One in a billion chance

[abunaitoo]

Gang was talking about it at the range.
Happened this past week
Should have gotten more details.
I'll ask more questions next weekend.

A loaded round rolled off a table, hit the ground, and went off.
It sounds hard to believe. I would think it would be impossible.
But three guys swear it happened.
Guy didn't get hurt. No damage to anything.
I'm thinking it's a one in a billion chance of happening.

Anyone ever hear of this happening?????

[Winger Ed.]

The closest thing like that that ever happened to me---- twice,
was washing some .45ACP brass, then drying them in the oven.

I was in a hurry, both times, so I cranked the oven up a little high.

When a live round cooked off- the brass looked like a piece of pop corn.
Other than the BANG !! in the kitchen, it was other wise uneventful.

If the round detonated like they say, I'd expect the brass to be torn, and opened up..... like pop corn.
Or, at least very swollen if the boolit pushed right off. And maybe the primer blown out.
As a kid, we'd put firecrackers in spent .30-06 brass.
It usually blew the primer out----- even without the mud plug in the neck that we'd shoot at each other.

It'd be interesting to look at the ground too.
In dirt- it shouldn't happen.
On concrete, the primer would have to hit something just perfectly, falling pretty far and tumbling.
If it didn't tumble, the weight of the boolit would make it want to land nose first.

[kevin c]

I've seen threads on this in the Brian Enos forums. The primer is hit by something sticking up from the surface that the round falls onto and the cartridge detonates. Not being contained, the propellant gasses dissipate without high pressure and the slug doesn't move with much velocity (the case, if intact, moves in the opposite direction and probably faster). Still some risk of shrapnel like injury, but not like a gun discharging after being dropped.

Pretty rare. I've never seen it happen personally. I imagine a round slipping through fingers or rolling off a flat surface would tend to fall heavy end/nose end down unless it got to spinning somehow.

We have so many discarded rounds buried in our gravel surfaced bays that it's fairly common to have one cook off under a burn barrel. Less risk of injury, in my opinion, than a detonating dropped round, since it happens under a steel 55 gal drum and is already half buried. Always funny to have a crowd around the barrel warming their hands when one goes off: the the newbies jump, the old timers just stand there talking sports. WHUMMPH - "yeah, how 'bout them Raiders?"...

[AllanD]

The only live rounds I've heard of going off when dropped were live 20mm cannon rounds.

a High-school classmate of my cousin who joined the USAF out of high-school came home
from desert storm in a flag draped aluminum box, because he dropped a live cannon round
while servicing an aircraft and the projectile detonated between his feet and he bled out before
they could stop the bleeding (it **** near amputated his foot)

[lightman]

The closest thing like that that ever happened to me---- twice,
was washing some .45ACP brass, then drying them in the oven.

I was in a hurry, both times, so I cranked the oven up a little high.

When a live round cooked off- the brass looked like a piece of pop corn.
Other than the BANG !! in the kitchen, it was other wise uneventful.

As a kid, we'd put firecrackers in spent .30-06 brass.
It usually blew the primer out----- even without the mud plug in the neck that we'd shoot at each other.

Wow, talk about bringing back memories! I remember doing this as a kid myself!

[Smoke4320]

Friend of mine when around for years with a primer in his leg. Says he thru a live round in a bonfire was standing just a couple of feet from the fires edge.
Beer played a heavy part in this story

[lightman]

I don't know about 1 in a billion but I bet the odds are pretty high. The primer just about had to have struck something. And I agree, this should have had a very minimal amount of danger involved. Just excitement! Probably the biggest danger was having ones face getting peppered with brass.

Now, a situation like AllenD describes, with explosive rounds is another thing. Thats sad to hear. RIP Sir!

[kevin c]

That 20mm cannon round - sounds like it landed nose first on its contact fuze. Sad to hear of it.

[RGrosz]

I was once at a pistol match. The 4th Army Championship in Camp Robinson AR. We had just shot the slow fire stage and was down scoring the targets when we heard a pistol shot. After everyone got up again we investigated to see what was wrong. One of the competitors evidently had stored a box of 45 ACP wrong, and it slid off the stand and fell 4' to the concrete . It landed flat on the primers and the full box acted like a short barreled gun and when it went off it went through the metal roof. A search of the grounds found the slug about 1/2 way to the targets and the rest of the box and ther rest of the rounds scattered at the base of his firing point. We can only figure that when it hit, there was a small rock under the box that set the primer off.

