Quick question for Rough Rider owners

[fatelk]

I have a quick question for you all. Take your Rough Rider revolver and carefully cock the hammer back. Pull it back slowly and only far enough to cock it. Is the cylinder fully rotated into position and latched?

Mine is not quite fully rotated at that point. It is able to fire, though, and when the hammer drops the cylinder clicks into position and the bullet inevitably keyholes. Cock it with authority, all the way back, and it locks and fires fine.

This seems like a bit of a timing problem to me. In my way of thinking you should never be able to pull the trigger and drop the hammer unless the cylinder is in position and locked. I'm told this is normal though, because the manual says "Pull the hammer all the way back with a smooth stroke until it stops, then allow the hammer to move forward (it will move slightly) until the trigger engages in the hammer at full cock."

It's not a big deal. It's a cheap gun and I can live with it either way. I'm just curious as to whether this is by design or if mine has a timing problem.

[onelight]

Sounds like a problem to me the cylinder should be locked when it clicks in at full cock.

[Tracy]

Timing problem. The hand (part that rotates the cylinder) is a bit short.

[fatelk]

That's the obvious assumption, but if I understand correctly they're saying that it's a normal part of the design and they're all like that. That's why I asked if any other Rough Rider owners could take a look.

[onelight]

That's the obvious assumption, but if I understand correctly they're saying that it's a normal part of the design and they're all like that. That's why I asked if any other Rough Rider owners could take a look.
Not an assumption that is one of the basic conditions you check for on a revolver and correct if found. I returned a new bearcat for that reason and it was corrected. At best it is a lousy shooter at worst it is dangerous to others on the firing line from spiting lead out the sides.

[fatelk]

You’re missing my point completely. I know about timing and what any quality revolver should be.

This Rough Rider is a very cheap gun. It is less than a year old with no sign of any wear on the parts in question. A Taurus phone rep told me there’s nothing wrong with it, that it’s designed that way because the manual clearly indicates you must pull the hammer completely back before firing.

SO, either the rep is clueless or the design is junk. That’s why I wanted actual confirmation one way or the other from other Rough Rider owners. If everyone reports back that theirs work properly, then mine is defective and I’ll send it in. If everyone reports that theirs do the same thing, the the design is junk and I won’t bother.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I sold a bunch of these when I was a dealer, prior to 2012. Never had any complaints or got one back. I understand that the company has changed hands, and have not handled a current specimen, but will make a couple of general gunsmithing observations. It is the nature of the design that the hammer must be fully cocked, and done so firmly. Sneaking up on the full cock notch doesn't give the cylinder the full amount of inertia in turning that the design, and all single actions, require to function reliably. Timing single actions is just a bit tricky, and as noted in an earlier post, the hand may be a bit short but as you have observed does function properly with a firm cocking motion. You are manipulating it to malfunction. If it locks up as it should when it's cocked as it should be it's not defective.

DG

[Buzz Krumhunger]

I just checked the RR 22 Magnum I carry in my truck to shoot trapped hogs with. The cylinder bolt locks the cylinder up solidly at full cock no matter how slowly I cock it.

They’re not very good guns but seem good enough for what I’m doing with mine, and I don’t worry much about it suffering cosmetic damage.

;)

[Texas by God]

Mine carries up correctly when you cock it but is horribly inaccurate as I have whined about to - everyone [emoji52]

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[fatelk]

I don't think I was necessarily manipulating it to malfunction. I first noticed the issue when I was carefully shooting from sandbags for accuracy. It was keyholing badly and I realized that the way I was cocking it wasn't locking the cylinder. If I consciously cock it back with authority it's fine.

Out of six single action revolvers, the only other one I have that does this at all is an old Italian made '58 Remington cap and ball, and it only ever-so-slightly. I have to cock it very, very carefully to get it to not lock. This Rough Rider is not even close, nowhere near. It's very easy to get it to not lock when I'm shooting carefully from a bench. I have to change my habits to make sure I'm not gentle when cocking it. Here's a photo of the cylinder index when fully cocked without pulling the hammer fully rearward:

241456

It's really not that big of a deal to me. It was a cheap gun and I still don't hate it. I've spent more on less before. If this is just how it is I can live with it. It's less than a year old and still under warranty, but I'm not going to bother sending it in. They want half the value of the gun just to look at it.

[429421Cowboy]

I'd say it looks like a good excuse to get in line for a Ruger Wrangler!

[fatelk]

I just bought one last weekend. So far I like it a lot. It locks up solid. For an inexpensive revolver I think it has great potential.

