Max FPS in old rifle barrels?

[Kev18]

Can someone please tell me why iv'e been told I should keep it at 1500FPS in my rifle? Its a winchester 1886 40-82, made in 1889.

What happens? Does a faster bullet shoot out the riflings or eat away the steel with the friction?

[17nut]

Because it is a pure BP rifle!
It has more to do with pressures than wearing out the rifling. And at that time a 45-90-300 BP cartridge only did some 1530fps.

In 1895 Winchester started to use nickel alloyed barrel steel as they started to use smokeless.

That being said the 1886 action is as strong as levers come and using Quickload i would say: load to @ 20kpsi for what ever speed that might net you (given that you really need that extra speed!).

242374

Winchester did load jacketed and smokeless

242375

[Kev18]

Because it is a pure BP rifle!
It has more to do with pressures than wearing out the rifling. And at that time a 45-90-300 BP cartridge only did some 1530fps.

In 1895 Winchester started to use nickel alloyed barrel steel as they started to use smokeless.

That being said the 1886 action is as strong as levers come and using Quickload i would say: load to @ 20kpsi for what ever speed that might net you (given that you really need that extra speed!).

242374

Winchester did load jacketed and smokeless

242375

Iv'e been told that it would affect the rifling but im not sure how.

Some people said that I could "shoot out" the barrel.

[Kev18]

https://i.imgur.com/oCD6bsJ.jpg

[KCSO]

Back in the days when alox was the lube in use for naked bulllets that was about as fast as you could go and not get leading, bad leading. In fact under 1000 was for pistols and 16oo was the most often quoted for rifles. Even with gas checks there were almost no loads above that speed. My oldest Cast Bullet Handbook lists NO loads over 1550 for the 250 Savage where with modern lube and gas check I have run 2000 fps with no problem.

[country gent]

Several reasons for this are 1) pressures of the loaded ammo are kept down to ensure safety in older firearms some which may be questionable as to strength thru age or design. 2) This helps to get the correct trajectory for the given round and maintain sights calibrations when applicable. 3) While these rifles are plenty strong they are from softer steels and heavier loads are harder on them from a wear stand point

[Kev18]

Several reasons for this are 1) pressures of the loaded ammo are kept down to ensure safety in older firearms some which may be questionable as to strength thru age or design. 2) This helps to get the correct trajectory for the given round and maintain sights calibrations when applicable. 3) While these rifles are plenty strong they are from softer steels and heavier loads are harder on them from a wear stand point

Thats what I was wondering, what wear does it cause?

[uscra112]

Jacketed bullets in soft barrels wear down the rifling pretty fast. First the leading corner gets rounded. That creeps toward the center of the lands until the center starts to wear down. A number of Stevens 44s were spoiled this way. 60 grain jacketed in a .25-20 Single Shot, loaded to 1850 fps - the Allyn Tedmon load. Wiser heads reported that an original barrel rarely lasted past 250 rounds of that. Tedmon was very close to the Stevens factory. Maybe he was drumming up rebarreling business for them?

[country gent]

Wear would be in the form of throat erosion at a increased amount mostly. The higher pressures, heat, and slower powders all will contribute to this. Other wear at a heavier rate might occur on locking lugs do to increased force. and the mechanism also do to the added force of operating. On softer parts with limited bearing surfaces this can really be magnified. A set of locking lugs originally designed for 30,000 cup and their area when subjected to a steady diet of "warm Loads" at 45,000 cup will wear much faster with the added forces on them during and after firing.

A good example of this ( while not a rifle) was the small and medium frame 38 specials in police use. These ran almost forever with standard 38 loads and wadcutters. Increased to a steady diet of +P loads and maintenance almost doubled, when some were chambered for 357 mag the maintenance almost tripled. Same gun just the heavier higher pressure loading.

I fine old rifle from the early cartridge eras wasn't meant to be a flat shooting high velocity rifle, But they were a very effective tool in their day.

[Kev18]

Jacketed bullets in soft barrels wear down the rifling pretty fast. First the leading corner gets rounded. That creeps toward the center of the lands until the center starts to wear down. A number of Stevens 44s were spoiled this way. 60 grain jacketed in a .25-20 Single Shot, loaded to 1850 fps - the Allyn Tedmon load. Wiser heads reported that an original barrel rarely lasted past 250 rounds of that. Tedmon was very close to the Stevens factory. Maybe he was drumming up rebarreling business for them?