Rob

[Sig556r]

Lotsa folks tumble their completed rounds which has more probability to go bang than just rolling off a table...either way it's still more than 1:1B...just my 2 cents

[RED BEAR]

Very little chance of anyone getting hurt since bullet is heavier than case its the case that tries to move. Actually saw this on myth busters once they surrounded a fire with plywood and put loaded rounds in fire even the 50 bmg rounds only stuck the cases slightly in plywood.

[BrassMagnet]

A friend dropped a loaded round of 264 Win Mag. The bullet penetrated several hardback books in a bookcase. Might have been able to cause a fatal injury. I did not see it happen or the books.
A military 45 ACP 230 FMJ was dropped at a military match. The case ended up funnel shaped and the bullet did not travel far. I did not see it happen.

[JimB..]

This discussion reminds me of UFOs, lots of second hand stories but no clear pictures even though cameras are now pervasive.

Not saying that it’s not possible or that it didn’t happen, just that if it did by now I’d expect the internet to be awash in photographic evidence.

[kevin c]

Lotsa folks tumble their completed rounds which has more probability to go bang than just rolling off a table...either way it's still more than 1:1B...just my 2 cents
That was discussed on the Enos forums too. I don't recall any of the reloaders there (and there are a lot) reporting a detonation from tumbling live rounds. Maybe the geometry is wrong (not enough curvature of the extractor rim or pointiness of the bullet nose) for contact with a properly seated primer, or not enough force while being jiggled around in a plastic walled vibratory tumbler full of cushioning media.

I've heard of people cleaning brass in cement mixers, where the cases can literally fall off the metal paddles up high and get dinged falling on those below. That might be a problem with live rounds, but I don't know anybody processing centerfire reloads that way. I do tumble 22LR in corn cob media in a vibratory tumbler (to take off some of the wax). No kabooms so far.

[Tom W.]

I wasn't a kid at the time, unless you want to compare then to now, but my buddy and I put firecrackers into 30-06 cases and squeezed the mouth tight. It didn't stop the flame from igniting the firecracker, but the results were much more than a blown out primer. We'd even get some CVA cannon fuse and fill the brass with black powder and toss it into the pond, or dig holes in the clay bank along the road and stuff the "bombs in the holes . That was really impressive to someone, because after doing so we'd hightail it back to the house. A few minutes later we'd see the sheriff's car come rolling through.....

Never thought of filming it, as it was pre- cellphone days.

Hickock45 has a video of a live round cook-off in a thin aluminum covered pot. The brass was a mess afterwards...

[LUBEDUDE]

If the bullet in the OP had a high primer, those odds would drop quite a bit.

[oldred]

Yes it certainly can happen, it happened to me when I was high school (a loooong time ago!). A friend of mine and I had been rabbit hunting and when we got home I broke open the old Stevens single shot 12 ga and failed to catch the shell as it was ejected backwards. We were standing in a gravel road and when that shell hit the gravel it exploded throwing lots of paper and wading (these were paper shells) but I don't think much lead shot. Whatever it was that hit both of us stung a bit and scared the you-know-what out of us but no actual harm done. The shell still had the paper hull attached to the brass base but it was torn into shreds on one side and only the other side held it to the brass. Not sure how far the lead shot went but apparently it had very little force although none could be found, just the brass base and what was left of the paper tube and lots of tufts of the fiber wading, etc laying around.


BTW, I thought that old firecracker in a shell was my idea! :p

What we did was take a cartridge case and remove the primer then using Dad's power drill we drilled out the primer pocket so that the fuse would stick through then the entire mess was attached to a stick to form a "pistol", projectiles would be about anything and everything we could get to fit.

I just don't think kids really know what real fun is these days! :mrgreen:

[DCP]

You might want to check the range out!
Be on the lookout for the Menehune.
Lots of strange things going on there.