I’d better be careful not to speak too soon though. I was very happy with the Rough Rider until the barrel came loose. If that hadn’t happened I’d probably still be singing it’s praises. Well, that and the timing thing. It’s pretty accurate for such a cheap gun.

[onelight]

I don't think I was necessarily manipulating it to malfunction. I first noticed the issue when I was carefully shooting from sandbags for accuracy. It was keyholing badly and I realized that the way I was cocking it wasn't locking the cylinder. If I consciously cock it back with authority it's fine.

Out of six single action revolvers, the only other one I have that does this at all is an old Italian made '58 Remington cap and ball, and it only ever-so-slightly. I have to cock it very, very carefully to get it to not lock. This Rough Rider is not even close, nowhere near. It's very easy to get it to not lock when I'm shooting carefully from a bench. I have to change my habits to make sure I'm not gentle when cocking it. Here's a photo of the cylinder index when fully cocked without pulling the hammer fully rearward:

241456

It's really not that big of a deal to me. It was a cheap gun and I still don't hate it. I've spent more on less before. If this is just how it is I can live with it. It's less than a year old and still under warranty, but I'm not going to bother sending it in. They want half the value of the gun just to look at it.
If they will sell parts you might be able to buy another hand and fix it yourself I don’t mind experimenting if I can replace a part it I mess it up.[smilie=b:
I stretched the hand on a cap & ball revolver kit to correct the timing.

[BigAlofPa.]

I have 3 of them. I always pull the hammer all the way back before firing. I just got this one. It has adjustable sights too.
241470

[fatelk]

Wow, what a hog-leg! I like it. My very first revolver was a Dan Wesson .357 mag with a 15" barrel. I sure wish I had kept that one. Out of curiosity, do all 3 of yours index completely as you cock them, if you don't pull all the way back?

As I sit here and play with it, I realize that under most all conditions it cocks and indexes fine. It's pretty natural to pull through when cocking. If I just train myself to never be overly gentle with it I think I'd never notice. If this is just how it is I can live with it. If it was a nicer gun I'd really want it to be right, but I'm not going to worry about this one. It doesn't seem to shave lead. The forcing cone on these is cavernous so that probably makes the difference.

I looked on their site and they do sell parts, but not hands. I'll bet they won't sell one because it has to be fit to the gun. I looked and measured how much it moves past full cock before the cylinder latches, and the hand would need to be quite a bit longer. A few thousandths wouldn't do it, more like at least 30 or 40 thousandths. I don't mind tinkering. This might just be a future project. It shoots fine as is for now, but I still don't think it's quite right.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I’ve got a Single Action that doesn’t lock up all the time, I thought the hand was too short. My local gunsmith pointed out the cylinder was rubbing on the barrel. The excessive drag was responsible for the cylinder not fully rotating to lock the bolt into the notch at the top dead center position.

[onelight]

I’ve got a Single Action that doesn’t lock up all the time, I thought the hand was too short. My local gunsmith pointed out the cylinder was rubbing on the barrel. The excessive drag was responsible for the cylinder not fully rotating to lock the bolt into the notch at the top dead center position.
Does it have excessive end play in the cylinder or not enough gap from the factory?
Curious what he recommended to fix it.

[BigAlofPa.]

I checked the advance at partail cock. It does not advance all the way. Just a partial advance. Checked on all my S/A revolvers and my wives and sons. None do. Different brands including the Heritage.

[fatelk]

I meant full cock, but without pulling the hammer past to where it contacts the frame. Slowly cocking to where the sear engages fully and you can pull the trigger and fire.

[fatelk]

I’ve got a Single Action that doesn’t lock up all the time, I thought the hand was too short. My local gunsmith pointed out the cylinder was rubbing on the barrel. The excessive drag was responsible for the cylinder not fully rotating to lock the bolt into the notch at the top dead center position.

That's another issue with this Rough Rider. It has no cylinder gap, just lots of end shake. The cylinder rubs on the barrel. The magnum cylinder is exactly the same. It spins pretty free even though it rubs. I put two .004" endshake bearings in it, and it tightened it up to right where it should be.

I feel like a bit of a fool. I was in a hurry when I bought it, brand new at a gun show, and it was zip-tied. I didn't take time to check basic things like cylinder index and endshake. It was new in box with a dozen others just like it; I just figured it must be OK. Never again.

I know there are a lot of Rough Rider fans who will insist that they are just as good as a Single Six. Reality though is that they are slapped together as fast as possible by low skilled workers, using the cheapest materials, with little or no QC. If you get a good one they're still a good value for the money, but otherwise...

[BigAlofPa.]

