.38S&W Leading problems Help

[Argentino]

Pictures below are from an old (circa 1909) Colt Police Positive chambered in .38 Colt New Police/.38 S&W.

After 25 shots I´ve noticed leading over the topstrap above the forcing cone (over the fouling cup these old revolvers have). No leading in the barrel; just over the fouling cup.

I was shooting light loads (2.0 grains of HP38 under a 148 gn. WC boolit- Lyman 358495 at around 450 fps)

Boolits were sized to 0.359" since bore is 0.358" (tight for a .38S&W). The throats however are somewhat larger at 0.363".

I guess this might be related with boolits sized at .359" which are OK for bore dimensions but are too small for throat dimensions (0.363")

Any help regarding what might be causing this type of leading (and how to clean it) will be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Argie.

[onelight]

You may be getting some flame cutting from loose fit of bullet to the throats I am sure someone has a better idea but I take a 22 mag case flatten out the mouth and use it for a scraper to remove the heavy lead buildup on the top strap and around the barrel and the front of the cylinder I would think it would have leaded also.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?

What lube?

[FergusonTO35]

Does this happen with other powders? HP-38 can produce crusty gray fouling that looks like that. Was shooting some 9mm yesterday with this powder, and noticed a fair amount of silver-gray "leading" on the lands of the bore after 20 rounds. However, accuracy was superb and some no. 9 and a quick pass with the brush removed it.

[Argentino]

You may be getting some flame cutting from loose fit of bullet to the throats I am sure someone has a better idea but I take a 22 mag case flatten out the mouth and use it for a scraper to remove the heavy lead buildup on the top strap and around the barrel and the front of the cylinder I would think it would have leaded also.

Thanks for the input. Using a .22 case as a scraper sounds like a good idea: I´ll try that.

And yes, the front of the cylinder is also leaded. I thought they were just burn rings but I´m seeing some leading there too.

[Argentino]

What alloy?

What lube?

Larry,

I´m using 90%Pb + 10% Lino. Sized at 0.359" and tumbled lubed with BLL´s. Lyman#358495.

I miked the barrel at 0.358" so I thought of using this mold (almost no sizing required, since 0.359" is the "as cast" diameter for this particular mold and alloy).

But all throats are 0.363" so maybe this is where the leading is coming from.

Thanks

[Argentino]

Does this happen with other powders? HP-38 can produce crusty gray fouling that looks like that. Was shooting some 9mm yesterday with this powder, and noticed a fair amount of silver-gray "leading" on the lands of the bore after 20 rounds. However, accuracy was superb and some no. 9 and a quick pass with the brush removed it.

I´m afraid I did n´t have the chance of trying other powders yet. This is the first time I reload for this revolver.

I´m used to HP 38 in other calibers and I agree with you: it burns dirty and leaves considerable fouling. However I´m pretty sure that what appears in pictures is lead, since I managed to remove some particles of it from the fouling cup and yes, it is all lead.

Thanks,
Argie.

[reddog81]

I'd size the bullet as large as possible up to .363. The barrel will size the bullet down to .358 without issue.

If the leading is limited to the area shown in the pictures, it's really of little concern and more a visual nuisance than anything else.

[35remington]

Try a .363” bullet if possible and see what happens.

[Ozark mike]

I run my revolvers at or over chamber dia even if bore dia is smaller. You may even pick up some accuracy

[Larry Gibson]

Argentino

Since there's no leading in the bore it appears to me, as you surmise also, the leading is from gas cutting around the bullet in the cylinder throats. You might try using just plain Pb alloy or find some tin and mix a 40-1 alloy. The linotype has to much antimony, even at that low amount. At the low pressure of your load the bullet isn't obturating at all. A double coat of BLL or a single coat of LLA should be sufficient. Upping the powder charge to 2.4 or 2.7 gr HP38 may also help to obturate the bullet a bit.

[Walks]

I use an old Ideal 1cav #358311. Unsized lubed with 45-45-10, cast with LINO. Drops at .361

This works well in both my OLD H&R breaktop and S&W M&P 5" surplus. Never measured the cylinder mouths or slugged the bore of either revolver.

