fighting the battle of the bulge!

[olskool]

well I think I need a little help! let me give a little background on me. I have been handloading since 1967 so I am not exactly new to it. I have been casting since 1981 I have been fighting the battle of the bulge in straight wall cases for years. I had a lot of problems with 45 acp years back. I started using an M die and a Redding competition seat die and it helped significantly. well today I tried loading up some full HBWC in 44 special and they bulge so bad that most wont fit in the chamber. I am using an M die and the seating stem in the RCBS die is not totally correct but in dose seam to sit square and straight on the nose of the boolit, I don't think the stem is the whole problem because even with the correct one in 38/357 there is still a significant bulge at times. and there doesn't seam to be certain brand of brass that helps or hurts the situation. is there any better seating stem I can order? I am using single stage RCBS A2 and 2A presses. for what ever reason the concentricity is not correct. are there any ideas,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[DougGuy]

You don't mention whether you size your boolits or use them as cast, It sounds to me like boolits are larger than they need to be. A slight bulge with a cast boolit is a good thing, since crimping alone will not give consistent ignition, you need decent case neck tension which you obviously have.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with DougGuy a slight bulge even around the case can be a good thing. With many bullets a perfect fit of the bullet nose in the seat stem is essential.....close does not often get it.

Also could be your sizer (assuming a carbide sizer?) is sizing the cases too much. If you have an old steel sizer you might try that as they usually don't size the cases as much. Or you could get a larger (suggest .002 under bullet diameter) expander from NOE.

[country gent]

Bullet dia may be the culprit here. measure some of your bullets and see how big they are. Is the bulge at the base of the bullet? or where is it located along the case. I have had bulges when seating a long wadcutter style bullet deep in short cases when the bullet is getting into the cases taper to deep. I would think a Hollow base bullet would collapse to match this rather than expand the case though.
Knowing where the budge is along the case would help a lot. ( A heavy crimp may cause a bulge just behind the case mouth).

[olskool]

it is not a "good thing" when they wont go in the chamber! LOL the boolits are sized correctly .431 and no it is not a heavy crimp causing it. they bulge "to much" even without a crimp. there is probably several things at play causing it. there is a lot of talk on line about it but I have saw no real tangible salutations to the problem ,,,,,,,,,,,

[mattw]

Are the chambers perhaps undersized?

[sureYnot]

I have the same issue with a couple pistols. Maybe 3-4 out of 100 are too bulged to chamber. Solution was to run them PARTIALLY into the sizing die. Just enough to get them to plunk. This'll take the bulge out without ruining tension. If you run it all the way up, it'll swage down the boolit.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Taterhead]

Need to check the dimensions of the shank on your expander vs the bullet diameter. If trying to fit too wide a bullet into a case that is not sufficiently expanded, less desirable results may follow, including asymmetric bulging.

To be clear, I'm not referring to the amount or shape of the case mouth flair. In referring to the dimension of the internal diameter of the neck vs bullet diameter.

Secondly, For some guns I must brass sort for the thinnest brass. E.g. FC for 9mm and R-P for 45 Auto. Otherwise too thick overall for consistent chambering.

[olskool]

Need to check the dimensions of the shank on your expander vs the bullet diameter. If trying to fit too wide a bullet into a case that is not sufficiently expanded, less desirable results may follow, including asymmetric bulging.

To be clear, I'm not referring to the amount or shape of the case mouth flair. In referring to the dimension of the internal diameter of the neck vs bullet diameter.

Secondly, For some guns I must brass sort for the thinnest brass. E.g. FC for 9mm and R-P for 45 Auto. Otherwise too thick overall for consistent chambering.
taterhead that is the track I am on. I know it is frustrating! I have had it happen in straight walled rifle brass, such as the 444 but they always chamber fine.

