Neck sizing and decapping

[burch]

I have a question for you 45-70 blackpowder shooters. If I just neck size my casings after fire forming, the decapping pin is too short since the die is barely in the press. So do I decap by hand or am I doing something wrong. Also, do I really need to neck size or can I just bell the case mouth and use an expander and seat the bullet.
Burch

[country gent]

I deprime by hand not so much because I neck size but because I want to get the pockets cleaned when polishing the brass. Heres my procedure, When fired a group of 10-16 shots the rifles bore is wet with windex in the cradle. I then deprime the cases dropping into soapy water to soak. When cases are deprimed I finish the barrel by 4-5 passes of a brush then 3 dry patches. THe cases soaking keeps the fouling soft nd removes a lot. Every time I do the above procedure the jug get shook for a short time to agitate it also. When home brass is rinsed 3-4 times in hot tap water and placed on a drying rack. from there to the polisher with corn cobs treated with Iosso brass polish and a small amount of nu finish. 45 mins to 1 hour later cases and pickets are clean. I then sue a nylon brush and patch to wipe insides of cases. Ready to load now.

As to sizing cases I don't size till after bullet has been hand seated onto the powder wad stack. ( just makes it easier for me) You can do this with the sizer die by setting it high to just size mouth down to bullet. ( I have found .400-.450 above fill length sizing setting is about right) You want the bullet to be held lightly but still able to turn in case by hand. I normally use a bushing die nd the correct sized bushing to do this.

I shoot the real black powders Olde Eynsforde swiss and Goex. Use SPG or emmerts improved for lube and 20-1 for bullets.

[Gunlaker]

I do de-capping as a separate operation with an RCBS decapping die. That should solve your problem.

Chris.

[burch]

I deprime by hand not so much because I neck size but because I want to get the pockets cleaned when polishing the brass. Heres my procedure, When fired a group of 10-16 shots the rifles bore is wet with windex in the cradle. I then deprime the cases dropping into soapy water to soak. When cases are deprimed I finish the barrel by 4-5 passes of a brush then 3 dry patches. THe cases soaking keeps the fouling soft nd removes a lot. Every time I do the above procedure the jug get shook for a short time to agitate it also. When home brass is rinsed 3-4 times in hot tap water and placed on a drying rack. from there to the polisher with corn cobs treated with Iosso brass polish and a small amount of nu finish. 45 mins to 1 hour later cases and pickets are clean. I then sue a nylon brush and patch to wipe insides of cases. Ready to load now.

As to sizing cases I don't size till after bullet has been hand seated onto the powder wad stack. ( just makes it easier for me) You can do this with the sizer die by setting it high to just size mouth down to bullet. ( I have found .400-.450 above fill length sizing setting is about right) You want the bullet to be held lightly but still able to turn in case by hand. I normally use a bushing die nd the correct sized bushing to do this.

I shoot the real black powders Olde Eynsforde swiss and Goex. Use SPG or emmerts improved for lube and 20-1 for bullets.

I’ve never heard of sizing after loading. I’ll give it a try and thanks.

[Lead pot]

I use a Lyman universal die that is good for the .40 calibers to the .50-90 I use for depriming or I use a 310 tool that is large enough diameter so it does not size the case. I don't size any of my brass when loading, just a slight taper crimp if I need to hold the bullet in and that is just enough so the bullet don't drop out turning it upside down. The only time I use a sizing die is for new cases or forming a case to a lesser diameter .45 to a .40 or .44.

[country gent]

Another thing I do I omitted accidently. I pan lube bullets. may cake cutters are .o10 bigger than the bullets and push thru. this leaves the lube .005 proud on a side roughly. Te tacky spg nd emmerts inproved when hand seated fill some gap and when case is sized down around bullet grips the case before the bullet is distorted.

[Gunlaker]

Burch there is also nothing wrong with a partial sizing and expanding. It's a perfectly fine way to do it as well. Not all of my loads use neck tension, but those that do are partially sized ( Full length sizer backed out 3 or 4 turns depending on what I'm doing), and then expanded with a Buffalo Arms expander plug that is 0.001" under the bullet diameter. Some of their expanders are a single diameter, and some are dual diameter. Yesterday I was using a 0.458"x0.461" expander which expands to 0.458" and opens the mouth up to 0.461" for seating the bullet without shaving lead. I have a pile of those in various sizes and they are inexpensive and good which is rare in this world :-).

Chris.

[burch]

My stuff just arrived :grin::
My bore dia. is .458
I have a 535gr. Postell bullet sized to .459
I have .458 & .459 expander plugs.
So do I use the .458 expander ?

[country gent]

What rifle are you loading for? Lever actions require mire neck tension and some slightly different techniques than the single shots. Hunting, plinking or formal target use? Thiese all come into deciding how to load a given round.

For hunting ammo in a lever gun as much neck tension as possible and a crimp to reduce set back under recoil is desirable. Also you don't want ammo coming apart in the tube.

