Group size

[flatsguide]

Given that most of the matches limit our BPCR to two piece stocks,exposed hammers and a weight limits that dictates barrel size/weight, what is the smallest size groups one can expect given optimum sights, loads, rifle and bench shooting technique. Basically removing the human and weather element from the equation. For sake of discussion.40 .45 caliber and say about a number 3 weight barrel. What are the smallest groups that you can reproduce with consistency at a 100 yards.
I’ll start by saying I can get consistent .875 or 7/8 inch groups at 100 yard PP of course. This is with a Browning .45-70.
Just trying to find out what is possible.
Thanks a Richard

[BrentD]

You are about there. Especially if those are 10-shot groups. There might be a few internet guns that do better I suppose :)

[Chill Wills]

What are the smallest groups that you can reproduce with consistency at a 100 yards.
I’ll start by saying I can get consistent .875 or 7/8 inch groups at 100 yard PP of course. This is with a Browning .45-70.
Just trying to find out what is possible.
Thanks a Richard

Those would be "wallet groups" for me. I never shoot at 100yds. 200meters is the shortest most often and then 300 to 500m. At 200m it is the rare group that goes 2" or less for me whether shooting PP or GG bullets.

I would guess but I don't know, the very best someone has shot becomes their standard in retelling about their ability to make accurate ammo. And that goes double if using the keyboard.

[flatsguide]

They are 5 shot groups Brent.
Richard

[BrentD]

They are 5 shot groups Brent.
Richard

That's still really good. You are really at the end of the line for equipment/load tuning. Now, when you miss, it's all the spotter's fault. :)

[beltfed]

241336
Hope this helps
To give an idea of what is possible
when conditions are right and the shooter
is also at peak of his game.
Have not attained such since.
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

I could also say this is my "wallet group".
beltfed/arnie

[Gunlaker]

I only shoot prone so cannot say exactly how small groups can get with these guns when removing the human element. Like Chills I never shoot at 100. I use either 200 metres or 300 yards for load testing. I have shot a few minute of angle ten shot groups at 200 but they are rare. I think I've done it at 300 yards maybe twice. I imagine the groups would be a little tighter from the bench, but I don't think by a lot, but then I am a poor bench shooter.

My definition of accuracy has changed a lot since I started shooting these rifles maybe 9 or so years ago. To me, in order to be a good rifle it has to be capable of winning a match. Nowadays I define this by shooting a lot at 300 yards on the reduced 600 yard target. If the rifle shoots a lot of targets that score 100, and they don't spread them all over the ten ring, then I think that's good. I think somewhere about between 1 and 1.25 minutes of vertical at that distance makes me confident in the rifle.

The best bench shooting I've done with black powder was with a CPA in .38-55 at 200 yards. I think this rifle is capable of minute of angle, or smaller, ten shot groups at that distance. In excellent conditions of course. Any amount of tricky wind and it all goes out the window. I also have a .38-50 Remington Hepburn that I think is in the same category but haven't shot it enough. These are very light recoiling rifles though.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Richard I would guess that you've probably got that rifle running about as good as it's going to get. Now the big trick will be to see if it will do it consistently, and on demand, and how will it hold up at longer ranges.
The only time I ever shoot my bpcr's at 100 is if I'm getting one ready to go hunting, then I shoot it with the barrel sights from field positions.
When working up a target load I am really happy to keep the groups at or below 2 moa for what ever distance being shot. That's about the size of the x ring on most targets, and about half the size needed for silhouette.
Frame that group, be proud of it and let the keyboard nay sayers go off in the woods someplace and practice their self procreationg :)

[flatsguide]

Nice shooting Arnie would love to be able to to as well in a match.
They just opened up a new range here in GreenevilleTN that will go to 300 yds when done. It opens on the 29th but the rangemaster was kind enough to let me shoot after we chatted a bit so I’m looking forward to shooting at 200 and 300. I tried loadswith my Dual Diameter bullets out of a mold that casts the bases a bit larger than I asked for so I have to bump up the case diameter at the mouth a bit to get the bullet with patch in so it feed a bit tight and needed the cramming tool for one stubborn load. Problem is when I choose the paper for a nice fit for the section that slips up in the bore the belteted section is much to big in diameter. I may turn the bases smaller in my lathe, the lathe has a collet system that I can dial into tenths so I think I can chuck the straight section of the bullet and skim off a couple of thousandths fro the base, anyway that’s the plan for now. This bullet is an elliptical nose with a smaller nose radius than Arnies , actually I copied Arnies design, thank you Arnie! It seems the DDPP of bullets of Arnies work pretty darn good as they seem to be less finicky to powder charge. I can equal the accuracy of the DD bullets with straight slicks but when the powder charge is a bit low the accuracy falls off to a greater degree. I’m fortunate to have found a good rifle that shoots straight slicks very very well. Other rifles with throats and freebore most likely would se a very marked increase in accuracy with Arnies DD type of bullet. I reall want to thank you guys because if it were not for you I’d still be struggling to find a good load, now with the Internet and boards like this,a guy can zero in on finding what works and does not pretty quick. I trying something new that I have not seen done before and so far it works, but have only tried five round this way so really found out that is worth pursuing further if it works or doesn’t I’ll post the idea and results so stay toned. Probably the ODG’s tried it before, so not too much new under the Sun.
Thanks for the help guys,
Richard
Tha

