Which is best in a .357 for ACCURACY? .38 spl cases or .357 magnum?

[Lance Boyle]

I have been loading swaged and cast wad cutters in .357 cases in .357guns. (Python, m28,m19, m586).
I started doing that long ago to avoid a crud ring with unique. I get ok accuracy but my eyes aren’t what they were, but I still play with loading. Only recently have I been loading .38 spl cases with SWCs.


In your opinion....which, .38 cases or 357 has the most potential for accurate target speed loads? Not bunny farts or +p, just good light to medium loads.

One is loaded out long to the chamber while the 38 has some jump. On the flip side the .38 cases has the powder charge fill better with less airspace.


Comments!

[reddog81]

It would take a shooter who’s better than 99% of the shooters out there to tell any difference. The jump through the forcing cone is larger than the difference between a .357 and a 38. Unless you’re shooting 90 grain bullets or something smaller the bearing surface is long enough that it’ll span the gap between the case and he throat.

[onelight]

Trigger time will show you what your guns like best.
I am probably not a good enough shot to tell unless there is a drastic difference.
All things being equal I would use 357 cases for the same reason you did.

[NSB]

My experience has been that the longer case almost always shoots better. I no longer even bother loading any 38spl cases. In the .357max it's even more noticeable.

[stubshaft]

357 Mag. less boolit jump.

[Outpost75]

.357 case, trimmed to 1.275" to ensure uniform crimp.
Primer pockets and flash holes uniformed with No. 2 long center drill and fixed depth stop.
Remington 1-1/2 primer hand seated in a clean primer pocket to -.005" below flush
Remington or Winchester factory swaged HBWC 148-grain component bullet.
Case mouth expanded to .3585" diameter for 1/2" back from case mouth for snug fit with .360" factory wadcutter bullet, unsized.
3.5 grains of Bullseye, 452AA, WST or TiteGroup in .357 case.
Seat bullet to 1.31" overall cartridge length in .357 brass.
Taper crimp to .375" diameter at mouth, only enough to remove mouth flare, not enough to deform bullet.

In a Bob Collins, Bill Davis or Jim Clark PPC gun with 12" or 14" twist Douglas barrel should shoot sub 1-1/2" at 50 yards.

In stock Colt Python or S&W Mod. 27 should shoot sub-2 inches.

I DO NOT USE UNIQUE. It's larger particle size does not meter uniformly on Star or Dillon machines.
It also does not burn completely in low-pressure loads <14,000 psi as are produced with .38 wadcutter.

MUCH better are Bullseye, TiteGroup, 452AA, WST, Clays, 231 as acceptable, but not best choice.

[Lance Boyle]

Wow, that is good group shooting. I can about do that at 25....on a good day.


Haven’t tried factory component hbwc just the swaged swc from Hornady.


I have lots of starline .357 cases but came into the .38s recently so I have been trying them.


WST is my new favorite.

[rfd]

use a case that's commensurate with the gun's intended cartridge.

[Walks]

I use Hornady .38cal 148gr HBWC in worn out .357mag cases over 3.5grs of Bullseye. With W-W Small Pistol Primers.

I've never been able to cast a W/C as accurate as a swaged HBWC.

And I've tried H&G, RCBS, LYMAN, OHAUS and even Lee. Hollow base & solid. Swaged bests them all. And I tried very hard when I was young, with good hands and perfect vision.

[Outpost75]

Hornady, Speer, Precision-Delta produce groups in my best loads that Remington or Winchester would do about 2" at 50 yards from tuned PPC gun, vs. <2" with Winchester or Remington bullets loaded similarly.

Carefully cast Saeco #348, FBI Quantico backstop scrap, weight sorted +/- 0.5 grain, real fussy visually inspected, loaded with the sprue-cut FORWARD would nearly approach the Remington factory component bullet IF lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, loaded as-cast and unsized [.360"+], seated and crimped in separate operations using Redding profile crimp die. Martini-Cadet action with .38 AMU chamber, Green Mountain 20" twist full bull barrel shot off return-to-battery rest would average <2" ten-shot groups at 50 yards for long series of 50 rounds.