[DougGuy]

the boolits are sized correctly .431

.431" + 2x case neck thickness (assuming they are .011" or close, Starline averages .011") of .022" = .453"

I could not find a chamber drawing for 44 Special, but SAAMI specs for the cartridge itself lists .456" as the diameter at the case mouth (below the crimp). Wikipedia lists .457" which I think it mistakenly taken from the chamber drawing which is pretty close. This is a straight walled cartridge, the chamber itself is tapered to ease extraction and most 44 caliber cylinders I have encountered would easily plunk a .432" loaded into a 44 magnum case. Essentially there is no difference in SAAMI specs for case diameter for 44 magnum and 44 special only the cartridge and or chamber length.

You don't say what model gun this is, but I can tell you from experience that I have seen a number of Ruger cylinders with undersize chambers, one particular cylinder measured several thousandths tighter in two chambers than it did in the other four. Ruger would not address this issue in two trips back to the bakery for repairs. I had to buy a finishing reamer and ream the two chambers so the cylinder was usable again.

The way this happens is this. I don't know what they are using currently, because the medium frame guns are excellently fit and finished and I have seen none of the inconsistencies in cylinders that used to be commonplace, but before this they used a Hitachi machine with 3 chucks, they would gang ream 3 holes, index the cylinder one hole and gang ream the other 3. They throated cylinders the same way. Nothing wrong with this method, BUT... They didn't change all of the reamers when the wore too small to cut an acceptable chamber, they would only change the one that was unserviceable, leaving the other two worn cutters to do more work before they replaced those also.

Your cylinder is probably the cause of the problem and could suffer from tight chambers from being made with worn tooling. There is no way a round loaded with .431" boolits will fail to plunk in a chamber that is even remotely close to the SAAMI spec of .457" unless it measures larger than .457" when assembled and crimped, *OR* the chamber itself is smaller than the assembled boolit..

What do your loaded rounds measure just under the crimp?

[olskool]

I have 3 different guns. a ruger bisley flat top. a charter arms "boomer" a smith Wesson model 24-3 it ain't the gun, it happens in them all. the bulge is pronounced in most cases. I just ran across this special Redding expander die, maybe,,,,,,,,,,,

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/806143/redding-premium-expander-die

[DougGuy]

Some pics and some measurements would help a LOT in members trying to assist with the issue.

[Tripplebeards]

I noticed a buldge when loading j words in 44 specials the last time I loaded. Mine fit fine in my cylinders though. I did also have the same issue with my 45 colt vaquero...I forgot I never sized the boolts after PCing. My fault. All my straight wall pistol ammo I load for ALWAYS has a buldge. I just forget about it and shoot. My buldged cast boolit ammo shoots .6" groups at a 100 yards out of my 77/44 when I do my part. I believe buldge is good for neck pressures. ..as long as they chamber. Did you pull a me and not size your boolits? I've also caused buldging by adjusting my dies to low.

[olskool]

242242242243242244

this is as bad as they get. .458 at the biggest part of the bulge. about 2 out of 10 is fine and slide right into the chamber. also I have been loading for the 44 sp. and mag. for many decades. this is the only time I have had it happen with the 44 sp. because I am loading the HBWC and as you know it goes deep into the case.

[olskool]

I noticed a buldge when loading j words in 44 specials the last time I loaded. Mine fit fine in my cylinders though. I did also have the same issue with my 45 colt vaquero...I forgot I never sized the boolts after PCing. My fault. All my straight wall pistol ammo I load for ALWAYS has a buldge. I just forget about it and shoot. My buldged cast boolit ammo shoots .6" groups at a 100 yards out of my 77/44 when I do my part. I believe buldge is good for neck pressures. ..as long as they chamber. Did you pull a me and not size your boolits? I've also caused bulding by adjusting my dies to low.

as I stated above they were sized on my star at .431,,,,,,,

[DougGuy]

May we see a pic of the boolit by itself? What brass is this?

I thought I would never live to see the day I would be in favor of a carbide sizer like the Lee FCD has, but this is down to a math problem the FCD would fix. It's obvious that there isn't enough room at that part of the chamber for a .431" boolit, + the even thicker at that point brass, so something will have to give.

