ATF Annual inspection reveals new regulation on inlne muzzleloaders

[Smoke4320]

Had my ATF annual FFL inspection and was giving the following rule change
any inline muzzleloader using a primer is now classified as a firearm and will now have to have a 4473 filled out and background check
241690

[rdwarrior]

Figured that would be coming some day. now are they going to limit the magazine size for inline ML? :killingpc

[Omega]

It was in this bulletin, I had seen it discussed elsewhere but didn't pay it no mind. I haven't purchased an in-line for some time so had not seen them use a Form 4473 yet, but that does raise a question. Does it change any hunting regulations if they label it primitive weapons season vs muzzle loader season?
https://www.atf.gov/file/83981/download

[725]

As usual, there is conflicting gibberish within the reg. Early in the page they describe an ignition system that uses a striker that moves "in line with the bore". Read that to mean a hammer (something that pivots on an axle and rotates into striking the primer) functions not covered by the reg. even though it's used to strike a modern primer. Besides, it won't be long before our historian type members chime in and demonstrate, in abundance, examples of very old in-line ML's. How hard is it to think a gun loaded from the muzzle is a muzzleloader and isn't the preferred weapon of gang-bangers & drug dealers from the south side of Chicago. Good grief.

[Idz]

Too many government bureaucrats with too little useful work to do.

[rcslotcar]

Guess assault M/L are next. When was the last time a M/L was used in a crime?

[Smoke4320]

But but its for the children

[arcticap]

Had my ATF annual FFL inspection and was giving the following rule change
any inline muzzleloader using a primer is now classified as a firearm and will now have to have a 4473 filled out and background check
241690


I think that this is a hoax.
Someone has brought to my attention:

1. The regulation was a discussion back in 1997.

2. The section beginning on Page 2 of this FFL newsletter where it says "Muzzle Loading Firearms" explains why it's not true.--->>> https://www.atf.gov/file/56421/download

[Smoke4320]

It is NOT a hoax.. It was brought to my attention on my FFL inspection yesterday
Inspector Tim Mabe... senior investigator industry operations Charlotte NC office
he is the one that gave me the copy I scanned and posted
until yesterday I never ran a 4473 on a muzzleloader sale as I was aware of the 2005 letter... MR Mabe said you now have to do a 4473 on all inline ML sales
I wonder if it may come from the last lines of the 2005 reg you posted

241709

"Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively." bold by me

by doing a 4473 it MIGHT catch those prohibited persons .. again just a guess on my part
I am just posting what I was told during the inspection and we all know the ATF can and will change definitions when THEY want to...

kind of like I was also told I now have to attach a coy of the form 4 (Transfer class 3 dealer to end user) to a filled out 4473 when the customer comes to pickup his approved suppressor or FA weapon

[arcticap]

It is NOT a hoax.. It was brought to my attention on my FFL inspection yesterday
Inspector Tim Mabe... senior investigator industry operations Charlotte NC office
he is the one that gave me the copy I scanned and posted
until yesterday I never ran a 4473 on a muzzleloader sale as I was aware of the 2005 letter... MR Mabe said you now have to do a 4473 on all inline ML sales
I wonder if it may come from the last lines of the 2005 reg you posted

241709

"Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively." bold by me

by doing a 4473 it MIGHT catch those prohibited persons .. again just a guess on my part
I am just posting what I was told during the inspection and we all know the ATF can and will change definitions when THEY want to...

kind of like I was also told I now have to attach a coy of the form 4 (Transfer class 3 dealer to end user) to a filled out 4473 when the customer comes to pickup his approved suppressor or FA weapon


There's a problem with that rationale since you quoted a statement that said that these prohibited persons aren't prohibited from possessing antique guns.
Did he tell you that you also needed to perform a background check and fill out a form 4473 when selling primers too?

I haven't seen this topic discussed anywhere else and I was told that Midway is still selling inlines.
Perhaps you should make a call to his office to double check and to find out the truth.

If he's a Federal employee who lied to you while performing his duty, I would report him to his superiors.

[Hickory]

Is a cap considered a primer?

