1]

We can rule out a fouled barrel , it's clean !

So with that , I should have cases in the mail today and this weekend I'll give it a try for myself .
I absolutely agree with trying before fixing .

One thing I can rule out is a re-bore . It's not anything I want to get into .
Before I'd consider re-lining it I'd have to talk to some people more knowledgeable then myself on the subject . But it's not an option I'd outright dismiss .

As to re-barreling if a rifle lenght .303 savage barrel from the correct era happened to come my way I'd consider that as well .

But all that is putting the cart before the horse , seeing first hand whether or not it will shoot is where I'm starting .

If it doesn't , a borescope is the next step .

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I guess we'll all have to wait with great anticipation for a range report. It might surprise you. If it doesn't shoot well, and if it were mine, I'd start a search for another, original barrel. It might be long and require patience, but they're around.

[gnoahhh]

Whoa Nellie!! Did you say "4 digit serial number"? If so, then it's not a M1899 Savage, it's a M1895. Leave it alone, please! Value is waaaay more than a M1899, even with a bad bore. Some better pics would help a lot- the one pic you showed us is far too poor to make a determination. Show us the wrist/cheeks behind the receiver, the top of the bolt, and the fore arm please. A pic of the barrel writing would clinch things.

It would also have the letters JM on the underside of the barrel hidden by the fore arm. That's the code put there by the Marlin factory, who made all the M1895's for Arthur Savage.

Model 1899 serial numbers started with #10,000, ie: the first M1899 would have serial number 10001. No four digit numbers on M1899/99's, ever.

.303's were never .311 groove diameter. Savage had the goofy idea early on to run .311 bullets through the .308 barrel as a means of jacking up pressure a little and hence velocity. They dropped that idea, like, 120 years ago, for good reason.

Relining isn't an option. I don't know of a single responsible gunsmith who would do that for such a cartridge. Reboring to .35 would work (call it a .35/.303) but oh my god what a horrific thing to do if it's really a Model 1895.

Rotors are very forgiving. Savage only made a few different rotors and used them for all calibers. What is different between calibers and is very important not to be overlooked when doing a switch is the cartridge guide (on the right inside the action, not the left- that's the automatic magazine cutoff).

[gnoahhh]

The most probable reason for it having a practically smooth bore is that it probably got rusty at some time and some well meaning soul polished the bejapers out of it with valve grinding compound or somesuch. It now is what it is.

Priming compounds were notoriously evil back in the late 1800's when mercury was a prime ingredient. That changed universally right around the turn of the century when chlorate primers came into universal use. Mercuric priming was particularly awful, causing brass embrittlement (don't reload those cases) and rapid throat erosion. Chlorate primers didn't attack the brass or erode throats at an alarming rate, but were still corrosive nonetheless. That may well have caused a rusty bore here which would have prompted said over-polishing. The ammo itself wouldn't have worn it smooth, unless like someone said many thousands of rounds were put through it as in like a machine gun barrel.

[redneck1]

Well that's interesting , if we get lucky and the sun shines tomarow
I'll get some better pictures , my old and cheep camera won't take good pictures under my lighting .

I never once considered it could be a 95 , I didn't think a whole lot of them was built and figured my 78×× number was much to high to be anything but an early 99

That makes it easy to keep my resolve and not molest the rifle any .

Brass is here though , and it sure can't hurt to give her a try :)

[gnoahhh]

And please, if it's an 1895 don't ruin it by counterboring it either. If you want a shooter .303 sell this one and buy a good shooter and take the leftover money and treat yourself to nice time somewhere.

[gnoahhh]

Yeah, serial 78XX would definitely make it a '95. Don't worry about how clear the pics are. I would just like to see the wood shape better. Sometimes people would install later wood on them rather than repair broken original wood.

You have a gem!!

[gnoahhh]

Lots of differences between 1895's and 1899's. Outwardly the receivers are about the same but internally they differ enough that stuff won't interchange without some alterations. Bolts were the big difference.

[redneck1]

To be quite honest , even if it won't shoot as is I won't be heart broken . I knew the barrel condition going into it .
Bright shiny caught my eye , leaving it as is won't be hard to do .
I have plenty of stuff to shoot

[gnoahhh]

Brass is here though , and it sure can't hurt to give her a try :)

Before you shoot it, is headspace ok? Also, look very closely at the receiver where the back of the bolt butts against it. That mortise was cut with sharp square corners on the '95's and early 1899's and as such were highly prone to cracking. A crack will emanate out from one of those square bolt mortise corners, usually the left one. Look close, the cracks are hard to see. If it's cracked I wouldn't shoot it- it probably won't have a catastrophic failure but you'll definitely make it worse. Key word there is "probably".

Those corners were essentially "stress risers".

The Savage company at one time would take on repairs of their rifles. When those early square bolt guns came in they would swap it out with a new improved receiver/bolt, or send it back to its owner.

[redneck1]

More good info thank you .
I'll give it a good looking over tomarow and get some pics , it's not far from bed time here and I'm feeling much to lazy to get into the safe

I'm not feeling to concerned about there being any head space issues
But it only takes a few minutes to add some making tape to a case and give it a quick low tech check .

[ascast]

You really ought to just send that to me. I have several tubes that will fit the front. I hate to see you struggling so with an antique. 99 barrels are common enough on the auction sites. If you go that route, they may not pull up tight, but if the extractor slot is good, you can shoot.

