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Hannibal
05-07-2019, 10:19 PM
Hypothetical question : which is worse in the eyes of God? Divorce or suicide? Does it matter? And what about family members?

Some local news stories caused me to begin thinking on this. I'm not sure what to think about it, so I thought I'd ask you folks what you think.

Dieselhorses
05-07-2019, 10:46 PM
All I know is the Bible (1 Corinthians 6:19) states that ... know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? This would pertain to the suicide part. "Divorce" on the other hand is a little more unavoidable in certain circumstances....

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matthew 5:31-32

IMO, we can't "see" through the eyes of God for one, and second, on the subject of suicide, until we find out if that is a sin or not, I would never do it considering I wouldn't have a chance to ask for forgiveness.

Bzcraig
05-07-2019, 10:51 PM
No where in the Bible can you point to one being more grievous than the other. What is your context? Salvation? Sin? Something else?

JonB_in_Glencoe
05-07-2019, 10:57 PM
which is worse in the eyes of God? Divorce or suicide?
The simple answer:
Ending your life is far worse than dissolution of a marriage.
Of course, there are always extenuating circumstances to each action.

country gent
05-07-2019, 11:07 PM
I don't believe the 10 commandments were written in a specific order or magnitude. Sin is sin and as far as I believe all are "equal", no where is there a listing of the severity of sins.

JimB..
05-07-2019, 11:13 PM
When you put on a nicely pressed clean white shirt and then get a spot on it right up front, are you more or less upset because of the size of the spot?

wv109323
05-07-2019, 11:14 PM
A sin is an act against God's will, so I don't think there are big sins and little sins. The Bible says God hates divorce. A divorce can affect 1 ,2 or 3 generations.
A suicide usually is associated with a mental illness likely depression or feeling helpless. Depression can be treated and feeling helpless is temporary. That also may need mental theropy.
Others that may be in pain and terminally ill , I don't know how God would view that. Also would it be the same if a person refuses medical attention,such as a person refusing chemotheropy.

Hannibal
05-07-2019, 11:37 PM
When you put on a nicely pressed clean white shirt and then get a spot on it right up front, are you more or less upset because of the size of the spot?

I don't follow this analogy at all. Can you elaborate a bit, please?

Hannibal
05-07-2019, 11:45 PM
No where in the Bible can you point to one being more grievous than the other. What is your context? Salvation? Sin? Something else?

As you point out, I am unaware of any one sin considered more or less grevous than another. My thoughts were more toward how the family was impacted. Either divorce or suicide is going to set off a chain of events.

I'm not after a 'correct' or 'incorrect' answer, more just interested in how others view such an action as pertaining to their faith.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but it's the best way I know to explain it.

JimB..
05-08-2019, 06:32 AM
I don't follow this analogy at all. Can you elaborate a bit, please?

The size of the spot doesn’t affect your level of disappointment, the shirt was clean and now it is not. I think similar reasoning applies to the relative size or scale or importance of specific sins to God. God views the shirt (our soul, us) as no longer clean because of sin, the size of the sin doesn’t matter.

GhostHawk
05-08-2019, 07:31 AM
Both are bad.

Marriage IMO is a 3 way contract with a Man, a woman, and their God.
Man and Woman can get divorced, tear up their contract, God still holds his copy, and holds you to it. So sex outside of that marriage after divorce could in his eyes be seen as Adultery and a sin.

Ending oneself, well that is a hard one.
Dieselhorses quote of Corinthians pretty much lays down the law right there.

I agree with several others, it is not which one is worse, they are both bad.

Suicide is IMO more based on "Self" ie "My life sucks so I'm going to check out" with little or no consideration to how that act effects others.

I also agree with several others who pointed out that a Sin is a Sin. In effect you have deliberately pissed off the Lord God Almighty. Does it matter which is worse? Both are bad and to be avoided.

As I am married to a once married and divorced woman (Not her fault) The Lord and I ended up having some pretty long talks about this subject. For a time I was her husband in every way but in bed. Now I don't know if he was testing me? Testing my Wife? Eventually it came down to the ex abandoning her and her newborn child. His taking up with her best friend, fathering 5 children on her. 3 of them born with another mans name. (But really ********) When I brought up under the old law he would have been stoned to death for adultery The Lord stopped asking me to restrain myself from my wife. Not that at 66 with health issues it is a big problem, because the opposite is true. Little willy is tired and retired, sleeping most of the time and frankly I'm ok with that. Over 60 sex is a lot of work. A good backscratch and snuggle can be better.

dverna
05-08-2019, 08:59 AM
First John 1:9 declares, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Therefore, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is to reject Christ and the forgiveness He offers. So, in that sense, the "greatest sin" is not believing in Jesus.

As to divorce...confessing our sin should yield forgiveness.

As to suicide...I see the same result (forgiveness) if someone prays to Jesus before committing the act.

Tom W.
05-08-2019, 10:06 AM
I was taught that God "remembers your sin no more forever" if you are saved. Hence, whatever deep despair that you get into, no matter the problem, God has a place for you.
If you're saved, you're saved. I haven't read anywhere that Jesus said "I go to prepare place for you, unless you do something wrong. Then I'll stop construction."
No 'Look, He's doing good today, put up the walls... no, wait, he messed up. tear it back down again'

T_McD
05-08-2019, 11:47 AM
I would suggest avoiding both. As far as the decisions of others, it doesn’t affect me and my own multitude of failings.

Preacher Jim
05-08-2019, 12:04 PM
Sin is sin. God hates sin, no degrees of sin.

UKShootist
05-08-2019, 12:19 PM
Sin is sin. God hates sin, no degrees of sin.

And are there degrees of forgiveness or of love or of God's understanding?

Walks
05-08-2019, 12:22 PM
Divorce is prevalent in My Family. I'm Jew, not a Christian. We have a different view of Divorce. But our view regarding Divorce is the same or even Harder, but possible.

I Can't quote Scripture as My Masonic Bible and Copy of the Jewish Holy Scriptures were stolen years ago. And I Can't find Proper Replacements.

I do know there are many Differences between the Prevalent King James Version of the old/new Testaments and the Jewish Holy Scriptures.

But I was raised on the Books of Moses.

To My Family, suicide is just about the worst thing a man can do to his Family and his own Soul.
An act of COMPLETE COWARDICE.
The only excuse is a matter of Honor, to Preserve the Lives and/or Honor of the Family.
Example being the suicide of Gen. Ervin Rommel to save the Lives of his Family.

I'm the child of Divorce, and My Mother's Mother was also Divorced. My Sister, an Uncle and 2 Aunt's. Plus a few Cousins.
My Wife's Family is Big, 4 Sister's, one divorce and two divorces. 9 Nieces & Nephews, 8 divorces, a couple twice.

So as far as Divorce goes, I am not qualified to make a moral judgement on that.

As far as Marriage goes I've taken 4 Oaths in my Life;
DeMolay, Masonry, the U.S. Government/U. S. NAVY.

And My Marriage Vow with My Wife.

I've broken NONE.

JimB..
05-08-2019, 12:24 PM
And are there degrees of forgiveness or of love or of God's understanding?
What do you think or believe?

Hannibal
05-08-2019, 01:33 PM
The size of the spot doesn’t affect your level of disappointment, the shirt was clean and now it is not. I think similar reasoning applies to the relative size or scale or importance of specific sins to God. God views the shirt (our soul, us) as no longer clean because of sin, the size of the sin doesn’t matter.

Now I follow. Thank you.

RED BEAR
05-08-2019, 01:38 PM
Not sure but with a divorce there may be no need for suicide your spouse may take care of that for you.

Hogtamer
05-08-2019, 02:11 PM
Context is everything! In the sermon on the mount Jesus was explaining the difference in the Kingdom and the world. He constantly admonished the Jews who proudly claimed adherence to Mose's Law. He started with the beatitudes that make no sense in context of this world but establish the truth and grace of Kingdom life. Looking at women with a lustful heart is the same as the act of adultery. Wishing another dead is the same as murder. These things point to the gulf between man and God, the gulf only Jesus could remove by a perfect sacrifice. You've made your laws men and look where they've gotten you. "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden....." Some choose not, and endless bickeriing and striving about the law continues. Only Christ followed every "jot and tittle" of the law and if that's the path you choose expect to be judged against that perfection.

Blackwater
05-08-2019, 05:38 PM
In addressing the original question here, I think the question is fatally flawed. God has given us the best advice and instruction we could ever hope to have. And to compare one "rule" with another is worse than comparing apples and oranges! Our job isn't to determine questions like these, but to learn to trust and obey what we've been given, and to overcome our own mortal desires. When our eyes are on the Master, and we're truly grateful for all that he has given and done for us, questions like these go "poof," and simply disappear in the folds of gratefulness and satisfaction with the wondrous things we've been provided with.

I will say that regarding suicide, the Catholic church, perhaps the most consistently "conservative" sect of Christianity, once declared that a suicide could not get to Heaven. However, in more recent years, as more and more has been discovered about how brain chemistry can and does affect our moods and behavior, the Catholic church has slacked off on that, and made some provisions whereby suicides MAY be buried on consecrated ground, and has decided that maybe they can go to Heaven as well.

As to divorce, that, IMO, is one of those things that each person must hash out for his or her own self. Divorce simply because one "falls out of love" seems to obviously be borne of one's mortal expectations and fantasies rather than any concern with God's laws. It seems, with the world population being split almost 50/50 male and female, that one man plus one woman marriages are the normally expected and provided for set up for us, as ordained by God. With women being the baby bearers, and with inheritances and at times, transfer of power, being dependent on knowing a child is ours (or whoever's), it seems obvious that faithfulness to one's mate is the norm and not to be defied lightly by either party.

One can analyze these things until one has a headache, and I feel one coming on now, so I'll leave this thread and try to find something inspiring. I need it right now.

Hickory
05-08-2019, 05:43 PM
Neither one offers a good outcome, you can recover from divorce, but not suicide.

dtknowles
05-08-2019, 08:35 PM
First John 1:9 declares, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Therefore, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is to reject Christ and the forgiveness He offers. So, in that sense, the "greatest sin" is not believing in Jesus.

As to divorce...confessing our sin should yield forgiveness.

As to suicide...I see the same result (forgiveness) if someone prays to Jesus before committing the act.


To be forgiven don't you have to admit that you have done wrong and undo that wrong to the best of your ability. You can have done wrong and be happy about it and be forgiven. To be forgiven for a divorce you would have to be willing to remarry the person you divorced and you can't be forgiven for suicide, you can ask for forgiveness in advance but since you are not properly repentant you can't be forgiven. You can't love Jesus and ask him to forgive you for what you are about to do when you know it is wrong. To knowingly and willingly act against the will of God is a sin and you can't repent if you are dead but you maybe can do penance in purgatory.

Tim

dtknowles
05-08-2019, 08:39 PM
In my philosophy neither is a sin if the act does more good than harm. Sin is the harm you do to the works of God. If killing yourself hurts no one and helps someone it is not a sin.

Tim

dh2
05-08-2019, 09:13 PM
Divorce is permissible under condition of adultery and by some domestic violence , as far as many religions go ,But suicide I know no condition by any religion that I am aware of is not permissible, and only leaves a bigger mess behind for loved ones, I have been divorced you can heal and move forward in my case with the help of the church, but suicide no one will ever heal.

wv109323
05-08-2019, 09:19 PM
Jesus forgave the woman at the well. She had been married 5 times and living with another.

dverna
05-08-2019, 09:50 PM
David had either 6 or 7 wives....one way around divorce I suppose. It will be argued multiple wives allowed alliances to be bond in blood and were “necessary” for the strength of Israel. And David orchestrated the death of Bathsheba’s husband so deep was his lust for her. God seemingly approved or at least forgave him, as she bore David 4 sons. The whole concept of multiple wives and concubines might be considered a sin?

King Henry the 8th had wives murdered to avoid divorce....I do not see these sins as equal.

Hannibal
05-08-2019, 10:46 PM
Clearly I've no way of knowing God's will, nor would I dare to pretend so. So what follows is simply the random thoughts of a soft-headed old man.

I can only only presume that sins are not 'ranked' to prevent mankind from electing to choose 'lessor' sins as justification for an act.
And as mentioned above, why some men behaved in apparently sinful ways yet remained blessed by God such as Samson is a question I can not fathom an answer for.

Thundarstick
05-10-2019, 11:59 AM
Sorry, I messed up the quote during editing!

