Maximum Legal Caliber

[GregLaROCHE]

I have always thought that the max caliber for a rifle was .50. I’ve seen 12ga shotguns shooting pumpkin balls then slugs, then rifled slugs and finally rifled sabot slugs. All that I understand can fall within the regs of a shotgun. However, I don’t understand how we can now have rifled shotgun barrels, that are more than .50 inch in diameter.

I have nothing against them. I am just wondering how they are not considered rifles.

Thanks

[Rick Hodges]

It is just the rules.....they make silly rules about center fire rifles and exempt shotguns....I know of no place that limits rifle sizes for muzzle loaders either. They make the rules but they are not responsible for making sense out of them.

[NyFirefighter357]

I believe the argument was/is they use standard SAAMI shotgun pressures approx. 12,000 psi. The rifling doesn't make the "slug" shoot any further it just makes it more accurate.

[toallmy]

I live in a no center fire rifles for hunting county , but I can use a smokeless inline - with a scope , and jacket bullets + primer fired . Or a scope mounted slug rifle capable of driving a slug up around 1800 FPS . Oh yeah a cross bow also .
I suppose you need to draw the line somewhere . A single shot handy rifle is just to dangerous ?????
I'm sorry for the drift , I relies your talking about federal regulations not county , town , or state .

[Bmi48219]

So a 600 Nitro Express is illegal? No wonder we are being overrun by coyotes.

[georgerkahn]

It has been my understanding that the .50" size was the determinant size for the maximum bore diameters of rifles which may be possessed by persons, as in the NFA of 1934 ( https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/national-firearms-act ). As are machine guns, bazookas ;), and similar -- which cannot be possessed, period, in some states (from their never permitting possession), while in others one needs pay a $$$ tax $$$, and then may be entitled to possess a NFA-class device. I've never heard of a license for a rifle with a >.50" bore -- thinking this may be the governing place to make inquiry. Story was that -- mostly from Prohibition booze-runners's possession and too regular use of these -- remember the St. Valentine Day's Massacre in 1929? -- one of many widely published events directing our elected government persons to enact necessary legislation to get dangerous weapons off our streets.

[Skipper]

I have always thought that the max caliber for a rifle was .50

The ATF has exemptions for "sporting purposes"

[georgerkahn]

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf is where the rule is written. It is Chapter 44, section 921, sub-section B, where it is written:
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

[richhodg66]

When they make a special hunting season for those who want additional challenge (muzzle loader, archery, etc.) the manufacturers will come up with rule beating equipment to make those less enthusiastic about the challenge able to partake.

Don't get me wrong, I bought a crossbow to archery hunt when Kansas made it legal, just don't seem to have the time it takes to maintain the practice regimen with a long bow or recurve anymore. I also have a cheap inline I use now and then, though my best bucks to date are with a more traditional side lock.

Hunt with what you like as long as it's legal and you know its limitations.

[Texas by God]

The way I understand it, the limit for cartridge handguns is .500". For cartridge rifles it is 1.00". Therefore a .999 Express is legal(but fictional); a 50-70 or .50 BMG Handgun(.510")- is not. The .500 S&W is .500" for a reason.

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[RED BEAR]

Rifled shotguns are to my understanding illegal. The exception granted can be taken away. You have to watch the exact wording of a law. Just because it is not enforced to day doesn't mean it wount be enforced tomorrow. When they ban a shotgun that holds a certain amount of shells in most cases if you make the shells short enough all shotguns could be illegal. And if you don't think liberals know this then you are sadly mistaken.

[megasupermagnum]

The way I understand it, the limit for cartridge handguns is .500". For cartridge rifles it is 1.00". Therefore a .999 Express is legal(but fictional); a 50-70 or .50 BMG Handgun(.510")- is not. The .500 S&W is .500" for a reason.

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500 linebaugh is .510"

[lar45]

The regulations state a bore diameter of 1/2", which is the inner measurement. The groove diameter would be .510".
The larger than 50 Cal has a sporting exemption, it has nothing to do with pressure limits.