[gnoahhh]

Uh, no. More likely than not, headspace goes out the window when you screw on a different barrel even if it indexes properly (which is slim odds in itself). The way they set headspace on 99's at the factory was the final assembler had an assortment of different length bolts at his disposal and would mix and match them until good headspace was achieved. That approach allowed them to make barrels and receivers with fairly sloppy tolerances thus allowing for faster production and less wastage. The bolts varied in length by almost a 1/32nd of an inch.

[Ruts]

You haven’t tried a bronze bore brush, what have you got to lose. I don’t use nylon brushes they make you think its clean then you turn up the carbon with the bronze. If the bronze brush turns up anything you can keep cleaning a bit at a time forever or go to j.b. Bore paste and clean it out at one sitting. I have found you have to get the carbon out mechanically, no amount of soaking will penetrate hard old carbon. You hafta do everything to get the bore clean, then pussyfoot around with gentle cleaning methods after, if you get it shooting ok. I would try jacketed .308, they work fine in my 303 marlin. I have a few old bores that haven’t got much left and shoot fine with jacketed bullets

[Petrol & Powder]

From post #9 - The OP wrote: "The bore is very clean , I should be ashamed to say this but I'm not.
I'd say it's cleaner then any rifle I own. I ran a few patches threw it and not a single one came out with any hint of dirt , dust or fouling....."

Then again in post # 19- "...Still squeaky clean . I am very confident that the barrel is as clean and lead free as it can get ...."

And finally from Post #28 - "We can rule out a fouled barrel , it's clean ! "


I'm sure somebody else will chime in and suggest that the OP clean the bore but it sounds like the bore is pretty clean.........

[Ruts]

From post #9 - The OP wrote: "The bore is very clean , I should be ashamed to say this but I'm not.
I'd say it's cleaner then any rifle I own. I ran a few patches threw it and not a single one came out with any hint of dirt , dust or fouling....."

Then again in post # 19- "...Still squeaky clean . I am very confident that the barrel is as clean and lead free as it can get ...."

And finally from Post #28 - "We can rule out a fouled barrel , it's clean ! "


I'm sure somebody else will chime in and suggest that the OP clean the bore but it sounds like the bore is pretty clean.........

Yes I read that and so did others who suggested it might not be clean. The reason I say that it might need cleaning is although it may be clean, not saying it’s not, I had similar problems with 2 old bores I thought were clean by my cleaning method at that time,and they were not. In fact they wouldn’t shoot straight and one of them, a lee enfield 303, looked real good down the bore.

[redneck1]

So with sunshine yesterday afternoon I set up a 3'x3' piece of cardboard .
10 rounds , 5 with 168 grain jacketed and 5 with 150 grain jacketed .
Two rounds hit the cardboard @ 50 yards . Both sideways .

Not an unexpected result , a member in my area has offered up the use of a borescope and I'm going to take him up on the offer just to have a good look .
My camera isn't cooperative at the moment , it's old and refusing to download pics to my pc .
My niece is going to stop by when she gets a chance in the next few days and I'll use her iPhone to take some pics .

Gnoahhh like mentioned already , I didn't even consider it being a 95 till you mentioned it .
Here's a question for you , is it possible for it to have been converted to a 99 at the factory
Just from looking at pictures and not knowing a whole lot about these rifles , I'm still thinking it's a 99
Nothing looks mismatched or wrong to tell me it was pieced together at a later point in time

[redneck1]

I feel like I should mention that I've decided against molesting the rifle in any way .
I've got plenty of other things to shoot I'll enjoy it for awhile as it is .
And maybe some time in the future I'll find something else I can't live without and pass it along to a new owner to do with as he pleases .

[gnoahhh]

So with sunshine yesterday afternoon I set up a 3'x3' piece of cardboard .
10 rounds , 5 with 168 grain jacketed and 5 with 150 grain jacketed .
Two rounds hit the cardboard @ 50 yards . Both sideways .

Not an unexpected result , a member in my area has offered up the use of a borescope and I'm going to take him up on the offer just to have a good look .
My camera isn't cooperative at the moment , it's old and refusing to download pics to my pc .
My niece is going to stop by when she gets a chance in the next few days and I'll use her iPhone to take some pics .

Gnoahhh like mentioned already , I didn't even consider it being a 95 till you mentioned it .
Here's a question for you , is it possible for it to have been converted to a 99 at the factory
Just from looking at pictures and not knowing a whole lot about these rifles , I'm still thinking it's a 99
Nothing looks mismatched or wrong to tell me it was pieced together at a later point in time

Personally I wouldn't waste any more powder and lead on that barrel.

As for identifying the various aspects of the rifle, a bunch of detailed close-up pics are needed before anybody can possibly tell you more via the internet. Some stuff interchanges with M1899's, some stuff doesn't.

[Texas by God]

Decades ago I picked up a 1899H carbine in .22HP. Like you, I put up a big target and got horrible results at 25yards. Next gun show it became a 336 Marlin and an Astra 600. That guy wanted it bad even when I told him it was inaccurate. I won't have a safe queen or wall hanger but that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[richhodg66]

Decades ago I picked up a 1899H carbine in .22HP. Like you, I put up a big target and got horrible results at 25yards. Next gun show it became a 336 Marlin and an Astra 600. That guy wanted it bad even when I told him it was inaccurate. I won't have a safe queen or wall hanger but that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Other than some very limited loading and shooting with mine, I haven't worked with the .22 High Power much, but understand it's kind of a tricky one. It uses .227 diameter bullets and good ones are tough to find.

It's been an on again off again goal of mine to kill at least one deer with each of the Savage proprietary cartridges, so far I've only done it with the .300 Savage. I have at least one rifle in each, so gotta get moving on the .303, .250 and .22 HP.