30-30 Case Life Test.

[Bazoo]

I posed the question of "How many loadings to expect on full length sized 30-30 brass?" sometime back. The responses I received were anywhere from "not many" to the usual suggestion of "why full length size when neck sizing is better for brass life".

So I decided to do a little test. I took a once fired winchester case and loaded it until failure, keeping a record of each loading. I marked it's head with 4 file marks so I could easily distinguish it. I loaded it anytime I loaded a batch of 30-30, and sometimes loaded it singularly as well.

The case was full length sized after each firing, and then measured. From the first trimming until the case grew past the maximum length it wasn't trimmed. Then, it was trimmed to minimum length after each firing. Sometimes the trim length was short due to my inconsistent use of the trimmer or using the test casing to set the trimmer. I inside chamfered and outside deburred every time the case was trimmed. A roll crimp was used every loading. I did not anneal the case during this test.

The gun is my Winchester 94 30-30 made in 1970.

Tools used, Lyman FL sizing die set (a few times I used a CH FL sizing die but did not record which times), Lyman M die, lyman universal case trimmer. I used both a Lyman Spartan and a Lee hand press. For lube it was imperial sizing wax or Hornady one shot with no recorded distinction. RCBS calipers.

Cast bullets were all from air cooled, clip on wheel weights, sized .309 with Hornady gas checks. Lube was BAC on the Lyman 31141, LLA on the Lee 309-150-FN.

Times fired, powder & charge, bullet, length after sizing, trim to length.

1. Factory fired, trimmed to 2.029
2. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.029
3. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.032
4. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.032
5. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.035
6. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.036
7. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.0365
8. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.038
9. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.039
10. W748 29.0 gr, Lee 309-150-FN, 2.041, TTL 2.027
11. Misfired factory bullet & powder, 2.032, TTL 2.028
12. W748 34.0 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.027, no trim
13. W748 32.0 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.029, TTL 2.026
14. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.027, no trim
15. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.031, 2.029
16. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.032, 2.027
17. Unique 9.2 gr, Lee 309-150-fn no GC, 2.030, TTL no record
18. W748 32.5 gr, Lee 309-150-fn, 2.030, TTL 2.028
19. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.032, TTL 2.028
20. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.029, TTL 2.028
21. W748 32.5 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.029, TTL 2.027
22. IMR 3031 27.0 gr, Lyman 31141, 2.030, failure

That is a total of .040 trimmed off by my figuring, giving a value of .003 for number 17 which I forgot to record the trim length.

After load 22 was fired, I resized using a Lyman full length hand die. After sizing, inspection revealed a crack on the shoulder. I decided to size with the hand die as the base of the body just above the web was slightly bulged and beginning to chamber with a slight resistance. This was the only time using the hand die, and I wonder if it caused the crack prematurely. Probably not.

After each firing I carefully inspected the case for cracks and defects. I paper clip tested many times, and every time when I started getting up in firings. The primer pocket remains tight.

I started this test with the intent to record the number of times fired between trim to length and max length. It then turned into a longevity test. Obviously this isn't conclusive as it dealt with only one case of one manufacture. Not to mention the variables I introduced with varying trim lengths, size dies (mostly Lyman), presses used, and case lube used. It has been fun for me, and I've learned that full length sizing is not the 5-8 load brass killer I've heard, at least in my chamber with my dies, and my loading techniques.

Thanks for reading.

Bazoo

[725]

Now, that was interesting. Thanks

[ascast]

Nice test and report. My roller , original Spanish in 7mm will fail massively on the 3rd resize. They are known to have huge chambers.

[trapper9260]

That is a good test . It give a idea of what can happened for how you done the test.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks Bazoo for doing the testing of the 30-30 Win case. Very interesting. It might tell us something about the longevity of the Winchester brand cases. It also speaks to the chamber of your old Winchester 94 being pretty close to specifications I would think.

[Maine1]

hey, thats some great work, thank you!

I did a similar test with 308 in a FAL to determine when I should worry about a CHS.

[Blammer]

I think the IMR powder did it in... :)

[Texas by God]

The crack ain't on the neck. It'll go again[emoji16][emoji16]. All kidding aside, I believe your result because some of my cases are quite old, too. It's a kind cartridge.