I dont have any jacketed bullets, only lead wheel weights or pure lead piping.

[uscra112]

Ok, then the issue is how much pressure the rifle is good for. Those days, black powder and plain base bullets was all there was. Unless you loaded with extremely fine grain powder and/or very light bullets, about 1600 fps was all you were gonna get. That equates to no more than 15,000 psi with your 230 grain bullet. The load-bearing parts of the action were sized accordingly. More can start some plastic deformation (peening) to appear. Maybe not so bad in your Winchester, but I can again point to Stevens 44 small-game rifles which "shoot loose" rather rapidly when loaded much above 15kpsi.

The old lever-actions all locked up at the back of the bolt. High pressures can therefor actually stretch the receiver, because the receivers were of necessity made of low-carbon, low-tensile steel that was only case-hardened. Not until after 1900 could steelmakers offer alloy steels that could be forged and through-hardened reliably. First evidence is that headspace opens up. (T/C Contenders do this when people insist on barrelling them for cartridges better suited to bolt actions, even though the frames are modern steel.)

[Kev18]

Ok, then the issue is how much pressure the rifle is good for. Those days, black powder and plain base bullets was all there was. Unless you loaded with extremely fine grain powder and/or very light bullets, about 1600 fps was all you were gonna get. That equates to no more than 15,000 psi with your 230 grain bullet. The load-bearing parts of the action were sized accordingly. More can start some plastic deformation (peening) to appear. Maybe not so bad in your Winchester, but I can again point to Stevens 44 small-game rifles which "shoot loose" rather rapidly when loaded much above 15kpsi.

The old lever-actions all locked up at the back of the bolt. High pressures can therefor actually stretch the receiver, because the receivers were of necessity made of low-carbon, low-tensile steel that was only case-hardened. Not until after 1900 could steelmakers offer alloy steels that could be forged and through-hardened reliably. First evidence is that headspace opens up. (T/C Contenders do this when people insist on barrelling them for cartridges better suited to bolt actions, even though the frames are modern steel.)

I dont want anything crazy fps wise. I wouldnt mind staying under 2000. Maybe 1800 max. I reload with 3031, 34 grains, and cornmeal filler. Supposed to give about 1495fps.

[Hamish]

Kev18,

By your questions and responses in this thread it's clear you've not done much research yet on shooting cast. I would suggest to you that you need to spend some time reading the stickies so that you understand why the things that these people have told you are wrong, not just that they ARE wrong. It's a "teach a man to fish" kind of thing, and eventually, you can teach these other people why and how they are wrong.

Just might end up with a casting buddy or two.

[Kev18]

Kev18,

By your questions and responses in this thread it's clear you've not done much research yet on shooting cast. I would suggest to you that you need to spend some time reading the stickies so that you understand why the things that these people have told you are wrong, not just that they ARE wrong. It's a "teach a man to fish" kind of thing, and eventually, you can teach these other people why and how they are wrong.

Just might end up with a casting buddy or two.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I try to be an all around handyman, but its hard to keep track of everything. Im no expert in lead, lead alloys, or barrel metals. Is there anything that You can recommend for a quick education on my issue? Or anything you can tell me?

[indian joe]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I try to be an all around handyman, but its hard to keep track of everything. Im no expert in lead, lead alloys, or barrel metals. Is there anything that You can recommend for a quick education on my issue? Or anything you can tell me?

Kev
You have a fine 120 year old rifle - plenty of fellers would "give their eye teeth" for one just like it - be happy with it - shoot it as it was intended - 250 grain boolit at 1500-1600fps is gonna do most things you want anyway - if it was me I would keep the alloy soft enough that you get a nice mushroom if you shoot it into a soft dirt bank at 100yards - if you can cover your group with a spread hand at that distance you will kill a deer - its good enough to knock a rabbit or a fox at 50 - and if you want to target shoot you can have a lot of fun for not much money and that old rifle will still be good enough to hand on to your offspring.

