Lee 459-500-3r data

[Thundermaker]

I'm about to start playing with my 45/70 pedersoli sharps with the goal of making a 1 mile shot on a 24" square target. I've decided that, since the mold is so cheap, I'll try out the lee 459-500-3r. It is one of few molds with a published B.C
that I can plug into my calculator.

It seems that this projectile is somewhat controversial. Opinions and anecdotes vary from "It won't stablize past 300 yards" to "It works great for me out to 1000" and everything in between.

I've been watching Mag30th's videos, in which he tests this bullet for stability at 1500 yards. Wind got up to 60mph. All the recovered bullets appeared to have hit nose first. What's even more intriguing is the fact that he was firing them from a muzzleloader at subsonic velocity.

So, why all the variance in results? Being very much a left brain kind of guy, I would like to approach this scientifically.

I ask members here who have experience, good or bad, with this bullet at long range to post any data they have. What was your load proceedure, powder charge, what alloy did you use, what bullet lube, what muzzle velocity? What kind of accuracy did you get?

I want to see if I can find a common denominator among successes that is not present in the failed experiments. Any help is appreciated.

[Kraschenbirn]

Haven't shot that Lee boolit past 300M (longest distance locally available) but achieved good accuracy/consistency (~6" off the bench) with both smokeless and BP out to that distance. My mold drops .460-.461 from 30-1 alloy and I run those through a .460 NOE push-thru sized before pan-lubing with Emmert's. Rifle was a Pedersoli RB with 1-18 twist and Lee Shaver sights.

Smokeless load was 29.5 gr AA2015 with a 1/2"x1/2" tuft of dacron quilt batting fill over a W-W LR primer. Never bothered with chrono, because load showed no significant improvement over 450 grainers at the same distance.

BP load was 65 gr. Goex FFg with a .030 fiber wad topped with a newsprint wad, loaded in Starline brass with CCI LRM primers. Boolits finger seated in unsized cases to barely touch rifling (no crimp). 300M accuracy approximately same as the smokeless load so didn't chrono these, either.

Just cast a short run of these last week to see how they shoot in my Uberti Highwall but haven't gotten around to loading any yet.

Bill

[Chill Wills]

I'm about to start playing with my 45/70 pedersoli sharps with the goal of making a 1 mile shot on a 24" square target. I've decided that, since the mold is so cheap, I'll try out the lee 459-500-3r. It is one of few molds with a published B.C
that I can plug into my calculator.

It seems that this projectile is somewhat controversial. Opinions and anecdotes vary from "It won't stablize past 300 yards" to "It works great for me out to 1000" and everything in between.

I've been watching Mag30th's videos, in which he tests this bullet for stability at 1500 yards. Wind got up to 60mph. All the recovered bullets appeared to have hit nose first. What's even more intriguing is the fact that he was firing them from a muzzleloader at subsonic velocity.

So, why all the variance in results? Being very much a left brain kind of guy, I would like to approach.

I ask members here who have experience, good or bad, with this bullet at long range to post any data they have. What was your load proceedure, powder charge, what alloy did you use, what bullet lube, what muzzle velocity? What kind of accuracy did you get?

I want to see if I can find a common denominator among successes that is not present in the failed experiments. Any help is appreciated.
I'm about to start playing with my 45/70 pedersoli sharps with the goal of making a 1 mile shot on a 24" square target. I've decided that, since the mold is so cheap, I'll try out the lee 459-500-3r.
The mold is the cheapest part of any load development. That alone would not cause me to spend good time and money on it.
It is one of few molds with a published B.C that I can plug into my calculator.
Okay - Stated Bc and the calculator may be interesting late nights before bed. Bc is dynamic and I find the Bc book value offered incidental to what really happens.

I have shot the bullet and have the mold when it first came on the market. I found it troublesome enough to not pursue more than a few hundred shots. I think LEE missed the boat here by designing what someone at LEE thought a bullet should like and if upfront they would have saute help from good (read experienced ) mid-range and creedmoor competitors, a better bullet would have been offered.

I would say your best bet would be put the time in becoming the best BPCR LR rifleman you can and then try to sort out the poor design of the LEE 500gr 45.
If you choose to jump right in with this using the LEE as your first bullet, please document your experiences here as you go.

All the best,

[Gunlaker]

If you just want to learn about that bullet then you'll be happy. But if you really want to shoot at extreme long range I'd look at what others are doing with success. I've never used that bullet, but also have never ever seen it used in a match. Long range shooters have pretty much settled on a couple of designs which work pretty well. I'd go that way, unless your goal really is just to see what you can do with that particular bullet.

Like Chill says, the mold is the cheap part. Unless you buy too many of the wrong ones, which some of us, have definitely done :-) :-).