As I am married to a once married and divorced woman (Not her fault) The Lord and I ended up having some pretty long talks about this subject. For a time I was her husband in every way but in bed. Now I don't know if he was testing me? Testing my Wife? Eventually it came down to the ex abandoning her and her newborn child. His taking up with her best friend, fathering 5 children on her. 3 of them born with another mans name. (But really ********) When I brought up under the old law he would have been stoned to death for adultery The Lord stopped asking me to restrain myself from my wife. Not that at 66 with health issues it is a big problem, because the opposite is true. Little willy is tired and retired, sleeping most of the time and frankly I'm ok with that. Over 60 sex is a lot of work. A good backscratch and snuggle can be better.[/QUOTE]

This is an interesting scenario. Does sex make one married, or not? Can we cohabitate as man and wife (legal by man, yet against God's law) but be justified as long as we are celibate?

DCP
05-10-2019, 12:48 PM
In Christian hamartiology, eternal sins, unforgivable sins, or unpardonable sins are sins which will not be forgiven by God. One eternal or unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is specified in several passages of the Synoptic Gospels, including Mark 3:28–29, Matthew 12:31–32, and Luke 12:10.

Hannibal
05-10-2019, 01:02 PM
Sorry, I messed up the quote during editing!

As I am married to a once married and divorced woman (Not her fault) The Lord and I ended up having some pretty long talks about this subject. For a time I was her husband in every way but in bed. Now I don't know if he was testing me? Testing my Wife? Eventually it came down to the ex abandoning her and her newborn child. His taking up with her best friend, fathering 5 children on her. 3 of them born with another mans name. (But really ********) When I brought up under the old law he would have been stoned to death for adultery The Lord stopped asking me to restrain myself from my wife. Not that at 66 with health issues it is a big problem, because the opposite is true. Little willy is tired and retired, sleeping most of the time and frankly I'm ok with that. Over 60 sex is a lot of work. A good backscratch and snuggle can be better.

This is an interesting scenario. Does sex make one married, or not? Can we cohabitate as man and wife (legal by man, yet against God's law) but be justified as long as we are celibate?[/QUOTE]

From what I understand, all you would have to do is *think* about having sex and it would be the same sin.

Hickok
05-10-2019, 01:22 PM
There is only one unforgivable sin, denying the gift of eternal life through faith and belief in Christ Jesus. He died for our sins on the cross, he paid the entire price of sin, and cried out "It is finished."

If we turn away, or deny what He did for us, we have called God a liar, and have already condemned ourselves.

We as humans will still do stupid things, harmful things, wrong things, and sinful things, but nothing is stronger than the Blood Of Christ Jesus, that washes us clean of all sin. Our own folly can lead to physical death, but if we have been saved by faith in Jesus, He gives us eternal life.

Jesus will not loose one of His own, they are of His flock, and He will never leave one of His own or forsake one of His own. Bad health, mental problems, severe depression, or lack of good judgement that leads to death, will not cause Jesus to cast off one of His own who have been saved by faith in Him.

We are not perfect, we err, we fail. Jesus never fails, never falters, He is Perfect.

Jesus is all powerful, all knowing and all mighty. Christ Jesus has defeated the accuser, Satan. The devil cannot have any soul protected by the blood of Messiah, Yeshua!

dtknowles
05-11-2019, 01:22 PM
It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

DCP
05-11-2019, 03:44 PM
It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

You're in my prayers. Blessings

dtknowles
05-11-2019, 05:27 PM
You're in my prayers. Blessings

In what way am I in your prayers? I hope you don't pray that I am called to Jesus. That would be evil. If you pray my greater understanding, good. If you pray that I have good health, good.

Tim

DCP
05-11-2019, 05:44 PM
In what way am I in your prayers? I hope you don't pray that I am called to Jesus. That would be evil. If you pray my greater understanding, good. If you pray that I have good health, good.

Tim

Why do you feel you have the right to dictate what I pray about? Why are you so argumentative, and unhappy?
Who are you really mad at. What are you afraid of?
Send me your phone and I can give you a call.
We could have a nice talk.

Vaya con Dios

UKShootist
05-11-2019, 06:13 PM
It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

It does seem that the opinions of non-christians, and indeed, non-christians themselves, rarely seem welcome here. I am reminded of a remark I heard made, allegedly, by a pope many years ago about Malta. There's too much religion and not enough Christianity.

Me? I hover between atheism and agnosticism while adopting freethinking Zen Buddhism, which I consider to be the only rational theosophy, albeit corrupted by ignorant frightened adherents into a religion. Here's a thing though. Science can be wrong, but when it discovers that it is wrong in recovers, in a constant striving to find the truth. Scientists will admit the possibility of being wrong and continue to seek the truth. Faith is always right, even when it's wrong. That being the case, which faith to choose becomes the issue. I firmly believe, whether atheist or agnostic, that 'faith' is the most preposterous of all humankind's failings. How can you have more faith in your religion than a Muslim suicide bomber calling upon his God as he detonates himself to death? You cannot deny him his faith. it would be preposterous to do so. And the biggest sinners of all are those faithful who will lie in order to convert, and they are all around. Pious preachers living a millionaire's lifestyle.

Hmmm...... More than I intended to say, but worth the saying I believe.

Ickisrulz
05-11-2019, 07:39 PM
It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

This area of the forum is a sub-section of the Chapel. The Chapel (i.e., not mosque, temple or synagogue) was set up for Christians and by extension the "Deep Theological" area is for use by Christians (or honest seekers) to discuss biblical ideas, teachings and understandings. To me anyway, people coming here to troll, argue or assert their humanistic opinions ruin this section.

DCP
05-11-2019, 07:42 PM
When I say, “I am a Christian”.
”I’m not shouting, “I’ve been saved!” I’m whispering, “I get lost! That’s why I chose this way
When I say, “I am a Christian”.
I don’t speak with human pride I’m confessing that I stumble – Needing God to be my guide
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong I’m professing that I’m weak And pray for strength to carry on.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success I’m admitting that I’ve failed And cannot ever pay the debt.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t think I know it all I submit to my confusion Asking humbly to be taught.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect My flaws are all too visible But God believes I’m worth it.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain I have my share of heartache, Which is why I seek His name.
When I say, “I am a Christian” I do not wish to judge I have no authority…
I only know I’m loved
by Carol Wimmer

UKShootist
05-12-2019, 01:47 AM
This area of the forum is a sub-section of the Chapel. The Chapel (i.e., not mosque, temple or synagogue) was set up for Christians and by extension the "Deep Theological" area is for use by Christians (or honest seekers) to discuss biblical ideas, teachings and understandings.

In other words, an echo chamber where you can preach to the converted.

Thundarstick
05-12-2019, 06:55 AM
There seems to be a confusion between theology and philosophy. The PIT and H&OT are the place to discuss philosophy, this is the area to discuss theology. If one chooses to make philosophy (humanism) their god, that's their God given rite to do so, and to follow it to the end. To live by a philosophy also takes faith, it's just not spoken of in those terms. This area is for discussing theological matters as pertains to Biblical/ Judeo Christian values, and as one can see, there is a wide variance on these matters, without introducing straight humanism into the discussions. I don't devalue anyone's beliefs, as it's your rite to hold them, as long as your rites end where mine begin, etc. Indeed, it is a place for discussion amongst the, "converted"!

Ickisrulz
05-12-2019, 08:43 AM
In other words, an echo chamber where you can preach to the converted.

This area is far from an echo chamber. You will see plenty of disagreements, but all within a common Christian world-view.

You wouldn't go into the muzzle loading section of this forum to argue that muzzle loaders suck and enlightened people use cartridge rifles would you?

dtknowles
05-12-2019, 01:16 PM
This area is far from an echo chamber. You will see plenty of disagreements, but all within a common Christian world-view.

You wouldn't go into the muzzle loading section of this forum to argue that muzzle loaders suck and enlightened people use cartridge rifles would you?

So our chapel, deeply theological, subforum is for Christians only?


Tim

dtknowles
05-12-2019, 01:23 PM
…….. This area is for discussing theological matters as pertains to Biblical/ Judeo Christian values, and as one can see, there is a wide variance on these matters, without introducing straight humanism into the discussions. ………...!

Why do you think the Subforum is for Biblical/Judeo Christian values only. If I missed the guidance that make that site policy please point me to it. Even if that is the case, discussing arguments against Jesus being not actually the Christ would discussing the fact that the bible might be fiction would still seem relevant. I think many here would also argue it is not just for the ""converted" the undecided or not yet converted are certainly welcome.

Tim

JonB_in_Glencoe
05-12-2019, 01:34 PM
So our chapel, deeply theological, subforum is for Christians only?
Tim

Preacher Jim posted (stickied) what the Chapel is meant for and for whom.


Chapel is a place for all to bring their needs.

This is not a place to debate theology.nor is it a place were what church you attend is important. Here all are equal and welcome. All of us who love the Lord will be neighbors in heaven singing praises to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
No one's opinion is more important than yours. Remember we need each other for fellowship, prayer, and community of believers.
If we stand together, pray together we will see many miracles happen.
Will you help us build the chapel into a place of prayer, help for those in need and a place of peace?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313741-Chapel-is-a-place-for-all-to-bring-their-needs&p=3745329&viewfull=1#post3745329


Jim's sticky in it's sub-forum "Deep theological discussion" goes like this:


Welcome to the place to discuss your deep ideas

Keep it civil and remember this is a test of new area for chapel.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337766-Welcome-to-the-place-to-discuss-your-deep-ideas

JonB_in_Glencoe
05-12-2019, 01:39 PM
With all that stated, this thread is about Divorce and suicide.

It seems we have gotten a bit off topic.

If someone were to start a thread about...
"Jesus being not actually the Christ"
OR
"discussing the fact that the bible might be fiction"

There might be a little bit more latitude, than discussing it in this thread.
I'm not deleting any posts YET...but I'm getting real close.

Thundarstick
05-12-2019, 01:45 PM
Thank you, I was about to say the same thing about topics.

The thread that was the start of this subsection? Creation vs creationism

Feel free to start a thread on other theological issues, but theological implies a belief in God and seeking his will for us.

dtknowles
05-12-2019, 01:45 PM
Preacher Jim posted (stickied) what the Chapel is meant for and for whom.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313741-Chapel-is-a-place-for-all-to-bring-their-needs&p=3745329&viewfull=1#post3745329


Jim's sticky in it's sub-forum "Deep theological discussion" goes like this:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337766-Welcome-to-the-place-to-discuss-your-deep-ideas

Thanks Jon. I will accept that guidance and keep my contributions here relevant to the Bible. Judging from some of the posts about Muslims not everyone feels so restrained but I understand if you allow some diversions.

Tim

T_McD
05-12-2019, 03:42 PM
Unfortunately these topics are intertwined. Using the Bible as a moral authority in which to pass judgement misses the point entirely but even if one chooses to, not all scripture is of equal importance. Old vs New Testament, red letter words vs everything else....

All this to say that one should expect some push back when using scripture outside it’s intended purpose.

1hole
05-12-2019, 09:11 PM
Just a word about this forum on Theology. The word means a study of God's word; that's the Christian God and his word is found in the Holy Bible.

It's a free world and anyone can inject whatever they wish but we are under no obligation to yield the podium to interlopers.

cainttype
06-22-2019, 07:53 AM
Suicide is insanity, and the result of a clouded mind, always and every time... period.
Whether that choice is made for fear of pain, loss of material things, deep depression, etc., it is ALWAYS the choice of a person driven insane to one degree or another.
If you believe “God loves everyone”, then it would seem that you have to also accept God would know the difference between sane acts of deviance and the actions of a hurt or wounded, confused individual.
“God knows the difference”, and suggesting that suicide somehow condemns a person is inexcusable, would be the only logical conclusion... in my opinion.

William Yanda
06-22-2019, 11:11 AM
How can "worse" be defined when to step over the line from righteous to unrighteous earns the ultimate penalty? What does it matter where one crosses the line?

Bigslug
06-22-2019, 04:16 PM
Divorce - people and their outlooks change over time. What god worth following would want you to live in ongoing misery?

Suicide - it's been said often that God never gives us more than we can handle. It would seem that those who choose this path would arrive at the pearly gates begging to differ. Everybody comments on the choice from the outside and suggests their views on the situation from the outside from their viewpoint of having easy solutions. Not all who land on a desert island have the ability to fix a broken outboard motor, have the cloth to make a sail, know how to make a new boat, can navigate by the stars, or have someone to contact to come rescue them. Whether their own choices or things beyond their control (Hey! Acts of God!) put them on that island, they may arrive - quite logically and maybe even correctly - at the conclusion that options do not exist.

I believe that the whole concept of "suicide as sin" was created as part of "religion as government": You start by telling the suffering peasants growing your crops that if they behave themselves, they'll get paradise when they die (and are no longer your problem). Their existence pretty much sucks and has no chance of getting better, so they start offing themselves to get to paradise. With the cheap labor force providing your meals declining, you write the addendum that suffering = paradise and suicide = hell.

