Weird

[docone31]

Now for the metal specialists.
I had my pot all stoked up, on setting 9, what ever that is on my Lee Pot.
I was gleely casting away, getting great results in my misbehaving mold. A great day in other words. No wrinkles, no bubbles, no dragged sprue, nothing to complain about.
I went to recharge my pot. I had this "lead" That I had acquired from a customer.
I made it into ingots.
I popped my lead into the pot, and popped two of his ingots into the pot.
Casting was great! Smooth, steady, good drop outs, nothing to complain about.
Well, I just went to check the pot.
I had tossed about 20 messed up gas check rejects.
Where did the checks go?
They were on the bases of the rejects. They were floating on top of the melt. They were floating when I put in the ingots. I watched them get pushed aside while the ingots melted into the batch.
They are gone! Nowhere to be seen! I did not take them out! I cannot stir them up, there is no sign of the checks.
Something ate them.
I use Kitty Litter for flux in my pot. The Kitty Litter is floating on top with slag on it.
Hmmmmm.
Hey, the casting went great.
Did something eat my checks?
Anyone had this happen before?

[HeavyMetal]

search your "Kitty Litter" more throughly! Copper checks don't melt in a lee pot.

They have to be in the flux!

[docone31]

That was what I first thought. I am a silver smith and do a lot of casting.
No way, the heat from a Lee Pot could digest the checks.
Is there something in the added melt?
Those puppies are gone, I mean gone.
Usually, when I melt rejects, they just float untill I get rid of them. Once I get a mold going pretty well, I do not stop untill my hands cramp up. The checks are usually still there.
Not this time.

[HeavyMetal]

What do you use to scoop the flux out of the pot with?

Is it possible the cks might be stuck to the bottom of that?

[docone31]

I made a firebrick casting station for casting. I flick my slag, checks, and whatever out with a screwdriver onto the firebrick. I also use a narrow screwdriver to stir the bottom of the pot around the edges, and spout.
I had thought of that.
I have my Kerr Furnace for silver that rests on top of the firebrick. When I melt for boolitts, I put the furnace on a lower shelf, bring the pot up to the brick. That way, I can clean my bricks after a mess. I use the lead spatter to inquart with silver when I refine my gold.
These boys be gone. I am suspecting something digested the copper. Perhaps the mystery metal is high in tin, and zinc.
When I inquart, I mix 50% silver, with lead into mixed karat gold. I then use Aqua Regia to digest the metals. Once digested, I drop out the silver, then filter to drop out pure gold with sodium meta-bisulphate. I usually do not cross contaminate metals.
Something digested the copper checks, at fairly low temperature.

[kooz]

I noticed that you said your pot was set on 9, which is the highest setting on the LEE pot. Your melt could have been over 1000 degrees easy, were you using a thermometer ? gas checks may have melted.

[Ricochet]

My Lee pot on 9 won't melt or dissolve checks. I've "lost" a check before and thought it dissolved, but they always turn up later.

[TCLouis]

Any chance there was some Mercury in "his" ingots?

I hope not for your sake, but that could likely make copper disappear.

[docone31]