I am sort of a nerd. Well maybe not sort of. I have my own ballistics software which I wrote that lets me play with all kinds of stuff, like the shape of the drag curve for instance. So I completely understand the idea. I think you'll find that published G1 drag curves for these bullets will start to get unreliable past 800 yards or so.

However, if you use a 535-540gr Money or elliptical (prolate) type of .45 cal bullet, your G1 BC will generally be right around 0.5.

The reason that the BC changes on these bullets is just that the G1 drag curve doesn't match our bullets 100%. We generally have less drag than a G1 form factor bullet as the speed gets lower. Actually I don't think any real bullets match the various general drag curves. That's why a lot of the software out there asks for the exact bullet you are using so it can use a custom curve.

Chris.

[MT Chambers]

I think you will need a heavier and longer bullet from a quality mold maker, the only molds from production makers is the Lyman 535 postell or Saeco's 530 grain boolit, Baco will have a good selection of bullets/molds.

[indian joe]

I went for that mold because it hauls enough lube to shoot a string without cleaning (I had a barrel that was a problem with leading) - first thing I did was wound my sight setting back about a full hundred yards compared to a blunt nose bore rider I had used before it so for my money the BC part works
I have shot couple of times at 700 yards but our ranges have shortened up and 500 meters sillywet is now the longest shot.
Did some shooting at 500 and was happy with it - but I have a dumb habit of picking nice conditions (read calm days) for my practice - I shot the LEE 500 three years ago in a 500yard match and did ok quite happy with my score for a first time out after a long layoff - returned same place the following year - had sighted in two days before at home - shot all over the place ??! - I started to re examine what the experts here had been saying about it and then went out and shot in the wind - ooooops ! -- At four hundred yards the boolits were stable and the group not too bad - 500 yards I had a group that still would not have scored too bad but most were full profile sideways through the target board - this with a 20 twist Uberti 1876 that I had going pretty good - that pattern says to me they are loosing it somewhere out close to the 500 - otherwise they wouldnt even hit the board ?? AND its the wind that does it - on a calm day the 500 yard targets are good and the boolit still stable - my sharps (an old IAB) performs similar with the same boolit - maybe a faster twist would make it better - I persisted with that LEE boolit because of the lube capacity - you can shoot a string of 15 or so without fouling out - and at 100 to 300 its been as good as anything else I tried and way less trouble
Working now with a CBE 535 (which is a close copy of the Lyman postell) but back in the groove with just not quite enough lube to do the job

[Don McDowell]

Some folks have trouble figuring out that a bullet can loose stability and still land point first but not comprehend the loss of stability is why 1 shot lands way above the target the next low the next left or right etc...

Also enderstand that hitting a 24 inch target at 1000 yds will take a load capable of producing a 2 moa group at that distance. I don’t even want to try to figure the moa required to hit 24 inch target at 1 mile...
Do you know anybody capapable of doping the wind and mirage at that distance? If you do then good luck finding a capable load... But it’s highly doubtful you’ll be able to make that lee bullet achieve a 2 moa load at Any distance beyond 600.
BtW do the accuracy testing on a real target that actual bullet strikes can be evaulated and group size measured and not surmised by wild eyed spectators judging thru cheap spotting scopes at splashes of dirt

[john.k]

Lee didnt miss any boats....cause I reckon they have sold a ship load of these moulds.......The point appeals to the beginner who is likely to buy a $20 mould ,and sales is all that matters....Most of these guys cant hit a 24x24 target offhand at 50 yards with a 45/70......but that doesnt worry them.....cause everyone can see the sexy bullets in their cases.

[rfd]

if yer interested in hitting stuff on a regular basis, particularly at 200 yards and lots further down the road, start with a known good bullet design/mould ... and for sure that ain't the lee 459-500-3r. it may look cool, but looks don't mean consistent accuracy. been there eons ago and learnt the hard way that bullet was a waste of time and money.

[Thundermaker]

It's times like this that I'm reminded how fortunate I was that my introduction to the shooting sports was a pleasant experience. I have to wonder how many people never went to their second match because of the reception they got from other shooters. There was a time when the shooting sports were neck and neck with baseball as America's passtime. Now they're on their last legs. They'll probably be gone within the next 20 years. I guess I'll just enjoy them while they last.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to gather data. Data means numbers. There are plenty of other threads in which to be arrogant and condescending.

Thank you to those who have shared their experiences thus far.

By the way, Mr. McDowell, 24" is roughly 1.3 MOA at 1 mile. It was quite easy to "figure".

[Don McDowell]

Well good luck finding data on a bullet very few have ever used with any success
Think you may want to refigure the moa at a mile thing.

[Gunlaker]

Well have fun collecting that data. It's a tough thing to shoot any bullet accurately at that distance I'm sure. I have never shot past 1000 yards and I find that pretty challenging :-). It's not so hard if conditions are constant and you have a good load, but with variable winds it's one of the most humbling experiences I know of, and that's a 44" bull.

