totally flying

[kevinlz]

Hello Everyone, I just bought and took to the range a Pedersoli Quigley in 45/90. I cast 2 bullets Lee’s 405,and500 gr bullets in pure lead,side ways holes in paper at 15 yards with the 405’s and clean holes with the 500’s.At 100yards nothing on the paper.I plan to recast with 20/1 .I am guessing the lead is to soft.This was my first time with this gun,also I am using pyrodex 90gr compressed 1/4 in.Any insight to my problem would be appreciated. Thanks. Kevin

[Don McDowell]

Pedersoli's show a preference for bullets .460 diameter, check the diameters of those bullets. 16-1 will likely be your friend in most any bullet you cast for the 45-90.
Also be mindful of your fouling control, proper use of a blow tube works well with humidity above 40 %, wiping between shots below that.
.060 fiber wads under the bullet.
Lastly don't over look the value of a well proven bullet lube such as Bullshop NASA, and the long time favorites of many SPG, or DGL.

[country gent]

At 15 yds the paper should catch a lot at 100 the groups are much bigger and drop may be playing a part in no hits. 45-90 still has a rainbow trajectory. Bullet dia may be an issues What size does your 405 and 500 measure in thousandths? My pedersoli likes .460 dia ( its 45-70) but it shoots very well out to 500yds ( farthest Ive shot it).
More information would be helpful as to loading length dia of bullets

[SSGOldfart]

You might want to try Black Powder. And remember to work up your load.My 45/70 loves pure lead.

[Lead pot]

Hello Everyone, I just bought and took to the range a Pedersoli Quigley in 45/90. I cast 2 bullets Lee’s 405,and500 gr bullets in pure lead,side ways holes in paper at 15 yards with the 405’s and clean holes with the 500’s.At 100yards nothing on the paper.I plan to recast with 20/1 .I am guessing the lead is to soft.This was my first time with this gun,also I am using pyrodex 90gr compressed 1/4 in.Any insight to my problem would be appreciated. Thanks. Kevin

Where in Illinois do you shoot?
Get some help from a shooter that shoots a black powder cartridge rifle that is using black powder at your range.

Kurt

[Springfield]

Might want to try at 25 and 50 yards just to see where they are going.

[kevinlz]

My moulds are dropping.458 pure lead.Will 20 or16 to1 fill out the moulds better? I don’t belong to a club,I shooot at McMiller in Eagle,Wi.I tried multiple charges of 5 loads.Thanks

[kevinlz]

I was missing at 25,and went to 15 to get on paper. Thanks

[rfd]

fwiw, i've had 12 pedersolis with 7 of them sharps and 5 rollers, and still have a pair of sharps. i slugged all the .45's and all were .450 bore and .458 groove, sharps or roller. the thing about any gun is they're all unique as to what they wanna be fed, and it's up to us to figure that out. my suggestions are to use far better bullets than any from lee, and i recommend a lyman #457132/535gr postel and a good black powder lube ... use real 1-1/2f or 2f black powder ... standard LRP ... card wad or wads that equal about .060 ... lightly compress the wad/powder column ... use as little neck tension as possible ... create a COAL just before the rifling. bore site to 50 yards and start testing at that distance. due diligence fouling control between shots - a few wet patches and one dry patch - you can mess with blow tubes and the like later on. you have a lot of testing and learning to do, that's the fun part.

[indian joe]

fwiw, i've had 12 pedersolis with 7 of them sharps and 5 rollers, and still have a pair of sharps. i slugged all the .45's and all were .450 bore and .458 groove, sharps or roller. the thing about any gun is they're all unique as to what they wanna be fed, and it's up to us to figure that out. my suggestions are to use far better bullets than any from lee, and i recommend a lyman #457132/535gr postel and a good black powder lube ... use real 1-1/2f or 2f black powder ... standard LRP ... card wad or wads that equal about .060 ... lightly compress the wad/powder column ... use as little neck tension as possible ... create a COAL just before the rifling. bore site to 50 yards and start testing at that distance. due diligence fouling control between shots - a few wet patches and one dry patch - you can mess with blow tubes and the like later on. you have a lot of testing and learning to do, that's the fun part.