[kevin c]

If the bullet in the OP had a high primer, those odds would drop quite a bit.
I'd think that the odds would go up. Just like a chambered round with a high primer, where the firing pin would be hitting a primer that wasn't sensitized by having its anvil seated against the base of the primer pocket, a rock would be hitting a primer that wouldn't go bang until a second strike, and what are the odds on that happening?

I have to confess to crushing a lot of primers, sideways and otherwise, in my press. Maybe I've been lucky, but none have gone off.

[LUBEDUDE]

I'd think that the odds would go up. Just like a chambered round with a high primer, where the firing pin would be hitting a primer that wasn't sensitized by having its anvil seated against the base of the primer pocket, a rock would be hitting a primer that wouldn't go bang until a second strike, and what are the odds on that happening?
..................

Not always the case.

I can not think of a single failure when pulling high primered 38s (no primer strike) out of my revolver and chambering it in my levergun.

[429421Cowboy]

I have heard of one credible case from someone I know that dropped a primed case and had it go off on the floor by his loading bench.
Reminds me of a story about a kid that used to be on the FD with me. He calls me, knowing I reload an know a good bit about ammo, "Hey, do you think a .40 could go off just from rolling off my coffee table and hitting the carpet just right?". No, I told him, why do you ask? "Well, I had one on my table while i was cleaning my Glock, and it rolled off and went off when it hit the floor, bullet went through the apartment wall and stopped in the hot water heater. Scared the bejezus outta me!". I asked him are you sure that's what happened? Rounds going off outside the chamber don't tend to send the bullet with much force because they weigh more than the casing, how could it have done that? "I don't know, it was weird man, are you sure it couldnt do that?" Yep, pretty darn sure especially on carpet. You sure you weren't just playing with your Glock and had a ND so now you're trying to come up with a good excuse for the maintenance man? "Uhhhhh..." Turns out that was exactly the case and finally got him to fess up to it. Same kid that had an ND in the bathroom sitting on the toilet playing with his Browning BDA that took the life of an innocent bathtub a few years before that. I wasnt upset to see him leave the fire department, I didn't like having to trust my life to a guy I couldn't trust not to lie about things to not look like an idiot.

[kevin c]

Not always the case.

I can not think of a single failure when pulling high primered 38s (no primer strike) out of my revolver and chambering it in my levergun.I stand corrected. My first hand experience and that of my friends with high primers is all in pistols with FP mechanisms designed for what I understand is the softer primer cup of small and large pistol primers. I've read that rifle primers have harder cups; maybe the rifle FP mechanisms have more striking force?

[Mica_Hiebert]

4 foot drop can set off a center fire Cartridge per industry testing.

[kevin c]

Any details on that testing, or where to find it? Might be interesting reading.

[Bazoo]

I was told by the folks at the local gun store that they had a 22LR roll off the counter and detonate. Couple years ago now.

[kevin c]

I was told by the folks at the local gun store that they had a 22LR roll off the counter and detonate. Couple years ago now. Maybe I need to reconsider tumbling those 22's...

[jeepvet]

Check out Demolition Ranch on you tube. Matt puts 22's in straws and throws them into the air so that they land on the pavement bullet up and they almost all go off. He does some really wild stuff. Fun to watch.

[Winger Ed.]

Check out Demolition Ranch on you tube. Matt puts 22's in straws and throws them into the air so that they land on the pavement bullet up and they almost all go off. He does some really wild stuff. Fun to watch.

I wish I'd thought of that.
It beats the heck out of shooting kitchen matches from air rifles to make them light off the concrete.

Sure, making them bounce into someone's lap as they lit, or starting grass fires was fun---
but that's nothing compared to doing dangerous stuff with live ammunition.


Boring out the end of a arrow for a .22 and shooting it with a decent size bow might make
a good 'Hold my beer and watch this' moment.

[Winger Ed.]

Maybe I need to reconsider tumbling those 22's...

Nah,,, Just do it outside in case a big rock accidently finds it's way into the drum.