I have been wondering on this.
I know, there is absolutely no way the Lee Pot, or anything like it could possibly do anything more than firescale the outside of the copper.
I have had before, when soldering, have the tip erode from using acid core solder for electronics. I did apply when cold, to the solid melt, some acid flux.
I had thought, I was getting a reaction with a metal, eroding the copper. I had thought, I was waay too hot in the pot.
Frankly, my castings were without frosting, textbook smooth, with sharp corners on the lube lands. They also size with the same effort as my previous batch. If there was mercury in the melt, it would show as a red oxide. There would have been streaks of red, almost the colour of cinnabar.
This one really has me interested. There is no extra oxide on the pot walls. An indication of chloride prescence. I mean steel oxide. I have found none of that. The Kitty Litter, did have green scent pieces, with charcoal. I am wondering, if the scent had an effect on the melt.
Perhaps I am looking too closely. I have to look closely at things in my shop, but lead is not that critical. It has leeway with temperature.
I am wondering, if the mystery lead had an high zinc content. If that is the case, then I have cast many boolitts with high zinc content. Zinc will digest copper under heat and absence of oxidation. Since acid tests with lead, zinc, tin, produce the same results, that test is out. Essentially, tin and muriatic acid produces Stannous Chloride, zinc, and lead also makes a chloride.
This one has me interested. I will tell you what, I got some real clean, crisp castings.
I had attributed this to the higher heat on the mold, and pot. Maybe it is the alloy.
I just wish I knew what I have.
I did learn, Kitty Litter in a bottom pour pot, is great flux! All the oxides stick to it without clumping. I have not yet had such a clean pot.
I am also wondering, if the "lead" was a "pewter", or white casting metal. I just clanged the bars together, and they sound like my other wheel weight alloy.
I have not weighed the castings yet. I do know the weight of the wheel weight only castings.
183gns on the average. I will bring home a scale later this weekend.

[Lead pot]

You might have gotten ahold of some copper plated zinc gas checks.

[rhead]

If the ingots were tin or very high in tin the copper could have disolved. It will take place well below the melting point of copper. Your discription of bullets without frosting and very sharp corners would indicate the presence of tin. If it is high enough to dosplve copper I have no idea. The density of the bullets should give a clue.

[docone31]

They were Lyman Checks. wewwy expensive!!! Paper only now.
rhead, I do indeed plan on weighing them. That will tell a lot.
Those ingots did melt very quickly. I did notice that.
Tin could be quite corrosive to copper under the right circumstances.
I wonder how they will shoot.
I am going to the range, barring other things, and should have 60 empties to reload. My dies should have come back to me by then.
Next thing to do is weigh them.

[44man]

Internal condom boolits! WOW! :drinks:

[looseprojectile]

.357 boolits of copper babbit. Boolits were pink, absoutely no leading at any speed. Wish I could get more. I will have to look into that. Those Ruger flattops are strong and tough.
Sounds as though you are having fun.

Life is good

[Hardcast416taylor]

Kind of sounds like the little boy that swallowed the pennies. He told his mother "All gone now", that is until she poured the cod liver oil into him! The pennies surfaced by the other exit shortly. I`ve been casting, one thing or another, for over 40 years. I am a retired plumber that melted a pound or three of solder and lead. The gas checks should have floated and been removed, IF they were copper.:groner:

[docone31]

Well, if they were copper! That might be a valid issue. I just might melt on and see.
I went into the shop today, and on my scale I weighed three boolitts from this melt.
The mold is a 185gn mold. The weights were for wheel weight, 184 183 183.
With the alloy in question, 180 178 179.
That is way off the 185 mold weight. They do not scratch with a fingernail. They do however, size well to .308. That is all I care about . With wrapping, a good hard boolit should keep together fairly well.
We will soon see. I plan on going to the range on Tuesday, to empty some cases for new patching. My .30cal mold should be arriving this week, and I am psyched!
I might just try one unpatched at .314 to see if this alloy can take jacketed speeds without leading, or tumbling.
Too bad I have no clue what the alloy is.
I just know it melts in the Lee pot.

[Ricochet]

Well now, if you've got some sort of babbitt, that might dissolve copper.

[docone31]

That is what I was thinking. It is not an ordinary lead alloy.
The oxidation from the heat alone on the copper, would prevent "soldering", allowing a metal to act as a digester on the copper checks. In this case, no checks were found in the melt, either on the surface, or felt and floating later.
These castings are hard! I can make a mark with a fingernail, but no real easy scratch.
I plan on using this stuff spareingly on my casting. I am going to load up 50 after the range work with the wheel weight castings, and compare them.
It would be nice if this works.

[waksupi]

Since copper melting point is listed at 1983 degrees, I just can't imagine they melted in anything less than a forge!