The boolit is the softest part of the equation so I would say that the base of the boolit must be smaller so not to force the brass out beyond the chamber diameter. You could run the loaded round through a die sized .457" and get by with that, although it would size the base of the boolit down as much as it is needed to make the bulge fit in the chamber, and with a hollow base prehaps it will obturate once free of the case.

You could take a Lee .452" push through sizer and hone it out to .457" and run the ones that bulge real bad through that, it is actually the cheapest fix at $22 or so for the die.

You could alternately seat the boolit to the top lube groove in the case and crimp there, extending the COA length, but the boolit wouldn't be seated far enough down to bulge as much. This is even cheaper fix, you would need to adjust the load data accordingly.

[olskool]

242248 not much to see but here you go. why would a lee factory crimp die help? the brass is mixed but it dose it will any. most is ww brass,,,,,,,,,

[DougGuy]

Hmm. What weight are those?

The FCD is intended to iron out bulges in the outside of the case. It has a carbide ring in the bottom that slides down over the assembled round, sizing down any bulges. You would probably need one custom made to the .457" dimension. If your chambers are to spec, .457" would plunk in all of them. Apparently the boolits with a bulge larger than .458" are the problem. The FCD would uniform that.

If it were me, I would just seat out longer and crimp in the top groove, then adjust load data accordingly. This would put the base of the boolit higher in the case where the walls are thinner. Case walls get thicker as they get to the rim.

[Walks]

I don't know why these problems are cropping up now.
I've been reloading for 60 years. Back when we used steel sizing dies, M-die expanders and sized bullets to .430 for .44spl/mag.
We never had these problems. Used COWW/#2 for most loads. Rarely had anything of Leading.

Even using carbide dies these days. I don't have bulge problems, except with one case/load.

I load .44WCF using a Lyman die set from the 1960's. I seat a .428 diameter bullet which causes a bulge in the case. The old sizer die sizes the case farther down because the old chamberings of .44WCF were sized farther down for .425 diameter bullets.

Remington Jackets bullets used to be .425 diameter. And Lyman made the #42498 bullet mold, this year they discontinued the #42798 bullet mold.

I think Carbide sizer dies are made too small. And bullets are being sized too big.

Too many folks are using the Lee FCD as a crutch for poor die adjustment or cheaply made dies.

[Tripplebeards]

I just remembered why my specials bulged with j words. I loaded hornady 180 grain xtp's and I was having trouble seating them and they started crooked...some were completely seated crooked with bullet sitting at an angle. Needless to say I pulled them and started over.

Is the bulge even all the way around? If not you might have started your bolts crooked like I did.

Looks to me like your boolits are too long and your case narrows towards the base causing your bulge if I had to guess. Take a dummy round and don't seat it as deep and slowly keep adjusting your die down till it bulges. At least you will find out at what length the issue starts and maybe you'll have enough room in your cylinder for the extra length.

[jimb16]

Check your case wall thicknesses. Sounds like they may be out of spec. And check you case lengths too.

[DeputyDuke]

242248 not much to see but here you go. why would a lee factory crimp die help? the brass is mixed but it dose it will any. most is ww brass,,,,,,,,,

I'm confused, so my comments make be completely wrong. Are you seating these wadcutters completely into the case s they are flush at the mouth? I have 180 gr. and a 245 gr. Lyman full wadcutter moulds and I crimp in the top groove with only the grease grooves in the case. Any reason you can't crimp in that top groove and leave that big full nose outside of the case?

[JM7.7x58]

I was having the same problem in my 38 special wadcutter load. I tried two different solutions. The first was to sort my brass. One headstamp in particular had tapered and thicker case walls. The chambering problem went away when I sorted out the thicker brass. Small bulge still remained however.