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[rancher1913]

its info like this that really makes this a great forum.

[redhawk0]

Very good information, Bazoo. Thanx for taking the time do do it.

I wonder if it's repeatable. I don't shoot 30-30 enough to attempt a duplication of the data. A second test would really make this quantifiable.

redhawk

[Hick]

That fits with my experience as well. My newest 30-30 cases only have 16 reloads on them. The older cases more.

[richhodg66]

Thanks very much for posting this, I wouldn't have guessed a .30-30 case would last that long.

Kind of makes me wonder how much longer it would last with neck sizing, lighter loads and occasional annealing.

[barrabruce]

Good work keep it up.

I just tightened up the primer hole on a couple of 30-30 cases I’ve "used" quite a bit.
But they have only been partially sized twice I think but neck trimmed 3 or 4 times.

These are my babied and much loved paper patched cases.
Ohh yeah I’ve cleaned the insides out a couple of times as well.
It seems doing nothing extends the life more if your bullets are a thumb seat in your cases.

I’d be inclined to try a partially sized case so it just chambers easily and compare it with the original test.

Good work keep it up.

[Butler Ford]

I did something similar a couple of months ago. I had post this on another forum so there are a couple of sentences that make no sense with out the comments between.;


Starting with 3 pieces of Winchester 30-30 brass that has been fired once previously. Using XMP5744 from a Lee 1.3cc dipper (17.3g) (just under starting load for 190 grain cast bullet), Remington 9 1/2 primers and cast 180 grain bullets gas checked that weighed 187gr after size and lube, sized .309, lubed with Ben's Red and a coat of BLL tumble lubed. Dies used were RCBS Cowboy dies with just enough flair to start the bullet and crimped to the case being just flush with the first band.
I started to think that the test wasn't going to last long when the first neck split at the sixth loading. The two remaining cases were annealed after the 11th reloading. I was beginning to think that they might be indestructable but after the 20th firing both of the remaining cases had hairline cracks at the mouth. Neither case showed signs of stretching and the web of both were still a smooth transition to the wall of the brass.
As a matter of curiosity, I trimmed both to beyond the crack. The shortest of the two measures 2.015", 0.014" shorter than the 2.029 trim length. Both still useable if you were in a bind though probably not the best for accuracy but still well over one calibre for seating depth.
It did make for a fun and interesting day.

[There was a bit of discussion about not crimping maybe making them last even longer, the next 2 tests were done without crimping}


30-30 Case life part 2
Well, after removing my head from the dark recesses of my body, I realized that I don't crimp for the A3, and as noted, already had a baseline for the 30-30. Single loading 3 rounds at a time should be no chore so I started with 3 more pieces from the same bag of once fired.
All were cleaned and sized using the same RCBS Cowboy dies, length checked with a Lee trim tool, lightly chamfered with a VLD reamer, same load of XMP5744, Remington 9 1/2 primers and gas checked RCBS 180 gr flat nose bullets.
On the 8th load, they started to shave a bit of lead so prior to the 9th, they were lightly reamed again. After the 11th, they were annealed, just as the previous 3. After the 20th, they were checked again with the Lee trim die and it touched two of them lightly, all were chamfered again. At the 29th 2 of them started shaving lead again so were trimmed and chamfered again. Just to break the monotony, I set up the chrony on the 30th, 1653, 1656 and 1661, extreme spread of 8fps if my arithmetic is correct. Kind'a pleased with that.
on the 35th load, 2 of the cases split. I sure didn't get 150 loads out of them but 35 is nothing to laugh about.

30-30 Case life part 3
3 more cases from the same bag of once fired Winchester brass. Same primer, powder, load and bullet. The change this time was that they were sized with a full length RCBS size die and trimmed when case length started encroaching on the first band. Some of the results were expected, they were trimmed much more frequently, a total of nine times. Some results were a surprise, the first case neck split on the 45th firing!
I have an hypothesis; with the Cowboy dies, the sizing is done in two steps, first the neck is sized undersize then the expanding mandrel enlarges them to a greater diameter for the loading of lead bullets than the button in the standard resizing die sizes for jacketed bullets. So I pulled them both and measured, standard button is 0.3055" and the Cowboy mandrel is 0.3070". My belief is that the working the diameter of the brass causes greater weakening than stretching the length with the standard die button.
I'd like to prove or disprove that sometime in the future.