[Don McDowell]

You might want to try some thinner paper. I've been using the Seth Cole 55y on the larger diameter bullets, and liking what the target is telling me.

With the dual diameter bullets, I have some rifles that love em, and others that don't.

[flatsguide]

I have some seethe cole paper both white and yellow that I’ll try.

[kokomokid]

One of the best shooters in BPTR-BPCR that I know once told me these old guns were only good for 2 moa. I wanted to argue but since he can out shoot me I listened to him. He said you have to shoot 15 shot groups and be able to do it on call. That is putting 15 rounds into a tuna can at the chicken line.

[Gunlaker]

I think there is a big difference in shooting for group in calm conditions and shooting for score where you are often making windage adjustments. I just got back from another prone practice session this morning at 300 yards. It was calm but "miragy" for the first target, maybe 0-3 mph winds from usually 10-11 o'clock. After my 4 sighters I made only one windage correction of only 1/2 minute. The ten shot string scored 100-5x and was 3.2" center to center.

The next two targets were a different story as there were gusts up to about 8 mph and the wind was mainly a fishtailing headwind from maybe 10:30 to 1:30. Target 2 was only 3" tall, but 6.5" wide. Two points lost on one shot, and a lot of horizontal dispersion, were from a big wind gust. Lots of windage corrections made. Target #3 was a little less good yet, but mostly from me accidentally moving the MVA scope knobs in the wrong direction.

I guess in summary, I think that in calm conditions these guns can shoot really close to a minute of angle for ten shots, assuming no screw ups on the string. When there is switching wind it's really easy to blow up the groups with horizontal.

Chris.

[beltfed]

Gunlaker,
Paint arrows on those scope knobs.
I learned WAY back to do so for my iron sights in HI HI Po service rifle
when I lost a leg match because of turning the knobs wrong way. Painted arrows
on my M1A sights and later on my AR sights.
Nowadays I All of my tang sights etc are painted with yellow machine marker paint
with "arrow L" and "arrow UP" And my scope knobs are cleaned so the "up and the Left show
well.
beltfed/arnie

[BrentD]

One of the best shooters in BPTR-BPCR that I know once told me these old guns were only good for 2 moa. I wanted to argue but since he can out shoot me I listened to him. He said you have to shoot 15 shot groups and be able to do it on call. That is putting 15 rounds into a tuna can at the chicken line.

While I agree with this, it is entirely dependent on the specifications of what constitutes a group. 3-shot groups, 5-shot groups, whatever. I remember Garbe claiming only 20-shot groups at at least 200 yds. Well, 3-shot groups are at 1 MOA are awhole lot easier than 20-shot groups at 1 MOA. And, at 200 yds, one MOA is much harder than at 100 yds. At 1000 yds, it's pretty much a complete fluke, but all of that is not the rifle but the conditions and the inabilities of the rifle man.

I use group size as a relative tool not an absolute. Generally 10 shots at 200 yds, but always only relevant to something else I've also shot for group at the same distance and number of shots.

In the end, group size is about the worst measure of precision (never mind accuracy) that we have, but it so **** convenient and easy.

[Don McDowell]

Arnie, Brent, how did things go today at Lodi?

