New to reloading hulls and have a few questions.

[archangel2003]

I'm reloading some slug loads and have a few observation/questions.

Today I did order the 7th edition slug loading manual and it should be here by next weekend.

All the wads I have purchased so far are listed with load data for use in the hulls I have so I assume they will work together.

I used the published recipe listed below and have test fired a few at the range and they seem "work well" as in the slugs went where I was aiming, the gun did not blow up and the hulls looked no worse after firing them, if any of that even matters with hulls being different that brass cased pistol/rifle ammo.

Question #1
In my store purchased, factory made shells (slug, buckshot or bird shot), there is no rattle when I shake the loaded hull, but when I shake the ones that I have reloaded, I can hear the powder rattle.
Question: Is that acceptable to have an air gap like there is in pistol and rifle brass rounds?

Question #2
In some load data I see a pressure listed for compressing the powder under the wad, (I assume that would prevent the powder rattling around) but if I try to compress the WAA 12L wad into the powder, the wad legs between the pressure seal and the shot cup fold and it scrunches the slug way down into the hull and then the slug is too low in the shell for a proper crimp, (it might as well be trimmed to the length of an Agulia shell) and the crimp folds inside the top of the shell leaving a lot of unused space above the slug and the slug is loose.
If I push it in until it seems to want to stop, it fits great.
Question: How do I compress the wads like they compress the factory wads to prevent loose powder?

Question #3
I had originally planned on using and purchased some CL411812B CLAYBUSTER 12 GA WINDJAMMER wads but was unable to find a recipe listing them for my hull, or any load with a single lead slug, but they do list it with the same weight bird shot, but the book warn not to substitute anything.
This Claybuster wad is one that is built rather sturdy and would not scrunch down like the the WAA 12L wad legs do and I might get some powder compression or at leas minimize the free space where the powder resides.
If I use a more sturdy wad, like the windjammer I already have, I should be able to compress the space below it better.
Question: Any thoughts on trying them out under a 7/8 oz slug with the 7/8 oz shot data?


Question #4
I have found various loads using identical components except instead of a one piece of lead slug, they list a load is the same weight of various shot.
Question: Is it reasonable to think that 7/8 oz of a load should be 7/8 oz, no matter if it's #9 shot, #7 shot, #4 Bird shot, #4 Buck shot, OO Buck shot, or even a slug?



Gun Club Slug Recipe that came with the LEE reloading press.
HULL = Once fired REMINGTON GUN CLUB/PREMIER/NITRO 27
SLUG = LEE 7/8
PRIMER = WIN 209
WAD = WAA 12L
POWDER = HODGDON HS6 @ 38 grains= 1550 f/s and the actual weight of powder thrown by the lee loading press is falling between 36 and 38 Grains.

[Hogtamer]

Typed a bunch and lost it....grrrr....short version: No, powder should never "rattle." Press wad down firmly. That wad is too long and the 38 gr of hs-6 will knock your manhood in the dirt. Computer are wonderful for guestimating pressure, etc, but don't think most of the listed loads have actually been loaded for fitment! Couldn't find the thread to link but jere are a couple of pics loaded with your hull, win 209 primer, win aa12 wad, one or two 20 ga. 1/8" hard cards under slug, 34 gr hs-6 (will shoot through an elephant) and 8 pt crimp.
241641
241642

[archangel2003]

Typed a bunch and lost it....grrrr....
Been there and now use a saved with a name word document for everything.


No, powder should never "rattle." Press wad down firmly. That wad is too long.
I know the one piece hull tapers a little near the bottom so it might be pinching the sides before it bottoms out, and it seems to be the correct length as it crimps ok if I don't try to mash it down to compress the powder causing the, (what do we call them things between the gas seal and the shot cup, legs?) legs to buckle.


The 38 gr of hs-6 will knock your manhood in the dirt. 34 gr hs-6 (will shoot through an elephant)
It does kick firmly with a nice belch of fire coming out the muzzle.
The thought of it being powerful is comforting as I'm loading some extra rounds just in case the fabled **** or EOTWAWKI comes to fruition. If not, I'll have some fun to shoot ammo.


Computer are wonderful for guesstimating pressure, etc, but don't think most of the listed loads have actually been loaded for fitment! Couldn't find the thread to link but here are a couple of pics loaded with your hull, win 209 primer, win aa12 wad, one or two 20 ga. 1/8" hard cards under slug, and 8 pt crimp.

I'm going to load one tonight substituting the same volume of cream of wheat for gun powder and cut open the side and see how far the wad gas seal actually goes into the hull.
The shotgun loading book I got was supposed to list what does and does not work and it says the wads I got will work with the hull I have!