[M-Tecs]

Check out Demolition Ranch on you tube. Matt puts 22's in straws and throws them into the air so that they land on the pavement bullet up and they almost all go off. He does some really wild stuff. Fun to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4FQgrU2fYk

[M-Tecs]

Different results here



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm5e7w7AnBs

[john.k]

I knew a guy had multiple fires of rounds......he used to use his press like it was a metal punching machine,every primer was flattened into the case.I watched him several times loading,he just had to force everything ,or it wasnt right,according to him.

[abunaitoo]

You might want to check the range out!
Be on the lookout for the Menehune.
Lots of strange things going on there.

There are spirits there.
Many of them all over the island.
Older people tell tales of Menehune's.

[Tom W.]

A few years ago I saw ads on TV for arrows that used .357 mag ( I think ) cartridges instead of broadheads.....

[Petander]

It has happened enough times,we allow no loose ammo on tables here where I live.

Private or military range,all ammo has to be in boxes at all times. This rule/practise came from enough fallen ,exploded rounds during military pistol training sessions.

[oldred]

Just my opinion but I would think the primer would not have to be dented and just a sharp blow could cause detonation of the primer from the shock. I seriously doubt that 12 ga shell that went off years ago at my feet hit the ground hard enough to dent the primer even with it landing in gravel, break open single shot ejecting the round backwards with barely enough force to completely clear the chamber. I had broken open the shotgun using my right thumb while holding the gun with my right hand intending to catch the round in my left as it ejected (a common way to unload a break action and I still do it that way today). I fumbled the catch and actually more like dropped the thing from barely above waist high but when it hit the ground it let loose!

[gbrown]

A few years ago I saw ads on TV for arrows that used .357 mag ( I think ) cartridges instead of broadheads.....

38 or 357 cases make good arrowheads for small game or target heads. Used them a bunch. Can't remember the weight vs. target heads, though.
Also, along with the thread, the design of the primer is that the firing pin contacts the cup and presses the chemical between cup and anvil. Takes a lot of force--think of all the firing pin springs you have cleaned, they are stout. I've dropped plenty of live rounds on concrete with no detonations. I've crunched plenty of primers, accidentally in my machines. I've taken plenty of live primers out of cases I've pulled bullets and powder out of to save. I've caught primers in my machines in all sorts of angles/positions and never had a detonation. Anything is possible in this world, I acknowledge that. I understand the laws of probability, but I would put it way past 1 in a billion. Not saying it couldn't happen, but kinda like being bitten by a shark, rattlesnake, hit by lightening, and visit by aliens at the exact same second.

[AllanD]

Other than de-priming unfired military cases with crimped-in primers I've never had a primer go off at the loading bench...

[nun2kute]

I would think ... with all the Hand gun ammo manufactured in the US by all of the Major Manufacturers, not to mention the Smaller Co.'s or the Local Start-ups ... then add all the Reloaders, that 1 in a Billion would be very conservative. Not including rifle Ammo. This is my first ever encounter. I'm kinda Skeptical about it.

[Tom W.]

38 or 357 cases make good arrowheads for small game or target heads. Used them a bunch. Can't remember the weight vs. target heads, though.
Also, along with the thread, the design of the primer is that the firing pin contacts the cup and presses the chemical between cup and anvil. Takes a lot of force--think of all the firing pin springs you have cleaned, they are stout. I've dropped plenty of live rounds on concrete with no detonations. I've crunched plenty of primers, accidentally in my machines. I've taken plenty of live primers out of cases I've pulled bullets and powder out of to save. I've caught primers in my machines in all sorts of angles/positions and never had a detonation. Anything is possible in this world, I acknowledge that. I understand the laws of probability, but I would put it way past 1 in a billion. Not saying it couldn't happen, but kinda like being bitten by a shark, rattlesnake, hit by lightening, and visit by aliens at the exact same second.


I've used the empty cases to shoot at squirrels before, but what I was referring to were live rounds to be shot at animals. Reminded me of a long range bangstick.

[JSnover]

That 20mm cannon round - sounds like it landed nose first on its contact fuze. Sad to hear of it.