If you're of the sort that believes God has a purpose for everybody, would it then not be logical to conclude that a suicide's purpose in the world would be as instruction to others? That could be as simple as "Take steps not to get yourself irrevocably stuck on a desert island, but accept that you might end up in that spot someday", or more nuanced, such as "When you're old, decrepit, full of tumors, and a burden on your loved ones, there's no shame in taking the long walk out on the ice flow"

Ickisrulz
06-22-2019, 05:26 PM
It's funny how the same topics come up here again and again.

1. Suicide: There is no passage in the Bible prohibiting taking one's own life. So logically, the Bible does not say you will go to hell for doing so. Like polygamy (which is also not prohibited except for church officers), it might not specifically be mentioned because it is self-limiting

2. Divorce: Divorce is a necessity for some circumstances. Two are given in the New Testament: repeated adultery or if an unbeliever does not wish to be married to a Christian. It also follows that divorce would be appropriate in situations of domestic violence or other kind of abuse. God himself is a divorced person (Jeremiah 3:8).

3. Some sins worse than others?: Common sense says that murder is more serious that stealing a farmer's apple because you're hungry. If one needs a proof text:

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." (John 19:11).

PowPow
06-22-2019, 06:25 PM
Sin is sin. God hates sin, no degrees of sin.

^ This. Ending one's own life is sin. Ending one's marriage is sin. Both are equally sin, neither being pleasing to God.

My advice to the OP: Consider doing something else that is not sinful.

cainttype
06-22-2019, 07:06 PM
No sin is worse than another is silly, at best.
No reason for judgement from your creator, if that’s the case.

So if a platoon of soldiers was pinned down by a machine gun nest, and one soldier decides to draw fire (in a suicidal way) so that his Brothers in Arms might have the chance to get into position to take that nest out... He gives his life, suicide, so that his brothers might live... Is he sinning, and his actions shunned?... Or is he celebrated, and respected by all, especially those that lived because he sacrificed himself?

Die-hard make-believe rules in religion are usually easy to reduce to being ramblings by people that don’t think critically.

gbrown
06-22-2019, 11:07 PM
I'm not sure of all this, as I hear and see thoughts which seem logical, but apparently are based on interpretation of scripture. I have always been raised, and believe that there is not big sin or little sin--it's sin. It is we humans, saddening God by "missing the mark", not doing as he commanded us. God's judgement is God's judgement, all I can say. He sees into our hearts and souls. He will judge by what He sees there. If it is as He intended and wanted for us, its good. If its merely a justification or rationalization, its bad. These are purely my thoughts. To excuse any sin, is not within our baileywick, that is up to God. I'm not judging anyone here. I can't. I hope I have lived my life as I should. I will be judged one day and we will see. One of the people that had an impact on our founding fathers was Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island. I have read some of his work, and I, personally, agree with it. We have a church, which we should be faithful to and work with in attendance, faith, fellowship and support, but our contract with God is our contract, a one on one basis.

cpaspr
06-23-2019, 01:07 AM
Having seen the results of both divorces and suicides, up close and personal, I will say this: Both are messy, and both are usually caused by someone's, or multiple someones', selfish acts.

I've personally known three people who committed suicide. One got caught for embezzling over a million dollars. He'd always been a big shot, at least to himself, and he couldn't stand the idea of being a nobody in prison. One had cancer, and refused chemo and radiation, and used Oregon's Death With Dignity Act when the pain got to be more than he could bear. And the other one was as a result of depression. This was back in the early 70s before doctors knew as much about chemical imbalances. The shrink told her "I can't do anything for you." It was true. He couldn't. Not while her brain was chemically imbalanced. But he either didn't know or didn't tell her about medicines that might help. Or he did and she didn't hear or believe him. Regardless, she lost hope of ever getting better. It is said that a person can last weeks without food, days without water, but not one moment without hope.

So how do those three line up with my first statement about selfish acts? The embezzler was only thinking about himself. He couldn't stand the thought of being a nobody, a number in prison. He was already a selfish man (remember - bigshot?), who treated his family as possessions. They weren't, but he had so trained his worldview that he couldn't see otherwise. The second was in his mid-60s, and had never married. And was, quite frankly, a curmudgeon. So he was mostly alone, by choice, as he didn't suffer foolish opinions well, and if you didn't share his opinions, well, you were a fool, because he was right. And the third? That one's a bit harder to see the selfishness. To cut to the chase, in believing what one shrink told her one time she chose the easing of her feeling of hopelessness over the pain her death caused to her husband, her three children (10-14) and her family.

Regarding divorce, we've all seen the results of those. Excluding Hollywood, where many marriage are really just for the publicity, when there are children involved both sides usually end up using the children to hurt the other parent, or try to get back at the ex by telling the children bad things about the ex. Maybe true, maybe not. Also, when children have divorced parents, they often go on to getting divorced themselves, continuing the cycle. Because their parents never learned, or chose, to back down and realize that sometimes when you're married you give up your "right" to be right, and do it your spouse's way, whatever that may be. And it goes both ways. Both spouses have to give up their "right" to be right. As the pastor once said, when two people marry, they actually create another, that takes precedence: "He" and "She" marry and create "US". And what is best for "US" must prevail if the marriage is to last and prosper.

So, to finally give my opinion on the original question, neither is worse in the eyes of God. Both cause pain and suffering beyond the "primary" actors, with varying degrees of collateral damage. Jesus said that no one can snatch what is his from his hand (I'm paraphrasing).

If someone commits suicide, but they've previously accepted Jesus as their Savior, they still go to heaven. But those left behind still have to deal with the aftermath.

If a couple divorces, even if either or both are true Christians, they're still saved. But there will still be consequences. Maybe not big consequences. Maybe huge consequences that impact entire communities. But those are the things they have to live with.

Rizzo
06-23-2019, 02:21 PM
Just a word about this forum on Theology. The word means a study of God's word; that's the Christian God and his word is found in the Holy Bible.

It's a free world and anyone can inject whatever they wish but we are under no obligation to yield the podium to interlopers.

The title of this forum is Deep Theological Discussion.
It does not say Christians Only!

There are different belief systems out there that acknowledge God as creator.
This is the place to have those discussions.
Interlopers, eh?
(sigh)


.......

1. Suicide: There is no passage in the Bible prohibiting taking one's own life.

Hmmm, does "Thou shalt not kill" ring a bell?

Ickisrulz
06-23-2019, 02:43 PM
The title of this forum is Deep Theological Discussion.
It does not say Christians Only!

There are different belief systems out there that acknowledge God as creator.
This is the place to have those discussions.
Interlopers, eh?
(sigh)



Hmmm, does "Thou shalt not kill" ring a bell?

The Bible prescribed capital punishment and tells of the history of Israel being instructed to go to war. All killing is not murder nor is all killing of humans sinful.

UKShootist
06-23-2019, 03:15 PM
It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ingnoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. The best illustration is what I quote below. It is an article / letter written in a humorous tone but which raises serious points and tends to confirm my suspicions. I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.


In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24.
The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9.
The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Ickisrulz
06-23-2019, 06:16 PM
It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ingnoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. The best illustration is what I quote below. It is an article / letter written in a humorous tone but which raises serious points and tends to confirm my suspicions. I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.

Challenged accepted!! I am not a Jew. I am a Bible believing Christian who knows how to properly interpret and apply Scripture. Maybe not 100%, but I get the job done. This was my response to another thread that can be found here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?381866-How-do-you-choose-what-parts-to-follow

In short, not everything in the Bible is applicable for everyone at all times for a variety of reasons.

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

UKShootist
06-24-2019, 04:51 AM
Challenged accepted!! I am not a Jew. I am a Bible believing Christian who knows how to properly interpret and apply Scripture. Maybe not 100%, but I get the job done. This was my response to another thread that can be found here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?381866-How-do-you-choose-what-parts-to-follow

In short, not everything in the Bible is applicable for everyone at all times for a variety of reasons.

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

And a genuinely fine effort, mirroring the views of a good friend who is also a good Christian in my eyes and only a pot one in his, but that's par for the course and as he is one of the most decent men I know I'll go with that. There still remains, though, an element of pick and mix that seems to allow the self righteous haters room for manoeuvre. But thanks again for that.

Rizzo
06-24-2019, 01:06 PM
The Bible prescribed capital punishment and tells of the history of Israel being instructed to go to war. All killing is not murder nor is all killing of humans sinful.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

UKShootist
06-24-2019, 01:33 PM
Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

Killing yourself doesn't involve killing? :veryconfu

Walks
06-24-2019, 01:49 PM
I am A Jew.
I believe in the 10 Commandments. And I've broken one or two on occasion. But not Adultery. I watched that growing up.
I am the Child of Divorce, the Grandchild of Divorce and the Brother of Divorce. We have never had a Suicide. But the Divorces have been Crushing.

I watched it Tear my Family to Pieces.

owejia
06-25-2019, 08:09 AM
There is always hope of salvation until you draw your last breath, after that not much chance to ask for forgiveness.

cas
06-25-2019, 11:42 AM
In my opinion, the "cosmic view of things", suicide is probably worse than murder. Murder you're ending a life, but that person is innocent in the act.

With suicide, you're not only ending a life, but rejecting your own life, and not innocent in it.

(society and the law doesn't see it that way obviously)

PowPow
06-25-2019, 06:56 PM
Suicide is a form of self-murder. The question is, would that murder be seen by God as pleasing in any way? If not, it's most likely sinful. (6th commandment: Thou shall not murder.) Some might say that Samson's final (and suicidal) act of collapsing the Philistine temple on himself and killing thousands of Philistines in the process was an act that would have been pleasing to God. If so, then that would most likely not be sinful.

God is the judge of what is sinful and what is not. He has given us plenty of examples in His word to use as our guide. As with anything, err on the side of humbleness and repentance if you find yourself in a gray area. Talk to your pastor/priest/rabbi/chaplain, friends, or post here. Study the word. Pray. Wash, rinse, repeat. A Christian would feel the need to repent of that sin. A Jew would atone for that sin. But, feeling unmoved to do anything in the face of one's sin is the surest sign that they're in a position to face the fullness of God's judgement.

1hole
06-26-2019, 02:35 PM
It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ignoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. ..... I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.

I too will take up your challenge.

What you may take as a lack of confidence in our Christian beliefs is simply the lack of experience in debate with impossibly smug and dishonest challengers whom we KNOW will not listen no matter what we say. Beating our heads against a stone wall does nothing to the wall but does make our heads hurt. Fact is, most of us are simple layman so precious few of us, including me, are prepared to answer. Even so, in the off chance you are asking honest questions, let me try to explain some of it.

First, the Holy Bible is not a book; it is some two thousand years of writings by a number of inspired authors, now collected in a single volume. Virtually all the writers were Hebrews writing to Hebrews long before Christianity existed. Hebrews - Jews - then and now, don't think or write as we do today. Thus, the Bible is not a sequential chapter and verse tome designed to better fit the Western mind. We "modern westerns" first have to know a little about it. If we or it try to read it as a "modern" book it will make no sense. Suffice it to say the Old Testament is a history of early Jews and how God told them to live at that point in history. So, listing silly questions about how Jews were to live four thousand years ago in a society we can't began to understand is not as smart as the questioner thinks. Diets, "slavery", public executions, etc, were as different then as Martians are today. The connecting thread all through the OT is the coming Messiah.

Messiah - Jesus - came at the end of the dispensation of the Law of do and don't. The "Gospel" , God's new (good news!) message that all mankind can be born anew - spiritually - into the eternal family of God IF we chose to believe in (i.e., cling to, trust in, surrender to) Lord Jesus as the sole source of our salvation.

Now, with that as a thought guide, you should grasp that the acts of sin we may or may not continue to commit are indicative of our inner change into "new creatures in Christ". IF we have no life change it's safe to suppose there has been no new birth! That does NOT mean a Christian is suddenly perfected but we can know that anyone who continues to commit known sin without compunction obviously has had no new (spiritual) birth and, by that fact, is NOT a Christian at all no matter what he says - or thinks - of himself.

Thing is, what we truly believe will truly impact how we live. Thus, bank robbers, drug dealers and even queers may be Christians but, if they live such sinful lives in spite of knowing what they do is an abomination to God and they still do it without care, they are doomed to hell no matter how "good" they are or how many people wrong headed agree with them. Their trip to hell will be because they failed to rightly believe and be spiritually changed from within, not specifically for where they may stick it or to whom they stick it. Meaning right heart thinking vs. "right hand living", or Christianity by the numbers trying to earn salvation by good works is human legalism. And that won't work (see Matt 7:21-24).

Some Biblically iggerant folk think God's disgust with queers is limited to a few verses in the OT. Well, the few words in the OT should be enough to make anyone think about how God views homosexuality but the many verses in the New Testament should make anyone tremble!

I cite Lk 16:13, Rom 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19 - 21 and Rev 21:8. Read them for yourself and don't accuse me of picking and cherry picking verses to support my opinion. And think of all that when trying to grade our levels of sins on a human scale of 1 to 100. (I pray the Holy Spirit will open your soul's eyes to the obvious!)

