This is why I reload...

[Idaho45guy]

Bought a new carry pistol last month and finally had some time to try some reloads in it last week and yesterday. Bought some American Eagle 165gr ammo to establish a baseline for accuracy and was disappointed in the results.

Then tried some of my recipes and was amazed at just how much the groups improved.

Still not as accurate as I'd like and will be trying some Speer Gold Dots next.

240412

[slughammer]

Nothing wrong with 2" at 20 yards with a midsize 40. Is that a 4.25 slide or?

The factory 165's can be pretty snappy. 4 shots look acceptable. Was that group typical, or did you only shoot 1 group with that ammo?

[Ozark mike]

I've personally never liked the accuracy of any of the autos I've shot. never could accept the accuracy. I guess I'm going to have someone to teach me. I remember rolling a soda can at 100 Yard's with my s&w da .22 with 4in bbl

[RED BEAR]

I have found autos to be every bit as accurate as revolvers. And thats some pretty good shooting. My eyes aren't what they used to be so if i keep all rounds in head and heart area of silette target i am happy.

[Idaho45guy]

Nothing wrong with 2" at 20 yards with a midsize 40. Is that a 4.25 slide or?

The factory 165's can be pretty snappy. 4 shots look acceptable. Was that group typical, or did you only shoot 1 group with that ammo?

I shot several groups and all were under 2" at 20yds with the best being 1 5/8". That is the 3.5" barrel. It's a gen 1 M&P before S&W made it the same size as the Glock G19. I like the trigger and accuracy of the gen 2.0, but wanted something more compact.

At 20yds, I should be getting 1" or better groups, compared to my other semi-auto pistols. My Glock G29 will do an inch at 25yds.

[Dieselhorses]

That IS a good difference compared to the American Eagle ammo! A little tweaking and I bet you can close it up more! But that is a classic example of the control we have with bullet placement.

[dverna]

Any stock pistol that will hold 2” at 20 yards is to be treasured. They are rare.

Not many people can achieve that kind of precision with iron sights....so mass produced guns are good enough for the vast majority of shooters.

Most of the gun rags show 3” or greater groups for these types of pistols at 25 yards.

I had two Clark pistols that would shoot under 3” at 50 yards but not if I was shooting them...LOL. Had to put them in a Ransom rest to get that. And those guns cost a lot more than a mass produced pistol.

I45Guy, be realistic in your expectations. 2” groups at 20 yards with $500 pistols are not good....they are great!!

[Ozark mike]

Any stock pistol that will hold 2” at 20 yards is to be treasured. They are rare.

Not many people can achieve that kind of precision with iron sights....so mass produced guns are good enough for the vast majority of shooters.

Most of the gun rags show 3” or greater groups for these types of pistols at 25 yards.

I had two Clark pistols that would shoot under 3” at 50 yards but not if I was shooting them...LOL. Had to put them in a Ransom rest to get that. And those guns cost a lot more than a mass produced pistol.

I45Guy, be realistic in your expectations. 2” groups at 20 yards with $500 pistols are not good....they are great!!


Im not saying anything about anyones aim or skill so don't take this the wrong way. but I expect better accuracy from my weapon's than alot of these that roll off a mass produced assembly line. I mean isn't that the reason for owning guns That kill.
I don't count my bfr as a ordinary pistol but I had a s&w .22da 4 in bbl on a good day all 6 shots would go onto a soda can @100 yds my bfr will do the same with iron sights. Granted those are the only pistols that I've owned that could do that. I've also seen some pretty accurate Blackhawks and my father even owned a c&b that was pretty outstanding @ 75 yds. I test all my firearms @100 yds and beyond if I can't hit a human head size target @ that distance reliably I cease to own it. I know a lot of ppl test there pistols at close range which is fine I don't mean any disrespect I just prefer 5 moa or better offhand and a max of 3 from the bench for my pistols. Those groups were better than all the auto pistols I shot so looks like your on to something. I thought about a Ruger Mk2 or something to see how much accuracy can be pulled out of it my uncle had a mk1 that had potential

[Budzilla 19]

I once bought a Sig Sauer P250 multi-caliber pistol from a fellow who said it was horribly inaccurate!! He bought it for his gf and only shot it about 75?? Rounds maybe? We made the deal, I cleaned the pistol, out to the range for some B27 target testing. At 21 yards it would put all 13 rounds of .40 S&W in a 3” group! Holy cow!( that was a good day) .357 Sig barrel was even better after I learned double action( it’s a DA only gun) a little better! Cast boolits and reloads,it will shoot for me!! If your reloads shoot that good, in that particular weapon,I think you might have a keeper. This my opinion only. Good luck to you.