To me, shooting these rifles at distance is like pulling on a one armed bandit. You never quite get what you want, but maybe you will if you try just one more time :-)

Chris.

[indian joe]

Well good luck finding data on a bullet very few have ever used with any success
Think you may want to refigure the moa at a mile thing.

24 inches at a mile is 1.302 MOA if yo find the need to be picky

[EDG]

Jajaja

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;4648480]Some folks have trouble figuring out that a bullet can loose stability and still land point first but not comprehend the loss of stability is why 1 shot lands way above the target the next low the next left or right etc...

Also enderstand that hitting a 24 inch target at 1000 yds will take a load capable of producing a 2 moa group at that distance. I don’t even want to try to figure the moa required to hit 24 inch target at 1 mile...
Do you know anybody capapable of doping the wind and mirage at that distance? If you do then good luck finding a capable load... But it’s highly doubtful you’ll be able to make that lee bullet achieve a 2 moa load at Any distance beyond 600.

I have to agree (reluctantly) with Dons sum up of this boolit

28 inches is 2MOA at 700 yards -- on a dead calm day with everything right out of an 18 twist that boolit will do it
come back on a windy day and its all gone to hell - lucky to get a good target at 400

Only way OP will figure this is to go shoot - and if ya cant put five in an inch and a half at 100yards - the rest of the excercise will be kind of frustrating

[EDG]

Some of these experts have a hard time coping with the practical aspect of hitting a 24" square at one mile. Your rifle does not have to group into 2 minutes. Not even close. So says a text book on statistics.

Take enough ammo and you will probably be able to steer several rounds on to the target if you are persistent. The OP never said he was attempting to shoot a group on a 24" square target- just hit it.

[indian joe]

Some of these experts have a hard time coping with the practical aspect of hitting a 24" square at one mile. Your rifle does not have to group into 2 minutes. Not even close. So says a text book on statistics.

Take enough ammo and you will probably be able to steer several rounds on to the target if you are persistent. The OP never said he was attempting to shoot a group on a 24" square target- just hit it.

Well yeah !! throw enough lead in the general direction one of em will likely connect - I was assuming by hit it he meant --you know -- take aim -- fire the shot ---hit the target..........................or at least almost hit it??
Who was the feller said "liars, dam lies, and statistics"

[Lead pot]

I won't comment on the bullet your wanting to use. But I'm curious what you're going to use for sights for that 24" target at a mile to see that little white spot?

[Thundermaker]

I won't comment on the bullet your wanting to use. But I'm curious what you're going to use for sights for that 24" target at a mile to see that little white spot?

Firsr of all, I didn't say I was hell-bent on using that bullet for the mile. I said I was going to start playing with the gun to try and hit a mile target. For that purpose, there are a number of proven designs with as good or better BCs.

I was going to play with that bullet because results are so varied with it, and I'm curious as to why. I asked for data to see if I can recognize a common pattern between failed attempts and sucessful ones.

As for sights, my eyes are good enough at the moment to see the target. I'm going to order the MVA extra long range sight, as it's the only one I know of with enough elevation to get to that distance.

[rfd]

interesting project yer pursuing, thundermaker. i hope it doesn't become a don quixote quest for ya. as to that lee bullet, and as i've posted here about it, i found that its design leaves much to be desired for consistent 200 yard accuracy let alone long range accuracy. its spire point and limited bearing surface create an instability, even with a pedersoli 1:18 twist. true, for 20-30 bucks it's a cheap mould (that many have found it not so concentric), but i would suggest that there are many other well proven long distance .45 bullet moulds to chose that will save you time, rather than money, from the get-go. this will be extremely important for a bullet that's required to travel 760 yards beyond the usual extreme long distance of 1000 yards. just rendering my opinions to yer questions. good luck.

[john.k]

you can reduce the drag of any grooved bullet by eliminating the grooves........about a 10% reduction at subsonic velocities.....so a smooth side paper patched bullet is indicated at 1 mile.......even then ,its gonna be down to walking speed.

[Thundermaker]

interesting project yer pursuing, thundermaker. i hope it doesn't become a don quixote quest for ya. as to that lee bullet, and as i've posted here about it, i found that its design leaves much to be desired for consistent 200 yard accuracy let alone long range accuracy. its spire point and limited bearing surface create an instability, even with a pedersoli 1:18 twist. true, for 20-30 bucks it's a cheap mould (that many have found it not so concentric), but i would suggest that there are many other well proven long distance .45 bullet moulds to chose that will save you time, rather than money, from the get-go. this will be extremely important for a bullet that's required to travel 760 yards beyond the usual extreme long distance of 1000 yards. just rendering my opinions to yer questions. good luck.

