Ready to try this

[jonk]

Well... you've talked me into it.

I have a few milsurps in the 30 cal to 8mm range with rough bores. They shoot well with jacketed but I don't want to pay for them. They lead with straight cast and I thought I might try some paper patching.

I read the 101 link at the top of the page but that seems to cover paper selection more than technique.

So let's say I'm using an 1891 argentine Mauser, nominal bore diameter (measured) .315.

-What diameter parent bullet should I use? Let's assume I'm using the standard double wrapping and plain typing paper.
-What size should the patch be? Maybe some of you patching for .30 cal rifles could give me some measurements? Length of one side and depth would do I think.

My 1 or 2 attempts at this in the past ended with the patch ripping on seating, even when using an M die. Any tricks?

Thanks,

Jon

[docone31]

I would use the Lee C312-185R mold sized to .311.
Then I would try two wraps of notebook paper.
With that mold, I size it to .308 then two wraps of notebook paper gives me .317-.318.
I size down to .314 for my .303 British.
You might try sizing to .308, then just wrapping. Smear a little JPW on the patch. A little.
I have not had patch tearing on loading. I use the base of a drill bit and wobble it. I get a bit to just fit the neck on a fired case.
If you have the sizing dies, then I would try primary sizing to .311, then wrapping and sizing to .317.
I have loaded with tails on, perhaps trying it that way will eliminate patch tearing. Either that, or the die is too tight to the casting.
I cut my patch 1" high, then dry twist twice to find length. I cut at 90* and try it wet. From that point, I remove the patch and lay it out on a piece of paper. I then cut 45* on each end so the ends just touch wet. I also use a cigarette roller. I put the patch wet on the roller and roll one. It comes out damp like it is squeeged. I remove the rolling, twist the tail and let it dry, usually at least two days.
I then trim the tails and lube and size.
I also use water quenched wheel weight with tin.
My bore with chatter is now very smooth! I used a touch of lapping compound on 20 patches sized at .312. I need .314 for patched loads. My bore is .304.
Essentially, what works for me is +.002 over groove diameter. I have not hand wrapped any castings, I started with the machine, and have always used it. Makes a real tight wrap.
I use molds that have lube lands. I believe the sized lands help grip the patch. I do smooth the bases after sizing, althoug I use gas check molds without gas checks. I believe that transition helps on setting the casting in the case.

[jonk]

ah. So sizing AFTER putting the patch on, eh?

Didn't think of that. Thanks.

[docone31]

For the life of me, I had heard of sizing the patch. I couldn't visualize it. I just couldn't.
One day, after taking the word of some folks here, I gave it a shot.
I dabbed a little JPW on the patch, after cutting the tail. I left just a nub. I put the casting on the ram to push thru the sizer. Two more and one popped out. Perfectomondo! The nub of a tail was absolutely flat to the base, the patch was harder than it had been, no loose flaps, and nice and shiney.
Measured dead on. Went into the case nice also.
Yeppir, size the patch. Does a person good.

[jonk]

No jpw here but this might get me to buy some.

Coudl try a light smear of LLA as well.

[docone31]

I use Turtle Wax also.

[pdawg_shooter]

Any lube will work. Right now I am using BAC but I have used LLA, Seaco Gold, and once for fun I mixed lard and beeswax and it worked fine. A lot of people shoot them dry, but I think a little lube reduces bore wear.

[bcp477]

Everyone seems to have such great luck (I haven't, so far) with sizing the bullets, AFTER patching. Just for the fun of it, I'll have to give that a try sometime. As it is now, I have great luck with (first) sizing my 8mm bullets down to .314", THEN patching to approx. .3237". I could get the Lee .323" sizing die, start out with a bullet smaller than the one I use now....perhaps .312 or so, then patch to something like .324" to .326"....THEN size to .323". Of course, I'd have to buy another die (not expensive, though)....find bullets for sale at the right diameter (I don't cast my own and I am not in any position to do so)....and so forth. I'm not sure that it is worth the trouble, in my circumstance....given that what I am doing already works so well.