Smoke4320
06-26-2019, 02:55 PM
If you are schizophrenic and shoot yourself .. have you committed suicide or murder ?

Arkansas Paul
06-26-2019, 03:24 PM
There is always hope of salvation until you draw your last breath, after that not much chance to ask for forgiveness.

This is how I was taught growing up.
Admittedly, I'm not much on religion these days and don't really consider myself anything.
If I were still in the faith, I suppose I would say that no sin is greater than another, but suicide could be considered greater because it removes the chance of repentance.

My issue with the whole "suicide is unforgiveable" thing or a "one way ticket to hell" as I was taught (I know that really isn't the question here) is that suicide is often the result of severe, debilitating mental illness. It is often described as selfish or cowardly, but I don't buy that. Don't get me wrong, if it were committed by a sane person who simply didn't want to face reality anymore, I may agree. But for mentally ill people it is not a selfish or cowardly act. They literally are convinced in their minds that their loved ones will be better off without them. They think they are so awful or so broken that their friends and family's lives would be better without them in it. This isn't a sane, informed choice. And I don't want anything to do with a God that would take a soul as tortured as these are in life, and torture them eternally on top of it.

1hole
06-26-2019, 08:37 PM
.... This isn't a sane, informed choice. And I don't want anything to do with a God that would take a soul as tortured as these are in life, and torture them eternally on top of it.

Paul, there are a lot of supposed Biblical "certainties" spouted by lots of self appointed experts, all speaking with a personal authority born of ignorance because scripture doesn't address your hypothetical question of suicide at all and none of us have any special insight into the mind of God. So, I suggest you ignore such questions and trust God to do the right thing.

Ickisrulz
06-27-2019, 04:39 PM
Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

I cannot place suicide into the category of "Thou shalt not murder" simply because the Bible does not do so.

The command against murder was given with a specific punishment (the death penalty). A person who kills himself cannot receive this punishment so it stands to reason that murder and suicide are two different issues.

A murderer takes a life from someone else (it is the ultimate theft). A person who kills himself takes what belongs to him.

Like I said before, the Bible does not condemn suicide specifically. That being said, I don't believe suicide as a general rule is proper. But, I am not in one who has killed himself's shoes.

snowwolfe
06-27-2019, 05:15 PM
You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.

1hole
06-27-2019, 07:09 PM
You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.

Wolf, the ONLY sin that sends anyone to hell is not accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. That's a Bible fact, see John 3:17-18. And read Acts 13:39 too.

That's what the Bible says and it's clear enough. It's ONLY some odd denominational dogma that that wants people to live in constant fear of a vengeful god who lay on additional requirements of "confession" and pleading for "forgiveness" to obtain the free gift of salvation, paid for in full by Jesus' own blood. Soo ... who's kidding who?

snowwolfe
06-27-2019, 07:20 PM
Your kidding yourself.

PowPow
06-27-2019, 07:52 PM
Wolf, the ONLY sin that sends anyone to hell is not accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. And that's a Bible fact, see John 3:17-18.

It's ONLY some odd denominational dogma that adds man's additional requirements of "confession" and pleading for "forgiveness" to obtain a Christians free gift of salvation paid for in full by Jesus' own blood. Soo ... who's kidding who?

One concept I think some are speaking around is called the Perseverance of the Saints in the Westminster Confession. In short, it means if you ever received God's gift of salvation, you can never lose it. John 10:28-29 and Rom 8:28-39 are good places to start. I remember it like this: once saved, always saved.

Therefore, if one was truly a Christian, meaning they had received salvation through Christ, asking for forgiveness (or not) has no effect whatsoever on their eternal outcome. Their salvation was already determined.

1hole
06-27-2019, 09:11 PM
One concept I think some are speaking around is called the Perseverance of the Saints in the Westminster Confession. In short, it means if you ever received God's gift of salvation, you can never lose it. John 10:28-29 and Rom 8:28-39 are good places to start. I remember it like this: once saved, always saved.

Therefore, if one was truly a Christian, meaning they had received salvation through Christ, asking for forgiveness (or not) has no effect whatsoever on their eternal outcome. Their salvation was already determined.

That seems to put emphasis in the wrong place but, effectively, it's true; once SAVED - born again in spirit - we are always saved. Thing is, not everyone who claims to be saved really is (Matt 7:21-24).


Okay, Wolfe, I wonder, did you read the verses I gave you and, if so, how can you say the Bible doesn't get it right?

Confession of sins and pleas for forgiveness is your version of the gospel but where do you get it - from your denomination, your granny, a priest? Because your belief that anyone, Christian or not, is going to hell because some sin isn't confessed before dying is wrong. That simply isn't found in scripture (and the Bible is the strong foundation where most of us get our doctrine).

Don't you know that religious groups who demand that others must jump through their man made hoops and follow their inventive paths in order to earn Jesus' gift of salvation make a mockery of the gospel itself?

Adding human works of any kind for salvation voids the New Testament in Jesus' blood and those who teach otherwise are known as religious cultists! ???

snowwolfe
06-27-2019, 11:14 PM
No, I didn't read the verses you quoted. Been around for a long time and the one thing I learned with absolute certainty is the ability of a christian to cherry pick verses to suit their agenda. My opinion comes from my heart and soul.

Thundarstick
06-27-2019, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE if one was truly a Christian [/QUOTE]

I love this statement! Now, let's turn it around, shall we, after all, 2+2=4=4-2=2. If one commits suicide, then obviously he was never a Christian and is going to hell. Replace suicide with any other sin you wish.

Consider this verse: 1Jo 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Does this verse, and others like it, not teach the we have an obligation to fulfill in order to be forgiven? Doesn't " but" imply that if we don't live it, we won't be forgiven? Sin can't enter into God's presence!

I'm not the judge, God alone holds that honor, but to my way of thinking, suicide is the ultimate slap to God's face, the ultimate denial of his power, the ultimate rejection that he has a plan for your life! What if Daniel had killed himself instead of being thrown into the lions den, or Joseph rather than be a slave, and the list goes on and on! How pleased do you think God will be with you, should you decide to take yourself out of His plans? After all, we all know what's in our future, what's best for us, and we see the big picture so clearly, that we know better than GOD!

Consider the next verses: 1Jo 1:8-9
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

More works required of us? This verse doesn't say who to confess them to. But it does appear we have to "Do" or fulfill "works".

PowPow
06-28-2019, 01:48 AM
if one was truly a Christian

I love this statement! Now, let's turn it around, shall we, after all, 2+2=4=4-2=2. If one commits suicide, then obviously he was never a Christian and is going to hell. Replace suicide with any other sin you wish.

Consider this verse: 1Jo 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Does this verse, and others like it, not teach the we have an obligation to fulfill in order to be forgiven? Doesn't " but" imply that if we don't live it, we won't be forgiven? Sin can't enter into God's presence!

I'm not the judge, God alone holds that honor, but to my way of thinking, suicide is the ultimate slap to God's face, the ultimate denial of his power, the ultimate rejection that he has a plan for your life! What if Daniel had killed himself instead of being thrown into the lions den, or Joseph rather than be a slave, and the list goes on and on! How pleased do you think God will be with you, should you decide to take yourself out of His plans? After all, we all know what's in our future, what's best for us, and we see the big picture so clearly, that we know better than GOD!

Consider the next verses: 1Jo 1:8-9
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

More works required of us? This verse doesn't say who to confess them to. But it does appear we have to "Do" or fulfill "works".

You and I see things a bit differently, but the difference is not tragic. It's only a question about where the choice and power of salvation lies. I believe that I was born in the condition of sin, lost in that condition of my sinful nature, and had absolutely no escape nor way to earn myself out of that condition through any power or contribution of my being. It's called total depravity. Yes, I'm, a Calvinist. In no way am I saying that I am without sin. Far from it. My salvation from that condition came from only one place and one act - the Almighty God of the universe reached His hand into my flesh as it were and changed my heart. If not for that act, I would still be lost in my sin. With a changed heart, I am often able to see my sin, and sometimes can catch myself before I do. But, I am still a creature who sins. However, the difference is that I understand this about myself. When the time comes and God looks upon me, he will see Christ standing in front of me. If not for Christ, the totality of my sin would surely be my eternal ruin.

To flip the coin, I could be completely self-deluded, think I'm a Christian, and carry on happily through this life. Who would know differently? Absolutely there is the fruit of the Spirit and desire to do works. Those are outward signs of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit for sure, and not seeing any might be a sign. But, in the end, the Almighty will have that say for each of us. Will you approach Him with boldness and assurance at the appointed time? Will God see Christ instead of you?

Assuming one were Christian, and the answers above seem to be in the affirmative, they're still a sinner and capable of just about any sin imaginable including suicide. Suicide, however it could transpire, is likely not pleasing to God (unless, maybe, the person does a Samson-like act). That sin would still be forgiven just like any other for the same reason that a murder could be saved: Christ.

UKShootist
06-28-2019, 03:39 AM
You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.

A perfect description of the eagerness with which some 'Christians' will **** a man to the eternal torture of hell. No thought of mental illness, of stress incurred beyond endurance, of any human failing, just the sense of "I'm perfect and I'm not sharing heaven with any of that sort of scum."

Thundarstick
06-28-2019, 08:13 AM
"Suicide, however it could transpire, is likely not pleasing to God (unless, maybe, the person does a Samson-like act)."

If seems many here don't see a difference between suicide, and sacrifice. Look into how Saul died, (suicide), and Sampson, (sacrifice), Judas, (suicide). Is it suicide to charge into a fire fight if you know your under gunned, for the chance you could save your comrades? Is it suicide if a solider puts his pistol under his chin rather than be captured? Once again God's the judge, but it appears the solder had taken what is God's to take. What about the man that's been cought in a huge embezzlement that takes his life, rather than let God continue to work in that life? After all, was not a large portion of what we call the New Testament written by men either in prison or exile? What if these men had chosen suicide rather than suffering? The Bible is full of examples of God using evil for good, and suffering to bring great hope and joy. Again God's the judge, but I think there's ample proof it's very dangerous grounds to walk.

Let's please stop confusing ultimate sacrifice (selfless), with suicide (selfish)!

jmort
06-28-2019, 08:30 AM
I am not pro suicide or divorce
But I never walked a mile in anyone else's shoes
So, I see no point in stating the obvious
Everyone has sinned
We all get to discuss that with God directly
The Bible is repleate with discussion on divorce which is best avoided but not an unforgivable sin
The Bible is silent on suicide, but assuming it is a sin, and I am not say it is or is not, it is still not an unforgivable sin. No one can say it is a sin absent any such designation in the Bible, it would just be their opinion.
Worry about your owns sins if you are into condemnation

1hole
06-28-2019, 02:52 PM
No, I didn't read the verses you quoted. Been around for a long time and the one thing I learned with absolute certainty is the ability of a christian to cherry pick verses to suit their agenda. My opinion comes from my heart and soul.

Ah. You don't bother to read the scripture because your own heart and soul determines what's true or untrue no matter what scripture itself says. And, thereby, you reject all of us who dare to cite the Bible? That's an odd but interesting thought.

That mindset, i.e., man's desire to be his own god and self determine what is right and wrong, what's good vs. evil is common and old; in fact it's man's original sin. It's exactly what motivated Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because, in doing so, they expected to become like God themselves. But, their own hearts and souls were quick sand and it's still some very shaky ground for anyone to stand on my friend!

Now I'm pretty smart (just ask me ;)), but I don't believe I'm smarter than God. Well, I actually KNOW I'm not all that smart and I KNOW God doesn't care a bit what I think in my heart and soul anyway (Isaiah 55:8-9)! So, no matter what I think should be right or wrong, I'll follow God as it's written in the Bible. After all, that IS why he gave it to us!

No part of our own intense "heart and soul" theology on any spiritual question, including the eternal security of imperfect born-again believers and stumbling disciples of Lord Jesus. We don't impress God with our opinions. Man measures other men by what they can see but God measures the hearts of all men (Jer 17:10). Bottom line, the only sin that sends people to hell is failure to come to Jesus, not because they haven't confessed to sin before they died.

So, about your heart felt desire to correct or improve scripture ... well, you have company, other people do it too. BUT, they are totally adrift in really deep, dark, shark filled waters and that's really unsafe (see Prov 3:5-6)! Truth is, once we are saved, we are always saved .... including those few sick and hurting believers who are so distressed by life they chose to commit suicide. If any soul goes to hell it's because they haven't truly received Christ as Lord, not because they died before they "confessed" any sin.

I'm sure you're a good person and mean well. May God bless you and grant you true peace through a better faith and Biblical insight, sir!

snowwolfe
06-28-2019, 03:02 PM
Keep on quotin. See how easy it is to find the exact verse to back up any argument you want to?

dtknowles
06-28-2019, 03:49 PM
You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.


