Question about BP in 45-70.

[Babbott213]

My experience in loading BP loads is minimal at best. I plan on loading 45-70 with BP for my Trapdoor. Now I’ve loaded a lot of 45-70 for my Marlin Guide Gun, but that was all with smokeless. The only BP Cartridge loads that I’ve loaded has been for my Winchester 1873 lever and that has been very little. So, now to my question. I had someone suggest to load a reduced 45-70 load with BP of 60 grains by volume of FFg, place a lubed wad on top of the powder and then to fill the space above the wad with cornmeal so the bullet will compress the cornmeal and powder so as not to have a air space. So is this a sound load? I have the Lyman BP loading manual, and it gives a load for 45-70 of 60 grains of FFg, but never mentions a filler above the wad. Just wanting to get some thoughts on this. This person I know has loaded a lot with BP, but sometimes I’d rather get a second opinion too. I’m fixing to order the SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer book as well, as I’ve heard it’s a very good book for loading.


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[Drydock]

http://www.4570book.info/ How to load to Milspec ballistics, how to use the sights as designed.

[rfd]

that'll work, though i preferred to use multi wads instead. you could take up lots more space with a lube cookie that'll also help with fouling control.

why the requirement for a "reduced" bp load? what weight bullet?

wad stack for a PPB cartridge ...

241077

[Babbott213]

that'll work, though i preferred to use multi wads instead. you could take up lots more space with a lube cookie that'll also help with fouling control.

why the requirement for a "reduced" bp load? what weight bullet?

wad stack for a PPB cartridge ...

241077

It’s mainly just for the first time shooting this old gun mainly. Don’t want to start off with a high recoil load. I’d rather start out with a reduced load and then work my way up, if that makes sense. The bullet is 405 grain.


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[Babbott213]

http://www.4570book.info/ How to load to Milspec ballistics, how to use the sights as designed.

Thanks for the link Drydock. I’ll be ordering those books. [emoji106][emoji106]


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[Deadeye Bly]

Don't put a lubed wad down on the powder. If you use a lubed wad put it between a hard card wad and the bullet. Use another thin wad between the lubed wad and the base of the bullet to keep the lubed wad from sticking to the bullet. Don't leave an airspace in the case, fill it with wads or a filler such as cream of wheat, corn meal, etc.. Black powder burns best with max loads that produce the highest pressure. I know you may find it hard to believe but you will get less fouling with more powder. To get good ignition and a good pressure spike you will need to crimp those 405 grain bullets. The stock design of trapdoors lends it to offhand shooting best. On the bench or prone the felt recoil will be more pronounced. Use one of the recoil reducing sissy pads for a more enjoyable shooting session. Have at it!

[Babbott213]

Don't put a lubed wad down on the powder. If you use a lubed wad put it between a hard card wad and the bullet. Use another thin wad between the lubed wad and the base of the bullet to keep the lubed wad from sticking to the bullet. Don't leave an airspace in the case, fill it with wads or a filler such as cream of wheat, corn meal, etc.. Black powder burns best with max loads that produce the highest pressure. I know you may find it hard to believe but you will get less fouling with more powder. To get good ignition and a good pressure spike you will need to crimp those 405 grain bullets. The stock design of trapdoors lends it to offhand shooting best. On the bench or prone the felt recoil will be more pronounced. Use one of the recoil reducing sissy pads for a more enjoyable shooting session. Have at it!

Thank You Deadeye. Looks like I’ll be starting out with this reduced load and then work my way up from there. Looking forward to shooting this ole’ girl. I’m not looking for accuracy at the beginning. First I want to feel her out and see how she shoots first and then from there, start loading for accuracy so I can take her to long range targets.


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[rfd]

there isn't going to be that much perceived recoil difference tween 60 grains of bp under 405 grains as with 66 grains of bp under 405 grains. there is no need for reduced loads, period, not with those differences just mentioned. there is no need for books or whatever, this bp load stuff is too simple because it's not smokeless. so don't waste yer time, figure out yer COL before the rifling with a dummy cartridge and load up from there. use a card wad or two and light compression for starters. don't complicate, keep it simple. FWIW, that PPB load i posted above is 66 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under that 404 grain slick. it's a pussycat load that i used to win 200 yard matches using a .45-70 rolling block.

[indian joe]

I shoot a 405 grain LEE boolit with a 60 thou wad over 63 grains of black - loaded to magazine rifle overall length - aint any spare room to take up with that combo - the boolit does have really big lube grooves and is 1.040 long -- loaded round in a starline case is 2.562 - cycles nice in my Chiappa 1886 and loads front band just a touch off the lands in my Marcheno sharps.
7 shots at 100 yards this afternoon at out local BP club (load testing, shot for group not score) - the bloke on next door target said that is more of a weather report than a load test ???? well its a nice group but for the wind. 241095.