I'd believe that. Spent 20MM cases don't have normal firing pin strikes on their primers, just a tiny pin prick because the M61 is electrically fired; current passes through the firing pin to the primer.
The primer consists of an open-ended brass cup that contains a brass button insulated from the cup by a plastic liner. The firing pin of the gun contacts this button. The ignition charge (a conductive explosive mixture) is in contact with the other side of the button, and is retained by a paper disk and a metal support cup. The electrically initiated primer ignites the propellant charge. The primer explosive element is sensitive to electromagnetic and electrostatic energy.
I suppose it could have been set off by static discharge.

[oldred]

Fellas skeptical or not and no matter what the "odds" it definitely can happen, I didn't just make up that incident about the 12 ga shell, call me and the others liars if you like but it DID happen just the way I described and if you don't want to believe it that's your problem but you are dead WRONG!

[abunaitoo]

I guess it's not as uncommon as I thought.
It's the first I've heard of it happening.
When we were young, we used to get a 12GA round.
Hot glue a cork, with a nail poked in it, so the point would hit the primer.
Hot glue some string or strip of cloth to the other end.
Throw it high in the air, and run.
Thinking back, it was not a very smart thing to do.
No one ever got hurt.
I'll have to try the straw .22.

[Winger Ed.]

I'll have to try the straw .22.

I'd bore out the end of an arrow, and put the .22 in there.

It should make a great 'hold my beer, and watch this' moment.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Any details on that testing, or where to find it? Might be interesting reading.

I wish I could provide that, I work for a large manufacturer and the testing was performed in house by our health & safety department engineers to establish a threshold of how far a loaded round can be dropped accidently and to implement things like load machine heights and to educate employees on the dangers of dropped rounds. In training the example given was a 45acp dropped at 4 feet can discharge.

[Leadmad]

I was going to a shoot and put a 1 gallon bucket with lid on full of shotshells on the tray of my pickup, grabbed something else and knocked the bucket onto the ground heard a bang and the lid came off , one of the primers must have hit an edge on another shell when the bucket bumped onto the ground, the case was split open and just lucky I guess some of the others didn't go off

[Lloyd Smale]

shouldn't say anything because I wasn't there but id bet a dime to a hundred bucks it was a cover up for an accidental discharge. Guy probably wasn't using a 700 rem so couldn't use that excuse. Don't know how many rounds ive dropped in my life but it has to be many hundreds and ive yet to have one go off. Had some that didn't even want to go off with a firing pin hit[smilie=l:

[Thumbcocker]

Some years back I had a ziplock bag of .45 colt loads in my loading area. I heard a bang and went to check. The bag had fallen to the floor and one cartridge rim had hit the primer of another round. That round had split the case and a piece of the case had hit the plastic bucket I used to water the dogs. The piece of case had penetrated the bucket. The primer had a crescent shaped indentation from the other case rim. I posted pics on this site showing the pieces of the case.

[nicholst55]

The Air Force Security Forces had a documented and well investigated incident when I was in the sandbox. An Airman dropped a carrying bag containing 800 rounds of linked 7.62mm NATO ammo, and one round fired. I don't recall if they ever determined whether the primer was struck by the tip of another round, or if it landed on something on the ground. At any rate, they had to begin carrying the ammo in the ammo cans which added a bunch of weight to the bag.

[abunaitoo]

Got a little more information on this.
It happened at the range.
Caliber was a 6.5 Creedmore. Factory ammo.
It rolled off the bench, under 3 feet.
No one got hurt. No damage to anything.

[dansedgli]

This happened at my club a about a month ago.

A guy ejected a 9mm round from his gun during unload and show clear. When it hit the ground it went off, it was loose gravel so the primer probably hit a stone.

The split open case ended up about 5 metres behind him, we couldn't find the projectile. No injuries or anything.

[cas]

That was discussed on the Enos forums too. I don't recall any of the reloaders there (and there are a lot) reporting a detonation from tumbling live rounds.


Lee Jurras told us every single round of Super Vel ammo sold was tumbled loaded. In cement mixers IIRC.

I've heard stories a couple times of empties or other objects landing in bu;k ammo cans and setting a round off.

[redriverhunter]

Now I am think of a way to drop a round and keep the primer down thought of a tube but could cause the bullet to get some go don't know have not tried it. I think myth buster is over but it would be a good one for them to try.