[Smoke4320]

There's a problem with that rationale since you quoted a statement that said that these persons aren't prohibited from possessing antique guns.
Did he tell you that you also needed to perform a background check and fill out a form 4473 when selling primers too?

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else and I was told that Midway is still selling inlines.
Perhaps you should make a call to his office to double check and to find out the truth.

If he's a Federal employee who lied to you while performing his duty, I would report him to his superiors.

Arcticap "There's a problem with that rationale since you quoted a statement that said that these persons aren't prohibited from possessing antique guns."

per his statement and the letter . the 4473 would be for inlines that use a modern style shotgun, pistol, rifle primer
the Midway example is no good either as I already said I knew nothing about this till my inspection. 2 days ago I would sell anyone a inline muzzleloader that uses a regular primer
just like Midway.

in any case yes I do believe some verification is in order. Hopefully a couple other FFL's on here will contact their local office as well and see if we get competing or confirming answers. I will be calling up the ladder so to speak as time warrants

[Smoke4320]

Hickory per both the letter I was given and the 2005 letter percussion caps are not considered primers

[Hickory]

Hickory per both the letter I was given and the 2005 letter percussion caps are not considered primers

Not yet!

[Shawlerbrook]

We all are safer now !

[RED BEAR]

Little by little we are losing our rights.

[Smoke4320]

I had to laugh some as well.. we stated closing on Mondays starting in January.. Had to fill out a form to report that to the ATF in December 2018. In addition my license renewed in Feburary 2019
I reported on the renewal the new times open and closed (as also reported Dec 2018) new phone number, new cell phone number
He shows up on Monday remember I am closed just happened to have come over to do some quick paperwork.
at the end of the inspection he goes over all the business info WRONG hours, Wrong phone numbers and now they wanted proof I owned the property.. something about squatters opening businesses on vacant properties.. Keep in mind I have had an FFL for over 15 years.. had to produce zoning records before I could even get the FFL

[Hickory]

NO ROCKET SCIENCE NEEDED.

Gun manufactures could make and sell guns/barrels with a nipple, that could be converted to primer use.
This is already done with cap&ball revolvers. They can be converted to shoot cartridges.

[RogerDat]

Well some of those civil war models take a bayonet which I think makes them assault rifles. I mean Gettysburg charges would certainly qualify as assaulting a position so any model of rifle used there must be an assault rifle, the bayonet lug just confirms the obvious assault rifle nature of it. Cartridge pouches are limited to 10 paper cartridges in California and New Jersey. I had also wondered how long it would take to change the treatment of these type of rifles. As they are very accurate and powerful with modern innovations I could not see them being ignored. Not that I think it will make a tinkers dam in gun violence or homicide statistics.

[Petrol & Powder]

Few points here:
Antique firearm applies to federal law. The 1968 GCA and the related federal codes that flow from that act to be specific.

A person must be in compliance with BOTH federal law and the appropriate state law - Either sovereignty (state or federal) can put you in prison for violating their laws. So be careful about dealing with prohibited persons, they can sometimes possess an antique firearm under federal law but still be prohibited from possessing a firearm under state law. (For example Virginia defines a firearm as a device originally designed to propel a projectile by explosive means;... and that includes guns made way before 1898)

ATF always has the ability to define antique firearm.

As for hunting laws, with the exception of some federal laws - most hunting laws are created by individual states. So this new definition doesn't change much unless the states change their laws as well.

[sukivel]

Guess assault M/L are next. When was the last time a M/L was used in a crime?

1775...when that gang from across the pond came looking for trouble.


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[Onebad06vtx]

Sounds like your getting the run around,Hope you straighten them out!

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not buying this, on many levels.

First, the form you posted says 1997. Unless we have been ignoring the law for 22 years, that's strike one.

Two, there is NO mention of it anywhere online. People would be in an uproar about something like this.

Three, this wouldn't stop anything, and the BATFE knows it. If this were to come into law worded as that is, every inline manufacturer would begin selling rifles with a nipple breech plug. A 209 primer breech plug is $20.

Four, I just went onto Midway USA. I can still buy an inline rifle, and have it shipped to my door. It even says next day shipping.

On top of all of that, they keep using that 1898 as a cutoff year. They state "Primers are not an antique ignition system, and are ammunition for firearms subject to regulation."