A Cowboy Shooter friend gave me the mold and a bottle of what I think was liquid alox about 25odd yrs ago. Told me about the unsized tumble-lube for the 1st time. Gave me 100rds of ammo.

And I proceeded to lose the bottle of lube between the range and home. So I just shot the rounds he gave in Sidematches using my Grandmother's H&R .38S&W breaktop. At 20ft they shot dead on with a light load of BullsEye.

Never cast any until I learned about the benefits of Tumble-Lube after joining CBA.

The bullets dropped .361 and TL'ed don't shoot as well in the old Smith. Plan a good polish of the bore and getting a hollow based mold from N.O.E. in .361+Dia.

Those should shot very well in the old M&P. But I gotta measure the chamber mouths first.

When I find the time.

Good Luck with yours.

[mattw]

BTW, that is not an excessive amount, but it is not a trivial amount either. I have an old 32 Short that will do that as well, it is a timing issue with the gun and is not worth fixing as it has no blue left and has a bunch of external pits. Was not stored properly for only God knows how many years.

One thing not mentioned... measure you cylinder gap with a feeler gauge. That old girl may have a lot of wear in the front side. As suggested by others, when the cylinders are that large you will really want to find a bullet that fits the cylinder properly. With proper lube they will pass thru the barrel and leave minimal lead and may even shoot better. Another thing... the timing could be off a little and causing some misalignment at time of firing. Read up on it, and you will see how it affects the pistol.

I decide what size bullet I will use in a revolver by test fitting them thru the cylinder. I really like a front side fit that requires at least minimal pressure to fit them thru the chamber. It can be a pain, for example, I shoot 4 different 38's and 4 or 5 different 357's. I have to size some to .358, .3595 and .360. But, it really does help with accuracy when this is done correctly. At least you do not have the flip side where the chamber is much tighter than the bore, then you have to have the chambers worked on.

[243winxb]

Cast with linotype/lead 50/50 , lube , no sizing, unless larger then . 363"

.359" ain't never gonna bump up to .363" lol

Pulled bullet from old factory round.

[DougGuy]

OP I think you answered your own question in the last of your original post. You know the throats are .363" and the boolits are admittedly .359" and you are shooting very light charges, not enough pressure to obturate the boolit to the throat, but plenty enough to push burning gases past the sides of the too small boolit, here is where your leading is coming from. The reason it doesn't lead the bore, is because it is just large enough to seal once it makes it into the bore.

Your throat diameters pretty much dictate what diameter boolits you would need to fill them. I would size to a light drag fit in the throats and shoot the thing..

Apologize to Larry Gibson I hadn't seen his post until I posted mine, but hey says about the same thing right?

[243winxb]

You alloy is soft.

[Outpost75]

I have a great deal of experience loading for the .38 S&W in 1920s era Colts and S&Ws, Webley & Scott, S&W Victory and Ruger India contract models.

Throat fit is vital. So is soft alloy and soft lube which can coat the bore. If you do not have a mold that drops not smaller than .362" in 8 BHN 1:40 tin-lead alloy, the easiest solution which works is to use factory, soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC bullets from Remington or Speer. Lube these with 45-45-10 or Lee Liquid Alox on top of what is already on them. Use RCBS .38 S&W Cowboy dies and seat bullet out to 1.20 OAL, crimping in top lube groove, with 2.7 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 3 grains of 231, HP38, 452AA, or WST or 3.5 grains of Unique, Universal or AutoComp. What you are doing is loading a .38 Special wadcutter charge in a .38 S&W case. The hollowbase bullet will upset to fill the cylinder throats and the load will be accurate and not lead.

Otherwise, buy a mold from Accurate that "fits", Tom has a bunch suitable for .38 S&W.

240395240396240397240398240399240400240401240402

[243winxb]

The antimony in linotype will increase bullet diameter as bullets drop from the mould.

[Outpost75]

The antimony in linotype will increase bullet diameter as bullets drop from the mould.