[barrabruce]

With partial neck sizing and annealing every 5 or so shots With reduced loads I got 50+
After that the chance of me dropping the case onto a cement floor and dining up up exponentially increases.
I have made a 100 out of a few stubborn cases.
This is loading one case at the bench and shooting it as fixed ammo.
A partial size and trim will be needed.
Shooting with a breachseated bullet they last as long as you don’t drop them it seems or the primer pocket gives out.

Yes my gun shoot better with one only case.
It could have been the slower controlled pace keeping the barrell at an even temp thou/
They do fit perfectly after a while.

[GhostHawk]

Well done OP, great post and an interesting read. At that rate I don't need to worry about running out of dirty thirty brass anytime soon. :)

[jaysouth]

I think the IMR powder did it in... :)

musta been global warming.

[Bazoo]

Thanks everyone for the kind words and replies.

I know that if you want a case to last longer, you'll limit the amount its sized, anneal the neck, and use light loads. When I was doing my research on how long a 30-30 case would last, I found lots of info with those as the parameters. However, I found nothing that indicated how many loading I could reasonably expect for a case that was full length sized and used with full power loads.

For my testing, the variation in the loading was the result of me including the test case in whichever batch I was loading at the time.

Im sure I could have gotten more loadings if I'd annealed the case, but I was curious to get a base for what to expect without annealing. The amount trimmed off is a concern for me, as that material is flowing from the case web most likely. I edited the original post to show the total amount trimmed off, .040.

That brings me to another facet of the test, how much can I trim off before I need to worry about the brass thinning and incipient case head separation. Of course that would depend on the thickness of the brass, which will vary from lot to lot and manufacturer. The lyman manual in a round about way suggests that .060 is the safe cut off spot.

[barrabruce]

Forgot to mention.
When I sized it is with a Lee wack’em die that has been honed out a bit so there is minimal sizing.
Polishing the brass neck with steel wool or kitchen washing scratchy pads after a while and it won’t size enough.
Such is life.

If you had new brass and seated the bullets into the lands to fireform.
They usually come out pretty round around the Webb.
When you see the web line come pronounced and sharp over the scrape marks on the case is time to start getting worried as far as I can tell.
Changing from full snot pressures and backing of to starting load will increase the life heaps.
Mouse fart and 1600 fps loads usually long time.
Why do you need to work your brass hard by full length sizing any way?

[Bazoo]

barrabruce, thanks for that tidbit. I do use those scotchbrite pads and fine steel wool sometimes. I thought that it might wear some on the brass, but I never would have thought it would thin it that much.

[barrabruce]

My cases are 309-310" when I size them and expand them with a 311 or 312 mandrel if necessary.
Not jacketed 305-307" inside neckstuff.
Thank the Benchrest one hole shooters on how to make your brass last.

[Bazoo]

I cant remember what my M die measures. I'll have to measure next time I take it apart to clean.

[Bazoo]

I have Winchester and Federal cases, as well as small amounts of Remington and PPU once fired cases. For the next test, I am thinking 3 of each, full length sizing, no annealing, full power loads.

Thinking of doing some accuracy tests as well with them. Maybe not every singe loading, but often enough to see any accuracy deviation. That would allow me to use whatever I happen to be loading at the time, but still have a standard load for the accuracy testing.

Anyone got any ideas?

[trapper9260]

I think for what you like to do for your next test will be interesting to see what the out come will be, since it is going to be different make of cases .

[Butler Ford]

I have Winchester and Federal cases, as well as small amounts of Remington and PPU once fired cases. For the next test, I am thinking 3 of each, full length sizing, no annealing, full power loads.

Thinking of doing some accuracy tests as well with them. Maybe not every singe loading, but often enough to see any accuracy deviation. That would allow me to use whatever I happen to be loading at the time, but still have a standard load for the accuracy testing.

Anyone got any ideas?

Looking forward to the results of this one!