Oh no they are not as good as a single six. Just a range toy to have a little fun with. When im in the woods where i may need a gun to save my life or my family i have my ruger super blackhawk with. And my 10mm 1911. An economy gun is what it is. Have fun with it don't sweat it. Shot the long one today ran it with the mag cyl and the lr had fun. Hit some clays i sat up at 25 yards free standing. I was worried about the grip not being enough. But it works for me.

[fatelk]

It sounds like we're on the same page, for sure. As many little problems as this Rough Rider has, I still enjoy tinkering with it, and I still think I can get it put together right to make a nice accurate little range toy. I wouldn't want to rely on one for protection, but it would certainly be better than nothing.

[fatelk]

I checked the advance at partail cock. It does not advance all the way. Just a partial advance. Checked on all my S/A revolvers and my wives and sons. None do. Different brands including the Heritage.

I was wondering if you could indulge my curiosity on this; We might be talking about different things. On every SA revolver you checked, none of the cylinders were fully indexed and locked when the hammer was carefully fully cocked?

This is just academic for me at this point. I am just curious, not trying to knock Heritage. It’s just that I have seven single actions available to check, the RR, the new Wrangler, and five different Italians (Ubertis and Piettas). Of those, the RR is not close, one old Uberti is only off by a hair, and the other five are impossible to cock the hammer without the cylinder being fully indexed and locked.

I’m really just curious as to how common it is.

[Texas by God]

Mine carries up correctly when you cock it but is horribly inaccurate as I have whined about to - everyone [emoji52]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using TapatalkThe proof that I got THE LEMON of the bunch. At least it fires every time. I'm not sending it back, myself or my nephew will set the barrel back or rebarrel the thing. It's way down the list.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/306dd49aec86c837cca170110e7f2ea9.jpg

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[Love Life]

My rough rider shot a foot to the left. I shot 22 shorts out of it 90% of the time. Yeah, it was a piece ****.

[fatelk]

I've almost come to the decision to send mine in for repair. I didn't want to spend the money to ship it, seemed like throwing good money after bad, but my boss suggested to use the company shipping discount (as long as I pay for it). I calculated that with that discount it will be less than $20 for UPS 1-day. I fixed the loose barrel thing, but this timing thing bugs me, being as far off as it is, and then there's the fact that the cylinder rubs on the barrel. These things just can't be right, ever for a cheap gun. Hopefully it will work right when it comes back.

You do a search online and find a lot of issues like this, but for the most part people really seem to like their Rough Riders. They must make a lot of good ones too. I saw a video somewhere (maybe on here) of a Heritage Arms factory tour and how they were made. It was a real fast paced production. The guy doing the "test firing" was fanning them off in a big hurry, so I imagine that quality control is almost nonexistent, and a lot of problems slip through. More and more companies nowadays practice what some call "customer QC". The only real QC is the stuff that comes back. A lot of people won't go to the trouble of returning something for warranty work; instead they'll just toss it in a box in the attic, or in the trash.

[Love Life]

I pawned mine for $75

[dubber123]

I pawned mine for $75

You heartless SOB :)

[fatelk]

Well, it’s on it way back to Florida. I told them about the loose barrel (which I fixed), the timing problem, the keyholing, and the lack of cylinder gap. We’ll see what I get back.

Every manufacturer has lemons once in a while. I soured on Heritage when this one started having troubles but I’ll give them a chance to fix it. A lot of people seem to really like them. I hope I didn’t throw good money after bad.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My gunsmith applied a shim between the cylinder base pin bushing and the frame. I can’t get the shim back in. I’m planning on taking this gun to a match next weekend, but I’m thinking it won’t make it through the match. There will be several other Colt’s in my gun cart to draw from.


Does it have excessive end play in the cylinder or not enough gap from the factory?
Curious what he recommended to fix it.

[onelight]

My gunsmith applied a shim between the cylinder base pin bushing and the frame. I can’t get the shim back in. I’m planning on taking this gun to a match next weekend, but I’m thinking it won’t make it through the match. There will be several other Colt’s in my gun cart to draw from.

Thanks for the reply.

[Texas by God]

I gave mine to my nephew. He's going to gunsmith school so I gave him "projects and practice pieces". He will set back the barrel, cut a more normal forcing cone, and pin the barrel. And then we'll see where it goes from there.