For the various single shots I would consider very light to no neck tension loads ( the rounds arnt being subjected to recoil here). For hunting ammo light neck tension might be a plus so you don't end up with a pocket of cases powder and bullets. For plinking and target work let the rifle tell you what it wants by the groups. I get very good accuracy from the light to no neck tension loads in most of my rifles. Find the acceptable load for the rifle then experiment with neck tension changing nothing then try a light crimp even.

The Lyman 535 postel has been a good performer for me in the 45 caliber rifles I have, It may be just a little light on lube for longer barrels at times. Blow tube or wiping between shots helps here. Keep it just off the rifling and find the loading

[burch]

I also got a 45 cal. wad cutter. So, what material should I be lookin for.

[Gunlaker]

If the .459" bullet slip fits reasonably snugly in your fireformed cases then I'd try it without sizing and expanding. Otherwise I'd recommend trying a partial size or neck size, and your .458" expander to start with.

Chris.

[burch]

What rifle are you loading for? Lever actions r
equire mire neck tension and some slightly different techniques than the single shots. Hunting, plinking or formal target use? Thiese all come into deciding how to load a given round.

For hunting ammo in a lever gun as much neck tension as possible and a crimp to reduce set back under recoil is desirable. Also you don't want ammo coming apart in the tube.

For the various single shots I would consider very light to no neck tension loads ( the rounds arnt being subjected to recoil here). For hunting ammo light neck tension might be a plus so you don't end up with a pocket of cases powder and bullets. For plinking and target work let the rifle tell you what it wants by the groups. I get very good accuracy from the light to no neck tension loads in most of my rifles. Find the acceptable load for the rifle then experiment with neck tension changing nothing then try a light crimp even.

The Lyman 535 postel has been a good performer for me in the 45 caliber rifles I have, It may be just a little light on lube for longer barrels at times. Blow tube or wiping between shots helps here. Keep it just off the rifling and find the loading
I have a 1901 Original Rem. #5 Rolling Block with a Numrich 45-70 Buffalo barrel. It’s 28” with a 1:18 twist.

[burch]

Burch there is also nothing wrong with a partial sizing and expanding. It's a perfectly fine way to do it as well. Not all of my loads use neck tension, but those that do are partially sized ( Full length sizer backed out 3 or 4 turns depending on what I'm doing), and then expanded with a Buffalo Arms expander plug that is 0.001" under the bullet diameter. Some of their expanders are a single diameter, and some are dual diameter. Yesterday I was using a 0.458"x0.461" expander which expands to 0.458" and opens the mouth up to 0.461" for seating the bullet without shaving lead. I have a pile of those in various sizes and they are inexpensive and good which is rare in this world :-).

Chris.

That’s nice to know. I like the idea of being able to bell the case mouth and expand at the same time. That eliminates one step. I’ll have to measure my plug.

[rfd]

I have a question for you 45-70 blackpowder shooters. If I just neck size my casings after fire forming, the decapping pin is too short since the die is barely in the press. So do I decap by hand or am I doing something wrong. Also, do I really need to neck size or can I just bell the case mouth and use an expander and seat the bullet.
Burch

i'll assume yer loading with greased alloy bullets in a s/s rifle - i always took just fired (chamber oriented) brass and - water rinsed and hand deprimed (harvey deprimer), cleaned (u/s), made sure the insides were clean, checked for length, hand primed (lee), very lightly inside mouth chamfered, drop filled with swiss 1-1/2f, added a wad (always punched - milk carton, LDPE, newsprint top wads), and then press compressed. depending on the bullet, it might get seated by pushing in or seated with a die. i never saw a need to resize of expand FF brass - that brass was now made for that specific gun's chamber, and it gets fired chamber oriented.

[burch]

i'll assume yer loading with greased alloy bullets in a s/s rifle - i always took just fired (chamber oriented) brass and - water rinsed and hand deprimed (harvey deprimer), cleaned (u/s), made sure the insides were clean, checked for length, hand primed (lee), very lightly inside mouth chamfered, drop filled with swiss 1-1/2f, added a wad (always punched - milk carton, LDPE, newsprint top wads), and then press compressed. depending on the bullet, it might get seated by pushing in or seated with a die. i never saw a need to resize of expand FF brass - that brass was now made for that specific gun's chamber, and it gets fired chamber oriented.

As far as trimming goes. I’ve seen 1.085 - 2.1 etc.

[rfd]

As far as trimming goes. I’ve seen 1.085 - 2.1 etc.

i usually chamber cast and know what the case length needs to be for each gun, and trim with a sinclair-wilson trimmer.

[burch]

i usually chamber cast and know what the case length needs to be for each gun, and trim with a sinclair-wilson trimmer.

