Brass/bronze frame '66 Winchrester

[Captain*Kirk]

I have acquired a Navy Arms Winchester '66 with 24" Bbl and have all the components on hand to load up some 200gr RNFP cast bullets using Unique. I will be using Winchester WLP primers and new Starline brass.
I'm getting some conflicting data on loads for this, however. Some are recommending starting loads at around 5.0gr (in the 7xx-fps range at 5600 CUP) and others as high as 8.6gr in the 11xxfps range at 12,500 CUP. The problem is, most of these loads reference the Winchester '73, (NOT the '66) which has the barrel threading into a steel receiver...not brass. Nowhere have I been able to find any definitive max load info based on a brass receiver.
Is it safe to assume (there's that word again!) that any published .44-40 reload data is safe for this gun, or am I going to destroy this thing unless I shoot minimum pressure loads?
Thanks!

[1Hawkeye]

My old Lyman manual shows 8.3 grs of unique with a 200 gr as factory equivalent and I have used it in original 73's,92's,and uberti Henry reproductions. If you are looking to cast your own Arsenal #432-210 is a great mold for the.44-40.

[Captain*Kirk]

Thanks, good to know.
Here is the only info I've found online:

http://www.manualsdir.com/manuals/715108/uberti-1866-yellowboy-rifle.html

I'm assuming this rifle was built by Uberti. All they mention is using factory rounds (which as noted in the post above, should be equivalent to 8.3 grains of Unique)

[Walks]

I load 7.5gr of Unique under a Lyman #427666 sized .428dia cast of 50/50 - COWW/#2. all 4 of my Uberti .44-40's measure .427 bore Diameter. Just Lucky I guess. But then all are over 25yrs old.

[oldred]

FWIW the receiver is bronze (sometimes called "gunmetal") instead of brass but whatever your concerns the receiver material is not the weak point, that toggle link action is weaker than the bronze receiver. Loads safe for that action will be safe in either the steel or bronze frame (we all call them brass but I guess it really doesn't matter much), exceeding the safe limits of that toggle link action will not be safe in either a bronze or steel action so I wouldn't worry about the bronze/brass frame.

[Butler Ford]

A bit off topic but a lesson learned, the '66 does not have the lever safety and can be fired out of battery. It stings the hand when this happens.

[Norske]

The receiver may be admiralty bronze, which is stronger than many mild steels. Henry has been reported to use admiralty for their "brass" frames.

[indian joe]

FWIW the receiver is bronze (sometimes called "gunmetal") instead of brass but whatever your concerns the receiver material is not the weak point, that toggle link action is weaker than the bronze receiver. Loads safe for that action will be safe in either the steel or bronze frame (we all call them brass but I guess it really doesn't matter much), exceeding the safe limits of that toggle link action will not be safe in either a bronze or steel action so I wouldn't worry about the bronze/brass frame.

Dont mean to pick a fight but I disagree (big time!!) - have seen a 44/40 brass uberti frame stretched with 92 level loads - no damage to the toggle system at all - the frame stretched and then bolt bound up in the action body - had the same thing happen with a 22magnum 66 - I was stripping it down - had the sideplates off - stock wouldnt come loose - I gave the point of the comb a bump with the heel of my hand down and back enough to loosen it - when it went back together the bolt was binding in the action body - had been smooth as silk before.

[indian joe]

A bit off topic but a lesson learned, the '66 does not have the lever safety and can be fired out of battery. It stings the hand when this happens.

My Uberti 66 has the lever safety same as my son's and a couple of others locally - Uberti changed at some point and left it off but early ones had it.

[M-Tecs]

Not a 1866 but they do make the 1873 in 44 Mag. https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1873-carbine-44-mag-19-rnd-barrel.html with the original toggle link design. Italian firearms manufacturers are required by law to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy. These proof loads are max plus 30% so for a 44 mag 36,000 x 1.3 = 46,800.

[Captain*Kirk]

Not a 1866 but they do make the 1873 in 44 Mag. https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1873-carbine-44-mag-19-rnd-barrel.html with the original toggle link design. Italian firearms manufacturers are required by law to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy. These proof loads are max plus 30% so for a 44 mag 36,000 x 1.3 = 46,800.

Yes, but the '73 is a steel receiver gun like the later Winchesters.

[Captain*Kirk]

A bit off topic but a lesson learned, the '66 does not have the lever safety and can be fired out of battery. It stings the hand when this happens.

Mine has the lever safety. Somebody removed the lever latch, but the safety still functions fine.

[Captain*Kirk]

... have seen a 44/40 brass uberti frame stretched with 92 level loads -

Can you be a bit more specific WRT velocity/PSI/CUP info?

[gnoahhh]

When it's all said and done, why not just stick with black powder equivalent loads and call it a day? Is there a pressing need to squeeze a couple hundred extra fps out of it?

[Captain*Kirk]

When it's all said and done, why not just stick with black powder equivalent loads and call it a day? Is there a pressing need to squeeze a couple hundred extra fps out of it?

That was never my intent. I've been trying to find BP equivalent load data but seems most don't like to compare apples to oranges. There is smokeless data out there 3 ways to Sunday but very little pressure data for BP loads. If you have any, feel free to share it!