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[Harter66]

Mines a 17' . I haven't shot it very much but Ive been shooting wasps with Dad's and snake shot . Mine requires "the 4 Clicks of quality" (or whatever you want to call it) . The first one unlocks the bolt , the 2nd sets the half cock for free spin of the cylinder , 3rd returns the trigger and sets it , the 4th click drops the bolt with the cylinder in position . However if I stop before the last click after the trigger set click it is exactly as you describe except that it doesn't clock , dry fired anyway , into the bolt lock . Never paid any attention to it as it's as mentioned brand new and hardly been shot so everything is still tight and stiff . Dad's has a lot more through it and it is much smoother and more free . I'll check it out next time I go wasp whacking .

[jimb16]

The proof that I got THE LEMON of the bunch. At least it fires every time. I'm not sending it back, myself or my nephew will set the barrel back or rebarrel the thing. It's way down the list.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/306dd49aec86c837cca170110e7f2ea9.jpg

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That is how mine shot with keyholed bullets at 25 feet. I sent it back and they replaced the barrel. Now it shoots like your single six! They even sent me a factory test target back with it. Service was a little slow, but the results were worth the wait.

[fatelk]

Thank you, that's interesting. I haven't heard back from Heritage (Taurus) yet, and I'm curious as to what they say. Of my three problems, I already fixed one myself (loose barrel). The cylinder just ever-so-barely touched the barrel, and spun free, so they might say that's "in spec", and the instructions say to cock the hammer fully before shooting, so they may call that "in spec" too. I may have thrown good money after bad. I also can be pessimistic. Actually I had a fourth complaint- keyholing sometimes even when I was careful to make sure the cylinder fully indexed. I'm curious to see what they have to say.

It's not a big deal. It was a cheap gun and you get what you pay for.

Added: jimb16, I didn't see your post until I posted. I'm glad to hear that they fixed it right for you. Hopefully mine comes back working well too!

[fatelk]

I just got the Rough Rider back today. If they would have let me talk to someone who knew something before sending it in, it would have saved my money and their time. Apparently the seriously out-of-time cylinder and complete lack of cylinder gap are normal design features for these guns.

The repair sheet that came back with the gun reads:
Cylinder Timing - Adjusted
Cylinder Gap - NPF
Barrel - Replaced Existing
Cylinder Alignment - Adjusted
Barrel Forcing Cone - Adjusted

The timing was no better than it was when it left, so I don't know what they did to adjust it. At this point I have to assume that it's just a part of the design that you can fire it when the cylinder isn't fully indexed.
I also have to assume that severe endshake is normal for these too. I assume that NPF mustr mean No Problem Found, but the cylinder literally touches the barrel, and the front bearing surface of the cylinder does not touch the frame at all.
I don't know what they did to align the cylinder or adjust the forcing cone, or why they replaced the barrel. I guess I'll have to get to the range and see how it shoots.

You get what you pay for. It is a functional revolver, and I suppose a decent value if you don't expect much. I guess the old rules for revolvers such as timing and cylinder gap don't apply to this design. I just wish they had told me that before I bothered to send it in.

I've been shooting the Ruger Wrangler a bit now, and it's solid as a rock. Things like cylinder gap and timing are absolutely perfect on it. For only $60 more, the Ruger is far and away better quality, and a far, far, far better value, in my humble opinion.

[Texas by God]

I'm still looking for the Wrangler to show up at LGS's. My Single Six is fixing to get the springs and polishing it deserves.

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[Argentino]

The problem regarding a short hand is not uncommon to other brands as well; I have seen it in some old Colts that were not worn; pulling the hammer slowly, it will cock but the cylinder stop would not reach its cylinder notch completely. The hand can be taken out and stretched a little to correct this, but it takes a more knowledgeable person than me to do it.

[KCSO]

A fellow stopped in the shop to get some leather to make a holster for his Rough Rider. I told him to just use toilet paper as that is what you put a in! Got no use for them they are a just go bang gun one step below a Hi Point.

[mac60]

Fatelk - I thought I'd chime in. I have one that's never been to the range - it's new in the box. I did as you requested and got the same results as you. I did notice this with both cylinders (WMR and LR). Also, if I brought the hammer to full cock slowly - leaving it "not locked in" and pulled the trigger and held it back, the cylinder was locked up tight.

[fatelk]

Thank you. Apparently that’s standard for the design. It seems to work fine as long as you cock it with authority. Now that I know that’s how it’s supposed to be I won’t let it bother me.

To be honest I probably won’t shoot it that much, now that I have the Ruger.

[mac60]

You're welcome. Ok then, mine behaves just like your's. I bought the thing on a whim - just to see what all the hoopla was about. I haven't done anything with it yet - it'll hit a soda can at about 20' or so. The first Wrangler I see for sale will come home with me. Can't have too many .22's right?:Fire:

[fatelk]

The first Wrangler I see for sale will come home with me. Can't have too many .22's right?