[archangel2003]

So, I cut 3 hulls up, one in half, one with a 1/8" slice to the brass, and one intact with all having the crimp portion removed and this is what I found.
The taper where the hole in the hull gets smaller starts about 1/2" up from the bottom face of the hull, and where the wad quickly binds, it leaves something like 3/16" to 1/4" chamber where the powder resides.
These wads are most definitely not working with this hull, unless the open chamber is supposed to be there, and that seems unlikely as there are much smaller powder charges for this hull, and that could leave the primer exposed allowing a flash ignition over the surface of said powder causing huge pressure spike (at least that is what can happen in a brass rifle/pistol cartridge) and that is undesirable to say the least.

Now I need to find hulls for all the WAA 12L and Windjammer wads I have and wads to fit all the gun club hulls I have!
And I'm going to have a couple hundred slug loaded shells to disassemble!

[Markopolo]

Your on the right track... and one good lesson learned.. I personally never load a whole bunch of anything ever without testing stuff first.. most I ever do while working out a load is 20, and that is only when I am getting close to perfection.. please dont ask me why, I will only embarrass myself more..lol... ok, I will tell you anyway... once when I was pretty new to reloading, but not new to hoarding, I loaded over 1000 rounds up without testing, and had to disassemble. Ruined lots of stuff over the course of several days.. I was so proud of myself when I got that ammo can full.. took me way longer to disassemble then it did to assemble... that was almost 40 years ago. I also never cast a whole lot of boolits from a new mold until I test the Boolit out, although it is far easier to throw reject boolits back into the pot, with the exception of Boolit lube and gas checks being wasted...

:groner:

[bikerbeans]

Looks like you loaded a wad meant for a straight wall hull into a tapered wall hull.

Many have, myself included, substituted a slug of an equal weight of shot in a recipe. The trick is finding a slug that works with the wad.

BB

[dverna]

Agree with bikerbeans. Load for shot should be safe for a slug of equal weight. Might need a card wad to get the slug to the correct height for a good crimp. But check that the slug/wad fit is safe in the bore. It should push though without a lot of force.

[gpidaho]

Although Lee gives load data for slugs in the tapered hulls like the old style Winchester AA's you won't find factory slugs loaded in tapered hulls. Strait sided hulls and appropriate wads are what is needed for slugs. Save the tapered hulls for shot. Gp

[centershot]

Archangel2003, If you were following published information when loading that set of components, I'd be very leery of any other info in that manual until you check it yourself for proper fit! You can interchange slugs for shot of the same weight and that is where round balls become a thing of beauty! A .662",.678", or .690" round ball will fit in most 12 gauge wads and when launched with what is, essentially, a 3 dram trap load those balls are flying around 1250 fps. Easy on the shoulder and power enough for anything in North America! Or TEOTWAWKI!

[Hogtamer]

If they crimped "ok" and you used the suggested components why must you dissasemble? Just shoot 'em. I showed you a picture of a perfectly crimped hull like the one you used, the only difference was a WAA12 instead of the longer Win wad you used and 4 gr less of the same powder. You need about 7/16" from top of hull to payload for good crimp. No man or beast in GA will hold that slug at 50 yds. How accurate they are out of your barrel is the real hurdle.

[megasupermagnum]

I have the same problem with Remington hulls and slugs. The best way is to not use them. Winchester hulls, even the new two piece hulls have a lot less taper.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My standard Pumpkin ball load was built around Winchester old style AA hulls. It is 18 gr of Green Dot, a Claybuster WAA12 clone, 1/4" Felt wad with a .662 ball sitting on top. The crimp closed perfectly and worked great.

For a slug load that won't beat you up they are hard to beat, and my First One hit the 50 Meter Steel Chicken at my range dead center, so I concluded that the "sighting in" phase of testing was done. Accuracy at 50 Meters is good enough for anything you'd shoot at 50 meters. There is probably more there, I just haven't tried it.

Randy

[archangel2003]

I originally made only 10 of them and took them to a local pistol range that also allows rifles and slug test firing and they tested ok, but I could only shoot at pistol distances.
There aren't any local ranges that is affordable for the occasional shooter, only clubs with yearly member$hip$.

[bikerbeans]

Breaking down bad ammo is a prerequist to learning how to handload properly. I have worn out several inertia bullet pullers learning how to load pistol and rifle cartridges. With messed up shotshells i just cut the mouth off the hull with a 2" chop saw and dump out the contents.

BB

[W.R.Buchanan]

Typically all public ranges or club ran ranges have to have Public Shoot days where the public can come to shoot. Mine does and it is the 4th Saturday of every month and costs $10 to shoot. All you have to do is obey the Range Master and everything is good.

I'm sure if you show up at the range and ask they will let you shoot. The whole idea is to get as many people shooting as possible, not push people away.