What is chamber casting and how do you get a trim length

[rfd]

cerrosafe ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDKBrKtN1OA

[Valley-Shooter]

I have a question for you 45-70 blackpowder shooters. If I just neck size my casings after fire forming, the decapping pin is too short since the die is barely in the press. So do I decap by hand or am I doing something wrong. Also, do I really need to neck size or can I just bell the case mouth and use an expander and seat the bullet.
Burch

Have you tried a neck sizing die?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/193916/redding-neck-sizer-die

[burch]

Have you tried a neck sizing die?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/193916/redding-neck-sizer-die

From what I’ve been reading I can neck size with my full length die.

[burch]

cerrosafe ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDKBrKtN1OA


That’s interesting. I like that guy too. I’ve used his videos to do a trigger job on my M44

[country gent]

For wads Ive been using NAPA .060 thick rubber fiber gasket material. Cork LDPE card board waxed juice containers can all be used. A lot drop a newsprint or tracing paper wad between wad and bullet also to keep the heavy wad from sticking to the bullet. In 45 caliber .060 is pretty predominant but .030 has followers also. What you can do to find what your rifle load likes is buy the first roll in .030. then load with 1 wad (.030) 2 wads ( .060) and 3 wads (.090).
Another if your rifle seems to need more lube is a grease cookie wad of .030 between 2 wads to add lube.

[indian joe]

I’ve never heard of sizing after loading. I’ll give it a try and thanks.

I do it on my three 45's but I use dies I made for the job
I shoot fat boolits (.460) and use my outside swage die for about 1/10th inch of the case mouth on the 45/70 reducing it to .480 OD (rifles are an IAB sharps and a Chiappa '86)
my 45/75 gets a very slight touch with a crimp die into the top lube groove then a pass the full length of the case neck with a .4855 die.

About the best gadget I have bought in many years of loading is a LEE universal decapper die - its been faultless since I got it .

[Lead pot]

242425
A hot air gun and a clean vessel does a better job making a clean chamber cast.

[burch]

My c.o.l. turned out to be 3.010 which is .002 off the lands with one grease groove exposed. Does that sound about right. It’s hard getting consistency when you’ve got different length cases and different length bullets. My longest case is 2.095 so I’m guessing they’ll need to be fired a couple times before I’ll have to trim them.

[kokomokid]

I use a FL sizer and FL resize and my best is a RCBS that sizes the neck to .472. I have a Redding neck size only and it sizes to.468. The more you have to expand, the more problems I have created. I have neck bushing dies from three different makers and they all created run out in my loaded ammo. I intend to try a barrel lap on my Redding die and see how well that works.

[Conditor22]

Pound casting. use drillbit bases to find needed diameter,
drill 2-stage hole in between 2 pieces of wood and clamp wood together.
melt pure lead and fill the hole(s) with pure lead

https://i.imgur.com/2KI0rNp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5u1eGed.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/btllkbx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vVaHHFF.jpg

wrap barrel, secure in a clamp with plastic under the barrel
https://i.imgur.com/Is9dLWO.jpg

lube barrel and slug, insert the slug
pound the slug flush with a lead hammer, mark the brass rod with the depth of the chamber and stop before you get that far
use barrel diameter rod to tap out the slug
https://i.imgur.com/6ye0YwF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3TqKuHb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IYCuPYI.jpg

this is on a 7.62x 25 Tokarev bottle necked case

[EDG]

There are several ways to deal with loading the .45-70 to accomplish some of your loading goals.
1. You can use a hand punch to knock out the old primers. Lee makes a good hand punch that you can buy. You use it with an 8 oz plastic or dead blow hammer.
2. Neck sizing can be accomplished by partial sizing or by using a bushing die or by using a neck sizing die. Redding makes a 45-70 neck die and Lyman makes a 45 cal universal neck die.
3. Some shooters do not size at all. A bullet is just inserted into a fire formed case. Some crimp and some don't. You can get away with this by carefully handling your ammo when loading your single shot.
4. I size my cases and I also expand it to barely grip the bullet. I use specialty expanders sold by Track of the Wolf that fit in the Lee .45-70 expander die. I use expanders that are the same size as the bullets so the only grip I get is from spring back of the brass or about .0005. What ever it is, it is not much. The reason for this light grip is to make the bullet seating depth non-critical. My loaded round length is about a rim thickness longer than the chamber permits. With the light grip on the bullet I can chamber the round against the bullet and then push the round into the chamber with my thumb and the breech block.
If done carefully and consistently the builets are pushed back into the brass giving a uniform length when fired.
5. If you flare your case mouths you can iron the flare out with a Lee FCD. You can also straighten out the case mouth with a light squeeze using a seating die (with the seating punch backed up) or with a FL sizer.


My c.o.l. turned out to be 3.010 which is .002 off the lands with one grease groove exposed. Does that sound about right. It’s hard getting consistency when you’ve got different length cases and different length bullets. My longest case is 2.095 so I’m guessing they’ll need to be fired a couple times before I’ll have to trim them.