Yes, but less than 0.001", more like 0.0003-0.0005" and hardness will exceed 10 BHN so bullets will not seal and therefore will lead.

[243winxb]

SAAMI maximum PSI for the 38 S&W is 14,500 . The alloy has to be strong enough so the bullet doesnt encounter Plastic deformation. :guntootsmiley:

[Forrest r]

Seeing this thread reminds me of a mold I haven't used in years. A Raphine 150gr hb fn mold that casts a 150gr fn bullet that has a hollow base and +/- .361" diameter bullet with range scrap. A picture of them sized to .359"

https://i.imgur.com/9BbDifk.jpg

[DougGuy]

The antimony in linotype will increase bullet diameter as bullets drop from the mould.

By how many tenths of a thousandth? And how many weeks/months shelf time for this growth? He needs thousandths, not tenths.

[243winxb]

Any chance there is some Bismuth in the OPs "lead"


DougGuy By how many tenths of a thousandth?

Increase about .0018" or more , using antimony.


From Redding-

Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.

[georgerkahn]

For what it's worth, I have two revolvers chambered in .38 S&W/ Colt N P. The S&W Victory was a chronic "leader" similar to yours, which I resigned myself to it being "the nature of this revolver". Bore had slugged at 0.359", and I was shooting my-cast un-sized bullets cast at this diameter. I later traded a rifle for a Colt Official Police in Colt N P, which came with 40 rounds of ammo. I shot 20 in the Colt -- zero leading, so I thought, "hmmmm -- what will these do in the Smith?". First, however, I pulled a bullet, and they measure 0.361"! Going back to range with the Smith, I shot fifteen rounds with alllmost zero leading! For *me*, this may in fact have been the solution to my leading problem. I could not find a 0.361" mould, so I ordered and received one from Buffalo Arms -- they in-house use CNC machinery to make quite the gorgeous looking product from SAECO/Redding blank blocks. Mine is a 2-cavity, and I have yet to use it -- anxiously waiting for a dry, warm day to go out to garage and cast. BUT, my "bet" (actually, super-hope) is that my cast .361" bullets will also prove lead-free. As an added note, Graf & Sons purveys Missouri cast bullets in .361" -- https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/21168 -- which I'd look into if I had not the mould, .361" sizing dies, etc.
Just a thought or two -- good luck! For lead removal, I've used a bit of copper Chore Girl wrapped on a used brush... and/or a Lewis Lead Remover tool.
geo

[mattw]

I second Missouri Cast Bullets. Here is a link to the size you really would need. BTW, they will sell direct at a decent price and always check their sale page. They also will sell small sample packs, good way to test a mould before you buy it!

http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=29

[243winxb]

And how many weeks/months shelf time for this growth? He needs thousandths, not tenths.
Sized bullets after many years dont grow in diameter. I tested it. Alloys with Bismuth may grow.



A sizing die marked .358" can produce bullets of different diameters. Near pure lead will be smaller after sizing.
Linotype will be be larger after sizing.
Harder alloys spring back more after coming out of the sizing die.

Oven heat treated bullets, water cooled, , with 2% antimony will change hardness over about 2 weeks. Diameter does not grow.


The OPs bullets need more diameter first, then maybe a harder alloy around 12BHN 50/50 lube should work.

Have a great day. Time for me to go shooting. [smilie=s:

[Outpost75]

SAAMI maximum PSI for the 38 S&W is 14,500 . The alloy has to be strong enough so the bullet doesnt encounter Plastic deformation. :guntootsmiley:

Your "plastic deformation" is what allows bullets of correct hardness to obturate and make a positive gas seal in the cylinder throats, which prevents the gas lancing leading mechanism the OP is talking about. Hard, undersized bullets are the cause of most leading. Factory swaged lead bullets in the .38s are fully cold worked and recrystallized grain structure of about 3% Sb content, seldom exceeding 8 BHN, similar to 1:40 tin-lead in our usual air cooled castings. Hard bullets are neither necessary nor recommended in standard pressure loads below 16,000 psi.