[M-Tecs]

Yes, but the '73 is a steel receiver gun like the later Winchesters.

Understood. I was not clear in my comment. I was not addressing the strength difference between the different frame materials. The toggle link system between the 66 and 73 are the same. My point is that the toggle link apparently is stronger than most (including myself) believe. Nothing more nothing less. I have an original and two copy 73's and I have zero interest in pushing them above 44/40 & 45 Colt level let alone 44 Mag levels.

[Captain*Kirk]

Understood. I was not clear in my comment. I was not addressing the strength difference between the different frame materials. The toggle link system between the 66 and 73 are the same.

Understood. And yes, the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook makes it clear that the toggle IS the weak link in the '73, but did not refer to the '66 in that category, which left me wondering.



My point is that the toggle link apparently is stronger than most (including myself) believe. Nothing more nothing less. I have an original and two copy 73's and I have zero interest in pushing them above 44/40 & 45 Colt level let alone 44 Mag levels.
Nor do I. I would be quite happy with a comparable smokeless load that was close to BP specs, as I do intend to load BPCR .44-40 sooner or later. But I've found very little data WRT pressures generated by the BPCR loads to compare to the smokeless loads I'm looking to create.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/black_powder.htm

44-40 WCF
Winchester brought about a family of cartridges in their new leveraction rifles in 1873...the 44-40 and the 38-40 (1874) shared the same case...and the small 32-20 was a new case all of it’s own(1881). Colt chambered it’s Single Actions for these rounds. Why Winchester took over 100 years to chamber their rifles for the 45 long Colt round has been a bone of contention and opinion for as long as it has been that way. Many of the opinions I have read make sense...the one I go with is that the 45 Colt was a proprietary and military round when it was first introduced and it was patented. By the time that patent was over the other Winchester chamberings were well established...also some real rifle rounds began to surface in leveractions. Marlin beat Winchester to the punch with the first 45-70 leveraction in 1881...it took the big W till 1886 and a new rifle to catch up with a 45-70 chambering of it’s own. Though Winchester did have some others like the 45-75...which was a shortened version of the big rifle round so it would cycle in the short actions of the 1876 leverguns.
The 44-40 was the most powerful of the trio...but not by much. The 38-40 was a very close second. Since the 38-40 was really a forty caliber and it’s loading was only 20 grains less in weight.
But I squeezed 35 grains P-Pyro into modern WW 44-40 cases and under a 200 grain bullet, jacketed and made by Winchester, I got 815 fps from a 7.5 inch single action and around 10500 psi...the R-Pyro load was close with the same charge and 800 fps and 9300 psi. I didn’t have a 44-40 rifle at the time to test them in...the BP load of 35 grains went 770 fps and around 8800psi.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?163604-Black-Powder-Pressure

[indian joe]

Can you be a bit more specific WRT velocity/PSI/CUP info?

Its a long time ago and I dont have specific info except that the guy had used the loads in a 92 without problems - I would guess something reasonably lively - 1600FPS maybe +

Despite the stories about gunmetal bronze being as strong as steel - I think it would be crazy to discharge a 44magnum level load in a brass frame Uberti.
The company made a lot of guns before they were brave enough to step up to the 44 magnum model - I think we should be at least as careful as they were.

I think at least the early ones were brass - it works more like brass rather than bronze - (had to do a tidy up on mine to get it to feed properly).

[indian joe]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/black_powder.htm

44-40 WCF
Winchester brought about a family of cartridges in their new leveraction rifles in 1873...the 44-40 and the 38-40 (1874) shared the same case...and the small 32-20 was a new case all of it’s own(1881). Colt chambered it’s Single Actions for these rounds. Why Winchester took over 100 years to chamber their rifles for the 45 long Colt round has been a bone of contention and opinion for as long as it has been that way. Many of the opinions I have read make sense...the one I go with is that the 45 Colt was a proprietary and military round when it was first introduced and it was patented. By the time that patent was over the other Winchester chamberings were well established...also some real rifle rounds began to surface in leveractions. Marlin beat Winchester to the punch with the first 45-70 leveraction in 1881...it took the big W till 1886 and a new rifle to catch up with a 45-70 chambering of it’s own. Though Winchester did have some others like the 45-75...which was a shortened version of the big rifle round so it would cycle in the short actions of the 1876 leverguns.
The 44-40 was the most powerful of the trio...but not by much. The 38-40 was a very close second. Since the 38-40 was really a forty caliber and it’s loading was only 20 grains less in weight.
But I squeezed 35 grains P-Pyro into modern WW 44-40 cases and under a 200 grain bullet, jacketed and made by Winchester, I got 815 fps from a 7.5 inch single action and around 10500 psi...the R-Pyro load was close with the same charge and 800 fps and 9300 psi. I didn’t have a 44-40 rifle at the time to test them in...the BP load of 35 grains went 770 fps and around 8800psi.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?163604-Black-Powder-Pressure

Interesting numbers - we could suppose that enough blackpowder to equal the pyro pressure would get us equal velocity (it'd be darn close anyway)

44/40 Blackpowder loads in a 24inch rifle will get up into the high 1300's with the 200grain boolit
my 45/75 with a 335grain has just touched 1500FPS a couple of times.