[charlie b]

Im not saying anything about anyones aim or skill so don't take this the wrong way. but I expect better accuracy from my weapon's than alot of these that roll off a mass produced assembly line. I mean isn't that the reason for owning guns That kill.
I don't count my bfr as a ordinary pistol but I had a s&w .22da 4 in bbl on a good day all 6 shots would go onto a soda can @100 yds my bfr will do the same with iron sights. Granted those are the only pistols that I've owned that could do that. I've also seen some pretty accurate Blackhawks and my father even owned a c&b that was pretty outstanding @ 75 yds. I test all my firearms @100 yds and beyond if I can't hit a human head size target @ that distance reliably I cease to own it. I know a lot of ppl test there pistols at close range which is fine I don't mean any disrespect I just prefer 5 moa or better offhand and a max of 3 from the bench for my pistols. Those groups were better than all the auto pistols I shot so looks like your on to something. I thought about a Ruger Mk2 or something to see how much accuracy can be pulled out of it my uncle had a mk1 that had potential

That means you can consistently hit well within the 10ring of an NRA target. How long did you compete?

[FergusonTO35]

I think factory .40 S&W ammo is garbage, for the most part, and American Eagle was for years the cheapest domestic ammo you could buy. It's still pretty close to the bottom. My Glock 22 really likes the Lee 401-175-TC over 4.2 grains Bullseye, and I bet your Shield would too.

[dverna]

Im not saying anything about anyones aim or skill so don't take this the wrong way. but I expect better accuracy from my weapon's than alot of these that roll off a mass produced assembly line. I mean isn't that the reason for owning guns That kill.
I don't count my bfr as a ordinary pistol but I had a s&w .22da 4 in bbl on a good day all 6 shots would go onto a soda can @100 yds my bfr will do the same with iron sights. Granted those are the only pistols that I've owned that could do that. I've also seen some pretty accurate Blackhawks and my father even owned a c&b that was pretty outstanding @ 75 yds. I test all my firearms @100 yds and beyond if I can't hit a human head size target @ that distance reliably I cease to own it. I know a lot of ppl test there pistols at close range which is fine I don't mean any disrespect I just prefer 5 moa or better offhand and a max of 3 from the bench for my pistols. Those groups were better than all the auto pistols I shot so looks like your on to something. I thought about a Ruger Mk2 or something to see how much accuracy can be pulled out of it my uncle had a mk1 that had potential

No offense taken at all!!!

I know my abilities...or lack of them...LOL.

I have seen a lot of people shoot, and many in competition as I have done a bit of that with all the platforms. Most people are not nearly as good as they think they are. Competitive shooting demonstrates that as the "fliers" and misses count.

My most accurate pistol was a High Standard .22. 50 shots into just under 1.5" at 50 yards using match ammo. We never shot 5 shot groups for accuracy testing. It was done with the Ransom rest as shooting 50 rounds is an ordeal and then you have the "pucker factor" as the last few shots are fired and do not want to spoil the group. In my experience, even a well tuned 1911 cannot match the accuracy of a good .22 target pistol.

I also do not wish to disrespect anyone. Many people read these threads. They should know that reports of exceptional performance are just that....EXCEPTIONAL. The average gun does not shoot very well but then neither does the average shooter.

My standards are much lower than yours but I believe more realistic. 3" off a rest at 25 yards is good for a stock CF semi-auto pistol. To put things in perspective, the Les Baer pistols that shoot 2 1/2" to 3" groups at 50 yards (5-6 MOA) cost well over $2000. Not saying an off the shelf gun cannot do it...but it is exceptional and not the norm.

Again, no disrespect, but your standard (3" at 100 yards) would have people getting rid of perfectly acceptable pistols. Most of us cannot shoot well enough anyway. For self defense, which is what the OP guns are for, 50 yards is a very long shot.

You are an accomplished pistol marksman; most people are not. You need (want?) to make a head shot at 100 yards; most could not make the shot anyway. Again a matter of perceptive.