[GregLaROCHE]

The way I understand it, the limit for cartridge handguns is .500". For cartridge rifles it is 1.00". Therefore a .999 Express is legal(but fictional); a 50-70 or .50 BMG Handgun(.510")- is not. The .500 S&W is .500" for a reason.

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I’d like to see some regs that state that you can have a rifled cartridge up to one inch. Does that mean you can use a 20mm on prairie dogs if you want to?

[longbow]

This has come up a few times and it seems to me that the "manufactured for sporting purpose" is the determining factor.

The .73 caliber "rifle" thing for 12 ga. shotguns was made an exception, as are some rifles apparently, if produced for sporting purposes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
https://www.atf.gov/file/55446/download

There are people who have posted on this site about making both cartridges and guns of larger than 1/2" bore diameter (and it does say "bore" diameter not groove diameter from what I read) like Ed Hubel and the 700 *** posted several years ago. The answer then was "designed for sporting purposes".

Of course bureaucrats are bureaucrats and their rules don't necessarily make sense nor are they permanent. They can change their minds any time they want.

While the exceptions for cartridge sporting rifles or handgun over 1/2" bore diameter may be repealed or amended at some point I doubt the rifled shotgun issue will be because by definition they are considered shotgun shells used in a shotguns, rifled or not. My opinion anyway.

It appears that the US has some similar laws regarding barrel length as we do in Canada. It is illegal to possess a firearm with barrel length shorter than 457mm (18") if it has been altered after manufacture but it is perfectly legal to buy a shotgun manufactured with a 14" barrel! Pretty silly rule if you ask me. However, that's bureaucrats using your money and my money to make rules we have to live by.

What can you do?

Longbow

Link to 700 ***: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124685-700-***-from-scratch

[RED BEAR]

I can find no difference between a rifle and a shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting slugs. The sporting exemptions could be withdrawn at any time on a wim. Someone explain the difference in a rifle and a slug gun with brass shells.

[longbow]

This doesn't do it for you?

"Any firearm with a bore over 0.50 inch except for shotguns or shotgun shells which have been found to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. (Many firearms with bores over 0.50" inch, such as 10-gauge or 12-gauge shotguns, are exempted from the law because they have been determined to have a "legitimate sporting use".)"

[RED BEAR]

Yes i understand but what makes a shotgun a shotgun. Both can have rifled barrels both can use brass cases and lead bullets. But legally what does it take to be a shotgun. I have read articles on custom made shotguns that were designed along the lines of a rifle just for hunting large game . As far as the sporting exemptions they are open to interpretation and can be changed. I can easily see rifles over .5 having a legitimate sporting purpose for large game. But i doubt they will get an exemption.

[dogrunner]

It has been my understanding that the .50" size was the determinant size for the maximum bore diameters of rifles which may be possessed by persons, as in the NFA of 1934 ( https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/national-firearms-act ). As are machine guns, bazookas ;), and similar -- which cannot be possessed, period, in some states (from their never permitting possession), while in others one needs pay a $$$ tax $$$, and then may be entitled to possess a NFA-class device. I've never heard of a license for a rifle with a >.50" bore -- thinking this may be the governing place to make inquiry. Story was that -- mostly from Prohibition booze-runners's possession and too regular use of these -- remember the St. Valentine Day's Massacre in 1929? -- one of many widely published events directing our elected government persons to enact necessary legislation to get dangerous weapons off our streets.

Not the '34 NFA...........rather the '68 incursion into NFA territory did it..............prior to the latter one could own ANY caliber.......surplus field guns from WW2 were commonly advertised..........one of my great regrets is in not taking a 20MM Lhati with case and all accessories for a lousy 300 bucks...........oh hell.