[indian joe]

Ten years ago, or maybe even five, I would have read these posts and -------ah these blokes are talkin through their hats
But then I have always been a ...."what if" person ------what if those blokes are doin it ?
So .....I look at my own targets --I've had a couple of round ball guns that could do two inches at 100 yards - and on a good day I could shoot em into three off my knees (sitting position) with open sights (20 years ago, I cant see that good now!) - so on that basis MOA with a scope sighted slug gun off a bench should be something to expect?
So .....I go look at a long range event at one of our clubs - at the time 45/50 would win it most times, not so now ....I had a 38/55 lever gun that would do 2inches at 100 for ten shots - nah you'll never do good enough to compete with a cowboy gun - forget it - went and bought a cheap SH IAB sharps that the original owner still wishes he never sold - told me just this easter that he followed up with five shilos that would not shoot as good as that old Marcheno - I was bone headed stubborn I was not gonna clean between shots - that thing leaded like crazy - two light patches of rust from a previous owner in storage - it took a two of us with a strong light and a jewellers loup to figure this out - just the faintest of marks - anyway the hacksaw cured it and eventually I figured out a load that works and I can keep it inside 2MOA vertical.
have a 45/75 Uberti that will also do that if I do my bit. Have done some nice three shot clusters with both these guns right around an inch but dont seem to be able to keep the concentration or focus.
Trouble is my bit is getting harder due to eyes - so any tips here are welcome - I only shoot tang sights not scope - and I find am losing the sight picture quite quickly - can get it all in focus for a bit but then it all starts swimming - If I look away - even just a couple seconds, maybe shake my head, and come back its good again. Do I need different aperture sizes? ....(yeah I know 20 years younger eyes would do it) .... just feel like I am missing something basic here.

[Don McDowell]

Larger aperture front and rear may help that. Also staying well hydrated. If you're wearing progressive bifocals they can give you sight problems.

[indian joe]

Larger aperture front and rear may help that. Also staying well hydrated. If you're wearing progressive bifocals they can give you sight problems.

Thanks Don
I wear about a number three for reading and 1.5 for driving, walking round town (inside buildings where light is a bit low) If its bright outside Itake em off and dont lose much at all. Shooting my open sight rifles I wear 1.5 or maybe a 2 - its a bit of a balancing act between target blurring some and sights clearer.
(ya can pick old guys with dodgy eyes at a ML shoot - they shoot long barrels and the back sight is way down the barrel ;) )

I see peep sight picture best with no glasses (I found that a bit strange really?) so I use clear/plain glasses for that.
Just got a parker hale hadley eyepiece so will try the bigger aperture - front is a lyman tunnel and the circle insert leaves a nice white ring round the bull.

NO to the bifocals! proly should have em but not prepared to give in just yet!

Hydration !!!!!!guilty yerhonor - I know better but never drink enough................

[beltfed]

Don,
Brent was there already for today.
I am not there yet. Just shooting (as in "putting in an appearance") the State match on Sat and Sun.
As per the above discussion, I also have vision problems nowadays. Also, have to shoot from stool with
Tall Stix since hip replacement and shoulder issues make prone a painfull endurance contest.
Arnie

[Don McDowell]

Arnie hope the weather cooperates and you guys have a good match.
I ordered a pair of the Decot shooting glasses, the HYWD set with 3 lenses, it's pretty amazing how much better they work for shooting than any of the store bought prescription glasses I've went thru.

[beltfed]

Don,
Earlier, I had Looked at the Lodi weather for today.
Looked kind of crappy early. Hope they got in the match into the afternoon.
Tomorrow looks better. Sat OK. Sunday- rain in the afternoon. Hope we can
get in both days shooting.
Arnie

[Don McDowell]

I still have Lodi on the weather page on my phone. Looks like it's pretty chilly, but the weekend looks to be around 60 or so.

[BrentD]

I am not going to Lodi this weekend. We have an ongoing family emergency, and I'm the guy who has to feed the herd and holding down the fort while Tamra is away. It sucks to miss the Lodi match, especially since there are some new shooters going, but it is not happening for me.

[Gunlaker]

Arnie I'm probably going to put DZ Arms mounts on that MVA scope and then it'll use the same knob directions as all of my other scopes. I just have to find a tall enough rear block so I can still be on paper at 200 while still being able to reach 1000.

Brent I think you summarized it very well with respect to groups.

The fact that I only shoot prone does place a limit on the quality of my load development. I've done a little testing in the past by placing a rear bag on the ground so I could "ground" the rifle to get it super steady. I wasn't able to get anything that felt really comfortable. I think if I could cook up something similar to what the F class shooters are using ( rear bag, front rest, prone but with cross sticks ) I could probably get a little more out of my load development.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Darned sorry to hear that Brent. I was hoping to see that your rifle woes from last year had been solved.
I hated to miss Lodi too, really enjoyed shooting there.

[Don McDowell]

Chris have you tried a wrist rest?

[kokomokid]

Arnie I'm probably going to put DZ Arms mounts on that MVA scope and then it'll use the same knob directions as all of my other scopes. I just have to find a tall enough rear block so I can still be on paper at 200 while still being able to reach 1000.

Brent I think you summarized it very well with respect to groups.