[Forrest r]

Nothing says you can't load bullets long in the 38spl cases to use in the 38spl's or 357's.
https://i.imgur.com/h3YS3YJ.jpg?1

38spl cases with the mihec 359-640 bullet loaded long/crimped in the bottom crimp groove. The H&G #50's are loaded real long/tight fit in the cylinder throats.
https://i.imgur.com/Daxlniz.jpg

Those plinking loads pictured above did these 6-shot groups @ 50ft. They are not hand picked/cherry picked by any means. Nor are they 50yd targets either. Simply the targets used that day to test 38spl plinking loads in a 686.
https://i.imgur.com/vrmI4za.jpg

What you're trying to do is get the nose of the bullet into the throat of the cylinders, doesn't matter if your using 38spl cases or 357 cases. A picture of a cut-a-way cylinder with 2 reloads in it. The top/crimped reload is the factory recommended oal. The bottom reload is testing the bullets oal moving it out into the throat of the cylinder. If you look closely at the picture you will see a gap between the bullets shoulder and the walls of the cylinder with the top reload. The bottom "test" load has no gap, the shoulder of the bullet is in the throat of the cylinder.
https://i.imgur.com/cXoGpNh.jpg

Just something to try with your 38spl cases

[sandog]

Outpost, do you have to buy an extra seating die to taper crimp ? I thought revolver dies sets are roll crimp only.

[bedbugbilly]

All I load is cast - and I have both 38 spa. and 357 revolvers. I'm to a competitive or serious target shooter but I have played around with serif the various boolits I use out further in a 38 case to shoot in 357 -for me, I don't really notice much difference so will commonly just use 38 spa cases for both 38 and 357 - I like a good mild to medium load and really have no use for a 357 full power load. Yep - there is "bullet jump" but I've never noticed much difference in accuracy - heck - I load both 38 Colt Short and Long brass and shoot 'em in my 38 and 357 revolvers and they are accurate - as well as being accurate in my 357 Handi. A good cleaning after shooting and I don't worry about crud buildup since I keep chambers clean. I use Unique once in a while but usually use BE or RD. The only "rule" I follow is if I am shooting a revover and am going to shoot say 38 Colt Long and hen some 38 specials or 357 without cleaning first - use the longer cartridges first and then switch to the shorter.

As far as loading a WC out further in the case - I often carry a Smith Model 36 - for SD loads, I use a 160 gr. WC and load it out further in the casing - they are accurate and hard hitting. I just follow the load data for a 160 ish gr. boolit and load it to the same COAL as a 160 gr. lead RN or similar. They shoot just as accurately out of my 357 as they do out of my 38. Just my experiences and YMMV. I'm sure that every revolver has their own "quirks" so IMHO - it's what works best for you.

[243winxb]

This with a wad cutter
the .38 cases has the powder charge fill better with less airspace.

Using Bullseye powder. Some powders are case-sensitive. More so in 357 mag brass.

[onelight]

Outpost, do you have to buy an extra seating die to taper crimp ? I thought revolver dies sets are roll crimp only.
The Lee 4 die set comes with taper and roll crimp dies.
The 2 cases on left are crimped with seating die , two on right with factory crimp die.
241102
This is a recently purchased 38\357 4 die set.

[Outpost75]

Outpost, do you have to buy an extra seating die to taper crimp ? I thought revolver dies sets are roll crimp only.

I seat and crimp separately using a dedicated taper-crimp die for wadcutters.

[725]

As above, you can just get taper crimp (Leefactory crimp). Don't set your seater to crimp the cartridge, but rather crimp in a separate stage. I've found the Lee to improve functionality, also. No cartridges that are too fat to chamber :)

[Lance Boyle]

Great points all around guys.

I have been experimenting with new powders beyond my old standards or BE and W231. Clays was one because I had it from shotgun loading. WST I bought a 4 pound jug when I could find little else.