If they do push you away, talk to the club leaders. If they are promoting keeping non members away they are idiots and need to be reported to the NRA! The NRA will plumb them up in a minute.

Randy

[archangel2003]

There is one public place about 20 minutes away that allows trap shooting shotguns but only #7 and smaller diameter shot.

[centershot]

Archangel2003, wherabouts do you live?

[archangel2003]

Near Joliet Illinois.
I'd want a pistol and rifle range with up to 300 yards and the only public one I found so far that fits the bill was the Kingsbury Shooting Range in La Porte, Indiana.
Last time I called it was in the mid thirties, and over the constant gunfire I barely made out him saying it was $4 all day, bring and shoot whatever you want.
I'll have to take a couple days off mid week and head out with everything I need to test.

[MT Chambers]

If you follow the manuals as to hulls, wads, etc. without straying, the crimp should firm everything up so there is no rattling. If you sub any component, shot or powder charge, it will change the fit of components in the hulls and cause rattling, crimps falling "in", or crimps popping/pushing out.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Another way to go at it is to Roll Crimp your shells. Roll Crimping self adjusts to changes in column height. Learning how to
Roll Crimp is not hard and is well covered here in several threads.

Randy

[archangel2003]

If you follow the manuals as to hulls, wads, etc. without straying, the crimp should firm everything up so there is no rattling. If you sub any component, shot or powder charge, it will change the fit of components in the hulls and cause rattling, crimps falling "in", or crimps popping/pushing out.
Um, nope, the wad jams against he sides of the hull as the tapered diameter reduces and stops leaving a HUGE chamber below the gas seal, and using more pressure in an attempt to get it to go deeper just folds the WAA 12L wad legs pushing the cup and slug deeper but leaving the gas seal were it jams, and I'd need much more powder to fill that chamber.

And I am following the manual as far as hull, wad, powder, primer and projectile are concerned.

[archangel2003]

Another way to go at it is to Roll Crimp your shells. Roll Crimping self adjusts to changes in column height. Learning how to
Roll Crimp is not hard and is well covered here in several threads.
Randy

How would roll crimping the top of the hull have any effect on the bottom of the wad where the powder resides?
I have a roll crimper and will eventually get around to doing it, but this issue has to be addressed first.

[gpidaho]

Just a question, not any sort of a put down. Why do you insist 0n using these tapered hulls? They aren't meant for slugs. Gp

[dsh1106]

I'm still learning this shot shell loading, going on three years now, but I have learned one thing. I won't use any published or unpublished load data that combines wads designed for a tapered wall hull in a straight wall hull or vice versa.

When I started loading I followed the published data without question, I had burnt and destroyed wads and a mess to clean out of my barrel(s).

Just my $.02

[W.R.Buchanan]

How would roll crimping the top of the hull have any effect on the bottom of the wad where the powder resides?
I have a roll crimper and will eventually get around to doing it, but this issue has to be addressed first.

Yes it does need to be addressed because the roll crimp will only go down to the top of whatever payload you are shooting. If you can't push the wad down to the top of the powder charge, something else is wrong.

I suggest you read my latest comment on the Roll Crimping thread about what kind of hulls work the best.

Randy

[archangel2003]

Just a question, not any sort of a put down. Why do you insist 0n using these tapered hulls? They aren't meant for slugs. Gp
No put down assumed.
I, being new to this area of reloading, used a Published recipe and it listed this hull, that wad, this powder and that primer, so I followed it.
Most importantly to start I made my choice with and chose a one piece hull because it would not have the potential of a barrel obstruction because of a base wad separation, and it was not only available but was not costly either (relatively speaking).
My first choice for a one piece straight hull (no separate base wad) were never in stock.

[gpidaho]

archangel2003: I believe that you would do very well by obtaining the Advantage Manual 10th edition from the folks at BPI. In just the first few pages all of the concerns you've posted are addressed. They are also a very good vendor that supplies many of us with the components we need to craft our loads. I recently purchased a whole case (2200) of Cheddite primed hulls from them for just $99. This deal is still available as are many offers of lesser quantity. A 100 hull bag of primed hulls can be had for around $10. That's pretty inexpensive to overcome a lot of frustration. Gp

[MT Chambers]

Um, nope, the wad jams against he sides of the hull as the tapered diameter reduces and stops leaving a HUGE chamber below the gas seal, and using more pressure in an attempt to get it to go deeper just folds the WAA 12L wad legs pushing the cup and slug deeper but leaving the gas seal were it jams, and I'd need much more powder to fill that chamber.

And I am following the manual as far as hull, wad, powder, primer and projectile are concerned.

um nope??? I believe that you are not following the manual's recommendation, if they recommend components for say 1 1/8ounces of shot and you use a slug instead, then you aren't following the recommendations.