The fact that I only shoot prone does place a limit on the quality of my load development. I've done a little testing in the past by placing a rear bag on the ground so I could "ground" the rifle to get it super steady. I wasn't able to get anything that felt really comfortable. I think if I could cook up something similar to what the F class shooters are using ( rear bag, front rest, prone but with cross sticks ) I could probably get a little more out of my load development.

Chris.
My DZ mounts worked best for me with a .200 front block and .295 rear for Creedmoor and .245 rear for BPCR on my highwall. Just did not work well when it was in an extreme high position in the DZ mount with the lower block but of course your cheek or chin position will be the same.

[Gunlaker]

I've got the DZ mounts on one of my 23" scope and like it a lot. I'm using .375" mounts on the rear and not sure about the front ( 10.3" or whatever spacing ). That gives me all the range I need, but this rifle has blocks on 17" centers so I need a pretty tall rear block to go with the DZ mounts.

Don I haven't tried a wrist rest. That sounds like its worth looking into.

[Old-Win]

Leaving for Lodi in about an hour. Should get there by 4:00. Looking forward to the weekend. I'm getting too old to shoot 4 days in a row. Everybody gathering at Fitz's?

[flatsguide]

Brent,I hope the emergency resolves itself to a happy ending. Having a 200 and 300 yard range close by will give me a better idea of what the gun is capable of. What I really need to do is practice my offhand more, if I could pick up two more chickens per match I would be very happy. The older you get the heavier these rifle get.
Thanks for the comments folks
Richard

[Distant Thunder]

Richard,

I find that with a DDPP bullet it's best to patch the forward section, the bore diameter section, to a snug fit and if the base band, groove diameter part, is a little big just run the patched bullets thru a Lee type push thru sizer die. Lee will make a die whatever diameter you want for a very reasonable price. You would want the base band to be a snug fit in your fired cases and still fit into the lead of your rifle. Or if there is freebore size to a snug fit in the freebore. This what I do with my .40-65 and it works well.

The second advantage of doing this is that it presses the fold over nice and flat on the bottom. I size all my long range PPB after patching and they fit my rifle perfectly and shoot pretty well for me.

[flatsguide]

Jim thanks for the reply and congratulations on you win at Lodi. No doubt your .40-65 performs well. I have a Lee sizer die marked .458 but even after I run a patched bullet through the die I still have to slightly expand the case mouth to get the bullet in, even with Seth Cole paper that mikes .0017. I have a couple of sets of gage pins but have not checked the real size of that Lee die. I have some pre-hardened 4140 that I may make a bullet sizing die and do a final diamond hone to size.
I’m going to send a PM your way.
Thanks again Richard

[indian joe]

Don,
Brent was there already for today.
I am not there yet. Just shooting (as in "putting in an appearance") the State match on Sat and Sun.
As per the above discussion, I also have vision problems nowadays. Also, have to shoot from stool with
Tall Stix since hip replacement and shoulder issues make prone a painfull endurance contest.
Arnie

Arnie I know the feeling (prone) just a little - have got fat the last two years, and shooting prone , which I never liked, has got decidedly uncomfortable
Shot a muzzle loader match at easter 3position x 100yards - I went there on a mission for the aggregate - blew it in the first round prone, shot a better target sitting and better again offhand - ended up with the win - much to my surprise.
Don might have put his finger on the problem with me or part of it for sure - I know I dont drink enough when I travel and I have a hankering for coffee in the mornings and know that takes a few points off my score .
The thing has to be fun though - we can easily get too serious

[country gent]

Prone can be a tricky position to get right. Its good to get a straight bone supported position but hard to do. I can get down into prone and make it work well but it takes 2 to help me up again LOL.

Drinking water thru the day will help vision a lot. Most don't realize how much water you need to take in to stay hydrated. The exertions of moving gear and setting up temps and blow tubing all use up water from the body.

As to the coffee watch shooter used to 3 or more cups try and do with out it on match day. LOL

[Distant Thunder]

Many years ago I was told by a very good shooter that I should skip the coffee on match day and that I would shoot better if I did. Since he was a much experienced shooter than I was I gave it a try. NOT GOOD! I don't remember how I shot that day, but I know I didn't care how I shot. These days I make sure I get my required amount of coffee and not just on match day but every day! I may or may not shoot well but I feel a heck of a lot better either way. Life is better with coffee!

[rfd]

Black Rifle Coffee! (https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/) :coffee: :coffeecom 8-)

[Distant Thunder]

Tall, black and strong! Like God intended it to be!

[rfd]

amen to that, brutha!