With all due respect - there is something seriously wrong here that throwing away his LEE molds is not gonna fix
heres the 405 LEE out of a Marcheno sharps @100yards - no cleaning - no blowing - only seven cuz I ran out - but can shoot a string of 12 most days without fouling out - there was a tricky little crosswind the day this was shot
241185

heres the LEE 459-500-3R out of a 1876 Uberti 45/75 (Pedersoli barrel they tell me) two separate little three shot groups at 100yards
241186
You fellers have educated me about this boolit - in the wind past 400yards it is hopeless (unstable) - but at shorter ranges - (out to 300) shoots fine
Getting a better boolit might make the difference of halving a three inch group at 100yards (I doubt even that) but something else serious and basic is haywire here
1) give the pyrodex to someone you hate and get some decent blackpowder
2) ditch the pure lead for an alloy - Don says 16:1 - mine is? I dunno, fairly soft, the boolit scratches nicely with a B pencil, almost resists a 2B - proly equivalent to half WW and half lead - a little bit of linotype in there to get some tin - I am cheap, tin is expensive;) - my boolits from the LEE molds drop at 462-ish and I size em to 460.
3) check your bore size and boolit size - Pedersolis like fat boolits
4) a decent wad to protect the boolit base 45 to 60 thou - gasket material, card, veggie wad, LDPE poly, HDPE poly, take yr pick they all seem to work for somebody.
5) clean every skerrick of lube off of the boolit base before ya load it in the case - maybe add a newsprint wad (or two) to make sure the main wad is not stuck to the boolit base
6)proper blackpowder lube - buy some SPG to start off then make yr own later if ya want.
7) weigh yr boolits out of those LEE molds and shoot em in batches by weight - you will for sure get more consistent boolits out of a more classy (expensive) mold but if they fit yr barrel and ya have em at consistent weight that Pedersoli should put em inside three inches at 100 yards as a starting point. The upside to those LEE boolits is the lube they carry - fouling issues are way less or even a non event.
8) all the tips the boys above have already told are relevant - my checklist here not in order of importance either.
You have got a darn fine rifle - just looks like ya missed something simple in the initial rash of enthusiasm - relax and enjoy it and it will figure out.

[kevinlz]

I am going to cast 16/1 alloy and mic them,hopefully they will be larger.Also I didn’t put a wad under the bullets.A question about pyrodex,I use pyrodex in my green mountain lrh barrel and use a hollow base 405 gr bullet,and group 1in at 100 yds open sights, does pyrodex act differently in a cartridge?

[semtav]

does pyrodex act differently in a cartridge?

No, Only on these forums !!!! :kidding:

[Don McDowell]

I am going to cast 16/1 alloy and mic them,hopefully they will be larger.Also I didn’t put a wad under the bullets.A question about pyrodex,I use pyrodex in my green mountain lrh barrel and use a hollow base 405 gr bullet,and group 1in at 100 yds open sights, does pyrodex act differently in a cartridge?

I have a friend that the only thing his Marlin 93 in 38-55 will shoot worth a poop is Pyrodex select. I tried Pyrodex a long time ago when it first came out and that stuff liked a lot of compression, I don't know if that compression thing has changed or not as I was never able to see any real benefit to it.
Bullet diameter with grease grooves it's best to match that with the diameter of the chamber lead and throat. Dick Trenk who was the Pedersoli US representative several years back, came up with a bullet design that measure .462 diameter that worked well in those rifles.

[indian joe]

I am going to cast 16/1 alloy and mic them,hopefully they will be larger.Also I didn’t put a wad under the bullets.A question about pyrodex,I use pyrodex in my green mountain lrh barrel and use a hollow base 405 gr bullet,and group 1in at 100 yds open sights, does pyrodex act differently in a cartridge?

I think you have it sorted - alloy boolit and a wad under

Take the base plug off that LEE 405 mold and turn the tit off it so it makes a flat base boolit instead of the hollow base - works better with a wad.