You might squeeze another three grains in but its a nice load as is

[Gunlaker]

I wouldn't bother with the lube wad. If you do, then compress the powder before putting that in or you are likely to squeeze the lube down into your powder. I don't imagine there will be too much extra space for wads anyway. Your bullets will probably sit 0.5-0.6" into the case. Add a couple of 0.060" veg wads and you are probably there.

Like RFD says you won't see much difference in recoil anyway when going up a few extra grains. The bullet weight is what will affect recoil the most.

Chris.

[jbutts6785]

I have found no need to use lube wads or fillers in .45-70 for a trapdoor with the Lee 405 grain bullet. Just 65 or so grains of FFG and a card wad pre-compressed so the bullet will seat to the proper depth. A good black powder lube is a must, and mine shoots best with the bullets as cast, not sized. Also, a blow tube is a must or accuracy will start to drop off after a half dozen or so shots and chambering will get difficult. It shoots good out to 300 yards. It shoots better with the 500 grain round nose, but recoil is much stiffer.

[rfd]

I have found no need to use lube wads or fillers in .45-70 for a trapdoor with the Lee 405 grain bullet. Just 65 or so grains of FFG and a card wad pre-compressed so the bullet will seat to the proper depth. A good black powder lube is a must, and mine shoots best with the bullets as cast, not sized. Also, a blow tube is a must or accuracy will start to drop off after a half dozen or so shots and chambering will get difficult. It shoots good out to 300 yards. It shoots better with the 500 grain round nose, but recoil is much stiffer.

right on the money, sir! 241115

to the OP - make up a dummy round to find a decent COAL, fill the primed case with black powder to the depth of the boolit, add a card wad of any kind, compress to the depth of the card wad, seat the properly greased 400 grain boolit. this load will not offer a lot of recoil. but if yer at all concerned with recoil, wear a shoulder pad, or add a kick killer butt boot, and shoot all day and all night.

[Larry Gibson]

http://www.4570book.info/ How to load to Milspec ballistics, how to use the sights as designed.

I also highly recommend that book. I explain my development of more accurate 45-70 BP loads for the TD in this thread;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

[Babbott213]

Thanks for the information everyone. I was able to check the COL length today and it seems pretty deep to me, but that’s what it came out to anyway. I took a case and opened the mouth up just till I could get a bullet to begin to seat. I pushed it about half way down with my press and then inserted it into the breach and closed the trapdoor pushing it the rest of the way home. Removed it and measured, and it measured out at 2.660”. I repeated this about 6 times and it varied from 2.660”-2.664”. The bullets I’m using, this comes just about at top of the edge of the last lube groove. I’ll probably be changing to a different bullet later on anyway as I have yet to slug the barrel. That will be the next thing I do, but I’m out of town for the next three weeks for work starting tomorrow, so it will have to wait for now.


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[indian joe]

I have found no need to use lube wads or fillers in .45-70 for a trapdoor with the Lee 405 grain bullet. Just 65 or so grains of FFG and a card wad pre-compressed so the bullet will seat to the proper depth. A good black powder lube is a must, and mine shoots best with the bullets as cast, not sized. Also, a blow tube is a must or accuracy will start to drop off after a half dozen or so shots and chambering will get difficult. It shoots good out to 300 yards. It shoots better with the 500 grain round nose, but recoil is much stiffer.

Whats going on with the chamber fouling ? starline brass?????

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Babbott213;4640843]Thanks for the information everyone. I was able to check the COL length today and it seems pretty deep to me, but that’s what it came out to anyway. I took a case and opened the mouth up just till I could get a bullet to begin to seat. I pushed it about half way down with my press and then inserted it into the breach and closed the trapdoor pushing it the rest of the way home. Removed it and measured, and it measured out at 2.660”. I repeated this about 6 times and it varied from 2.660”-2.664”. The bullets I’m using, this comes just about at top of the edge of the last lube groove. I’ll probably be changing to a different bullet later on anyway as I have yet to slug the barrel. That will be the next thing I do, but I’m out of town for the next three weeks for work starting tomorrow, so it will have to wait for now.

Makes sense to me - I shoot that same LEE boolit - same position in the case - I milled about ten thou off the nose of it and my OAL is 2.562 - ten less than yours - my mold drops .460 - .461

[Wayne Smith]

Don't know Joe, but the Army found that they had to crimp the 405 bullet to get complete powder burn - the 520 bullet has enough inertia to accomplish this by itself but the 405 doesn't. He's using the 405 and doesn't mention crimp.