I am going to say it here but it applies to other responses, some that I agree with and some I disagree with. Killing yourself is a sin if it causes others more pain than it avoids. If the act is selfish it is a sin and if it is selfless it is not.

Same deal with divorce.

Tim

1hole
06-28-2019, 03:57 PM
I believe that I was born in the condition of sin, lost in that condition of my sinful nature, and had absolutely no escape nor way to earn myself out of that condition through any power or contribution of my being. It's called total depravity. Yes, I'm, a Calvinist.

Ol' John Calvin was a brilliant and Godly man but still a man; he wasn't infallible or perfect. His illumination into deep points of scripture has impacted orthodox Christianity for good than most people realize.

The "Five Points of Calvanism", including the first, i.e., "Total Depravity" came from John's followers, not from him. And misunderstanding the "Total" point has led to some 5 hundred years of harsh and unfair attacks against him. But John's followers who framed the Five Points didn't mean everyone is totally depraved in the human morality sense. They only meant the unsaved are so totally SPIRITUALLY corrupted they cannot, of themselves, even want to seek God and that's true. Thus, teaching this, they wanted everyone to credit the Holy Spirit for giving people the "want to" as well as drawing them to seek salvation by God. And, I think most believers can see that, from start to finish, salvation is only by God. I totally agree on that point with the Calvanists.

There is no special denomination, no exotic theology, no "holy" traditions, no "holy water", no unknown languages to speak, no hoops to jump through, no rings to kiss, no amount of money to be contributed, etc. and no amount of good deeds can convey salvation; it's entirely spiritual between God and each individual.

MT Gianni
06-28-2019, 03:57 PM
Currently it is possible to become divorced while not wishing it to happen. By definition suicide makes that impossible.

PowPow
06-28-2019, 08:05 PM
Let's please stop confusing ultimate sacrifice (selfless), with suicide (selfish)!

I'm not confusing it, but I see your point. It is possible to view ending one's own life in terms of self-sacrifice and self-suicide (as well as assisted-suicide). From an outside view of it, God is the only one who knows which it is and whether it was sin or not. Nothing more can be said or known about it.

That is why I continued with the further examination of one's eternal condition. If Christ stands before one in the presence of the Almighty, the words used to describe any act in their life (regardless of whether it is sinful) matter not. They are seen as justified.

PowPow
06-28-2019, 10:16 PM
Ol' John Calvin was a brilliant and Godly man but still a man; he wasn't infallible or perfect. His illumination into deep points of scripture has impacted orthodox Christianity for good than most people realize.

The "Five Points of Calvanism", including the first, i.e., "Total Depravity" came from John's followers, not from him. And misunderstanding the "Total" point has led to some 5 hundred years of harsh and unfair attacks against him. But John's followers who framed the Five Points didn't mean everyone is totally depraved in the human morality sense. They only meant the unsaved are so totally SPIRITUALLY corrupted they cannot, of themselves, even want to seek God and that's true. Thus, teaching this, they wanted everyone to credit the Holy Spirit for giving people the "want to" as well as drawing them to seek salvation by God. And, I think most believers can see that, from start to finish, salvation is only by God. I totally agree on that point with the Calvanists.

There is no special denomination, no exotic theology, no "holy" traditions, no "holy water", no unknown languages to speak, no hoops to jump through, no rings to kiss, no amount of money to be contributed, etc. and no amount of good deeds can convey salvation; it's entirely spiritual between God and each individual.

Absolutely!

1hole
06-29-2019, 10:30 PM
Keep on quotin. See how easy it is to find the exact verse to back up any argument you want to?

Quote, or at least cite references, I must. Thing is, the label says this is a "deep theology" forum; by definition theology is a study of God's words; that requires scripture. Theology is not a sharing of our deeply held human heart and soul impressions. Nice people who ignore scripture and direct their own paths to God are secular cultists, not Christians.

dtknowles
06-30-2019, 11:16 AM
………..Nice people who ignore scripture and direct their own paths to God are secular cultists, not Christians.

Religions are cults by another name. If a cult has a temple, then it is a religion.

Tim

1hole
06-30-2019, 11:54 AM
Religions are cults by another name. If a cult has a temple, then it is a religion.

Tim

???? Say what?

dtknowles
06-30-2019, 01:22 PM
???? Say what?

Religion

NOUN
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

If a cult worships a God or Gods, then it is a religion.

It does not matter that you think their Gods are false. They probably think your Gods are false.

Tim

1hole
06-30-2019, 06:24 PM
Religion

NOUN
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

If a cult worships a God or Gods, then it is a religion.

It does not matter that you think their Gods are false. They probably think your Gods are false.

Tim

Think? What does "thinking" accomplish if it's wrong thinking? There are people who "think" NASA faked the lunar landings; some think the earth is flat; some "think" medicines to cure cancer are available but suppressed; some "think" socialism can actually create a utopia for us little people and live up to its promises if we'd just let them have absolute rule us; etc. None of that is true so it doesn't matter what ignorants "think" ... or think they think. Believe whatever you will but you know it won't change the truth. My God is real, period. And he doesn't need me, you or anyone else to "think" he is real to make it true.

Think about it; no other thinking you'll ever do will be as critical for your future!

UKShootist
06-30-2019, 06:45 PM
Think? What does "thinking" accomplish if it's wrong thinking? There are people who "think" NASA faked the lunar landings; some think the earth is flat; some "think" medicines to cure cancer are available but suppressed; some "think" socialism can actually create a utopia for us little people and live up to its promises if we'd just let them have absolute rule us; etc. None of that is true so it doesn't matter what ignorants "think" ... or think they think. Believe whatever you will but you know it won't change the truth. My God is real, period. And he doesn't need me, you or anyone else to "think" he is real to make it true.

Think about it; no other thinking you'll ever do will be as critical for your future!

And there we have it. Faith is the absence of thinking. If God made us in His image then he must have left the brain out!

dtknowles
06-30-2019, 06:54 PM
Think? ……..My God is real, period. And he doesn't need me, you or anyone else to "think" he is real to make it true.…….

Better to "think" than to not "think." God is real but God is not your God. God is everyone's God. Your religion does not own God. You "think" that God prefers your religion. In your mind you might "know" that God prefers your religion and God might but I wonder how happy God is with your not "thinking." Something to "think" about if you can bring yourself to "think."

Tim

DCP
06-30-2019, 07:32 PM
Better to "think" than to not "think." God is real but God is not your God. God is everyone's God. Your religion does not own God. You "think" that God prefers your religion. In your mind you might "know" that God prefers your religion and God might but I wonder how happy God is with your not "thinking." Something to "think" about if you can bring yourself to "think."

Tim

I believe. I can never find a way to argue down you that don’t believe, but I believe in the Lord God Almighty, all knowing and all forgiving. And I believe that Good shall be triumphant in the end and that evil shall be vanquished. I believe in a hereafter.

Texas by God
06-30-2019, 08:08 PM
I am of the mind that someday we will all know the answers. Some sooner than others. My good friend took his own life two years ago, I had no clue he would. I’d like to think we’ll meet again; when I die I’ll find out.

1hole
07-01-2019, 03:51 PM
There are none so blind as those who chose to not see. A self important blind man will never know much about elephants because, at best, he only knows a little ... but thinks he knows it all! I wonder what blind men could learn if they could open their eyes and see.

This has been worth a try but I think it's burnt out now. :)

bangerjim
07-01-2019, 05:23 PM
It has been scientifically proven that marriage is the #1 cause of divorce in this country!


Divorce is not a sin. One can always ask personally for forgiveness...........if they deem it necessary.


Suicide? Well............when you're dead...........YOUR DEAD! No way to ask for forgiveness then. And nobody no how in any religion can pray you out of that mess, once you go down that dark tunnel.

Txcowboy52
07-04-2019, 08:02 PM
I absolutely agree with JonB

PowPow
07-09-2019, 07:47 PM
Better to "think" than to not "think." God is real but God is not your God. God is everyone's God. Your religion does not own God. You "think" that God prefers your religion. In your mind you might "know" that God prefers your religion and God might but I wonder how happy God is with your not "thinking." Something to "think" about if you can bring yourself to "think."

Tim

When it comes to what God thinks, our best source to check that is in His word. Let's check one of my favorite pericopes from His word about what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1-3 (ESV)

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

If that's a bit difficult to decode, let's take a look at the NLT of the same:


1 Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see. 2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation. 3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

From this, we can conclude based on God's word that faith is an exercise of witnessing what can be seen and being given the conviction to believe it came from something that we cannot see. The only "thinking" involved here is that required to understand where that conviction came from. If you have been given that conviction, you probably don't need to think too hard about who gave it to you.

So, when it comes to whether divorce or suicide are sinful, we should also consult God's thinking. God's word does provide for divorce under some circumstances, but I'm lost to find similar circumstances where suicide is okay unless you call selfless sacrifice "suicide".

UKShootist
07-10-2019, 01:55 AM
Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see.

Therein lies the weakness of the argument. If you have 'evidence' then whatever else you have its is not 'faith'. 'Faith' requires that there is no evidence.

Thundarstick
07-10-2019, 05:16 AM
You speek of blind faith. The whole point is Christians don't follow a blind faith, it's a faith with evidence.

UKShootist
07-10-2019, 11:43 AM
You speek of blind faith. The whole point is Christians don't follow a blind faith, it's a faith with evidence.

If there's evidence then it's no longer faith but science. Faith requires a lack of evidence. Foolishness IMO, but each to their own.

1hole
07-10-2019, 04:05 PM
If there's evidence then it's no longer faith but science. Faith requires a lack of evidence. Foolishness IMO, but each to their own.

I don't know where that idea got started but accusations of "blind faith" is a common idea amongst "intellectual" agnostics and atheists but it's not true, not even close.

"Faith in God" simply means we trust God for both for things we can see and things we experience but can't yet see.

Christians can hold to a weak "blind" faith in things they have not yet had proven and, over time, develop a steel strong faith in God's promises that have repeatedly proven to be trustworthy. Experienced Christian's faith (trust) grows stronger and more certain over time.

I've seen God's promised hand working in some tuff times in my life AND in the lives of others I know well so I've grown to fully trust that those promised things I've not yet seen or experienced, i.e., heaven, will also be true. So, by your definition, my faith has become scientific fact.

The only thing blind about Christian faith is those who are blind to the evidence and by faith refuse to see what's in front of them and therefore won't believe/trust in God.

I'll note that Albert Einstine (sp?) was no Christian but even he admitted to seeing clear evidence of the hand of God in the creation. Not that such "proof" matters to highly edicated innerlecsuls. :)

UKShootist
07-10-2019, 05:02 PM
I'll note that Albert Einsteine (sp?) was no Christian but even he admitted to seeing clear evidence of the hand of God in the creation. Not that such "proof" matters to highly edicated innerlecsuls. :)

I am quite happy to acknowledge the possible existence of a God. That's not a difficult leap of intellect to make. As I look around this world and read of history I fails to see any great evidence that he is a good or kind God and significant evidence to the contrary.

1hole
07-10-2019, 05:47 PM
As I look around this world and read of history I fails to see any great evidence that he is a good or kind God and significant evidence to the contrary.

You're thinking as a human and looking in the wrong places.

You have no idea what he77 on earth would be like if God were not moderating the evil effects of Satan and his acolytes today. His blessed restraining hand will be withdrawn during the rapidly coming seven years of earth's end-of-this-age Tribulation. You really don't want to be here for that and, if you should live to then, there is only one way to avoid experiencing the horrors of a world without God.

Neither God nor any Christian ever said there will be any peace or plenty in this life except on an individual basis. And even then, we live in the same sin damaged world as you so we're subject to the same troubles as you and everyone else, the difference is we have a comforting helper. I've seen God's spiritual help in the most difficult and painful experiences of my long life and in the lives of many others; it's a really cool and uplifting thing to experience and watch.

Thundarstick
07-11-2019, 05:31 AM
I can only second what 1hole is posting, but rest assured UKShootist, I respect your right to hold to, or reject, what you will. I'll only add that I have personally seen, and experienced things that are beyond scientific explanation that leads me to believe there is a power at work in this world that I attribute to the one God.

UKShootist
07-11-2019, 06:15 AM
I am content that if a man is doing good for the wrong reasons then he is still doing good.

1hole
07-11-2019, 09:08 AM
I am content that if a man is doing good for the wrong reasons then he is still doing good.

Ah, goodness. Now you posit a "fact" that is not in question, I don't know why but it looks like a dodge.

To get back on point, we are speaking of the evidence for trusting a good God, no one's challenging you 'bout how some bad men sometimes do some good things.

PowPow
07-11-2019, 09:20 AM
I am content that if a man is doing good for the wrong reasons then he is still doing good.