[docone31]

When melting copper, you need an high temp flux, and a backflame! I use charcoal to melt copper on.
That is what had me in such a quandry over this.
I wonder what the checks were made of. I haven't melted one yet.
On another note, on the same subject.
Sizing these puppies is a tough one!
When I cast wheel weight, I go straight from as cast to .308. I already tried that. One made it, the next one got jammed.
I am not sizing .314, most pass through, .311 all get sizing, .309, definate sizing although easy, .308 same as .309.
I use the Lee Push Thru system. Now, I am rotating each casting randomly with four passes through the sizing die pending finale wrapped size.
I am not using that much pressure so I am not bending any castings.
So far, so smooth.
They sure look good.

[wheelgunner]

My Lee pot set on between 5 and 6 gives a pretty consistent 650-700 degrees. If I set it between 7 and 8 which I sometimes do to get a melt started and then forget to turn it back down, gets the mix over 800 degrees (lyman casting thermometer) I assume setting it at 9 may get the temp over 900 (really don't want to experiment with temps this high). Would 900 degrees coupled with a high tin content cause the thin copper gas check to disolve into the alloy?

[docone31]

Maybe, my only thought on that is the oxide development as the copper gets hot.
My experience in working with copper in silver jewelery, you can keep on silversoldering sterling, and fine silver when copper is completely firescaled, preventing solder flow.
I am suspecting something acted as a flux, which allowed the apparently high tin content to digest the copper into an alloy. Not neccesarily the heat index.
I do know, the castings came out great! I usually have some imperfections. This time, only one, and it was flash that stuck to the ogive. It came off easily.
Sizing is another issue. These guys are tough! I had to down size four steps.
I am preparing to wrap tonite. That will give at least 48hrs for the patches to dry so I can size.
I have high hopes on this one.
I know how the .3135 shot in comparison to factory loads. Paper shot better.

[Linstrum]

Cadmium will dissolve copper rapidly like mercury, it is in the same family of elements as zinc and mercury. Cadmium/tin alloy was once common in solders used for aluminum and it looks just like tin/lead solder, so you may have added a high-cadmium content solder to your melt.

Cadmium is quite toxic, just like mercury, although its vapor pressure is substantially lower than mercury. I wouldn't worry about it, though, unless you shoot at an indoor range, just use it up.


rl454

[Tom W.]

Bullets that are hard to size ( for me, anyway ) were cast using Nickle Babbitt. I used it on a daily basis for years until the sawmill shut down. The bullets that I cast with it were super hard, Very sharp, and lighter than advertised, and recovered bullets were barely deformed, unless they hit a rock or something in the backstop.


The Nickle Babbitt had an amount of copper in it, and no lead, mostly tin, so the OSHA people would leave us alone, and as I keep my Lee pot wide open, didn't have any trouble with it melting. At the mill I kept my pot around 650*. It was a huge one, that held about 500 pounds. I could throw in a new penny at that temp and it would melt, but the older pennies would not, nor would any bullet jackets that we retrieved from logs.

I gotta go visit the supplier and see if I can beg another ingot......

[madsenshooter]

Mercury boils at 674F, so that wasn't what ate your gaschecks. I wonder if having a babbitt that already contains copper would perhaps draw the gaschecks into the alloy. Hornady gaschecks appear to me to be gilding metal, that's 95% copper 5% zinc. Now if the alloy you added also contained zinc, there is a reaction used to produce a reagent known as zinc-copper couple. The early method for synthesis of this reagent was treatment of zinc and copper oxide with hydrogen gas at 932F.

[TAWILDCATT]

my suggestion is to get a ladle with holes,kitchen section and all metal except handle.thats what I use as ladle to get the slag and clips out when melting WW.
it will strain the slag.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[cajun shooter]

Do you have any of those expenisive Lymans left? It would be nice to see if they are all copper. Thats why I buy the H brand for $22 a box.