[fastdadio]

How does one know if a listed hull is straight wall or tapered? I never see them listed in the loading manuals with this identified.

[archangel2003]

um nope??? I believe that you are not following the manual's recommendation, if they recommend components for say 1 1/8ounces of shot and you use a slug instead, then you aren't following the recommendations.

So, there is also a load with those same components for shot as well?
If so the load will still have the same issue.
The load said to use these.

HULL = REMINGTON GUN CLUB/PREMIER/NITRO 27
SLUG = LEE 7/8 oz
PRIMER = WIN 209
WAD = WAA 12L
POWDER = HODGDON HS6 @ 38 GRAINS = 1550 f/s

The only issue I have noticed is the loose powder rattling around, but they seemed to shoot ok at pistol ranges.

[archangel2003]

archangel2003: I believe that you would do very well by obtaining the Advantage Manual 10th edition from the folks at BPI. In just the first few pages all of the concerns you've posted are addressed. They are also a very good vendor that supplies many of us with the components we need to craft our loads. I recently purchased a whole case (2200) of Cheddite primed hulls from them for just $99. This deal is still available as are many offers of lesser quantity. A 100 hull bag of primed hulls can be had for around $10. That's pretty inexpensive to overcome a lot of frustration. Gp

I already have the Lyman shot-shell reloading manual, and did just order the Slug Loading Manual7th edition and it's supposed to be a good resource for slug loading.
It should have been here by now.
If I don't find my true love there, I'll order the Advantage Manual 10th edition and have a look see.

[gpidaho]

-I have found the BPI Slug Loading Manual #7 to be a little disappointing. While it does contain some loads that are not all BPI products, it doesn't contain any that don't require some. Fair enough I guess, it is their publication. Most of us here aren't going to spend a lot on projectiles that someone else builds for sale and prefer to cast our own. No matter who publishes the manual, all the how to information should be read and understood before proceeding to the load data. BPI's Advantage #10 has very good information in my opinion.Gp

[GhostHawk]

I agree that hulls should have a notation if they are straight walled and tapered. Ideall both hulls and wads would be cross indexed. If you buy these hulls you want X or Y wads.

This would make life a LOT easier for someone just getting started.

Like GPIdaho I found good bargains for new, primed hulls, skived and unskived at 9-10 cents each. Take away the price of the primer and they are often cheaper that used AA hulls.

I had no problems doing a few minor adjustments so they had clean factory looking crimps. Most of mine were loaded with a tactical buckshot load. 9 #1 buckshot over a moderate load of Red Dot. Some slugs. Considering the price of slugs and buckshot these days I feel like this whole endevour has paid for itself. I did load up one box of my dripped shot. Will hopefully be testing them all shortly.

[dsh1106]

How does one know if a listed hull is straight wall or tapered? I never see them listed in the loading manuals with this identified.

Based on what I have learned and tried since I started down this road:
Winchester wads are designed/fit for tapered wall hulls
Federal wads are designed/fit for straight wall hulls
I haven't tried any Remington wads, but most of the used Remington hulls I've tried were tapered wall. I would guess that the wads used on these were designed/fit for tapered wall as well.

I'm sure there are exceptions to everything I've mentioned here, but the components I mentioned seem to be pretty common items listed in most manuals for 12 gauge 2 3/4" shells

[oso]

Sorry to be late to this discussion, as this all makes no sense from the get go. I have no problem loading 38 grains HS6 in a GC/Nitro 27/Premier STS Remington hull with a 7/8 oz Lee key drive slug in a WAA12L wad. Except I don't enjoy shooting that stiff a load - my personal max is 35 grains HS6 and I prefer a lot lighter load than that.
No rattling powder! Slice the hull open and no air space between the wad and the powder! Wad legs OK!
The WAA12 wad series are all for taper wall hulls. I haven't used Claybuster Windjammer style wads but according to Claybuster they are "sized to accommodate the new AA and STS hulls." If I had 'em I'd use the CB4100-12B Lightning rather than the CB4118-12B Windjammer for a 7/8 oz Lee Key Drive slug.
If I were Archangel 2003 I'd recheck the details of the entire loading procedure. Powder drops consistent? The already loaded shells may be fine?!
Rem hulls have a reputation for varying length, but the interiors should be consistent.

[oso]

Another point raised was base wad separation. If reloading Reifenhauser style straight wall hulls I check the height of the base wad visually or with a marked dowel to detect raised base wads and discard such hulls. Straight wall hulls are great for card and fiber which let you tailor stack height. So archangel 2003, if the slug is low enough to rattle adding a disk or square (easier to cut) of paper towel or thin styrofoam under the slug will let you tailor the fit. Is it the slug or powder that you hear rattling?
OK, that's enough from Great Grandpa Graybeard.