Interesting. This brings up in my mind several interesting questions to ponder on "good".

How does one measure goodness?
Where did that measuring system originate?
Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?
Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?
Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?
Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?
Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?

dtknowles
07-12-2019, 01:48 PM
Interesting. This brings up in my mind several interesting questions to ponder on "good".

How does one measure goodness?
Where did that measuring system originate?
Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?
Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?
Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?
Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?
Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?

How does one measure goodness?

Do we need to measure it. Isn't greater and lesser goodness close enough, it is not like a bank ledger.

Where did that measuring system originate?

Don't think there are many agree upon measuring systems.

Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?

That is a good question to ask yourself and not a good one to ask others. Hope that they ask themselves. You can do good just because it feels good, makes you happy, makes the world around you better for you and yours.

Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?

Yes, it they repent and make amends but you can't buy a stairway to heaven.

Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?

Does or can anyone know for sure or if they are sure might they be fooling themselves.

Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?

No but the idea that there are eternal conditions is an open question. Your motives are more important than the outcome if you thinking in terms of eternal conditions.

Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?

To answer that you would have to know the mind of God but I don't think any reason is good. Only good done for good reason would count if there is such as eternal life.

Tim

Hogtamer
07-12-2019, 01:59 PM
Why is the Chapel forum a haven for agnostics and atheists? They are certainly welcome to their beliefs but should they not petition the site for their own forum?

PowPow
07-12-2019, 08:21 PM
Thanks for giving it some thought, Tim. I've placed mine under yours for comparison.

How does one measure goodness?


Do we need to measure it. Isn't greater and lesser goodness close enough, it is not like a bank ledger.

Since we were created in God's image, we are imprinted with some awareness on our hearts of God's system of justice. (Genesis 3:22, Romans 2:15)

Where did that measuring system originate?


Don't think there are many agree upon measuring systems.

God (Genesis 3:22)

Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?


That is a good question to ask yourself and not a good one to ask others. Hope that they ask themselves. You can do good just because it feels good, makes you happy, makes the world around you better for you and yours.

Good works flow from us as a result of our faith, not from our own prideful and selfish acts. (James 2:14-26)

Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?


Yes, it they repent and make amends but you can't buy a stairway to heaven.

God's judgement does not work from a balance scale. When He looks upon you, does He see sin? If you stand alone, the answer is a resounding YES, ALWAYS. When Christ stands before Him on your behalf, however, He sees no sin. That's because no man has perfectly obeyed God's law, except God's son, Jesus Christ, the son of man. (John 8:28-29, Romans 8)

Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?


Does or can anyone know for sure or if they are sure might they be fooling themselves.

This one deserves a direct quote of John 3:16-18 (NIV): "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?


No but the idea that there are eternal conditions is an open question. Your motives are more important than the outcome if you thinking in terms of eternal conditions.

My answers above already cover this.

Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?


To answer that you would have to know the mind of God but I don't think any reason is good. Only good done for good reason would count if there is such as eternal life.

My answers above already cover this as well.

The answer to the questions of divorce, suicide, their sinfulness (or not), and ultimate outcome for our eternal condition lies in one place and one place only: Jesus Christ.

dtknowles
07-13-2019, 11:44 AM
Thanks for giving it some thought, Tim. I've placed mine under yours
……...

God's judgement does not work from a balance scale. When He looks upon you, does He see sin? If you stand alone, the answer is a resounding YES, ALWAYS. When Christ stands before Him on your behalf, however, He sees no sin. That's because no man has perfectly obeyed God's law, except God's son, Jesus Christ, the son of man. (John 8:28-29, Romans 8)
………………..
The answer to the questions of divorce, suicide, their sinfulness (or not), and ultimate outcome for our eternal condition lies in one place and one place only: Jesus Christ.

When you stand before God for judgement how can you be sure "Christ stands before Him on your behalf?"

I believe that God can look into your Heart and Soul and know who you are and judge you base on that. You may believe that Jesus does the same when he decides to whether to stand by our side or not.

Tim

PowPow
07-13-2019, 02:45 PM
When you stand before God for judgement how can you be sure "Christ stands before Him on your behalf?"

I believe that God can look into your Heart and Soul and know who you are and judge you base on that. You may believe that Jesus does the same when he decides to whether to stand by our side or not.

Tim

Hebrews 9:24-28 (ESV): "24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

dtknowles
07-13-2019, 03:29 PM
Hebrews 9:24-28 (ESV): "24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

Will Christ appear on behalf of everyone or only those who have demonstrated their love of God by acting according to Christ's teachings. Certainly there will be some for whom Christ will not stand..

Tim

PowPow
07-13-2019, 04:04 PM
Will Christ appear on behalf of everyone or only those who have demonstrated their love of God by acting according to Christ's teachings. Certainly there will be some for whom Christ will not stand..

Tim

Christ appears on behalf of those who God has chosen. Romans 8:28-30(NIV): "28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

dtknowles
07-13-2019, 05:34 PM
Christ appears on behalf of those who God has chosen. Romans 8:28-30(NIV): "28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

So judgement day is just a formality, our spot in heaven was determined before we are even born. It is predestined and nothing we do in this life changes that. Great joy to those who feel they have been called. Judgement is not judgement is was selection. Glory to God that he has chosen you for it was not of your doing. It must feel so good to be one of those called.

Tim

1hole
07-13-2019, 08:01 PM
So judgement day is just a formality, our spot in heaven was determined before we are even born. It is predestined and nothing we do in this life changes that. Great joy to those who feel they have been called. Judgement is not judgement is was selection. Glory to God that he has chosen you for it was not of your doing. It must feel so good to be one of those called.

Tim

Tim, you casually raise deep questions of Christian doctrine that you know little of and obviously understand less.

God knows all things and always has, he didn't need to sit around for any of us to be born so he would know who was/is "predestined" for salvation.

God finds no happiness in the death of anyone but he does not force anyone to make a decision either for or against him. Fact is, He stands at the door and knocks, no one who calls on the name of Jesus will be turned away - even you! (It's in the Book)

"Judgement Day" is badly understood, it's NOT to determine who is in and who is out; we each make the eternal "IN" or "OUT" decision for ourselves and our choice is sealed on the day our bodies die (John 3:17, 18). All Judgement Day determines is what heavenly rewards or hellish penalties we will receive for what we do in this life.

And, yeah, we who have chosen "IN" do feel good about it.

Your motives are odd. You seem determined to try to punch holes in what you know nothing of and we do. It won't work of course but I have to wonder why people who feel like you are also often determined to bother with presumed "simple minded dummies" like us.

Perhaps you're also one of the chosen and really aren't as sure we're wrong as you would like for us to believe??? :)

PowPow
07-14-2019, 08:30 AM
I had nearly all of those same questions that Tim has asked and more. They were all stuffed in my head waiting for answers. About 15 years ago a miracle happened to me. For some reason, I decided to read the Bible cover to cover. I took my time, but at the end of that journey, I had my answers. I call myself a Christian today. I go to church regularly. I became a Deacon 2 years ago. I think this happened, because God wanted to open my eyes to His purpose for me. The best source of answers I know to these types of questions now is God's own infallible word - not in my thinking. My thinking is what allowed me to stay in the dark for so long in the first place.

cainttype
07-14-2019, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=PowPow;4685696]
This one deserves a direct quote of John 3:16-18 (NIV): "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." [end quote]


(Quote)
John 3:16-18 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(End Quote)


Since words matter, which is why people find “discussing/debating” interesting...
1) Why would you think those quotes have been changed?
2) Who do you think “thought” reinterpreting them made good sense?
3) When do you think the decision was made to change the language?

When some people read the Bible with an open mind they can reasonably reach completely different conclusions from those that read it knowing the outcome ahead of time.

1hole
07-14-2019, 05:57 PM
[QUOTE=PowPow;4685696]
......Since words matter, which is why people find “discussing/debating” interesting...
1) Why would you think those quotes have been changed?
2) Who do you think “thought” reinterpreting them made good sense?
3) When do you think the decision was made to change the language?

First, words matter but Peter, Paul and John didn't speak in Shakesperian English so the words MUST be changed or we couldn't understand the Bible at all. Next, other languages have such different sentence structures that we couldn't grasp the original meanings without restructuring, and it's God's meanings that count.

I know of no Christian doctrine that's affected by the few known word and sentence changes in any mainstream Bible version since the 1611 KJV. In fact it seems the newer grammar changes alone have made the Bible a lot easier to read and much more clear! (I've seen a reprinted copy of the original KJV. Believe me, very few of us would be able to make sense out of it, those old guys talked weird!)

cainttype
07-14-2019, 08:23 PM
Dictionary defined...
Begotten: A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring. You might recognize this word from John 3:16, one of the most popular and most often quoted bible verses: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

There IS a difference, plain to see...
The original refers to God’s only son “begotten” of mankind... It does not say anything about “God’s one and only son”.
The change was implemented because honest, open-minded people knew the references to “Sons of God”, those that held council with God when Lucifer was in attendance.

A person with no prior knowledge of preconceived Biblical “facts” would have no choice but to think that there are multiple “Sons of God”, and that Jesus was the only one “begotten” by man.... That’s what it says.
Changing the text was an effort to avoid having to explain that either the text was wrong, it was some sort of unknowable mystery, the previous “Sons” were angels (or whatever mythological interpretation they might be assigned), or that somebody was changing the meaning to suit their own ideology... Your choice.

Reading the Bible in context, without prejudice, can result in honest disagreements on the meaning and purpose of much of the text... But that’s why God gave us brains, a way to think on our own without relying on “facts” (which may or may not be accurate) that are commonly quoted, or misquoted, by those that strive to convince us of their own ideology.

PowPow
07-14-2019, 09:44 PM
If we're going to debate translations, NIV would not be my first choice. Neither would the KJV. Actually, I'm a fan of the ESV, GNT, NKJV, NLT, and whatever other versions help me to understand a given part of scripture. I have 17 or 18 of them in my phone app. I tend to quote from NIV and ESV most, but you know what? Quoting from these seems to me to be on much firmer ground than simply relying on one's own thinking. Would you not agree?

PowPow
07-14-2019, 10:15 PM
Okay, so we should only quote from KJV when we're trying to spread God's word. Only genuine KJV gets the point across in the way God intended. That is absurd! Even the original Hebrew and Greek differ from scribe to scribe. The folks who do translations these days know the individual styles of each scribe, their common mistakes, and account for them. That's where the passage of time and further research have actually improved the exegetics over earlier efforts like the KJV. I do believe that NIV suffers from translation by committee. If that is your objection, you're not alone. But, that doesn't mean it is not any less the Holy Bible. If you don't like a given translation, by all means get another. Like I said, I have 17 or 18 of them on my phone alone. If you want more, you can find them easily. I find translation criticism to be pointless in this day where the Bible is so READILY available in any form, paper or electronic, language, and translation.

To anyone reading this who has not yet read the Bible: If you choose to read the Bible for the first time, just find one. Read it. Don't worry about which translation it is. There will be plenty of time to read other translations and worry about the translation differences. That is all in the noise.

cainttype
07-14-2019, 10:29 PM
You could quote from a cereal box if you wanted, but the question of accuracy goes to the closest to the original.
Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic are all known, well understood languages. There are no confusing words, just text that might confuse a reader with contradictory ideas.

The word “begotten” was no accident, why is it missing now?
The answer is irrelevant, but the truth is that the text was changed.... So something, somewhere, is wrong... period.

Ask the average Bible-quoter for a simple explanation of why Adam and Eve were ejected from The Garden of Eden, say 10 words or less, and then consider why they think the way they do.
The Bible as written is oddly confusing to too many, too often.... Why?
I think that people search for what they’ve been told is the truth, and often have to resort to “It’s a mystery” when they can’t find it... At the same time, they pass over things that seem at odds with those “truths” that they know are hidden there... somewhere... because questioning such things would be.... bad.

UKShootist
07-15-2019, 04:59 AM
If we're going to debate translations, NIV would not be my first choice. Neither would the KJV. Actually, I'm a fan of the ESV, GNT, NKJV, NLT, and whatever other versions help me to understand a given part of scripture. I have 17 or 18 of them in my phone app. I tend to quote from NIV and ESV most, but you know what? Quoting from these seems to me to be on much firmer ground than simply relying on one's own thinking. Would you not agree?

Words flavour interpretation. Here's a simple example. 'All men are equal'. A fine and noble sentiment which few would argue against in any material way. 'Equal' means 'The same', yes? "All men are the same" doesn't quite hit the same spot but we've all heard it.

The argument I read here about the interpretation of the bible remind me so much of those I heard in court for 32 years of lawyers each trying to prove their point, their points being equal and opposite! If your God is a nice chap that knows everything then he can see into your soul, and any God worthy of the name that looks into a man's soul and sees a good and honest man that has lived as good a life as well as he has been able to could not condemn him to eternal hell for simply not believing the word of man. The Bible is the word of man, this words being chosen by men from many more available, then interpreted (see above) many times over. By the same token, it is generally accepted that God has given free will to men and doesn't interfere (apart from the odd flood and destruction of cities etc) so it is entirely possible that the words written by men could be slightly false?