[9.3X62AL]

I always reserve the right to be wrong in matters like these involving varying alloys, obturation, and effects of pressure on those alloys. I don't have a strong scientific base upon which to make assessments, either. I only know what I have seen and learned over 38 years of casting and shooting.

Cast bullets MUST FIT THE THROAT(S) of the involved firearm(s). Every other element of the equation lines up behind that requirement. Loose bullets lead bores and firing environments--well-fit bullets do not. Smokeless powder impulses cannot be relied upon to "bump up" lead bullets, excepting the hollow-based designs spoken of in earlier posts. Too-tight expander spuds can defeat your attempts to size bullets properly, esp. using softer alloys--MAKE SURE that your expander spud isn't reducing bullet diameters. MOST MODERN DIE SETS ARE STRONGLY-BIASED TOWARD JACKETED-BULLET USAGE. Be a carpenter--measure twice, cut once.

Throats vary widely in this caliber--one of mine is .359" (Colt PP), another is .361" (S&W Reg. Pol.), and two are .363" (S&W M&P and Webley-Enfield). The first two use an NOE copy of Lyman #358477 that drops at .362" and cleans up in a .361" H&I die, the last two use a 202 grain NEI #169A that drops at .364+ and cleans up completely in a Lyman .363" H&I die. I use a combination of dies from an RCBS Cowboy 38 S&W set and an RCBS T/C 9mm Makarov die set to create ammunition for this caliber. (The Maks vary, as well).

[DougGuy]

Sized bullets after many years dont grow in diameter. I tested it. Alloys with Bismuth may grow.

Well, I'm truly sorry you are as misinformed as you are, but you are.

Cast boolits *do* grow in diameter as they age harden, depending on the antimony in the alloy, some will grow very little, others will grow enough that when newly sized, are a light drag fit in cylinder throats, but loaded ammo with the same boolits won't chamber in a month because the boolits are larger. Been there, done that, with MY OWN 44 SBH. Customers have sent me boolits along with cylinders that were sized when cast, and they are miking larger. 500 S&W and 475 Linebaiugh, 480 Ruger, where boolits are quite long for caliber, will grow exponentinally more than a shorter fatter boolit. Got some 500 S&W WFN boolits, they were .5015" up .0015" from when they were sized some months previously.


A sizing die marked .358" can produce bullets of different diameters. Near pure lead will be smaller after sizing.
Linotype will be be larger after sizing.
Harder alloys spring back more after coming out of the sizing die.

All true yes, but the SAME forces that give harder alloy more springback than softer alloy? Are the very same forces that causes diameter to GROW as they age...


Oven heat treated bullets, water cooled, , with 2% antimony will change hardness over about 2 weeks. Diameter does not grow.

If you say so. I never tested or measured oven heat treated boolits, and never use them in my loading experiences.



The OPs bullets need more diameter first, then maybe a harder alloy around 12BHN 50/50 lube should work.

Everyone has said his boolits need to fit the throats. There is ZERO issues with his alloy, his prob is fitment in the throats.

[Argentino]

Argentino

Since there's no leading in the bore it appears to me, as you surmise also, the leading is from gas cutting around the bullet in the cylinder throats. You might try using just plain Pb alloy or find some tin and mix a 40-1 alloy. The linotype has to much antimony, even at that low amount. At the low pressure of your load the bullet isn't obturating at all. A double coat of BLL or a single coat of LLA should be sufficient. Upping the powder charge to 2.4 or 2.7 gr HP38 may also help to obturate the bullet a bit.

Thanks Larry.

I will try to cast some pure lead boolits out of that same WC mold.

I also have an old Lyman#358242 and I´ve been casting some pure lead bullets out of it; they mike at 0,362.
This seems to be a much better choice (just 1 thou under throat dia.) so I will try it soon.
I´ll increase my load up to 2.4 gns of HP38 as you´ve suggested. Maybe a faster powder like bullseye will help to seal the bore better than HP38? I´ll try that too. I know I´m using very light loads but I wanted to start that way in order to take care of that old Colt.

Thanks,
Argie.

[Outpost75]

Thanks Larry.

I will try to cast some pure lead boolits out of that same WC mold.