[Gunlaker]

Black Rifle Coffee! (https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/) :coffee: :coffeecom 8-)

Ha! I might have to order something from there. I don't own any black rifles, but I do have a green one :-)

Chris.

[BrentD]

Coffee?

Might be good for case filler if cornmeal isn't handy.

[Lead pot]

Coffee?

Might be good for case filler if cornmeal isn't handy.

And smell better too.

[BrentD]

And smell better too.

Only if it the best, freshest stuff. Most coffee smells like fresh asphalt to me. :)

[Lead pot]

Fresh asphalt is always better than potholes no matter how it smells :D

[rfd]

First thing in the morning, I love the smell of a good pot of Columbian roast brewing, and then in my cup. Just a bit later in the morning followed by ...

“Smell that? You smell that? Black powder, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of black powder in the morning ..... "

:)

[Gunlaker]

Brent you are not a coffee drinker? I'm sort of addicted to the stuff, but I mostly drink straight espresso. I got into it as my first programming job had unlimited free coffee. We used to have marathon programming sessions to meet deadlines where we'd stay up all night drinking coffee. It's certainly not something that helps the shooting though!

Chris.

[BrentD]

Nope, can't imagine why people drink the stuff. Basically a bunch of botanical toxic waste compounds. That stuff is nasty, expensive, and screws with your mind. :)

[Gunlaker]

Nope, can't imagine why people drink the stuff. Basically a bunch of botanical toxic waste compounds. That stuff is nasty, expensive, and screws with your mind. :)

I certainly cannot argue with that. At least not by using logic :-)

Chris.

[Distant Thunder]

I personally wouldn't trust someone who does not drink coffee. They're just not right, in the head! :wink:

[Lead pot]

:) I just looked to see if coffee had any health benefits. From what I see I think I will have more then 5 cups a day. :D

https://gethealthyu.com/wake-up-to-whats-healthy-your-cup-of-coffee/

[BrentD]

Kurt, that was obviously put together by the Coffee Lobby - They are so much more powerful than the NRA, you wouldn't believe it. And they don't even have Wayne LaPierre's wardrobe expense account :)

That stuff will kill ya... Trust me on this. ;)

[Distant Thunder]

Studies show that caffeine and coffee can delay the onset of Alzheimer’s, even in seniors who already have some form of mild dementia. Research shows that caffeine blocks inflammation in the brain, specifically adenosine receptors, which can start a chain reaction that begins the mind’s cognitive decline.

[Distant Thunder]

A few of coffee's positive effects on modern civilization.

1) What ultimately became the New York Stock Exchange really began in a coffee house.

2) Originating in Yemen, traveling to Turkey and then moving to Europe by the mid-seventeenth century, coffee was about a lifestyle change. Because of a polluted water supply, beer had been a typical European’s beverage-of-choice. Starting with a breakfast of a bowl of beer soup (actually an eggs and beer and butter mixture), you could have sipped beer throughout the day.
The arrival of coffee resulted in less beer and more caffeine in the European diet. Or, as New Yorker Magazine writer Malcolm Gladwell explained, they chose “being jittery to being drunk.” Meanwhile, we could say that London’s coffee houses became idea incubators while factory workers became more alert. Coffee has even received some of the credit for the increase in productivity and innovation that characterized the industrial revolution.

3) Defined as the learning that makes people more productive, human capital’s potential has been boosted by caffeine and the coffee houses where people gathered to share ideas and trade stocks and bonds.

[Edward]

A few of coffee's positive effects on modern civilization.

1) What ultimately became the New York Stock Exchange really began in a coffee house.

2) Originating in Yemen, traveling to Turkey and then moving to Europe by the mid-seventeenth century, coffee was about a lifestyle change. Because of a polluted water supply, beer had been a typical European’s beverage-of-choice. Starting with a breakfast of a bowl of beer soup (actually an eggs and beer and butter mixture), you could have sipped beer throughout the day.
The arrival of coffee resulted in less beer and more caffeine in the European diet. Or, as New Yorker Magazine writer Malcolm Gladwell explained, they chose “being jittery to being drunk.” Meanwhile, we could say that London’s coffee houses became idea incubators while factory workers became more alert. Coffee has even received some of the credit for the increase in productivity and innovation that characterized the industrial revolution.

3) Defined as the learning that makes people more productive, human capital’s potential has been boosted by caffeine and the coffee houses where people gathered to share ideas and trade stocks and bonds.

I"ll go with that,2 cups and off to kill a turkey/Ed

[Distant Thunder]

As I raise my cup of coffee to you, ED, "Go kill a turkey!"! :coffee:

[Distant Thunder]

241935
without coffee!

241936
with coffee!!!