Primers are not ammunition #1
#2, both Boxer and Berdan primers were invented in the 1860's...

[M-Tecs]

I'm not buying this, on many levels.

First, the form you posted says 1997. Unless we have been ignoring the law for 22 years, that's strike one.

Two, there is NO mention of it anywhere online. People would be in an uproar about something like this.

Three, this wouldn't stop anything, and the BATFE knows it. If this were to come into law worded as that is, every inline manufacturer would begin selling rifles with a nipple breech plug. A 209 primer breech plug is $20.

Four, I just went onto Midway USA. I can still buy an inline rifle, and have it shipped to my door. It even says next day shipping.

On top of all of that, they keep using that 1898 as a cutoff year. They state "Primers are not an antique ignition system, and are ammunition for firearms subject to regulation."

Primers are not ammunition #1
#2, both Boxer and Berdan primers were invented in the 1860's...

You beat me to waving the B.*. flag.

On a side note you can do this https://money.cnn.com/2017/09/21/news/companies/silencer-muzzleloader/index.html

If I remember correctly these was part of the stuff that happened when the Henry Ball designed Savage 10ML1 was being introduced. It used the standard action so they had be go thru an FFL. The solution was the Savage 10ML2 and the BATF claimed the above notice for awhile. It was rescinded a little later.

Must be the same agent that claims airsoft rifles are easily converted to full auto centerfire rifles.

[tomme boy]

He is flat out WRONG! They already took care of this as the TC guns, Savage, Traditions Optimas that were able to take a barrel that is a CENTERFIRE cartridge or shotshell has to have a 4473. There already is a clarification letter out there somewhere. I had it at one time.

Call or email the main BATF and ask for a clarification as this JA does not know what he is talking about. This is how people get railroaded then waste a few thousand $ of lawyers fees for them to say SORRY!

[tomme boy]

This is why the Optimas that are a ML can not take a centerfire barrel. It is also why Savage changed the design of their action so it can't take a centerfire barrel.

They are two different things. This all came from the TC actions. They WERE being sold as ML's at first with no paperwork They also then changed the action so they can not take a centerfire barrel anymore IF they were the new ML TC version.

[Smoke4320]

OK just got off the Phone with the ATF ..
my inspector was "partially" incorrect ..Their statement or CYA....he had and gave me the old ruling from 1997 and did not mention anything about the 2005 newsletter which I SHOULD have questioned
4473 ARE required ONLY for those models than can ready take a modern ammo barrel

I was sent the same 2005 FFL newsletter as was posted here as an explanation

Many modern in-line muzzleloaders including those that use #209 shotgun primers for ignition now meet the definition of “antique firearm” and are excluded from the provisions of the GCA. However, there are some muzzleloaders that are still firearms subject to GCA controls. For example, firearms which can be switched from muzzleloaders to breechloaders by exchanging the barrel are still GCA firearms. In addition, a modern firearm that is altered to function as a muzzleloader is still a firearm.
The following are some examples of muzzleloaders that are still GCA firearms:
Thompson Center G2 Contender 209-45 Thompson Center Encore 209-50 The H&R 1871 Huntsman Rossi S50 Mauser 98 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel Remington 870 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel Mossberg 500 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel
Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition, including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including
shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively.

and find the last underlined part as very interesting as it says shotguns primers are considered ammo and prohibited persons can not possess shotgun primers .. yet we are not required to run a background check when we sell shotgun primers

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

me thinks your atf buddy is smoking crack and full of it.

[Smoke4320]

Yes its sad when the ones charged with enforcing the laws don't know it themselves

[john.k]

officials making up laws to back up their personal prejudices........not exactly rare......try dealing with the local council......the inspectors issue penalty notices for non existant laws......and to fight them ,you must spend money on lawyers,or pay the fine.

[arcticap]

Thanks Smoke4320 for making the effort to clear it up.

[Smoke4320]

Well I started the ruckus figured I needed to go to the top and get an answer
should have just called the big bosses first before posting

[JBinMN]

Thanks for sharing the info, Smoke4320~

[tomme boy]

Told ya