I still have an unopened bag of Hornady brass. I'd be happy to send you a few if you'd like to include them in your test.

BF

[dg31872]

This is very interesting. I thank Bazoo for taking the time to do the research and sharing it with us.
I am curious about the effect of the RCBS X-dies on case life.
Other than not having to trim the brass, what does it do?
If the brass does not thin, would the case last longer?

[waksupi]

I recall P.O. Ackley doing testing like this. I don't recall if he was full length sizing, or neck sizing. He was getting 50+ loadings before he started to see problems.

[Texas by God]

I don't think my 22-250 or 25-06 need apply. Ten reloads are good for these IME. But they run a LITTLE hotter.....

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[Petrol & Powder]

That's useful information.

To the OP - THANK YOU !

[toallmy]

I have a couple hundred I have been trying to wear out with a light charge of unique , but it seems it's going to take a while .

[Bazoo]

This is very interesting. I thank Bazoo for taking the time to do the research and sharing it with us.
I am curious about the effect of the RCBS X-dies on case life.
Other than not having to trim the brass, what does it do?
If the brass does not thin, would the case last longer?

I wonder this myself. I don't have x dies, maybe someone that does can elaborate. The benefit of the case not continually lengthening would have to extend case life if they were annealed. I wonder how the x die would benefit someone loading for a gun with a loose chamber?

[Bazoo]

Waksupi, I don't have a copy of Ackleys work, but It's on my to get list.

TbG, thanks for sharing. The 22-250 and 25-06 both are at 55k cup, while the 30-30 is only 38k cup. I don't know what pressure my loads are at, but the w748 32.5 grain loads duplicate factory ammo recoil feel and trajectory. I don't have a chrono yet to measure velocity.

I plan to do some testing of a similar fashion when I get into loading for my 30-06. It runs 50k cup, and I'm thinking of a test on brass life between 30-30 pressure levels and 06 levels.

[Bazoo]

I have a couple hundred I have been trying to wear out with a light charge of unique , but it seems it's going to take a while .

Are you annealing your cases? Light loads are a lot easier on brass than full power loads that's for sure.

[35remington]

Did you measure if any shoulder movement is occurring on sizing or did you just crank ‘er down to touch the shell holder plus a bit and call it good?

On another forum we went to some length in discovering that a guy who thought he was full length sizing was not, even with the die adjusted maximally. This with a 30-30.

Case life has a lot to do with the compatibility of case fit to chamber. If it isn’t good case life is poor.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the comment 35 Remington.

I adjusted the dies to bottom out plus some. I don't have a comparator to measure the shoulder setback. I have however compared fired cases to resized cases visually and with calipers and they are being set back some. Obviously I can't get a quantitive measurement that way and I didn't record any. I don't have a cartridge check gage either, but I do want one.

I do get lube dents on the shoulder if I ain't careful, so that is an indicator I am setting back the shoulder at least some.

I've fired my reloads in a friends marlin 336, and they chambered without problem.

[Tom W.]

All of my 30/30 brass is old. Some are loaded with regular book loads back when it was just a regular 30/30, but since I had it re-chambered about 100 rounds or so are specifically loaded as fire- forming loads. Sometimes I get splits at the shoulder, but most of the fired rounds come out fine. Nothing was annealed because at the time it was all once or twice fired. I will say that I didn't have any bad brass before it was re-chambered.

[toallmy]

Are you annealing your cases? Light loads are a lot easier on brass than full power loads that's for sure.

No I haven't , at least not yet . As soon as I notice the brass starting to harden ' when pulling the expander ball out of the resized case ' I will .
Thank you for taking the time writing up this post .

[trapper9260]

Thanks for the comment 35 Remington.

I adjusted the dies to bottom out plus some. I don't have a comparator to measure the shoulder setback. I have however compared fired cases to resized cases visually and with calipers and they are being set back some. Obviously I can't get a quantitive measurement that way and I didn't record any. I don't have a cartridge check gage either, but I do want one.

I do get lube dents on the shoulder if I ain't careful, so that is an indicator I am setting back the shoulder at least some.

I've fired my reloads in a friends marlin 336, and they chambered without problem.

