Opening up the neck on dies

[toallmy]

Recently I started loading for a 765x53 with a set of Lyman dies , the expander ball is a .311 so that is nice , but the sizing die has a tight neck that reduces the neck down like for a standard .308 caliber bullet .
Has anyone had any success opening up just the neck portion of a full length sizing die ?
Possibly like polishing out a lee push through sizing die .

[country gent]

Lapping out .002 from the hardened neck will be a chore. but can be done it just takes time. I don't think I would use a wood dowel and sand paper for this. I believe I would do it with an actual brass or lead lap and a case for a guide and to protect the dies body shoulder area. More work but also more sure of success.

Procedure here
trim the neck completely off a case back to the shoulder and drill the primer pocket out to desired neck dia.
Push this into the die and leave it there. You will be working thru it and it will hold lapp straight and true.
Turn up a brass or lead lapp 6-8" long.
Impregnate lapp with 320 grit compound by rolling between 2 steel plates. Insert and work it rotating slowly with heavy feed in and out you want the polish lines to cross over in a figure 8 pattern.
Clean die and size case to check size.
clean lapp and go to 600 for the last .001 or so to finish.

Better might be if you have access to a lathe would be to convert the die to use Redding bushings. In tis way you can adjust to just what you want need for a given batch of brass.

[Walks]

Call Lyman, make them fix it.

[nicholst55]

I'll bet DougGuy could hone the neck without too much difficulty.

[EDG]

This guy will show you how to lap out die necks.
In the future avoid Lyman dies. They are usually very tight in the neck and body.

https://rickaverill.com/projects-past-and-present/lapping-reloading-dies/

[toallmy]

I appreciate the responses gentlemen , some good ideas brought up .

[JeepHammer]

I've gone over this several times, and the dies are not sacred, it's perfectly acceptable to make them produce the cases you want.

The lapping process described above is workable, and it's how I lap out the necks of dies.
The exception is the lapping tool, I use a wooden dowel rod instead of steel or brass.
Simply turn or sand down the dowel (easy when you turn it in a drill motor) and I stay away from aluminum oxide abrasive when lapping.

Trim the case slightly below the upper neck bend completely removing the neck of the case.
Drill primer hole out large enough for your lapping tool shank, but no larger.
The case protects the die body, and the drilled primer end guides the lapping tool so it stays straight in the die.

--------

Dies are made to crush down EVERY brass shoved into them.
Most US made dies are sized to work with brass cases, so it's not nearly as bad as it used to be when dies were made for steel, aluminum, etc.
But most WAY undersize the neck, then rely on the expander ball to open it back up.
This creates a crazy amount of work hardening, and reducing the work hardening makes cases last MUCH longer.

Guys with 'Tight' chambers often find their brass lasts much longer, simply because brass doesn't get the chance to expand so much before being crushed under sized, then expand back out to accept a bullet.
You simply want to remove the over crushing and that's perfectly acceptable, and the couple thousandths you want to take out of that undersizing will make your brass last substantially longer, all else being equal.

I also lap the size ball, while you are satisfied with your size ball.
Instead of using serious crimping, taking a little off the sizer ball *Often* removes the need for a crimp, and it's MUCH more consistent than a crimp.

Just keep in mind you are working with a circle, which very small changes make for big results.
I would 'Sneak Up' on the sizing, keeping in mind the brass will rebound ('Spring Back' is the rebound of the brass) and you probably shouldn't take 0.002" out because you want the neck 0.002" larger.
The work hardening & brass alloy makeup will determine rebound, and when you aren't way undersizing the brass, it will rebound differently,
AND you can't put metal back into the die if you go too far...
(Ask me how I learned that one :( )

[EDG]

The real answer is you can use any method you please that works. Yes barrel laps cost a few bucks and for some green horns are possibly one of the easiest methods to learn. If you spend a decade running a lathe and polish out dozens of dies you can lap a die out using a number of techniques that all work. A skilled worker does not need a modified case either.


I've gone over this several times, and the dies are not sacred, it's perfectly acceptable to make them produce the cases you want.

The lapping process described above is workable, and it's how I lap out the necks of dies.
The exception is the lapping tool, I use a wooden dowel rod instead of steel or brass.
Simply turn or sand down the dowel (easy when you turn it in a drill motor) and I stay away from aluminum oxide abrasive when lapping.

Trim the case slightly below the upper neck bend completely removing the neck of the case.
Drill primer hole out large enough for your lapping tool shank, but no larger.
The case protects the die body, and the drilled primer end guides the lapping tool so it stays straight in the die.