I also have an old Lyman#358242 and I´ve been casting some pure lead bullets out of it; they mike at 0,362.
This seems to be a much better choice (just 1 thou under throat dia.) so I will try it soon.
I´ll increase my load up to 2.4 gns of HP38 as you´ve suggested. Maybe a faster powder like bullseye will help to seal the bore better than HP38? I´ll try that too. I know I´m using very light loads but I wanted to start that way in order to take care of that old Colt.

Thanks,
Argie.

Pure lead will cast smaller in diameter. Using 1:40 tin-lead (2.5% Sn) will not increase hardness very much, only to about 8 BHN, but will enable better fill-out and about 0.001" larger as-cast diameter.

[Argentino]

Outpost75,
Yes, I was hoping that pure lead might compensate the smaller diameter by expanding easily than my previous alloyed WC bullets. However it seems to be a lot of difference from throat dia. so I will try 1:40 tin/lead or switch to Lyman # 358242.

I appreciate both the data for .38 S&W and Accurate´s mold designs that you´ve uploaded on your previous post.

Thanks,
Argie.

[Outpost75]

Outpost75,
Yes, I was hoping that pure lead might compensate the smaller diameter by expanding easily than my previous alloyed WC bullets. However it seems to be a lot of difference from throat dia. so I will try 1:40 tin/lead or switch to Lyman # 358242.

I appreciate both the data for .38 S&W and Accurate´s mold designs that you´ve uploaded on your previous post.

Thanks,
Argie.

If you have a mold which drops bullets in pure lead at .360"+ and you use a fast-burning powder like Bullseye or TiteGroup, it should slug-up to fit. Best would be for the pure lead bullets to drop about .362" so they could be loaded as-cast and unsized, lubing with 45-45-10 or Lee Liquid Alox. My S&W Victory, S&W Terrier and Webley & Scott Mark IV all have cylinder throats which run .362-.364". My Colt Police Positive and Ruger India model have .359-.360" throats and shoot the 148-grain HBWC .38 Special Remington component bullets very well with 2.5 grains of Bullseye at 1.20" OAL.

[DougGuy]

Don't laugh, but I actually put some Lee C430-310 RF boolits on my vise and smacked them with a ball peen hammer to fill them out before sizing. They shot great! Argie if you are loading wadcutters you may try this, push them through your cylinder throats to size them. I know I know, waaaaaay on out there but hey whatever fills the cylinder throats will stop the leading!

[badgeredd]

Do what you may, but 9.3X62AL speaks the truth. Instead of trying to make an undersized bullet work, spring for a mold of proper size at or very near the .363 throat diameter. ALSO, believe that a soft alloy will definitely shoot much better and will greatly reduce leading or totally eliminate it. I'd use 40:1, 30:1 or 25:1 lead tin OR 25% COWW 75% pure lead with added tin alloy. Al and a former member both told me to do the same and finally I did exactly what they said which gave me the desired results. You aren't generating enough pressure to seal the bullet in the throats so the bullet must fit the throats fully. OR you can ignore others that KNOW and fail. Your choice.

[Argentino]

badgeredd,
not sure if your reply was for me.
If so, I appreciate your input. But let me add that I don´t intend to "do what I may" nor to "ignore others that KNOW"

I´m here asking questions because I want to learn what went wrong with my first attempt reloading .38 S&W.

It is perfectly clear for me now that I need to fill each chamber with a boolit of proper (throat) dia.

Now I´m just trying to find how to do it within my limited options of mold and sizers for this caliber.

Thanks

[Argentino]

Using Lyman #358242 boolits did not work as I expected.

I forgot to mention that I was using .38 SW Spl. Dies. Trying to seat these boolits (at 0.362"dia.) was almost impossible using resized cases.

So I tried to use fire formed ones, but I could n´t get them in the .38 spl seating die.

So right now I have two choices:

-Keep on using .38 spl dies but with a heeled boolit (I have an old .38 Long Colt Ideal tool that might work; I know it cast around 0.362" with pure lead).