Just to state that for lube dents is from too much lube ,I get some once in awhile also when do bottle neck. Cut back on the lube in that area. then you will find you will not have that after .Just to give you a idea on it . Hope it will help also.

[35remington]

Great differences in case life occur when cases are sized too much versus just enough. Two guys adjusting different dies for different rifles may get different results, so it is important to point out the results you get, unless you measure shoulder setback, may and likely can be very different than the results someone else gets.

The aforementioned guy that thought he was full length sizing was about 0.010” short of touching the shoulder. This was really closer to neck sizing.

It helps to measure to explain the results you are getting. Less shoulder setback may improve case life even more, depending upon just how your cases fail when they do fail.

[popper]

Range PU, factory Hornady, toss them when they split. Anneal when I feel bored. FL sized for levergun, lee dies. No clue as to how many reloads, but probably 10 avg. Unique cast loads to factory FTX loads.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies.

35remington, I know that less sizing will result in longer case life, all else being equal. I think I have a tight chamber and gun, and that will certainly produce different results than someone with a loose chamber and using minimum dies.

I've been thinking on how I can measure the shoulder. Im going to try using a socket to index on the shoulder and see if I can get a repeatable measurement. If it works it won't be as good as a store bought comparator but it will offer a close idea .

Trapper, I know lube dents result from too much lube on the shoulder or right below it. I get small dents with Hornady one shot. I mention it as evidence that my dies are indeed moving the shoulder some.

[Bazoo]

Thanks longpoint, it didn't occur to me to use an empty casing. I'll try that and see if it's consistent.

[trapper9260]

Thanks for the replies.

35remington, I know that less sizing will result in longer case life, all else being equal. I think I have a tight chamber and gun, and that will certainly produce different results than someone with a loose chamber and using minimum dies.

I've been thinking on how I can measure the shoulder. Im going to try using a socket to index on the shoulder and see if I can get a repeatable measurement. If it works it won't be as good as a store bought comparator but it will offer a close idea .

Trapper, I know lube dents result from too much lube on the shoulder or right below it. I get small dents with Hornady one shot. I mention it as evidence that my dies are indeed moving the shoulder some.

I was not sure you know about the over lube. I use Hornady Unique for my case lube .

[Bazoo]

Thanks trapper,

I've not tried the unique lube yet. I've been using imperial or Hornady one shot. The one shot though, because you spray it one gets on the shoulder. I don't scrimp on it, and it'll make little dents. It's a lot faster than the imperial, but I like the imperial better.

[Bazoo]

Using a 357 magnum case as a comparitor, my die is moving the shoulder back .039. I still have some ammo that was loaded back when I did this test, and the test case was probably loaded in that batch even. That older loaded ammo, and a newly sized case both measure the same .039 of setback from a fire formed case. I checked to make certain that the shell holder was indeed bottomig out when sizing as I have some spring in my press, And it was.

That is a lot of case shoulder movement!

[MT Gianni]

I wonder about using RCBS X dies. I have never trimmed 30-30 cases since going to them.

[higgins]

I have some old Winchester cases that were factory loaded with nickel primers that have been loaded 16 times with light cast bullet loads, FL sized every time they were reloaded. I believe the old brass was better quality; it has a different color tint than the very shiny new Winchester.

[Bazoo]

I'm lookin to investigate the X dies at some point myself. I don't understand how it can stop case stretch because I was under the impression the majority of case stretch came from headspace. Do the x dies size to standard dimensions or do you set it to minimum for your chamber to stop case stretch?

[dtknowles]

My understanding that pulling an expander button thru the neck of a case can cause it to stretch. I guess I could test the pretty easily if I was not so lazy. I don't see how neck sizing would increase case life if the failure is a crack in the neck unless you use an bushing neck die and don't expand the neck after sizing.

Tim

[Bazoo]

I have measured both standard neck expanded brass and non expanded but sized brass from the same die and both were stretched. Maybe the brass used with an expander button was some longer, but at the time I didn't think it was much different.

I also have measured the difference between a standard expander button and a carbide button, though in different dies. I don't see any difference in lengthening between the two.