The other thing I was doing was seating the wadcutters flush. I have started to seat the boolit out to the first tumble lube groove. The bulge has gotten smaller.
JM

[Forrest r]

I'd be taking a hard look at 3 different things:

Calipers are ok for some things but mics are better. When I use calipers I'll test them with block gauges for accuracy.
https://i.imgur.com/hQD2JT1.jpg

Mics are more accurate than calipers but they also need checked and reset.
https://i.imgur.com/pOeogOV.jpg


Your sizing die is sizing the heck out of those cases, the end result is the wasp waist look your getting (bullet bulge). Case neck tension is a good thing. But too much neck tension is bad & will create other issues. Even if you have the correct diameter expander it has to have a long enough body to go deep enough into the case to expand the case where it counts the most. Namely the bullets base.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

IMHO:
Looking at your reloads is seems that your cases are over sized and then under expanded/not expanded deep enough. Add to that the bullets are not being seated strait and are going to the least point of resistance. The more force it takes to seat the large/long bullet into the under sized/under expanded case. The greater the chance for the bullet to angle to the least point of resistance and having the wrong seating stem makes it easier for this to happen.


A ca bulldog (44spl) with 220gr hbwc's loaded backwards. The 220gr hbwc's are sized to .431".
https://i.imgur.com/UmdYHdc.jpg

Same bullets (220grhbwc's/.431") loaded in 44spl cases for a s&w 624. They are seated flush & crimped at different seating depths looking for accuracy along with lubed in both grooves, 1 groove & tumble lubed.
https://i.imgur.com/VorIu2C.jpg

What you don't see is bullet bulge or wasp waist with any of those reloads. That's because I honed my sizing die out for the larger .431" bullets. Most sets of dies are designed for short bodied jacketed bullets. The sizing dies tend to over size the cases to have a death grip on those .429" jacketed bullets. It's just not needed 3/1000th's neck tension is plenty. Measure you sized case and then a case that's been loaded with 1 of your wc bullets. You're more than most likely in the +/- 8/1000th's neck tension range. I've used a lyman m-die expander for decades for all my 44spl/mag cast bullet loads. Never had a problem with it so I've never used anything else. You should use a flat faced seating stem in your seating die for those wc's. If you don't have 1 simply buy a bolt that matches the threads of your seating die and use it.

Myself I'd start by checking the calipers. Then get expander die designed for the longer/larger cast bullets (NEO is a good place to call, they will set you up with excellent expanders for little $$$). Lastly I'd be taking a look at your sizing die. I have 2 sets of reloading dies for my 44spl's/mags. 1 for cast bullets (.430"/.431") and the other for jacketed bullets (.429"). The cast bullet die set has a honed sizing die and uses a m-die for expanding the cases. The jacketed bullet die set has a standard sizing die and a factory expander die.

Don't know if any of this helps but your 44spl wc reload look a lot different then mine.

[tangolima]

The bulge is fine unless it is uneven around the brass (bullet seated crooked) or it impedes chambering (bullet diameter + brass thickness too big).

Looks like we have a latter case here. 2 solutions. Lee FCD to work it back down, or better yet. Assuming correct bullet diameter, you can reduce brass thickness. I would seat the bullet shallower, where the brass is thinner. For revolver that allows the bullet further in the cylinder throat, and it may actually helps the accuracy.

Try handloading for nagant revolver. Now that is the real battle of the bulge without the bulge visible.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[RogerDat]

Any chance you can locate some actual wad cutter brass? I think it will often have a second canelure lower on the case. That brass should have straighter walls inside further down the case. I know it makes a difference in how well WC style bullets load in 38 special brass if I sort the WC brass out and use it for the HBWC bullets. I also have a 148 grain WC mold that has a crimp grove that leaves the bullet out of the case mouth just a bit. Ends up with the same amount of bullet in the case as a "regular" 158 grain bullet. Those don't get tight in regular .38 brass the way my deeper seating HBWC do.

I use the NOE expander plug mentioned in another post to size the inside of the case to fit cast bullets but I see you are using the Lyman M die which does the same thing. And since they won't chamber getting a slightly larger NOE if available wouldn't help.