-Buy the proper sizing dies for .38 SW and use whatever boolit that is at least .362-.363" (I guess this and only this will allow me to use Lyman#358242)

Will start with the first option, though.

[Outpost75]

If you happen to have a set of 9x18 MAK dies around, those will work fine.

[Argentino]

Nope, I´m afraid I don´t have a 9mm. MAK Die set. But thanks for the input anyway.

I´m thinking about buying a .38 S&W Lee die set.

A couple of questions:

1. Are these dies something more than just a shorter version of .38 spl dies? I mean, both the sizing and seating dies should have bigger diameters than .38 Spl. ones, right?

2. I´m not able to obtain original .38 S&W cases. Would .38 spl trimmed brass work OK? I don´t know if .38S&W brass is supposed to be thinner than .38 spl.
If so, I may find some issues when trying to seat properly sized boolits.

Basically, I´m concerned about being able to seat a 0.362-0.363" boolit by using both .38S&W dies and .38 Spl trimmed brass. :?:

Thanks,
Argie.

[Larry Gibson]

Do you have 9mm dies?

[Argentino]

No, I´m afraid I don ´t.

Will they work for .38S&W? They have a slight taper, IIRC.

Thanks

[243winxb]

Buy the correct dies and brass. https://ammoseek.com/reloading/brass/38sw

Dies on sale $31 https://www.midwayusa.com/product/209266/lee-carbide-3-die-set

Midwayusa also has brass. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018967454/starline-brass

$18 per 100

[Larry Gibson]

No, I´m afraid I don ´t.

Will they work for .38S&W? They have a slight taper, IIRC.

Thanks

Yes, 9mm dies will work. I don't shoot very many 38 S&Ws except for pressure testing or occasionally in a couple old H&R and Iver Johnson break top revolvers. For use in the revolvers I partial size with the 9mm sizer just enough for a grip on the bullet. Then I use a Lee expander to bell the case mouths.......works for me. However, if I had a good solid frame revolver such as yours I would definitely invest in 38 S&W dies and a custom mould. I did some testing of 38 S&W loads for Harris over on CBF with some very nice bullets he cast from last year with Accurate moulds. If you're interested I can post the info here?

[Argentino]

Yes, 9mm dies will work. I don't shoot very many 38 S&Ws except for pressure testing or occasionally in a couple old H&R and Iver Johnson break top revolvers. For use in the revolvers I partial size with the 9mm sizer just enough for a grip on the bullet. Then I use a Lee expander to bell the case mouths.......works for me. However, if I had a good solid frame revolver such as yours I would definitely invest in 38 S&W dies and a custom mould. I did some testing of 38 S&W loads for Harris over on CBF with some very nice bullets he cast from last year with Accurate moulds. If you're interested I can post the info here?

Larry,

I bought a LEE die set already. It should arrive in a few days. I would really appreciate if you could share your info here.

Thanks,

Argie.

[Larry Gibson]

38 S&W Pressure Tests

Earlier in this thread I offered to test some of the loads mentioned for pressure to determine what level of safety there was for the different strength of revolvers made for the 38 S&W cartridge. Ed Harris graciously sent me some bullets and the data for several test loads. I also had on hand three 38 S&W factory loads plus my own 38 S&W load I use in my Harrington & Richardson revolver.

The test handgun is a TC Contender with a 7.94” long 357 magnum barrel. The bore is .347 and the groove is .357. A strain gauge is attached over the center of the chamber (as per SAAMI specifications). With a 38 S&W cartridge chambered the gauge is over the case just below the base of a factory seated bullet. The strain gauge is attached to an Oehler M43 PBL that is interfaced with a laptop computer which has the software. As you will note on the Oehler data sheets there is considerable data input on the conditions, test firearm and load information prior to testing. Each strain gauge is calibrated by the manufacturer and that is also input. I also use factory ammunition as a “reference”. Before each test the M43 runs a check on the gauge to ensure all is correct. A test cannot be done if that test is not correct.