I'm moving my 30-30 loading away from neck expanded to all outside sized and M die expanded. It has nothing to do with case stretch. It's partly because of the increased ease of loading, since I use an M die all the time even with jacketed bullets. It's also because pulling the neck expander out of the case also pulls some soot which ends up scratching the next piece of brass and eventually the die.

That latter issue would be cured if I wet tumbled, but I don't currently, not counting the fact that I don't always clean my brass between loadings.

[MT Gianni]

I'm lookin to investigate the X dies at some point myself. I don't understand how it can stop case stretch because I was under the impression the majority of case stretch came from headspace. Do the x dies size to standard dimensions or do you set it to minimum for your chamber to stop case stretch?

You set the dies to reach the shell holder as in normal dies.

[charlie b]

Interesting results, but I guess I am not surprised much. Like others said, the fit from chamber to sizing die is the most important. The better the two are matched, the less the brass is worked.

I am on 16 reloads with my .308 brass. BUT...it is almost all cast bullet loads. I neck size using the Lee collet die. Only because I am lazy. No need for case lube. After the 10th reload I full length sized and trimmed all of them. About half were not touched by the trim cutter. Then went back to neck sizing. Still going. After the 10th reload I also cut a case lengthwise. Could not see any stretch in any portion of the case. Given the low pressures I expect the primer pockets to 'last' forever. And I do not anneal my cases.

Good luck with the .30-30's.

[yeahbub]

I load .30-30 toward book max and lube the cases to allow them to flow back against the bolt face without stretching at the web. Being a rear-locking action, the shoulder moves forward, and while they can be rechambered, it is with some resistance, so I set the shoulder back .001-.002" every time. With lubing the cases, they do lengthen over time, but much more slowly than when shooting them dry. My expectation is that at some point the working/re-positioning of the shoulder will require either annealing or they will crack. They haven't yet, but I haven't kept a count of how often they've been loaded.

[1hole]

I haven't reloaded for .30-30 since I got my beloved 336/.35 in the late 70s but both are spec'ed to the same modest pressure. I've never been one to swallow "conventional wisdom" without checking with my own tests. Experts say that "lever guns should be FL sized with each loading" but I tried neck sizing first. Understand that I dearly love my 336 but it's an early season deep woods hunting rifle so it's not something I shoot very often (I do my gun practice with a 39A/.22RF). That said, I soon got a hundred Remington cases from Midway and immediately started shooting and neck sizing with a Lee collet die.

I've lost track of how many times those cases have been reloaded with 200 gr Remington and Hornady RN bullets chronographed to 2,050 fps over a full charge of IMR 4064; something on the order of 15 times I'd guess. I've lost maybe a couple dozen cases for various reasons but I'm still living with the originals.

I found they they don't stretch much, they still shoot into 1 1/2 (or less) moa and they still feed and camber easily. No deer shot with it has needed a second set of in-and-out holes.

Meaning, try starting with the standard "trim to length" (10 thou less than max). And try neck sizing until you actually need to FL size or trim again, if ever.

[Bazoo]

I haven't forgotten about this test or this thread. I'm planning to do an expanded test using the cases Mr Butler Ford sent me, as well as at least one other brand. I plan to both, shoot for accuracy, and test case life. Currently I'm thinking to set up on the range and load and fire all day, making the necessary recordings. It will be an interesting test when it comes to fruition.

[dverna]

Thanks for bumping this up. Interesting stuff.

[Digital Dan]

Good stuff this is. Never considered doing such evaluations, but there are some good points made. Haven't purchased any new brass since 2015, that being a 250 case batch of Star Line .357 Mag. They were used for a wildcat I dubbed the .30 Sneezer. In the process of forming the cases I lost two. Sorted into 50 round boxes I used but one for load development which involved two cast bullets and 10 different powders. To be clear, all loads were intended to be subsonic. I have fired more than 1,000 rounds with the combo using the first 48 cases. Cleaned with each firing, annealed after two firings and still have all the brass I started with.

My other venture with frequently reloaded brass involved the .30-30, fired from a M94 Winchester and a T/C Contender Carbine. The brass was, in each case, assigned to a particular gun due to slight difference in case length. Brass was last purchased O/A the year 2000 and included WW, R-P and Hornady brands. Have no idea how many times any of the brass has been reloaded, but only 300 of my ~800 pieces of brass have been fired. I did not begin annealing until around 2012, nor did I shoot cast bullets until about 2017. I used Lee collet dies for the Contender and RCBS dies for the levermatic. Never have I lost a case due to a split neck. I rolled crimped for the M94, no crimp for the Contender. YMMV...