Your opinions actually pertain to the question and include reasoning and experience, instead of just, "haha, good luck, noob!". As such, they are appreciated.

I've considered the issue of bearing surface. That's why I've shied away from designs like the "NASA" bullet. I'm thinking I may be better off with the saeco 881 (govn't bullet) and going from there. If I need more velocity, there's always 3f.

I'm going to leave paper patching alone for now. That's a whole different learning curve.

[Edward]

Your opinions actually pertain to the question and include reasoning and experience, instead of just, "haha, good luck, noob!". As such, they are appreciated.

I've considered the issue of bearing surface. That's why I've shied away from designs like the "NASA" bullet. I'm thinking I may be better off with the saeco 881 (govn't bullet) and going from there. If I need more velocity, there's always 3f.

I'm going to leave paper patching alone for now. That's a whole different learning curve.

Lyman Postell will get you there (reasonable cost and predictable performance)/just sayin Ed

[Don McDowell]

Hitting a target 3 times the size of the one you're comptemplating at 1 mile with any sort of regularity is going to be a problem with the 45-70. One of the mini groove money bullets 530 grains would be the first place to try. They do require wiping between shots no matter what the distance.
From experience I can tell you if you're shooting with a soul sight on the rear you'll need one capable of giving another 3 inches minimum of staff over the setting for 1000 yards. Something with lots of windage is going to be required as well, as the natural spin drift of a bullet is about 2 inches right at 800. Start with a mechanical zero the gives about 6 inches left of a center hold at 200,in a no wind situation, and go from there. The wind will not be your friend at 1 mile.

[rfd]

the 1 mile quest is super daunting with any cartridge let alone one from the 19th century cartridge. if i were to have any ghost of a chance with a .45-70 i'd go paper patched, with a BACO Jim443530E slick and stuff at least 83 grains of swiss 1-1/2f to 3f under it. that will turn a .45-70 into a virtual .45-90. gonna need all the horsepower possible for 1700 yards. i'd also be realistic about the mark to be hit - at best i'd be lucky to hit an SUV let a lone a sewer cover.

[Don McDowell]

So far the only cartridges that have been successful at the Wasserburger mile , have been the 45-110, and the 50-90. The big 50 was pushing a 750 gr grease groove bullet with 126 grains of powder. The 110 accomplished it with both grease groove and patched.

[Lead pot]

Don they shot at a very large target at the mile shoot. He is shooting at a 2' square. I think even my .50-2.5 would have my ammo box empty and would not hit it if I could even see the little dot at a mile. :D

242073

[Don McDowell]

Kurt it was Randy E that won the match one year with his 50. They recovered one of his bullets stuck in part of the target at an angle well over 45 degrees. Kenny got it 9 times at one of the matches with his 110. I don't remember whether they shot 30 or 40 rounds. The spotters in the bunker about 300 yards in front of the target reported most misses were either way short or way wide to one side or the other.

[Lead pot]

Don that is understandable shooting over those sand dunes when the sun is blazing down.
I have never tried the mile but I shot at a full sized iron buffalo at 1585 yards using a 485 gr bullet with my .44-77 using the barrel sights over the Nebraska sand dunes in some pretty good wind and it took about 4-5 shots to get on him holding on dark grass patches about 4 targets off and it was hard seeing the target over the barrel sights. I still had enough elevation left on the Lawrence ladder sight to reach the 200 yards needed for a mile. If I'm still in the neighborhood when the Badlands match is on I will shoot the mile match they run.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny's match there's really not much for sand dunes, it's mostly just pasture. The firing line is up on a ridge and the target is across a pretty big draw.
Dan's match is something that's been on my bucket list for a long time. Was thinking this might be the year, but with the rescheduling of the Wyoming State match, looks like Dan's will have to wait another year.

[Lead pot]

Here is the target we used. That Buff had a rather large hump :) But when you read about the hide hunters making long range hits on Buffalos it's very doable.

242089

[country gent]

For what your wanting to do I would recommend testing several bullets in the rifle. If you only want to buy one mould buy beg or borrow some to test. Find the best performing bullet in Your rifle. Buy the mould and cast up good consistant slugs. Then chronograph the loads at 2 points and use a Ballistics program to figure the actual BC. I have found BCs to be "optimistic" for many bullets both jacketed and cast. Also BCs change with the velocity. In this way you have the most accurate BC to work with when figuring your trajectory and sight settings. I have a lab radar and its very good for getting the 2 velocities for figuring BC on a given bullet since it gives 5 readings from muzzle to 200 yds on the same shot.

Wind, light, velocity spreads, weather, your physical shape on a given day all are going to have a big effect on this. reading wind over a mile is going to be a big job in itself. Light when shooting Iron sights will affect size of bull and shape. Mirage again will be a factor to deal with.