--------

Dies are made to crush down EVERY brass shoved into them.
Most US made dies are sized to work with brass cases, so it's not nearly as bad as it used to be when dies were made for steel, aluminum, etc.
But most WAY undersize the neck, then rely on the expander ball to open it back up.
This creates a crazy amount of work hardening, and reducing the work hardening makes cases last MUCH longer.

Guys with 'Tight' chambers often find their brass lasts much longer, simply because brass doesn't get the chance to expand so much before being crushed under sized, then expand back out to accept a bullet.
You simply want to remove the over crushing and that's perfectly acceptable, and the couple thousandths you want to take out of that undersizing will make your brass last substantially longer, all else being equal.

I also lap the size ball, while you are satisfied with your size ball.
Instead of using serious crimping, taking a little off the sizer ball *Often* removes the need for a crimp, and it's MUCH more consistent than a crimp.

Just keep in mind you are working with a circle, which very small changes make for big results.
I would 'Sneak Up' on the sizing, keeping in mind the brass will rebound ('Spring Back' is the rebound of the brass) and you probably shouldn't take 0.002" out because you want the neck 0.002" larger.
The work hardening & brass alloy makeup will determine rebound, and when you aren't way undersizing the brass, it will rebound differently,
AND you can't put metal back into the die if you go too far...
(Ask me how I learned that one :( )

[JeepHammer]

"... If you spend time running a lathe..."

The point was you can "Modify A Case" and you don't need a lathe, or supporting machine shop to do a simple neck or ball job at home.

A round stick that fits snug in the neck of the die,
(Sanded to size)
Some lapping compound,
A case with neck removed and drilled for the stick AS A GUIDE,
And a drill motor is all that's needed.

Wooden dowel rods are cheap, available, work to shape easily, and wood has been a traditional lapping/finish for centuries, so the ground work is set.

On the other hand,
A wooden dowel rod might have a slight curve in it, so you get a slightly ovaled, not 'Perfectly' round hole...
That's not an issue since the bullet is going to make the neck round when it's pressed in,
Or it's going to make the neck what ever shape the bullet is,
From someone that gauges every long range bullet I load for diameter, I can tell you about 3% or more aren't round from the factory, and therefore when loaded the neck takes on the outside profile of the bullet...

Another point you can easily make is when the shoulder gets pushed back the excess brass from stretch & case bloating gets pushed into the neck.
As the ball expander comes out of the case, it drags the excess brass upwards, and that dragging process often doesn't leave a neck perfectly straight or round either.
(The reason people use concentricity gauges, to tell how much the neck/bullet is out of round with centerline of case)

For the average home reloaders, on the average set of dies, a wooden dowel rod, sandpaper, lapping compound, case cut & drilled for guide, and a drill motor are all that's needed to do the lapping job quite effectively.

[EDG]

Use of a wood dowel and rolled up abrasives will almost guarantee that you will lap a taper leading into the neck of the die. For beginners the barrel lap goes a long way toward preventing that taper.
Modify a case and you can still mess up your die neck since the rolled up abrasive still has to exit the case to lap the die neck. This is based on my polishing dozens to maybe a hundred dies over the last 50 years. Even you admit that a wood dowel may produce an oval hole. You may gage your bullets but few do and that is not a good reason for a second rate polishing process. If you find that some percentage of the bullets are out of round why on earth would you still use them and why would you gage them and still use them? It makes no sense.
People have built guns by holding the parts between their toes for more than 100 years but that does not mean the tradition is a preferred process. I suspect you have never used a barrel lap. For a beginner it is much easier to control as shown by the web site. Even so you still have to invest in a method to check the neck lapping process dimensions.
Real "sand paper" is about the sorriest abrasive anyone could ever use and I would never recommend it.
If you have to use paper wet or dry carborundum paper (silicon carbide) used wet with a light oil is a superior polishing media though it requires more skill and practice than using a barrel lap. I have used carborundum paper for polishing scratched die bodies as well as lapping necks. My experience polishing so many die bodies proves you do not need a case to protect the die. A light polish of the case body removes basically NO metal but it does improve the surface texture and makes sizing cases much easier. The primary reason for polishing the die body is to remove light scratches previous owners put into used dies because they sized dirty cases. I have never seen anyone refer to case "bloating". This is really a miss match between your chamber, your brass and your loading die and is not really a condition that can be corrected by lapping a die neck with a stick. If you open the neck enough to permit minimal sizing the expander ball does basically nothing. That is a large part of the reason to lap the die neck in the first place.



"... If you spend time running a lathe..."

The point was you can "Modify A Case" and you don't need a lathe, or supporting machine shop to do a simple neck or ball job at home.