My goal was easy flow through the Dillon measure, accuracy, not too much crud in light loads to get under the ejector. I had problems downloading unique and AA5. They need to be up there to be clean.

I wanted a near bullseye shooting load to enjoy. I picked up the hornady swaged bullets to try to tighten the groups. Not sure any bullet will fix my shooting for bullseye, but that’s the goal, to get better.

[Lance Boyle]

I have been using factory Dillon dies, I actually picked up a second set of their old style to keep set up for .38 special. I have a metal lathe and could turn a longer expander for wad cutters.

The taper crimp die for .38 would probably help too.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have been using factory Dillon dies, I actually picked up a second set of their old style to keep set up for .38 special. I have a metal lathe and could turn a longer expander for wad cutters.

The taper crimp die for .38 would probably help too.

Lathesmith, a member of this forum, can make an excellent powder through expander (powder funnel in Dillon parlance) for the Dillon powder dies. The powder funnel is a game changer for loading cast bullets, including wadcutters. You can ask for the dimensions you want but essentially the key is an expander that expands the case to a larger diameter and to a greater depth in the casing. Add to that a Lyman style "M" die "step" to help align the bullet in the casing and you'll have an outstanding set up.

If you have a lathe and some suitable round stock, you could probably make one yourself. It's not a complex part.
If you'd rather have one made, Lathesemith's work is top notch and I highly recommend him.

[Conditor22]

Lee 358-158-RF 13 bhn PC'd sized .358 seated to the crimp groove
over Lyman #4 max 2400 load in 357 cases, 1 hole group at 50 yards out of an IMI Timberwolf.
I quit testing :)

[wv109323]

I think you can get excellent accuracy with both. I think the difference will be so insignificant that you can not tell the difference shooting off hand. The .357 cases will eliminate chamber cleaning.

[RED BEAR]

I would have to say 357 cases. But will also say i seriously doubt you could tell the difference. I certainly don't shoot good enough to.

[StrawHat]

I competed in PPC for about 14 or 15 years. Shot good enough to get into and stay in the Governors 20. My main competition revolver was a Davis built S&W Model 64 with a slab sided barrel and a bunch of stuff not seen. My Distinguished Revolver was a S& W Model 686 with a 6” barrel.

I shot reloads in practice and Federal factory for competition until the day I realized my practice scores were equal or perhaps an X higher than competition. Some of that is normal but after a year, I just went with reloads. I used a cast DEWC in 38 Special cases. I do not recall the lube but I only lubed and groove. Primers were CCI and cases were degraded by head stamp, I believe I used Federal in competition. I seated the boolits long to get into the throats.

The point I am trying to make is the scores with the 686 (chambered in 357) were good enough that at some point I retired the Davis gun and just shot the 686. So, at least in those two revolvers, three decades ago, the 38 Special case shot great from the magnum chamber.

Kevin

Today, either of those revolvers would tire me out!

[Lance Boyle]

Lathesmith, a member of this forum, can make an excellent powder through expander (powder funnel in Dillon parlance) for the Dillon powder dies. The powder funnel is a game changer for loading cast bullets, including wadcutters. You can ask for the dimensions you want but essentially the key is an expander that expands the case to a larger diameter and to a greater depth in the casing. Add to that a Lyman style "M" die "step" to help align the bullet in the casing and you'll have an outstanding set up.

If you have a lathe and some suitable round stock, you could probably make one yourself. It's not a complex part.
If you'd rather have one made, Lathesemith's work is top notch and I highly recommend him.

His work is very good, I bought items from him before, star size dies from him before I bought the lathe. I have been contemplating making the special wad cutter powder funnel, I have the tool steel rod stock on hand. It’ll be easier than the custom expander I made for my RCBS .38-55 cowboy dies. One of my first projects beyond fooling around. I admit it took me three tries to get the threads right. Anyone need a .382 expander with reverse threads? Yea, I did that.