If you have true faith in your God then you should have faith that He will judge you according to your life. Furthermore, if He knows how each sparrow falls he surely knows everything about you already so you are already being tried and judge, the sentence only being delivered to your face at the end of it. If I was to offer any advice at all it would be (well, it WILL be, ignored!) but here it is. If you need the religious equivalent of a lawyer, i.e. a pastor, to interpret the 'laws' for you then you are done for already. I have read here of some who have changed churches because they didn't approve of the pastor they had so they went and found another. What does that say about the word of man? If you have faith, then have FAITH.

That's ten minutes of my life I will never get back!

Thundarstick
07-15-2019, 05:25 AM
I'm not sure if UKS realizes it, but he does hit on the idea of "legalism" that is so pervasive in some churches. Where one would strive to meet the letter of the law, while ignoring the spirit of the law, and miss the mark entirely! This very thing was a huge problem with the old law, where you start with 10 commandments from God, then man turns it into something not even God in the flesh could keep to the man made standard, ie threshing on the Sabbath.

The original question would then become, are we seeking to please God, because we love him, or, are we seeking to to meet the letter of the law, because we fear him and punishment? We would do well to weigh all our questions against the standard of love vs legalism.

UKShootist
07-15-2019, 05:43 AM
The original question would then become, are we seeking to please God, because we love him, or, are we seeking to to meet the letter of the law, because we fear him and punishment?

Or seeking to trump their neighbour's virtue signalling with their own? The enthusiasm of the self righteous is a terrible thing.

Thundarstick
07-15-2019, 03:10 PM
Or seeking to trump their neighbour's virtue signalling with their own? The enthusiasm of the self righteous is a terrible thing.

Perhaps I'm wasting my time with this, but perhaps you are unaware of these scriptures.
Gal 5:19-23

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

These warns us of what we shouldn't be, and what we should be seeking to be. I wanted to especially direct your attention toward the last sentence. There is no law against practicing the spiritual fruits, no matter your belief, language, or country, and I'll contend this is where humanities concept of "good" comes from.

UKShootist
07-16-2019, 06:29 AM
Perhaps I'm wasting my time with this, but perhaps you are unaware of these scriptures.
Gal 5:19-23

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

These warns us of what we shouldn't be, and what we should be seeking to be. I wanted to especially direct your attention toward the last sentence. There is no law against practicing the spiritual fruits, no matter your belief, language, or country, and I'll contend this is where humanities concept of "good" comes from.

Honest discussion never wastes time. The words "I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." appear to exclude from the possibility of heaven anyone who has lead a debauched (by some standards) life even though they may, even upon their death bed, accept Jesus as their saviour and honestly regret all those 'sins' they committed throughout their three score and ten years. Yet that saving grace of accepting Jesus is specifically promised as the only and absolute means of gaining entrance to heaven.

Once again, it descends into lawyers arguments upon religion rather than faith. All religious arguments, without exception, end with the statement "Because it says so in this book." There are so many books, each saying so many different things, each thing often having several different interpretations depending upon what the quoter wishes to 'prove'. Each book having so many people willing to go to their death rather than accept that their chosen book might be wrong. For anyone quoting religious text, they should google the term "Bias confirmation". It explains a lot.

Are we to accept that Jesus, supposedly the perfect man, a God in human form (Briefly) who knows everything about everyone already, will face a man who has lead a good and honest life by every Christian standard save for accepting Jesus as his saviour, will tell that good and decent man that he must spend all eternity in hell, suffering the agonies of that place for simply not accepting Jesus, while he holds open the gates of heaven for a mass murderer of children who found and accepted Jesus while in the condemned cell? Really? Yet this is the utter nonsense some 'book christians' will present as Christianity. Personally, I think that those so called Christians will be in for a bit of a shock come Judgement Day, if such a thing ever happens.

Where in such beliefs is the love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?

Thundarstick
07-16-2019, 07:33 AM
"Where in such beliefs is the love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?"

This is indeed a valid question to pose to followers. I'm not trying to convince you to believe, I'm just sharing why I believe. You are a free agent, as are all of us, peace be with you friend.

PowPow
07-16-2019, 08:49 AM
Honest discussion never wastes time. The words "I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." appear to exclude from the possibility of heaven anyone who has lead a debauched (by some standards) life even though they may, even upon their death bed, accept Jesus as their saviour and honestly regret all those 'sins' they committed throughout their three score and ten years. Yet that saving grace of accepting Jesus is specifically promised as the only and absolute means of gaining entrance to heaven.

Perhaps you've heard the mantra, "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior". This idea that one could choose salvation, had to choose, or needed to do anything to be saved just didn't jive with my reading of scripture. Saving faith is not something that we have a choice in. It is something we are given. Is it possible for a man living alone on an island, no contact with the outside world at all, no Bible, no direct knowledge of Jesus, etc. to be saved? Absolutely, if you read scripture. ("no" if you think he has to accept something he doesn't know about)

Salvation is a gift from God, it's not something we have a choice in. If you receive God's grace in salvation, you're not going to say "No thanks, God, I've got this on my own" to the greatest power in the universe. You can't. it is a life changing gift, and you know something has changed. It is irresistible. How did I know? It was really simply a new curiosity to learn more and more about God, His word, His plan for us, and a desire to stay close to Him. It's a different experience for everyone. If I had not received God's grace, I would probably have lived this life with me and only me at the helm, dead in my sin.

Here is a list of scripture references that I suggest you read (the first two in particular) that should completely void the "accept" idea for you, but I won't quote them here to save the Bible translation discussion round two: John 15:16, John 6:44, 1 Peter 2:2-5, 1 John 4:10, Ephesians 4:1-8.

1hole
07-16-2019, 01:42 PM
"....that saving grace of accepting Jesus is specifically promised as the only and absolute means of gaining entrance to heaven."

Perhaps you've heard the mantra, "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior". ..... This idea that one could choose salvation, had to choose, or needed to do anything to be saved just didn't jive with my reading of scripture. Saving faith is not something that we have a choice in. It is something we are given.

Only if "other" gods exist (they don't) AND if those gods have heavens of their own making (they don't) then an argument could be made that our God's way is only one of many ways. Until then, we are wise to recognise that Jesus is the only way into the God of the Bible's heaven simply because He has told us so.

Jesus' spiritual salvation is free and receiving it is a spiritual choice, not an action. It certainly isn't something earned on a sliding scale by "being good". Instead, salvation is a costly bought and paid for gift that Jesus offers to sinners (that's all of us), A declined gift has no value to anyone. God offers us a gift beyond price and our choice is to accept or decline it but it can't be earned by anything we can do.

Even a 'free" gift has to be paid for by someone who can pay the price but, for it to mean anything, even a free a gift has to be accepted. Jesus paid for the gift he now freely offers to us ... IF we will take it.

In human terms, let's say my bank suddenly and freely offers $100 million to all who want it, a magnificent gift offer that will be effective up to closing time at some unannounced later date. Those who gratefully take the gift are suddenly rich but those who ignore it, or choose to spitefully reject it, or wait too long to take it, simply won't ever receive the promised gift.

Gratefully accepting a spiritual gift really isn't an activity. And, IF we could possibly have ever earned our salvation, we wouldn't have needed it to be a gift!

No one should agonize about those who never had a chance to hear the good news, or about how some people claim to be Christian but don't show it, etc. All of that - and much more - is in God's area of responsibility; I am calmly confident he can and will deal with them fairly.

Bottom line; Each of us should be concerned about what actually applies to us. After all, we who have heard the good news of the gospel are (only) responsible for how we handle it for ourselves. I have happily chosen to take my own prepaid "spiritual gift card" and pray others will as well.

UKShootist
07-16-2019, 02:13 PM
"Where in such beliefs is the love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?"

This is indeed a valid question to pose to followers. I'm not trying to convince you to believe, I'm just sharing why I believe. You are a free agent, as are all of us, peace be with you friend.

Neither am I seeking to persuade you to abandon your belief. I refer in general to the desire to see a lot more of Christian goodness and a lot less of what I see, quite candidly, a brooding hatred of unbelievers among so many (not you).

UKShootist
07-16-2019, 02:24 PM
Much is made of God giving his only begotten son to save the world's sinners. (Please forgive the possible inaccurate words but you get the gist) This is one thing (of many) that puzzles me greatly. Jesus was one part of the Holy Trinity. As part of that holy mystery he was the Son of God, but also God Himself. If that's true then the crucifixion of Jesus was no great sacrifice at all. Jesus knew what was coming. God knew the suffering of every crucified person ever. Jesus knew for certain that he would be resurrected, as did God. In that great scheme of things that was really no big deal for either God or Jesus. Or are we saying that God couldn't cope with Crucifixion? This is a genuine query and I'm not being flippant but there is a clear and obvious contradiction in sentiments here.

jmort
07-16-2019, 03:05 PM
Wow
So Jesus being fully man, and fully God, did not have trepidation at the prospect of torture and crucifixion?????
Our Father, God in Heaven did not comprehend the ultimate sacrifice of his only begotten Son?????
The Bible make clear God's feelings about being a Father
The Bible clearly states Jesus' state of mind.
Break out a Bible, study it, and then post here.
Your post is disrespectful and insulting on every level, temporal and ultimate.

245307

1hole
07-16-2019, 05:40 PM
Much is made of God giving his only begotten son to save the world's sinners..... Jesus was one part of the Holy Trinity. As part of that holy mystery he was the Son of God, but also God Himself. If that's true then the crucifixion of Jesus was no great sacrifice at all.

Few Christians, even few educated ministers, actually understand the difference between the spiritual "Son of God" and Jesus' own description of himself as "the son of man". When the time came, the Son of God set aside his Godhood and took on flesh. Thus, Jesus was born, lived, worked and died as a man, as one of us, but without sin. So, yes, the Son of God certainly knew what his coming sacrifice would entail, a human pain that can't be described, but that wasn't the worst part.

Jesus didn't "save" us from mortal death, he died in the flesh and we will also face that. It was his short lived spiritual death while still on the cross that he has saved us from!

As a man, Jesus dreaded and sweat "as it were, great drops of blood" for the cross but also from the coming horror of total separation from all the good things of life, i.e., spiritual separation from God. THAT spiritual death was - and remains - a painful penalty worse than physical death! That separation is exactly what he was experiencing when he cried, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me!" When that awful "second death" (spiritual separation) was completed he said "It is finished!" even tho he still lived. Then, as spirit, he gave up his "ghost" and exited his body to wait for its resurrection.


Jesus knew what was coming. God knew the suffering of every crucified person ever. Jesus knew for certain that he would be resurrected, as did God. In that great scheme of things that was really no big deal for either God or Jesus. Or are we saying that God couldn't cope with Crucifixion?

Sure, in both of his natures Jesus knew - and clearly dreaded - what was coming but he did it anyway so no one else would need to. So, it was the son of man who hung on that cross AND it HURT. But even the agonizing pain of the beatings and the cross paled when he was briefly abandoned by God so don't ever minimise what that brutally tortured, very human man of flesh did for us.


This is a genuine query and I'm not being flippant but there is a clear and obvious contradiction in sentiments here.

The Bible should be our standard, not opinions or special denominational precepts. To resolve Biblical questions we need to let scripture prove scripture. A lot of well meaning "contradictions" rise from incomplete Biblical knowledge and subsequent efforts from honest human SWAGs trying to find answers to what is unknown or misunderstood. That's why we have so many denominations full of good people!

The Bible is our only faithful anchor, lose it and we're adrift in a dreadfully stormy sea of man's makings. So, where the Word is clear, and it usually is, we can be (MUST BE!) dogmatic on the critical points of Christianity but where the Word is unclear or the issue is small we all need to be more forgiving. Fact is, none of us knows it all (Sadly, not even me!) and that alone should make each of us a bit humble when opposing other folk's opinions without compelling scripture.

(Even your opinions. Well ... some of them. ;))

a danl
03-11-2020, 09:24 PM
suicide is murder of one self, premeditated at that

GhostHawk
03-11-2020, 10:02 PM
Marriage is a 3 way covenant, man, woman + god. You can say what you like, get a court order saying your divorced. But the LORD still holds his copy of that covenant, and tends to not recognise man's right to break it.

When I got married it was first time for me, second time for my wife. When the Lord called me, after a bit he called me to task for being an adulterer. Having sex with a married woman. Eventually I got around to asking him just what was required for her ex to do for him to be considered the problem. Even the Jewish people had divorce, it was just a lot harder. When I told the Lord what her ex had done he stopped calling me an adulterer. Said by rights he should have been stoned. I agreed. But I know he does not take divorce lightly.