A round stick that fits snug in the neck of the die,
(Sanded to size)
Some lapping compound,
A case with neck removed and drilled for the stick AS A GUIDE,
And a drill motor is all that's needed.

Wooden dowel rods are cheap, available, work to shape easily, and wood has been a traditional lapping/finish for centuries, so the ground work is set.

On the other hand,
A wooden dowel rod might have a slight curve in it, so you get a slightly ovaled, not 'Perfectly' round hole...
That's not an issue since the bullet is going to make the neck round when it's pressed in,
Or it's going to make the neck what ever shape the bullet is,
From someone that gauges every long range bullet I load for diameter, I can tell you about 3% or more aren't round from the factory, and therefore when loaded the neck takes on the outside profile of the bullet...

Another point you can easily make is when the shoulder gets pushed back the excess brass from stretch & case bloating gets pushed into the neck.
As the ball expander comes out of the case, it drags the excess brass upwards, and that dragging process often doesn't leave a neck perfectly straight or round either.
(The reason people use concentricity gauges, to tell how much the neck/bullet is out of round with centerline of case)

For the average home reloaders, on the average set of dies, a wooden dowel rod, sandpaper, lapping compound, case cut & drilled for guide, and a drill motor are all that's needed to do the lapping job quite effectively.

[JeepHammer]

I'm thinking maybe there is a miscommunication here...

Sandpaper, or file, to work down the wooden dowel rod.
Sand paper and a paint stick works too.

Lapping compound to size the neck of the die.
The stick, or any tool used needs to have a flat side surface so you don't get a taper.
The stick needs to be snug, or it won't remove material quickly or efficiently.

Again, case body, neck removed so you can lap the neck of the die and not the I side of the case,
And the primer/flash hole drilled to allow the dowel into the die in the first place,
Has a primary function of being a length guide to keep dowel centered with the neck.
The neck will center itself, the head stamp end of the case will center the dowel so you stay on centerline.

------

As to my qualifications,
I own & operate a machine shop.
I produce brass for cartridges from roll stock.
I make the dies that draw out the brass into cartridge cases.

That's just one part of what the shop does...

A QC strip out of the scroll press...
First a 4 foot wide roll of stock is sheered into strips, then strips fed into several scroll press machines.
Each machine has several die sets, and I made each & every die set.

https://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsh3wgtupr.jpg

https://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5ssxiau7.jpg

https://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsf7sh5kgl.jpg

https://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsirsya1is.jpg

I also built special weapons in the Marine Corps for 14 years, just in case you wonder about my precision machining related to firearms.
The Marines build their own long range rifles & special weapons...

------

What I attempt to do with reloaders is break things down to most simple terms that will have a positive outcome.
No one is going to throw several hundred dollars of machine shop time at a $20-$30 die.
No one is going to install 3 phase power in their home, then run out and buy a lathe,
No one is going to tool up for a machine shop,
Just to do ONE die...

This is simply an alternative to professional machine shop time/cost,
And it's cheap enough to do at home,
Likely hood of success is high.
Failure cost the common die & $1.50 dowel rod.

*IF* the guy wanted a dead straight dowel rod, no chance of taper or issues,
Throw another $10 at the project and make a file guide to size the dowel rod.
Unless you remove parts of the bench vice, a file guide will give you dead straight cuts.
That's a little complicated to explain, so I'd need to make one and take pictures so he got the point...

I honestly don't think he needs on since I haven't used one on common dies in 25 years and mine turned out fine to produce ultra premium ammo.

-------

As for gauging, and detecting out of round, over or under sized, off spec weight bullets...

No, I don't use them for long range accuracy shooting.
Since the throat/barrel sizes each and every bullet that is fired through it, it's not as important as you think...
The culls hit the blasting ammo pile, get loaded for general use.
Minute of deer heart at 150 yards is just great for out of spec bullets, not so hot for 1,000 yard matches.
The family/friends that like to hear big bangs & waste ammo don't know the difference either.
They are often 3 or 4 magazines in before they ever bother to see if the firearm even has sights...
And that's just fine with me as long as they are having fun.

I'm not a snob, I don't care what kind of firearm is being shot, I don't care what size round is being fired, I don't even care if they hit anything AS LONG AS THEY ARE SAFELY SHOOTING and having a good time.
I don't care if they go swimming or shooting archery, it's the good time thing again, and not everyone are firearms people.

I don't care how a guy reloads, or modifies his equipment...
It's HIS equipment, if he's able to hit what he's aiming at, I don't care if he's banging his ammo together with rocks, it works for him.

If I can throw in an idea he can use, then I'm glad to do it.
If it doesn't work for him, it doesn't hurt my feelings....

[toallmy]

Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to point me in the right direction . It seems like a good weekend project .