[reddog81]

A shotgun shoots shotgun shells, a rifle shoots rifle cartirdiges. If you were to develop a 12 gauge brass shotgun shell with a PSI limit of 35,000 2 intelligent enough people could reasonably argue either way, that it’s a shotgun, or conversly that you’ve created a rifle. Do you want to get into that arguement with the ATF? If you ask for an exemption you are then on their radar.

[David2011]

I can find no difference between a rifle and a shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting slugs. The sporting exemptions could be withdrawn at any time on a wim. Someone explain the difference in a rifle and a slug gun with brass shells.


Yes i understand but what makes a shotgun a shotgun. Both can have rifled barrels both can use brass cases and lead bullets. But legally what does it take to be a shotgun. I have read articles on custom made shotguns that were designed along the lines of a rifle just for hunting large game . As far as the sporting exemptions they are open to interpretation and can be changed. I can easily see rifles over .5 having a legitimate sporting purpose for large game. But i doubt they will get an exemption.

Red Bear,

I have absolutely no trouble telling the difference between a large bore rifle's mechanical characteristics and those of a shotgun. To see the difference between a shotgun and a rifle, even SxS double rifles and shotguns, simply look at the difference in thickness at various points along the barrel. It is the barrel that contains the pressure. The metallic cartridge is just a gasket to seal the chamber end to contain the gas.

All of the large bore Nitro Express caliber rifles are legal to possess and use in the United Stated although the game appropriate for them is limited. "Sporting use" can be interpreted to mean target shooting as well as hunting. They were all manufactured for sporting use. You are doubting exemptions that already exist. Certainly the law could be changed. The .600 Nitro Express dates back to around 1900 and the .700 dates to 1988.

From page 39 of "The 2014 edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide." (https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download)

"Shotgun. A weapon designed or re-designed, made or remade, and intend-ed to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or re-made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

What makes a shotgun a shotgun is that it is designed to chamber SHOTGUN shells. Brass shotgun shells are not high pressure cartridges. By the BATFE definition "fixed shotgun shell," that is the limiting factor of the difference between shotgun pressures and rifle pressures. The chamber and not the cartridge is the limiting factor in the ability to withstand pressure.

[lar45]

Shotgun= smooth bore. Except for the exemption for rifled slug barrels.

The Taurus Judge fires 45 Colt and 410 shotshells, but the barrel is rifled so it's a handgun.

If you want to build an over 50cal rifle, you ask the ATF before you build it.

[Jedman]

I can see we are all in the same boat. No one really understands the law.

Jedman

[GhostHawk]

They don't want us using 20 or 25mm rifles for sporting purposes, or any other purpose for that matter.

IMO the big difference between shotgun, rifled or otherwise, and a larger than .50 rifle is range. Even the .50bmg in a good rifle can shoot pretty accurately for a long long ways. No shotgun slug can match it, or even get into the same ballpark. Rifled or otherwise.

If you had a 25mm sniper rifle built you could in theory hit a car sized target at a range over a mile pretty consistently. This is what they are afraid of. Shotguns don't scare them. Over .50 caliber destructive devices do.

The other point that crossed my mind is this.

Pretty hard to make a good exploding projectile for under .50. Yes WWII aircraft had .50 AP incendary rounds. But not HE.

20, 25, 30mm cannons (Large rifles) all had good HE explosive shells. They do not want the farmers in Montana blowing up the FBI's cars a mile or more away from where their target lives. Actually I think just the thought of it would have them all wearing depends adult diapers.

[RED BEAR]

Well there are a lot of rifles that do not handle 35000 psi. The 45/70 44/40 are just two i have brass 12 gauge shells that i can load slugs in if i shoot them in a single shot gun how is that any different than say a 45/70? I do agree that sporting can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Bump stocks used to be legal came with letter from batfe stating that how well did that work out. I can understand that a shotgun and a rifle are different to me. Are they really different to a bureaucrat that knows nothing about fire arms . I have read an article in cartridges of the world where the author had a 20 gauge slug gun made for big game and i defy anyone to tell the difference between that gun and a rifle. i am building a double rifle in 45/70 out of an old double barrel shotgun so is it still a shotgun or only a shotgun without the barrel inserts. All i am saying if you get an anti gunner in white house and his people in batfe you don't think t he exemptions could change whats legal today may not be tomorrow. The 2nd amendment applying to individuals was a 5 to 4 discussion it would only take one vote to change to end that.