It would be interesting to see if that sort of strategy, in comparison to my current one, would be better. Hmmmm.

[rhead]

For the life of me, I had heard of sizing the patch. I couldn't visualize it. I just couldn't.

:-DI guess that that is the major difference between an artist and a scienctist. I cannot conieve of the need to visualize something that I can do and then look at and examine. ( sometimes followed by an "OH S**T" and throwing it back un the pot.) [smilie=1:

Experience is something you get just after you need it.

[docone31]

Here is my pipsqueak,
I use the C312-185/R for my .303 British. I size it to .308. My bore riding portion mics out at .304. My .30cal mold is supposed to mike at .301, it hasn't come yet.
Ok,
Sizing the lube lands to .308, then wrapping, to .317 with two wraps of notebook paper, then down sizing to .314, gives me a nose portion of .304, groove of .314. I use two wraps of notebook paper.
I was lucky, Beemer told me to size to .308, and try two wraps of Meade Acadieme Tracing Paper. I only got .312 unsized. Just enough to get 20ft groups at 100yds. I then tried three wraps of Meade, and got .3135. At least on the target board at 100yds.
So, from there, I tried two wraps of notebook paper. That gave me .317-.318. I size that down to .314.
I believe, the fat lube portion of the wrap, combined with the bore riding portion gives me a good fit.
That is how I found the fit for my Smelly.
With the 8mm, I would try the same approach. Get a mold that is a bore rider, then down size the lands to wrap them.
With my rifle, it did not conform to "normal" practice. No biggee, I just got another sizer die.
I use the Lee Push Thru System. With my paper patching, it is great. I have yet to have a patch reject sizing.
I really enjoy paper patching. I really do. I can get much better accuracy than I get with jacketed loads of the SAME powder charge.
Go figuire.
The trend towards copper jacketing went that way for convience, rather than effectiveness.
They could be mass produced, where paper still needed people to wrap them on an assembly line.
Time to go back to results!!!!

[jonk]

I'm evidentally still not getting something. I was with it up through cut at 45 degrees. If I double wrap, then cut the wrap at both ends at 45 degrees, I end up with a shorter patch that will no longer double wrap.

Seems to me either I don't have to double wrap at 90 degrees to start- it would be 2 1/2 wraps perhaps? or that I don't have to cut at 90.

Why cut at an angle, anyhow?

Thanks!

[bcp477]

Jonk,
The reason for TWO wraps is so that you will have a uniform paper thickness, all around the bullet. A non-uniform patch thickness will tend to reduce accuracy, as the finished bullet will have an offset center of gravity. The idea is two wraps, with the ends just meeting (the end where you start will be underneath the first wrap, the finishing end will just meet this location, without overlapping it). In order to have a uniform patch thickness, the number of wraps must be EVEN (two, four, six, eight, etc.). However, more than two wraps is not recommended - it just does not work well. As for the angled ends, this is not really necessary, from a technical point of view. I have patched both ways - square ends and angled at roughly 45 degrees. Some will claim that the only "correct" way is to angle the ends of the patch, but in my real-world experience, it doesn't matter, as long as the wrapping is consistent and uniform. If angling the ends of the patch, the angles must be equal, so no overlapping will result. Also, it is slightly easier to roll patches onto bullets with angled ends, because the narrow starting point for the patch is easier to line up correctly. As well, the narrow (angled) finishing point will tend to stay tight on the bullet a bit better than a square end, unless you seal your patch ends with something (I use a tiny line of yellow glue). However, if it works better for you to use square-end patches, then do so. As I said, all that really matters is that the patch be tight and uniform, all around the bullet.

[jonk]

Thanks BP. I"ll probably roll up 2 sets this weekend, 1 with 90 degree edges, 1 with 45; now whether I SHOOT them this weekend depends on weather. :(