BTW, I used to hate those plastic guns as I was an old school 1911 guy. They will never shoot as accurately as a 1911, but I now carry plastic guns. I need reliability, magazine capacity and a longer heavier trigger when my adrenaline is pumping. Ultimate accuracy is of minor concern at the ranges I will ever encounter. 3" at 25 yards is adequate.

[str8wal]

You are an accomplished pistol marksman; most people are not. You need (want?) to make a head shot at 100 yards; most could not make the shot anyway. Again a matter of perceptive.

If you claim personal defense for a 100 yard headshot, at least in this state, you are likely going to be on the wrong side of the courtroom. Most folks carry pistols for self defense and 3moa or even 5moa isn't a prerequisite for most in that realm. For competition shooting 3moa would be a legit goal, but that isn't usually done with short barreled plastic pistols. It's all about application.

[Idaho45guy]

If you claim personal defense for a 100 yard headshot, at least in this state, you are likely going to be on the wrong side of the courtroom. Most folks carry pistols for self defense and 3moa or even 5moa isn't a prerequisite for most in that realm. For competition shooting 3moa would be a legit goal, but that isn't usually done with short barreled plastic pistols. It's all about application.

My primary carry gun was the same gun I used in competition in GSSF (Glock Shooting Sports Foundation) matches.

My G19 is capable of under 2" groups at 25yds using a rest and very slow and calculated firing...

240429

But when I go to a match, That same 25yds, with 15 seconds to fire each 10-shot group, off-hand, with a timer beeping and people watching, results in a 12" group...

240431

I figure the same thing happens during self-defense shooting; your group sizes increase exponentially when under stress. So I strive for my carry guns to have the smallest groups possible in order to reduce the effects of the mechanical limits of accuracy.

[rintinglen]

I can ride the trail with Idaho on this one.
Unless you spring for the top of the line target ammo, you cannot expect great results. Whitebox, brown box, whatever; low budget cheapies don't measure up. When I can load top of the line for the same cost as the discount stuff, or load cast which is still better than the general run of ammo and costs even less, I am foolish not to.

I had two fairly recent experiences to back this up. My brother had a Colt Agent 38 (which I own now) that he could not get to group with any of the ammo he had on hand-and he had a bunch of factory ammo. I bought the gun off him, and took it too the range with one of my favorite boolit hand loads. Take am MP 359-640L and load it over 3.8 grains of Bullseye. 6 shots, standing, single action could all be completely covered by a silver dollar. The second one occurred when my son in law and I went out to shoot his newly acquired Paraordnance p-12. It jammed repeatedly with PMC hard ball. I told him to try some of my H&G 68 clone stuff. His gun ran perfectly after that.

Attention to detail, a modicum of mechanical skill and there is no reason why one's reloads can't be the equal of anybody's and better than most.

[Idaho45guy]

Whitebox, brown box, whatever; low budget cheapies don't measure up. When I can load top of the line for the same cost as the discount stuff, or load cast which is still better than the general run of ammo and costs even less, I am foolish not to.

Just before heading to the cabin to do some shooting, I stopped by the only LGS in the area for some ammo. That "cheap" crappy American Eagle was $20.99 for a box of 50. The only other "cheap" .40 S&W ammo they had was Blazer Aluminum at $17.99 a box.

Should have gone out of my way and stopped at WalMart. Haven't bought .40 S&W factory ammo for a while, but I buy my Hornady XTP bullets there for $19.99 for a box of 100.

.40 S&W brass is around $30 for a bag of 100. Usually I can buy a couple of boxes of 50 .40 S&W loaded cartridges for less than the brass costs alone.

[Ozark mike]

Yes I understand self-defense does not happen past 20 yds usually unless your hickok. I'm not into competition I have been shooting since I was the age of 5 I carried a rifle all through the southern woods shooting all types of game before I was even a teenager and I used to shoot countless rnds a day my dad made sure of that. First thing I did when the military handed me a rifle was score a marksman medal with a m16 which i hated don't care for em at all.
Also my left eye is going. so it is getting harder to do right eye is still good

[Idaho45guy]

I'm not into competition I have been shooting since I was the age of 5 I carried a rifle all through the southern woods shooting all types of game before I was even a teenager and I used to shoot countless rnds a day my dad made sure of that. First thing I did when the military handed me a rifle was score a marksman medal with a m16 which i hated don't care for em at all.


Competition separates the men from the boys.

I thought I was the greatest shooter ever. I joined the military and qualified expert on every weapon I picked up.