Suicide, that too raises all kinds of problems with family not to mention self.
I consider it mostly selfish. You no longer care what heck you put your family through as long as you can end the pain that you consider unbearable.

You think that was unbearable. ROFLMAO. You ain't seen nothin yet.

But IMO there is no comparing sins. Sin is bad, period. Don't do it.

If you can't commit 150% to a marriage, don't get married.
If you lost your farm/business, debt piled high. You did it, own it. Stand up and take responsibility for it.

Suicide because of terminal cancer or untreatable pain is IMO another case entirely. But I am not the Judge, the Lord God Almighty is.

dtknowles
03-11-2020, 10:43 PM
Marriage is a 3 way covenant, man, woman + god. You can say what you like, get a court order saying your divorced. But the LORD still holds his copy of that covenant, and tends to not recognise man's right to break it.

When I got married it was first time for me, second time for my wife. When the Lord called me, after a bit he called me to task for being an adulterer. Having sex with a married woman. Eventually I got around to asking him just what was required for her ex to do for him to be considered the problem. Even the Jewish people had divorce, it was just a lot harder. When I told the Lord what her ex had done he stopped calling me an adulterer. Said by rights he should have been stoned. I agreed. But I know he does not take divorce lightly.

Suicide, that too raises all kinds of problems with family not to mention self.
I consider it mostly selfish. You no longer care what heck you put your family through as long as you can end the pain that you consider unbearable.

You think that was unbearable. ROFLMAO. You ain't seen nothin yet.

But IMO there is no comparing sins. Sin is bad, period. Don't do it.

If you can't commit 150% to a marriage, don't get married.
If you lost your farm/business, debt piled high. You did it, own it. Stand up and take responsibility for it.

Suicide because of terminal cancer or untreatable pain is IMO another case entirely. But I am not the Judge, the Lord God Almighty is.

I think there are actually two kinds of marriages. Sacramental Marriages and Secular Marriages. The latter is not an oath before God. It is just a contract between two people in accordance with the laws of the selected jurisdiction.

You seem to understand that there are two kinds of suicide as well.

Tim

Butzbach
05-04-2021, 08:17 AM
Matthew Chapter 12

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Butzbach
05-04-2021, 08:24 AM
Much is made of God giving his only begotten son to save the world's sinners. (Please forgive the possible inaccurate words but you get the gist) This is one thing (of many) that puzzles me greatly. Jesus was one part of the Holy Trinity. As part of that holy mystery he was the Son of God, but also God Himself. If that's true then the crucifixion of Jesus was no great sacrifice at all. Jesus knew what was coming. God knew the suffering of every crucified person ever. Jesus knew for certain that he would be resurrected, as did God. In that great scheme of things that was really no big deal for either God or Jesus. Or are we saying that God couldn't cope with Crucifixion? This is a genuine query and I'm not being flippant but there is a clear and obvious contradiction in sentiments here.

The agony for Christ lay not in his death however temporary but in his separation from God however temporary.

Char-Gar
05-04-2021, 12:02 PM
There is no answer to your first question. I have never seen a list of things that bother God arranged by priorities. On the human side, divorce while hard, produces less trauma on a family that suicide. I base that on 37 years as a pastor who has tried to minister to both of these issues on multiple occasions.

RickinTN
05-04-2021, 12:12 PM
Sin is sin. God hates sin, no degrees of sin.

Exactly! Hard for us to comprehend that "A little white lie" is just as bad as murder, but it is.

1hole
05-04-2021, 12:53 PM
The agony for Christ lay not in his death however temporary but in his separation from God however temporary.

My brother, you are the only other man I've known who sees that! And we can Biblically prove it to be so. Consider:

Jesus was suddenly abandoned and cried from the cross, "My God. my God, why have you forsaken me?" At that moment he - the son of man, not the Son of God - was deprived of all the good things of God that we seldom think of. And it was agony. But, God returned and Jesus could say, "It is finished." THEN he gave up the ghost (i.e., the anamating soul) so his body would die. He didn't physically die so we would not physically die because we do and will die that first death. Instead, the man Jesus was briefly abandoned by God for us so we need never experience the pain of awful separation from everything that is good.

Now no one is going to hell from not getting that straight but knowing it rightly focuses on the Lord's horrified (hellish?) cry of momentary separation from God.

Far too few believers grasp the significance of Jesus' constant reference to himself being the son of man, meaning for some 35 years he set aside his God-ship and became one of us and one with us. Wow.

Thundarstick
05-05-2021, 05:22 AM
There is no answer to your first question. I have never seen a list of things that bother God arranged by priorities. On the human side, divorce while hard, produces less trauma on a family that suicide. I base that on 37 years as a pastor who has tried to minister to both of these issues on multiple occasions.

Having now experienced both, I agree 100%!

ioon44
05-05-2021, 07:52 AM
There is no answer to your first question. I have never seen a list of things that bother God arranged by priorities. On the human side, divorce while hard, produces less trauma on a family that suicide. I base that on 37 years as a pastor who has tried to minister to both of these issues on multiple occasions.

I have experienced both also and I agree 100%!

I don't think what happens to a person matters as much as what you let it do to you. Things will make you better or bitter, choose to follow Jesus and get better.

Butzbach
05-05-2021, 08:59 AM
Exactly! Hard for us to comprehend that "A little white lie" is just as bad as murder, but it is.

Care to take a crack at this then?
Matthew Chapter 12

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Char-Gar
05-05-2021, 11:25 AM
My brother, you are the only other man I've known who sees that! And we can Biblically prove it to be so. Consider:

1. You must not know many people, because that is standard evangelical theology 101 and has been for centuries.

2. Re: My God, why have your forsaken me....I would refer you to the Psalm 22. In this case the first line is exactly the same in Hebrew and Aramaic. This Psalm begins with a great lament, but ends with glorifying God for his presence and provision. It was common practice for the Jew to quote the first line of a psalm that would incorporate the entire psalm. We do the same thing many time....i.e. A stitch in time...An apple a day....etc. etc. I would posit there is more evidence that this is what Jesus did, than the "separation from God" theological construct.

Ickisrulz
05-05-2021, 11:47 AM
1. You must not know many people, because that is standard evangelical theology 101 and has been for centuries.

2. Re: My God, why have your forsaken me....I would refer you to the Psalm 22. In this case the first line is exactly the same in Hebrew and Aramaic. This Psalm begins with a great lament, but ends with glorifying God for his presence and provision. It was common practice for the Jew to quote the first line of a psalm that would incorporate the entire psalm. We do the same thing many time....i.e. A stitch in time...An apple a day....etc. etc. I would posit there is more evidence that this is what Jesus did, than the "separation from God" theological construct.

Do you hold to the idea that Jesus was separated from God on the cross or not? I'm not sure from your answer above.

I have heard that teaching for a very long time. However, I doubt it very seriously based on the character of God and the fact I see no reason or biblical support for him to do so.

Additionally, if you look at Psalm 22, the speaker, after enumerates his troubles, and cries for help, he concludes:

"For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help."

If Jesus were quoting this Psalm, he undoubtedly knew the whole thing.

Char-Gar
05-05-2021, 12:08 PM
Do you hold to the idea that Jesus was separated from God on the cross or not? I'm not sure from your answer above.

I have heard that teaching for a very long time. However, I doubt it very seriously based on the character of God and the fact I see no reason or biblical support for him to do so.

Additionally, if you look at Psalm 22, the speaker, after enumerates his troubles, and cries for help, he concludes:

"For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help."

If Jesus were quoting this Psalm, he undoubtedly knew the whole thing.

What Jesus said on the cross is a Biblical fact. What he meant by what he said, is a theological interpretation. Theological interpretations by their very nature are human thoughts and not Biblical dictum. Way to many folks don't seem to understand the difference between human interpretation and Biblical facts.

I was not there in Jerusalem the day Jesus died. I am unable to read his mind and his intent, so I don't really have a fixed understanding. I do think that the cultural history of the Jews at the time, has at least as much relevance to understanding as human theology many centuries later. Bottom line for me, is I don't really know why Jesus said what he said, so I am not going to tell folks that I do.

My faith in Jesus does not depend or rely on such theological constructs. I am content to accept Jesus as my Savior, follow Jesus in all things and brag on Jesus at every opportunity. I will leave the man made theology to the truly wise ones and thereby avoid all the conflict and discord that has torn the "body of Christ/church" into fragments over the past 2,000 years.

I have wasted way to many years of my life on theology. It has been of little or no help to my personal faith or my ministry to others. What I/we need is "Grace" and not a correct theology and the conflict that comes with that. I am content to think and let think. We need love and not theological correction.

Addendum: There is no doubt that Jesus knew the entirety of 22nd. Psalm by memory, as did every other Jewish male and the vast majority of the women. It is part of the "Hallel" (praise God), the central core of the Jewish hymns/psalms that were committed to memory by every Jewish boy as a requirement to become a "Son of the Temple" (Bar Mitzva). The girls also learned it to become "A daughter of the Temple" (Bat Mitzva). Therefore, everybody there in Jerusalem knew the 22nd. Psalm by heart, except the Romans.

Rick Hodges
05-05-2021, 12:16 PM
From Char-Gar: "I have wasted way to many years of my life on theology. It has been of little or no help to my personal faith or my ministry to others. What I/we need is "Grace" and not a correct theology and the conflict that comes with that. I am content to think and let think. We need love and not theological correction."

Amen, and thank you Sir.

Char-Gar
05-05-2021, 12:26 PM
I don't think what happens to a person matters as much as what you let it do to you. Things will make you better or bitter, choose to follow Jesus and get better.

The Mexicans would say "puro manteca/pure lard" and the Aussies would say "true dinkum". Both mean the pure truth. I can only add Amen!

1hole
05-05-2021, 04:39 PM
Matthew Chapter 12

31 ... but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It seems the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to open eyes/ears to the truth of the gospel, i.e., the Good News, that all sin is covered by the self sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. At risk of upsetting folk who don't want to discuss "opinions" of the meanings of scripture I'll say those passages refer to effectively calling the Holy Spirit (who is NOT a "Holy Ghost", by the way) a lier. The ONLY sin that sends anyone to hell is a rejection of the truth that faith/trust in the finished work of Jesus when he cried out, "It is finished." Therefore it's clear (at least to me) that when the testimony of the Holy Spirit is called a lie it's blasphemy and there is no other sacrifice or work that matters. (See John 3:17-18)

Ref. any value comparison between sins; it's true that even the desire to sin is a sin but it's not true that all sins or sinful thoughts are "equal". Contrary to popular misconceptions, there will be no end times judgements about sending anyone to heaven or hell. The Lord's Judgement Seat in heaven will be to give rewards for good works done in the flesh. The Great White Throne punishments in the present hell will likewise be for bad works done in the flesh.

[i]If those statements are not true then the Bible is wrong and there will be no real spiritual judgement nor any eternal difference in how good or bad we have lived. But that level of nonsense is not so.


Char-Gar, as a side issue on your comments on my previous observation about "It is finished", I'm 80 and have attended church services in various mainstream denominations as far back as I can remember. I've heard dozens - maybe even hundreds - of radio/TV messages about the cross, many by some big name preachers. Every one of them has stressed the bloody physical death of Jesus on the cross, not his agonized spiritual death, as the crux of that event. Not a single message I've ever heard has stressed that Jesus work was "finished" when He said it was finished but he clearly was not then physically dead.

I won't argue about what you believe is the correct orthodox interpretation of what "It is finished" actually meant or how young and dumb I must be for not having heard of what you have heard.

Thus the floor is your's because I'm an adult Christian; it's not critical so I don't care and I have no more to say about the issue.

Char-Gar
05-05-2021, 05:55 PM
I don't base my understanding on what comes from various pulpits. That is not a reliable or consistence source of information. Every preacher is doing his own thing and that produces some pretty funky stuff at times. I don't really have an interpretation of the words of Jesus, because I can't read his mind. I only offer some cultural knowledge from Jesus's time that may or may not help folks as they try and understand.

The best piece of advise I ever received was in 1970 when I was a young Christian sensing a calling into ministry. A wise Christian elder told me: "My younger brother, always remember that theology is not God. Theology is just man talking about God.". I have always remembered.

I think I am done here, having offered what I have to the group. It is now up to individuals to do their own head scratching and praying.

.429&H110
05-12-2021, 01:33 AM
I do not base my understanding on a word from a pulpit.
We don't have a pulpit at my church.
I base my understanding on the Word of God
and how it saved me.

I saw the post of the dog that killed a toddler
so I goo-searched it, there were two last week.
Search "family dog kills toddler"
Oh, my God.
Many.
D'ya know "Why would God...?"
could also be a prayer? To ask Him?
I pray God would hold up a grieving mother.
Amen