[kenton]

check this link, Part (a), Section 4, Subsection (B)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Got it from this thread
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/12-ga-hell-126971/

[AllanD]

As a note: in WW2 The Germans fielded an explosive projectile 12.5mm MachineCannon, but they had production difficulties beyond the fact that bombs kept falling into their factories...



They don't want us using 20 or 25mm rifles for sporting purposes, or any other purpose for that matter.

IMO the big difference between shotgun, rifled or otherwise, and a larger than .50 rifle is range. Even the .50bmg in a good rifle can shoot pretty accurately for a long long ways. No shotgun slug can match it, or even get into the same ballpark. Rifled or otherwise.

If you had a 25mm sniper rifle built you could in theory hit a car sized target at a range over a mile pretty consistently. This is what they are afraid of. Shotguns don't scare them. Over .50 caliber destructive devices do.

The other point that crossed my mind is this.

Pretty hard to make a good exploding projectile for under .50. Yes WWII aircraft had .50 AP incendary rounds. But not HE.

20, 25, 30mm cannons (Large rifles) all had good HE explosive shells. They do not want the farmers in Montana blowing up the FBI's cars a mile or more away from where their target lives. Actually I think just the thought of it would have them all wearing depends adult diapers.

[GregLaROCHE]

To me it used to be simple. A shotgun was smooth bore. Now with rifled shotgun barrels and all the new slugs that are being developed, the line between a shotgun and rifle is getting pretty thin. It will only take one accident at a long distance, where it is shotgun only hunting, to end all hunting in that area and others.

[RED BEAR]

Kenton that is my point exactly it is dependent on how the attorney general see's it. If you look at section 5 thats my definition of a shotgun. Section 7 is my definition of a rifle . Now explain how a slug gun fits section 5 and not section 7. You can see just how much discretion is given the attorney general to decide what is and is not legal. The only reason they dont go after shotguns is the uproar it would cause. But don't count on it staying that way . In the climate today can you really say that a dem president's attorney general wouldn't use his power to ban all he could. For those who say its the pressure or you can look at a barrels thickness you will note that these are nowhere in the definition it is pretty much based on rifling in a barrel. As far as accuracy if you look at the 20 gauge shotgun that was made for cartridges of the world author it is plane to see it is very accurate to long ranges as he uses it for a big game rifle. It actually uses hand loaded shotgun shells loaded to very high pressure for a shotgun shell.

[WRideout]

FWIW, in my career as an environmental scientist (don't judge me) One of the first things I discovered was that the legal definition of a "solid waste" was a "solid or liquid that....." Regulations enacted by a Federal agency can say anything they want, as long as it is officially defined.

Wayne

[Texas by God]

500 linebaugh is .510"Linebaugh made a .577 Ruger Redhawk with Batf permission. Technically he would need for that .510" .500 Linebaugh as well. My earlier post left out shotguns; under 1" for shot shells, past that it must be muzzleloading. The same with rifled bores; over 1" must be muzzleloading like a blackpowder cannon.

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[RED BEAR]

My point was that any permission given can be taken away. Items are only exempt at the good graces of government. Anything a bureaucrat gives can be taken away. There are laws on books that can be twisted to outlaw most guns. Liberal judges have been pulling rulings out of thin air for a long time. Not long ago justice sotomayor said she realized her dissent didn't follow the law but she didn't care she felt it was right. Now with this type of thinking tell me what rights are guaranteed?

[David2011]

I can see we are all in the same boat. No one really understands the law.

Jedman

I must be in a different boat.