I think you might want to figure out how deep your regular bullets seat and try to put the base of the HBWC that deep in the case. As others have suggested seat higher in the brass to avoid the bulge point. If that works then you know it is the case is thicker or tapered lower down causing the problem.

[tangolima]

Or you can ream out the inside of the brass, if you can find a reamer with proper diameter. In desperation I even used neck turner to turn the brass wall thinner.

-TL

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[RogerDat]

Or you can ream out the inside of the brass, if you can find a reamer with proper diameter. In desperation I even used neck turner to turn the brass wall thinner.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk I have heard of that reaming being required for some 30-06 brass trimmed and sized to 8mm mauser to avoid a bulge from the thicker brass further down the case where the new 8mm neck is now located.

[olskool]

today I will seat the boolit out further. I think "forrest r" has a good point, the sizer is sizing the heck out of that brass! and I have been thinking the brass wasn't expanded enough deep inside the case as well. I am going to take a look at the M die and make sure all is well with it, I have other M dies that seam to flare longer and deeper. maybe there is a problem with this one or maybe the wrong one some how? I have had it a long time. I think the boolit is taking the path of least or weakest resistance inside the brass. I am going to also sort the brass to find the thinnest case walls. and I do have a micrometer and more than one caliber. but the one I show in the photo is dead on. like I said I have been fighting with this for decades. I have been handloading 52 years now and this problem hangs on, but I will get to the bottom of it this time!

there has been a lot of good suggestions and info here and I do apprecheat it! i will keep this thread informed on the progress,,,,,,,,,,,,

[olskool]

242300242301242302

well I think I am getting there. this morning I was thinking about what "forrest r" said "Your sizing die is sizing the heck out of those cases"
I went out to the loading room and started over. I readjusted the size die. I backed off it several turns to where it only sized to about half the case. and bam! things started to improve. I set the die years ago and always thought it was correct, it worked fine for other boolits but when trying to seat all the way with the HBWC the problem arose. still I have a couple that has to big of a bulge to chamber, but I did notice with remington brass they work every time. I ordered 50 ct. new rem. brass today. thanks for all the input! and good advice,,,,,,,,,,,

[asmith80]

This has been a great thread for me to follow. I'm having some bulge issues in my 9mm after switching my RCBS dies out for Dillon dies. I'm going to try backing out the sizer a bit and see if I get a similar result

[Taterhead]

Some brass is just fragile. I have old 38 spl cases that bulge like that from the force of the spring from the case activated powder measure. Also bulge like that with long WC brass.

My solution was to recycle that brass and use some that are more tolerant. Starline cases are great in 38 spl as are WC spec brass. Not a lot of those WC cases are around though.

Glad you found a workaround, but the sizer adjustment is not an optimal long term solution since the lower part is not reaching all the way.

I'd also be sure that your expander reaches deep enough into the case to cover the full extent of the bullet bearing surface. That way it doesn't matter if your sizer sizes small. The expander shank will open it back up. I find an RCBS cowboy expander to work great. It is wider than typical and expands deep with an M profile case mouth.

Of course, as has been stated earlier, some cases are just too thick to allow for the deep seated WC.

[DougGuy]

well I think I am getting there. I ordered 50 ct. new rem. brass today. thanks for all the input! and good advice,,,,,,,,,,,

Good. I figured at most the bulge needed to be only a thou or two smaller and it would chamber all of the time. Seating out was one way to do that, using thinner(?) brass is another way, Squishing the bulge with a FCD was another way. Like it was, it was gonna go until the .458" bulge got near bouts to the .457" part of the chamber and it weren't gonna go any further.

[Dusty Bannister]

I think we were expecting the bullet to be loaded in the conventional HB configuration. Given the solid nose of the bullet was loaded first, there was no "give" that the hollow skirt would have afforded.

Pretty heavy roll crimp for a WC load. Perhaps mixed cases are also a factor.

[Echo]

My question is about the alloy you are using. Seems to me that regular (like WW+2%Sn) would be soft enough to swage down when it hit the thicker part of the case, especially with the thin tail shown in the pictures.