Pyrodex ? Just need to be more particular with your cleaning with pyrodex than with black (they told us the opposite years ago when it came on the market)

[rfd]

if yer loading groove lubed bullets over black powder, you don't need 16:1 alloy. you need good cast 20:1 or 30:1 properly lubed bullets. as in the arrow is more important than the bow, the cartridge/bullet is most important - start with a known good one that's won matches and cast carefully. the rest is in that cartridge build and its adjustment according to what it and yer rifle tells you via POI. you have proper component builds to make and work to do at the range.

[Don McDowell]

Strange thing is quite a few of the folks winning matches these days using a proven bullet are using 16-1 alloy.. Or a blend of wheel weights, and lino or antimony and pure lead to come out with an alloy similar in hardness to 16-1 or even Lyman #2.. Large charges of powder such as cartridges bigger than the 45-70 use do much better with harder alloy.
Interesting reading in the old ammunition catalogs when they describe the alloy of the bullet..

[rfd]

when bullets are flying sideways, it ain't its alloy composition. best to start with basics and work up a load.

[Don McDowell]

Yup , such as using a wad under the bullet, and good fouling control, and making sure the bullet isn't so small that it allows gas cutting etc, so it's not filling the throat with large deposits of lead.

[rfd]

Yup , such as using a wad under the bullet, and good fouling control, and making sure the bullet isn't so small that it allows gas cutting etc, so it's not filling the throat with large deposits of lead.

241233

[Washington1331]

I'd be interested to know if you're witnessing any leading in your barrel. That's a surefire sign of either gas cutting, or if you're using too soft of an alloy.

Also if I remember correctly, I read a bunch of comments about pyrodex exhibiting poor consistency in pressure and velocity when compressed more than 0.125" to .25". Like others have said, I recommend switching to real black powder for both accuracy as well as life span of your rifle. I've seen Pyrodex turn a beautiful rifle into a tetanus inducing sight in a very short time.

[kevinlz]

Last night I checked out my barrel for rust,and found none,but some lead,not very much mostly specks.Cleaned all the lead out .Thanks for your ideas.It will be a little while until I get to shoot again.I will come back and let you guys know what happened,and hopefully I'll have good news. kevin

[enfield]

sideways 45 bullets at that range only means one thing, its a 50-90

[kevinlz]

I just checked the barrel it says 45/90 and the cleaning jag for a 45 is tight with a patch.

[greenjoytj]

The OP says he’s cast his own bullets so here’s a bit of bullet casting information copied from the Redding/SAECO catalog that might help to increase a cast bullet diameter.

Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this catalogue are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal.
Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights.
This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp.
Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast from wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.
Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the alloy’s antimony content.
The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.

In the information given above SAECO mentioned the alloy’s antimony content being used to vary the bullets diameter. It’s my understanding the adding Tin will cause the alloy to fill out in the mold like antimony. Tin is more expensive and doesn’t ramp up the bullets BHN as fast as adding antimony which may be a good thing if your trying to keep the BHN down and still get good mould fill out. I also know that varying casting temperatures changes bullet weight which is probably the dia. changing.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle !
Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spred (ES) in a long string of shots.
With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford. (Extract from Pedersoli factory)


A perfect match for the taper (progressive depth rifling) in the Pedersoli barrels. I have 5 Pedersoli Sharps, a Hiwall and an 1886 sporting rifle. All use a boolit which is 0.002 larger than the bore, cast 1:40 and unsized There is no doubt about the accuracy achieved even with the 50/70 firing 500gn cast.

https://i.imgur.com/7Rj84YX.jpg

[kevinlz]

greenjoytj, I cast some bullets last night,and thought about what you said about the heat of the lead affecting the bullet size,so I cast some cooler lead and the 405's cast at 458,459 in size.I did use a 20/1 mix this time.I will also be wadding the cartridges as others have stated.

[Chill Wills]

greenjoytj, I cast some cooler lead and the 405's cast at 458,459 in size.I did use a 20/1 mix this time.I will also be wadding the cartridges as others have stated.

If the bullet is a hollow base - you might think again about putting a wad under it IF looking for accuracy.