Repeating myself, this is directly from the BATFE:

From page 39 of "The 2014 edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide." (https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download)

"Shotgun. A weapon designed or re-designed, made or remade, and intend-ed to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or re-made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

I have no trouble at all understanding the law. I recognize that the BATFE does provide an exception for rifled slug guns that fire a fixed shotgun shell.

[RED BEAR]

The law is the law and any exceptions are at the governments whim and can be taken away at any time. Just ask the people who bought bump stocks what there batfe compliance letter is worth.

[Ramson222]

The .950 JDJ rifle is the largest sporting use caliber allowed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROd1_S-4c6Q essentially its a modern 4 bore rifle. I would love to shoot it at least once, wold even consider purchasing if my wallet allowed it.

[lar45]

Linebaugh made a .577 Ruger Redhawk with Batf permission. Technically he would need for that .510" .500 Linebaugh as well.

No he wouldn't, because the "Bore" diameter is .500" It's not talking about bullet diameter.
241752

" Rifled bores may be described by the bore diameter (the diameter across the lands or high points in the rifling), or by groove diameter (the diameter across the grooves or low points in the rifling). Differences in naming conventions for cartridges can cause confusion; for example, the projectiles of the .303 British are actually slightly larger in diameter than the projectiles of the .308 Winchester, because the ".303" refers to the bore diameter in inches (bullet is .312), while the ".308" refers to the bullet diameter in inches "

241750 241751
http://mcgowenbarrel.com/bore-groove/

[sw282]

Does this mean l can't hunt with Great Great Great Great Granpappy's Joseph Manton ''FOUR BORE'' Sporting rifle? :-(

[frkelly74]

I read a book once where the character was said to be using a 30/06 shotgun . The conclusion I draw is that not everyone Knows the difference. Some of those people may be formulating the regulations that we are expected to follow.

[Walks]

I think I saw something this past week that said;

All inline MuzzleLoaders using a 209 primers will now require a 4473. Nothing about waiting periods in those states requiring a wait for longguns.

Gonna be a lot of confusion.

[RED BEAR]

Going to be a lot of confusion. Welcome to the federal government.

[Texas by God]

Thanks, lar 45. I see what you mean. A few years ago, Taurus was going to bring out a judge revolver in 28 gauge. Batf put the skids on that one.

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[Mal Paso]

Some years ago a fellow built a 1 gauge shotgun that used brass shells and slugs. I searched for it but couldn't find it. I think OSHA put a stop to that.

[Texas by God]

Some years ago a fellow built a 1 gauge shotgun that used brass shells and slugs. I searched for it but couldn't find it. I think OSHA put a stop to that.

A ONE pound ball! Woo-hoo!

[M-Tecs]

I think I saw something this past week that said;

All inline MuzzleLoaders using a 209 primers will now require a 4473. Nothing about waiting periods in those states requiring a wait for longguns.

Gonna be a lot of confusion.


That was incorrect information.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?381844-ATF-Annual-inspection-reveals-new-regulation-on-inlne-muzzleloaders&p=4647008#post4647008

[Dieselhorses]

Is this too big?


242195

[RED BEAR]

That looks bout right not sure bout a holster.

[Dieselhorses]

That looks bout right not sure bout a holster.


Could you imagine the press to reload for that?

[rrob692326]

Sporting arms cartridges may get an exemption such as my .585 Hubel. Wish I could post a few pics of the boolits as I think some of you would get a kick out of seeing my cast 780 grain and 1150 grain boolits. I can't seem to get the thing to load the pictures here. Great fun to use somersaulting pigs runnng down hill in Pahala, sometimes the vault 8 feet in the air if you hit them right.

[FerricOxide]

The .950 JDJ is the largest legal sporting caliber.

[cas]

Handguns get no sporting exemptions. Years back there were some videos going around the forums of someone with a "big" Encore pistol. Then the videos faded away, I suppose enough people tipped him off that he shouldn't advertise his NFA violation quite so loudly. :D