[dverna]

Just wanted to add that many moons ago, Larry Gibson did a test using the RCBS X-dies and that prompted me to get a set. IIRC he tested .308 cases. My searching talents are one of many talents that are lacking and cannot find the post. But case life was excellent.

My planned testing never materialized but I might get to it this year.

[popper]

If you had annealed to the shoulder, they would have lasted longer. Problem you missed. The chamber and the sizer die are NOT the same at the shoulder. Shoulder gets sized, then blown out to another shape. Smoke or color the shoulder of a sized case, cycle through the rifle. You'll see where the chamber hits.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Long ago I kept track of loading life of 30-30's in a Marlin 336, I was well over 20 when I stopped counting. The low pressure of the 30-30 along with the rim allows the case to survive. Rimless cases can get shortened by the firing pin blow, and/or stretched by the pressure, so are more difficult to work with. Careful sizing and mild pressures can make a big difference for any case life, but the 30-30 and 32 Special, 45-70, 38-55 with their rims and mild pressures just hold up better than most.

[M-Tecs]

Using a 357 magnum case as a comparitor, my die is moving the shoulder back .039. I still have some ammo that was loaded back when I did this test, and the test case was probably loaded in that batch even. That older loaded ammo, and a newly sized case both measure the same .039 of setback from a fire formed case. I checked to make certain that the shell holder was indeed bottomig out when sizing as I have some spring in my press, And it was.

That is a lot of case shoulder movement!

Thats about .035" too much. On bolt guns I do .001" to .003". On leverguns or semi-auto's .004" is max for me.

[Wilderness]

Bazoo - I too have played around with .30-30 lengthening and case life. Rather than single cases, I have measured batches of cases, anything from a dozen or so to 200.

I have noticed with single cases that lengthening is uneven - maybe nothing on one shot and .010" on another, then nothing again .... hence working with batches. Brass is Winchester and Remington.

Both my .30-30s have long chamber necks - Savage 1899 has about 2.120" and Marlin 336A Rippletop has 2.150". Cases which start at about 2.025" will show incipient separation generally between 2.060" and 2.070" - well short of chamber length.

The Savage has quite a bit of excess headspace, so the first shot (full power) with new cases is with a circlip beneath the rim to ensure the shoulder blows out without stretching the case. There are other methods (e.g. expand up to .375" and size back down again), but the circlip has proved the most satisfactory. Some cases may require 2 or 3 applications of the circlip. I measure shoulder position with an unused .354" bullet sizing die and a vernier - cartridge or case nose first into the back end of the die, then measure OAL of case and die with vernier.

I use a Lyman FLS die adjusted so that there is a slight nip as I close the action on a sized case. With that die, the case holder is .025" clear of the bottom of the die. I do not crimp.

With full power jacketed or equivalent cast loads I get average case stretch of .003" to .005" per shot, corresponding to about 10 shots average out of a case.

My Marlin 336A, which does not have a headspace problem, but for which I load the same way, does about the same with full power loads. Its main use however is for LAS. For the first three targets I use subsonic loads, and for the Rams I use cast 175-185 gn bullets at about 1900 fps. The Ram loads stretch cases less than .001", and the lighter loads less again. With a mix of loads, a batch of 200 Remington cases has on average stretched .006" total in 13 shots (.0005" per shot). These cases will die of something other than web stretch.

In my case, the key to getting brass to last longer has been to get the headspace on to the shoulder without stretching the case in the process.



PS The circlips are made of brass or copper wire, e.g. out of electric motors. Leave a gap for the extractor. Excess HS of say .025" will need wire thicker than .025" due to bevel on chamber. If circlips are too thick they can be flattened slightly to fit. Cases with circlips are best single loaded to ensure extractor finds the gap.

[popper]

get the headspace on to the shoulder without stretching the case in the process.
Yup. Barely touch the shoulder, sizing, shot em till they break, then toss them.