241189

241190

The Contender has a 2.5X scope mounted and with quality 357 cast loads will put 10 shots into one raged hole less than 1” ctc at 25 yards. However, with the shorter 38 S&W cartridge the bullet exits the case it is not supported as it is in a revolver by the cylinder throats before entering the barrel. In the Contender chamber there would be considerable space around the bullet in the longer chamber for probable misalignment before the bullet enters the leade. Previous testing showed accuracy could be quite good and very poor. Since I’m probably the only one shooting any 38 S&W out of a Contender that isn’t a problem those of you with bullets that properly fit your revolvers cylinder throats have. The test groups were cut out and pasted to the Oehler data sheets.

With low pressure loads the M43 PBL will not provide any measurements unless sufficient data is measured. This means any data from such shots will be “lost” including the velocity. To alleviate that problem I also set up a M35P Oehler in tandem with the M43 PBL screens to at least capture the velocity. It also is interesting to compare the measured velocity data. If the M43 PBL doesn’t measure all the shots in a test string the M35P still provides velocity information (generally a lower velocity shot wasn’t measured) for study. An example of that will be shown. The M35P print out is pasted on the Oehler M43 data sheet left of the “shot Data” and “Summary” data.

The start screen for the M43 PBL was at 15’ and at 12.5’ for the M35P. Shooting was done from the bench with a Hoppe’s pistol rest.

241191
241192

The chamber on the Contender is to minimum specifications for the 357 magnum and most 38 S&W cartridges will not chamber. However, the R-P factory 38 S&W cartridges would chamber very tightly. I had on hand 50 new Starline 38 S&W cases and W-W and R-P 38 S&W fired cases. All of the Starline and most of the fired R-P cases would chamber when FL sized in a steel RCBS 357 FL die. With bullets larger than .358 seated they would not chamber. Thus all the test bullets other than the R-P factory that would chamber were sized .358 or .357. The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, that accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362 cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter.

In the following picture we see the bullets used: left to right; R-P factory, W-W factory, Western Lubaloy factory, Ed Harris provided the 36-125T, the 36-155D and the 36-151H and I provided the Lee 356-105-SWC. Also is a picture of the 3 bullets Ed provided loaded and another of the three factory loads. CC! 500 primers were used. A roll crimp was used in the crimp groove of each bullet. All powder charges were weighed individually on a Redding scale.

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The R-P factory load was tested first as the rounds would chamber so it would give a “reference”. Previous chronograph results out of the H&R revolver showed the R-P to give 60 – 100+ fps greater velocity than other factory loads. It also had more powder; 2.2 gr vs 1.7 and 2 gr, than the W-W and Western factory loads. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) measured was 16,300 psi. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and all 38 SPL factory ammunition I have tested (numerous actually) in this barrel fall below that MAP so the psi measurement is correct.

I also pullet bullets of the W-W and Western factory and loaded them and the factory powder charges into sized W-W 38 S&W cases that would chamber. Neither of those two factory loads produced enough psi for a measurement. It takes 5 – 7,000 psi to expand the case to put pressure on the barrel and another few thousand psi for a “strain” on the barrel to be measured. I have measured as low as 9,000 psi with this test barrel with target 38 SPL loads. However, given the expansion ratio and loose fitting bullet in the longer chamber the lowest psi measured during this test was 11,700 psi. Thus the W-W and Western factory loads were all less than 11,700 psi as were any other load that did not measure.

Looking at the time/pressure traces to the uninitiated they can be of concern. Those are quite normal for low psi loads where the powder is not burning that efficiently. A comparison of the average velocities between the M35P and the M43 demonstrate very good consistency. The accuracy of the R-P load was extremely good.

[Larry Gibson]

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Ed Harris 1 test is the 36-125T bullet over 3 gr Bullseye (Alliant). That is a short stubby bullet that was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA(?). I feared accuracy would not be that good given the loose fit in the 357 length chamber and was correct. Nine shots went into 2.137” but a flyer (note the oval bullet hole) enlarged the group to 3.2”. The MAP measured 15,300 psi.

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Ed Harris 2 test is the 36-125T bullet over 7.0 gr 2400 (Alliant). It proved to be a very erratic load and the 3.86” group demonstrates that. Obviously there is not enough bullet mass for 2400 to burn efficiently at this low of a load.