If you cant get it shooting good enough to be satisfying 1) you could get the barrel relined 2) there is a bloke down in florida (I think) that will make a replacement barrel complete with the winchester markings - but those are options for later I reckon - take yr time wih this old gun

[Kev18]

Kev
You have a fine 120 year old rifle - plenty of fellers would "give their eye teeth" for one just like it - be happy with it - shoot it as it was intended - 250 grain boolit at 1500-1600fps is gonna do most things you want anyway - if it was me I would keep the alloy soft enough that you get a nice mushroom if you shoot it into a soft dirt bank at 100yards - if you can cover your group with a spread hand at that distance you will kill a deer - its good enough to knock a rabbit or a fox at 50 - and if you want to target shoot you can have a lot of fun for not much money and that old rifle will still be good enough to hand on to your offspring.

If you cant get it shooting good enough to be satisfying 1) you could get the barrel relined 2) there is a bloke down in florida (I think) that will make a replacement barrel complete with the winchester markings - but those are options for later I reckon - take yr time wih this old gun

It shoots great, but i was just wondering to add a bit more power to the bullet. I have some 260, 280 and now im waiting on a new 300 grain mold.

[uscra112]

It shoots great, but i was just wondering to add a bit more power to the bullet. I have some 260, 280 and now im waiting on a new 300 grain mold.

Go easy. The rifle is a historical treasure. Hot-rodding that Winchester reminds me of the old practice of stuffing Ford V8s into a MG TDs that was popular in the early '60s. Rich kid in my high school drove one his father had had built. The chassis couldn't take the weight. Something broke while he was sportin' about on a back road. Hit an embankment and killed his girlfriend. Worse, he destroyed an irreplaceable TD.

Scrounge up a strong single-shot to rebarrel if you want to explore the power potential of smokeless powders in that cartridge. A High-Wall 1885 would be appropriate.

[Kev18]

I wouldnt say I'm hot roddin anything. And im not a fan of adding stress to the rifle. I've been shooting it with factory ballistics and it's been working nice, so I guess it will stay like that for now.

[waksupi]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I try to be an all around handyman, but its hard to keep track of everything. Im no expert in lead, lead alloys, or barrel metals. Is there anything that You can recommend for a quick education on my issue? Or anything you can tell me?

If you want a quick education in handloading, the stickies are the short cut. If that takes too much time for you, I highly recommend a different hobby.

[Kev18]

If you want a quick education in handloading, the stickies are the short cut. If that takes too much time for you, I highly recommend a different hobby.

Not handloading, id need something on the effects of fast bullets in old barrels.

[uscra112]

Leaving everything else aside, all you need to know is that at some point, shooting cast bullets only, you'll get leading, and lots of it. There's no attainable speed that will do damage to the barrel from speed alone, unless you want to stipulate that damage due to aggressive de-leading methods counts.

Shooting metal patch bullets, there's no speed slow enough to eliminate wear to the rifling.

In the time when that rifle was made, paper patching was still the preferred technology for the large-caliber military military rifles in Europe, and was preferred by many of the men who were finishing off the last of the buffalo in our western states. Paper-patched bullets do not lead barrels, and do not wear barrels, no matter what kind of powder is used nor at what velocity. The NRA's Col. Harrison wrote extensively on his PP experiments, which among other things pushed PP bullets to 3000 fps (in strong rifles!). Do some reading on paper patching. I'm sure Harrison's articles can be found somewhere. And I would be surprised if research did not turn up factory 40-82 ammo loaded with paper patched bullets.

[john.k]

i have a old 450 rifle ,1871,and when I first got it ,many years ago,there was a lot of Hornady 45 rifle bullets about........meant for 458 W,Im thinking......anyway,these bullets noticeably flattened the rifling....not wore ,flattened.....probably about 300 shots.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=uscra112;4655323]Leaving everything else aside, all you need to know is that at some point, shooting cast bullets only, you'll get leading, and lots of it.

Rubbish!!!! He says the bore is good - the rifle shoots good - if he uses good fitting boolits with decent lube - and keeps the speed to 1500or less should not have a problem.
If he gets a lot of leading then he got something wrong with his load or the barrel is rough. Grease groove boolits wont wear the rifling at all - I'd bet PP more likely to wear it than greasers. (you will do more wear cleaning than either)

[uscra112]

Reading comprehension, IJ. The context is about boosting his MV, and sure enough, at some elevated velocity his barrel will start to lead, unless he starts using hard lead with gas checks or paper patches. Frankly, I think he'll be risking the rifle by excessive pressure before he gets there, but that wasn't the context.