I sure seem to be accumulating them myself! I know some folks look down their nose at the little .22, and I know lots of guys can load .38s and whatnot for the same cost, but sometimes an afternoon of shooting .22s is just plain fun!

Here's a photo of something that surprised me a little when I got this gun back. As you can see, the face of the cylinder rides directly on the breach end of the barrel. The front bearing surface isn't even touching the frame. This is just so wrong...243009

I'm not going to bother asking Heritage about it. I have a couple cylinder bearing shims that should tighten it up nicely. I'm finding that the usual rules for revolvers don't apply to these guns.

[Texas by God]

Even the loathed RG single action .22 was better & the FIE Buffalo Scout l had was Much better than my HRR. Just sayin'.

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[mac60]

I sure seem to be accumulating them myself! I know some folks look down their nose at the little .22, and I know lots of guys can load .38s and whatnot for the same cost, but sometimes an afternoon of shooting .22s is just plain fun!

Here's a photo of something that surprised me a little when I got this gun back. As you can see, the face of the cylinder rides directly on the breach end of the barrel. The front bearing surface isn't even touching the frame. This is just so wrong...243009

I'm not going to bother asking Heritage about it. I have a couple cylinder bearing shims that should tighten it up nicely. I'm finding that the usual rules for revolvers don't apply to these guns.

Well, it IS called the "Rough" Rider.:kidding: Seriously, I feel your frustration. The first thing Taurus should have done after they took over should have been to tighten up a little.

[onelight]

I sure seem to be accumulating them myself! I know some folks look down their nose at the little .22, and I know lots of guys can load .38s and whatnot for the same cost, but sometimes an afternoon of shooting .22s is just plain fun!

Here's a photo of something that surprised me a little when I got this gun back. As you can see, the face of the cylinder rides directly on the breach end of the barrel. The front bearing surface isn't even touching the frame. This is just so wrong...243009

I'm not going to bother asking Heritage about it. I have a couple cylinder bearing shims that should tighten it up nicely. I'm finding that the usual rules for revolvers don't apply to these guns.
I’m with you on the 22s lots of fun.
When you get that cylinder shimmed it may help the timing a bit to if the hand is turning the cylinder and not pushing it forward into the barrel.;-)

[fatelk]

I put two .004" shims in front of the cylinder, tightened it up very well. I just got back from the range and it shot very well. I guess I won't hate it now, so long as it doesn't fall apart again. I posted targets on the Ruger Wrangler thread in the rimfire section.

[jimb16]

Looking at those targets, the RR did every bit as well as any of the others and better than most. Like I said, after they replaced the bad barrel on mine, it shot very well. I don't see any sign of key-holing from yours now. Mine doesn't either now.

[onelight]

I put two .004" shims in front of the cylinder, tightened it up very well. I just got back from the range and it shot very well. I guess I won't hate it now, so long as it doesn't fall apart again. I posted targets on the Ruger Wrangler thread in the rimfire section.
Good job ! Glad you got it going.
I gotta confess every time I read your post on the repaired RR I can’t help but laugh when I read
“ just so wrong “ you are so right. Hard to believe they returned it like that.

[fatelk]

Yea, that one surprised me more than anything else. I just couldn't believe that they consider it normal and acceptable for the cylinder face to ride on the barrel like that. I just happened to have some cylinder bearing shims and they fit OK. The only thing I could think of was to super-glue them to the frame, but super-glue doesn't hold up to well in that kind of application. I know they'll fall out the next time I remove the cylinder to clean the barrel. It's not that bad of a workaround for a cheap gun that shoots well. I'm curious as to how it's going to hold up long term.

The odd thing is that the magnum cylinder has a ten thousandths shorter front bearing than the standard cylinder, so I'd need to use a couple more bearings to effectively use it. Not that I ever see myself using it much, at all. For me, .22 mag doesn't seem terribly useful. If I want a more powerful gun than .22lr, I already have plenty to choose from. As to cost, I can load .44 mag cheaper than buying .22 mag. I'm sure it's a useful round to some, but it's just not terribly practical for me.

Added: no, no sign of key-holing at all, so far!

[BigAlofPa.]

Happy to hear you got it sorted.

[FerricOxide]

Huh a friends rough rider doesn't have that much cylinder rattle. His is pretty **** accurate for a $130 gun, 2" groups at 15 yards with cheap bulk 22lr. I was pretty surprised when I got to handle it for the first time, it was better than I expected aside from the grips being huge.