[jbutts6785]

Whats going on with the chamber fouling ? starline brass?????

Not in the chamber itself, but just ahead of the chamber at the origin of the rifling. It isn't so bad with the 405 grain bullet and its shorter nose, but has been a problem for me with the 500 Govt style grain round nose. Brand of brass doesn't seem to matter much. I have used Starline, WW, Remington, and Federal, all with decent results.

[JSnover]

Not in the chamber itself, but just ahead of the chamber at the origin of the rifling. It isn't so bad with the 405 grain bullet and its shorter nose, but has been a problem for me with the 500 Govt style grain round nose. Brand of brass doesn't seem to matter much. I have used Starline, WW, Remington, and Federal, all with decent results.

Same thing happens with my rolling block. The fouling is in the throat, so things can get sticky after a few shots as the nose and the forward band get close to the lands. I just wipe between shots.

[jbutts6785]

Same thing happens with my rolling block. The fouling is in the throat, so things can get sticky after a few shots as the nose and the forward band get close to the lands. I just wipe between shots.

Yep. That works too.

[Don McDowell]

Hard fouling like that in the throat is a pretty good sign of not enough pressure. Up the charge to 70 grains and that problem will likely not be so bad.

[Washington1331]

+1 on Spencer Wolf's 45-70 book. It's got a plethora of information on the original black powder loadings. I've had great luck with a modified Trapdoor Carbine loading using FFFg Goex. If you're looking for a high volume shooting load, I recommend using a lube cookie in the cartridge to help keep the fouling soft and manageable.

Normally what I use on my Trapdoor for reduced loads is Spencer's recipe. The only difference is I put a piece of wax paper over the powder and use the eraser end of a pencil to push it down on top of the powder. I then put a .25" lube cookie into the case, and then a .060 card wad on top. Again I use the pencil to push the whole kit and caboodle down onto the wax paper wad. Then I seat a lee 405-HB boolit on top. The only issue is this recipe may not feed reliably into a lever gun as the COAL is significantly shorter than the standard 45-70 round, as to ensure proper compression.

I've had good luck in using wax paper to separate my powder column from my filler to prevent migration in light loads. That might be something that you might want to try. Either way I recommend using a good amount of lube to keep your fouling soft as the use of the filler may increase the level of fouling in your barrel.

[rfd]

spence and pat's trap door book is required reading for owners of the old warrior.

[Babbott213]

Don't know Joe, but the Army found that they had to crimp the 405 bullet to get complete powder burn - the 520 bullet has enough inertia to accomplish this by itself but the 405 doesn't. He's using the 405 and doesn't mention crimp.

I put just a slight crimp on the brass so as to keep the bullet in position.


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[indian joe]

Don't know Joe, but the Army found that they had to crimp the 405 bullet to get complete powder burn - the 520 bullet has enough inertia to accomplish this by itself but the 405 doesn't. He's using the 405 and doesn't mention crimp.

hmmm - I'm using FFFg under mine and a little crimp - have not encountered this problem (difficult chambering after a few shots) in any of my 45's - have had a tiny bit of soot down the side of the case using un annealed starline brass -

[indian joe]

Not in the chamber itself, but just ahead of the chamber at the origin of the rifling. It isn't so bad with the 405 grain bullet and its shorter nose, but has been a problem for me with the 500 Govt style grain round nose. Brand of brass doesn't seem to matter much. I have used Starline, WW, Remington, and Federal, all with decent results.

that ole roundnose is a bore rider in most rifles - not much room for soot I guess ?

[country gent]

I have found when you get to the "sweet" spot on compression for the powder load that the burn becomes more efficient and fouling goes down and becomes easier to manage. Slowly upping the charge will find this point. along with the most accurate load

[Babbott213]

So I finally got the old lady “My 1884 Springfield Trapdoor, not my wife.” And put 5 rounds down range. I put the reduced loads to the side and loaded up 5 rounds with 70grains of Goex 2FF topped with a 405 grain Missouri Bullet #1 Buffalo. Man it felt good to finally fire some BP through this old gal. Now to load up more and work on hitting at 100 yards plus. I plan on ordering some 405 grain soft cast hollow base from Buffalo arms and give those a try also. I’ll also be working with some different powders as well to see which loading works best for me. Thanks for all the help. I know I’ve been away awhile. After I posted last, work was going very busy along with the work travels and then this pandemic hit and I worked from my home office in my house, so I stayed very busy there as well this whole time, so I’m just getting able to do a little gun stuff again and it feels so good! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/6ba27fb986495c80714fbc79e2939fbf.jpg


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