[skeettx]

When is the last time you cleaned your shell holders?
See if you have crud under the rim recesses
Mike

[olskool]

all good points and questions. the lead is 50% ww 50% pure soft. the bulge comes no matter if hollow end is loaded up or down. I know i still don't have it fixed 100% it is a combination of at least a couple of different factors, but I will keep at it and let ya'll know the outcome,,,,,,,,,

[Bama]

well I think I need a little help! let me give a little background on me. I have been handloading since 1967 so I am not exactly new to it. I have been casting since 1981 I have been fighting the battle of the bulge in straight wall cases for years. I had a lot of problems with 45 acp years back. I started using an M die and a Redding competition seat die and it helped significantly. well today I tried loading up some full HBWC in 44 special and they bulge so bad that most wont fit in the chamber. I am using an M die and the seating stem in the RCBS die is not totally correct but in dose seam to sit square and straight on the nose of the boolit, I don't think the stem is the whole problem because even with the correct one in 38/357 there is still a significant bulge at times. and there doesn't seam to be certain brand of brass that helps or hurts the situation. is there any better seating stem I can order? I am using single stage RCBS A2 and 2A presses. for what ever reason the concentricity is not correct. are there any ideas,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Had same problem with 38/357s. A few months and it abou drove me crazy. Had been using some old die sets . Bad thing it was not everyone , just about one or two in every other cylinder full. Save out about 50 bad one s. And a shooting buddy gave me a die to run them back through. All but a couple then worked with no issues. He told me the die was the number four die in a Lee four die set. Went out and got two sets so I didn’t have to change and readjust between 38 and 357. Problem solved. A lot of people run Lee equipment down but they are doing themselves a diss ervice sometimes.

[Three44s]

I had trouble with a Dan Wesson revolver in 41 Mag. The bullets were not bulging but the case body near the rim was just a bit oversized. A Lee FCD took care of it.

I use the FCD on other calibers and generally it just ticks a small bulge normally loaded rounds. Once in a while there is an occasional round that has a bit more bulge and the die will iron it out. I realize a lot of folks frown on the Lee FCD but I do not.

If a person feels the need they could always sort the individual cartridges out that the die interacts with to a greater extent and relegate those to dirt clod busters etc.

Three44s

[olskool]

I just ordered 3 Lee FCD dies. a 357 a 44 and a 45 acp for a friend of mine. interested to see how they do,,,,,,,,,,

[samari46]

I've been fighting the battle of the bulge for years and loosing. Too much of a food freak. Got a bad case of anal leakage some years back and dropped about 20 pounds in ten days. Definitely something I'd care to repeat. Down to 319 and for the last few years managed to vary a pound or two either way of the 319. Sorta OT but think you would enjoy it. Frank

[samari46]

Case in point. used to sweep up all the 38 special brass at my friends concealed carry classes. The wadcutter stuff was thin brass with a cannelure where the wadcutter would be when flush with the case mouth. The brass that fired the 132 jacketed military FMJ had no canneleure. Think a similar thread came up on the CBA forum quite sometime ago. And they were discussing the various thicknesses of a few types of 38 special brass. And by the way I'm now the proud owner of a 40mm ammo can full of the 38 special brass.Frank

[olskool]

the truth is I have been handloading 52 years or so and never thought about the factory using thinner brass for the WC loads. I guess because I never got into loading them heavy. anyway with adjusting the die I have all but completely eliminated my problem. with the lee FCD and the brass I ordered the problem should go completely away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[redhawk0]

I have an older 214gr WC LEE mold for my 44. (solid base design) It casts great boolits but I had the same problem you are experiencing. What I did was back off on the sizer die so it was sizing only 90% of the case. (RCBS carbide dies). Then instead of inserting the boolit flush with the case mouth I would seat to the crimp groove of the boolit. (left about 1/16" proud of the case mouth). This solved my bulge problem and they shoot well.

redhawk