Harry Pope used to show a Schuetzen barrel he used himself with PP bullets. Claimed over 100,000 rounds through it. Still perfect.

Yes, all too many of those Winchester lever guns were spoiled by cleaning from the muzzle than were worn out by shooting.

[john.k]

Actually,I think more were ruined by not cleaning from either end .

[waksupi]

[QUOTE=uscra112;4655323]Leaving everything else aside, all you need to know is that at some point, shooting cast bullets only, you'll get leading, and lots of it.

Rubbish!!!! He says the bore is good - the rifle shoots good - if he uses good fitting boolits with decent lube - and keeps the speed to 1500or less should not have a problem.
If he gets a lot of leading then he got something wrong with his load or the barrel is rough. Grease groove boolits wont wear the rifling at all - I'd bet PP more likely to wear it than greasers. (you will do more wear cleaning than either)

I agree. I haven't had any leading in any of my rifles or handguns once I figured out the proper bullet size and lube. I do push some of the rifle rounds fast!

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=uscra112;4655402]Reading comprehension, IJ. The context is about boosting his MV, and sure enough, at some elevated velocity his barrel will start to lead, unless he starts using hard lead with gas checks or paper patches. Frankly, I think he'll be risking the rifle by excessive pressure before he gets there, but that wasn't the context.
I just took it how ya wrote it - ya left out the bit about elevating the velocity - I though we had him talked out of the go faster thing already

Harry Pope used to show a Schuetzen barrel he used himself with PP bullets. Claimed over 100,000 rounds through it. Still perfect.
hmm 10 shots per day every day of his life for 27 years ????

[Kev18]

I was just asking to gain abit of knowledge. Im not set on increasing the fps, and I never shot any jacketed bullets.
Good to know though that lead will not wear the barrel if lubed.

[john.k]

Strange ideas some people get about cast......I had a guy come rushing up to me ,and say to stop firing straight away,or Id blow up the gun.........why?...because he d been counting ,and I fired more than 5 "lead bullets".......I said.."mate ,there is 70 more here,and Ill fire them all in the next couple of hours".........Then he goes on about how he seen it happen.......I think he may have been crazy.......cause ..believe it or not.....sometimes socialworkers bring disabled people down to the range....to meet other people...(and cause there are disabled facilities,like ramps and toilets, and parking.)...............one point,never PP with cheap rcycled paper,its full of abrasive whitener,and will wear barrels.

[Chev. William]

The Last time I Paper Patched a Bullet, I used Rag based 'Onion skin' paper. I have not seen it for sale in any Stationary Store since. For that matter, I have not seen an open Stationary Store for decades either.

Worked Well for my Black Powder Behind Lead loads in my Iver Johnson 'Cattleman' Single Action 44-40 Revolver.

Chev. William

[Kev18]

Strange ideas some people get about cast......I had a guy come rushing up to me ,and say to stop firing straight away,or Id blow up the gun.........why?...because he d been counting ,and I fired more than 5 "lead bullets".......I said.."mate ,there is 70 more here,and Ill fire them all in the next couple of hours".........Then he goes on about how he seen it happen.......I think he may have been crazy.......cause ..believe it or not.....sometimes socialworkers bring disabled people down to the range....to meet other people...(and cause there are disabled facilities,like ramps and toilets, and parking.)...............one point,never PP with cheap rcycled paper,its full of abrasive whitener,and will wear barrels.

I never heard about that but ok.

[uscra112]

Glossy papers are coated with clay in a binder. When paper is recycled, they have no way of ensuring that some of that clay isn't in the recycled product, even if they wanted to eliminate it.

Come to my estate auction when I die. There will be what's left of a full ream of rag bond that I bought 20 years ago.

[john.k]

Its worse than that.....recycled paper tends to be yellowish,so both fine grain silica flour and titanium dioxide are added as whiteners.......When I want to polish an old BP barrel ,I use PP made from $4 a pack computer printer paper.Shines em up nice,and enough will shine em into a smoothbore.

[Kev18]

I probably wont PP anytime soon. I just received a new mold in the mail. The original bullet is 260gr. This one casts a 300 grain. Nice little pill.