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Ed Harris 3 test is the 36-155D over 2.5 gr Bullseye (Alliant). The 36-155D is a very efficient looking bullet. It was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA. This is a very good load demonstrating excellent accuracy potential and a MAP of 16,600 psi which is very close to the R-P factory load. Note the 1st shot was out of the previously 2400 fouled barrel and was out of the remaining 9 shot group. Those 9 shots went into 1.32” which is very good.

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Ed Harris 4 test is the 36-155D over 6.2 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here we see while we may assume accuracy to be good based on 8 shots the 2 high flyers tell us something is amiss. The internal ballistics identify that something; again 2400 at this low of a load is not burning efficiently as indicated by the very large ES figures for velocity and pressure measurements along with the erratic time/pressure curves.

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Ed Harris test 5 is the 36-151H over 2.8 gr Bullseye (Alliant). This is a very consistent load and note that by seeing how the time/pressure traces are smoothing out. Also note the low psi ES’s across the board. Hey, accuracy was pretty good too! The one high shot was the high velocity. The bad news here for the 38 S&W is this load is pushing into 38 SPL+P psi range.

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Ed Harris 6 test is the 36-151H over 6.5 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here again we see the powder beginning to burn efficiently with low psi ES’s and much smoother time/pressure traces. Accuracy was excellent with 9 shots in 1.4:. The lone flyer, shot #9, was an abnormally low velocity. This load had the highest velocity and test MAP at 19,600 psi….definitely into 38 SPL+P range.

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This test is my own 38 S&W load developed for the break open H&R and Iver Johnson revolvers. I use W-W 38 SPL cases trimmed back to 38 S&W length. WSP primers wer used. The bullet is the Lee 356-105-SWC which drop the bullets at .361 with COWWs + 2% tin alloy. I leave them unsized and Lube with LLA. They are loaded over 2.5 gr Bullseye. Out of my H&R hammerless revolver (3 3/16” barrel) they hit point of aim out to 25 yards with very good accuracy. However, for this test so they would chamber in the Contender the bullets were sized .358 and the cases were sized in the 357 steel FL die. As we see from the Oehler M43 data sheet only one of the ten shot test gave sufficient psi to measure. That was shot #4 and the psi was 14,300 psi. The remaining nine shots then had a psi less than the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W (14,000 psi). Note, as mentioned earlier, the M35P printout (pasted to left of Shot Data and Summary gives the velocities for each shot. Thus we still have a record of the entire test string. Accuracy was very good with a 1.235” group.

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The last test was to chronograph and test for accuracy the 3 factory loads out of my H&R hammerless revolver. I was quite pleased with the ES and SD of all 3 loads from the revolver. As we see the R-P gave 60 – 100 fps greater velocity. That was as it should be given the higher psi of the R-P load. Accuracy was very poor, consistently poor for all 3 loads actually, which given the undersized factory bullets didn’t surprise me. On the target the R-P bullets are in the lower circle, the W-W in the middle circle and the Western Lubaloys in the top circle. As the velocity increased the point of impact lowered as usual for a revolver.

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[Argentino]

Larry,

I´ve downloaded an printed your data to have it handy at my reloading bench. An interesting record of accuracy, pressure and velocity. Thank you.

Based on your results, Bullseye seems to be the best option in terms of both accuracy and standard pressures for this caliber.

My .38 s&w Lee set arrived a few days ago. I´ve already trimmed down some unsorted .38 spl cases that I had, but I´ve found both WW and RP cases to be the thinnest and therefore the most suitable for seating a 0.363" boolit like I need to fill the throats.

Sorting out cases by their brands seems to be important in terms of case mouth expanding, bullet seating and also neck tension. Maybe this seems obvious but I´m just starting to pay attention to this;

I will start trying two different loads with Bullseye, 2.0 and 2.5 grains. Both are mentioned in Lyman´s Reloading Handbook 45th along with Lyman #358242, the 2.0 grains load being mentioned as the most accurate one.

Argie.