My groups with pistols are hard to beat, and I outshoot every one of my shooting buddies which include SWAT guys and former Marine National Pistol Team members.

Then I started shooting in GSSF and struggle to score in the top 3 and have never gotten a perfect 500 score.

There is a man there that is in his late 60's who shoots a fist-sized group consistently with his modified Glock G19.

It is indeed humbling.

You will never know how truly good you are until you compete against others in an official capacity.

It was eye-opening for me.

[Ozark mike]

I have nothing to prove I just want accurate weapon's if there not accurate there no good to me. I say we get back on the ops topic we can start a new thread for this discussion later

[FergusonTO35]

I can ride the trail with Idaho on this one.
Unless you spring for the top of the line target ammo, you cannot expect great results. Whitebox, brown box, whatever; low budget cheapies don't measure up. When I can load top of the line for the same cost as the discount stuff, or load cast which is still better than the general run of ammo and costs even less, I am foolish not to.

I had two fairly recent experiences to back this up. My brother had a Colt Agent 38 (which I own now) that he could not get to group with any of the ammo he had on hand-and he had a bunch of factory ammo. I bought the gun off him, and took it too the range with one of my favorite boolit hand loads. Take am MP 359-640L and load it over 3.8 grains of Bullseye. 6 shots, standing, single action could all be completely covered by a silver dollar. The second one occurred when my son in law and I went out to shoot his newly acquired Paraordnance p-12. It jammed repeatedly with PMC hard ball. I told him to try some of my H&G 68 clone stuff. His gun ran perfectly after that.

Attention to detail, a modicum of mechanical skill and there is no reason why one's reloads can't be the equal of anybody's and better than most.

Exactly! My shooting time is limited as it is, why not make the most of it? Even with factory bullets/boolits, one can almost always improve on factory.

[FergusonTO35]

Competition separates the men from the boys.

I thought I was the greatest shooter ever. I joined the military and qualified expert on every weapon I picked up.

My groups with pistols are hard to beat, and I outshoot every one of my shooting buddies which include SWAT guys and former Marine National Pistol Team members.

Then I started shooting in GSSF and struggle to score in the top 3 and have never gotten a perfect 500 score.

There is a man there that is in his late 60's who shoots a fist-sized group consistently with his modified Glock G19.

It is indeed humbling.

You will never know how truly good you are until you compete against others in an official capacity.

It was eye-opening for me.

I gave up competing with others years ago. Numb fingers and a worsening essential tremor mean the only shooting companions I can beat have names like Ray Charles and Ronnie Milsap. Instead, I just go for familiarity with my guns and loads, consistent groupings even if on the large side, and avoiding really bad errors.

[charlie b]

I just know that my guns shoot better than I do. Some have had to be modified to do so, like my old 1911. Others, like the Python, not so much. It has always shot better than I. And, yes, I can hit clay pigeons at 100yd, just not every shot or even every other shot. I only qualified expert on the military weapons, pistol (1911), rifle (M14 and M16), machine gun (M60) and even as an M60A1 tank gunner and commander. I am not that good a shot.

And, yes, the stress of competition really shows what we are capable of. Just like any other skill, adding stress changes things a LOT.

And yes, cheap ammo has never shot well for me. But, factory match ammo usually is close to my handloads in accuracy most of the time. The reason I reload is cost. I just can't afford factory match ammo.

[str8wal]

My G19 is capable of under 2" groups at 25yds using a rest and very slow and calculated firing...

Which equates to 8moa and an acceptable standard for a plastic pistol.

[Burnt Fingers]

Just before heading to the cabin to do some shooting, I stopped by the only LGS in the area for some ammo. That "cheap" crappy American Eagle was $20.99 for a box of 50. The only other "cheap" .40 S&W ammo they had was Blazer Aluminum at $17.99 a box.

Should have gone out of my way and stopped at WalMart. Haven't bought .40 S&W factory ammo for a while, but I buy my Hornady XTP bullets there for $19.99 for a box of 100.

.40 S&W brass is around $30 for a bag of 100. Usually I can buy a couple of boxes of 50 .40 S&W loaded cartridges for less than the brass costs alone.

Do they grease ya up and give ya a reach around when you buy that .40 S&W brass at that price?

New Starline brass https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/40-SandW-Brass/ $0.184 each
Once fired brass http://www.diamondkbrass.com/.40-S-and-W-1000.html $0.03 each, or 10X less than what you're paying.