Uberti 1885 .45 Colt

[fn1889m]

I previously posted about this rifle. I’m trying to settle on loads that match my revolvers. I’ve been shooting 8.5 grains (max) of Unique with 255 grain LSWC in a Ruger Flattop and an old model Vaquero in .45 Colt.

Question: Is there any reason this load would cause unnecessary wear or setback in the lugs/bolt over a long period of repeated use in the 1885 model repro Uberti rifle?

I have the same question concerning a Japanese Winchester 92 in the same caliber.

That is about the hottest load that is fun to shoot in my Ruger revolvers. I think they are probably fine. But not sure.

I am new at shooting larger revolver calibers, but after experimenting with “magnum“ loads, I’m going back to 8.0 - 8.5 grains of Unique. I would like to be comfortable shooting the same loads in the rifles.


Edited for clarity

[M-Tecs]

I previously posted about this rifle. I’m trying to settle on loads that match my revolvers. I’ve been shooting 8.5 grains (max) of Unique with 255 grain LSWC in a Ruger Flattop and an old model Vaquero in .45 Colt.

Question: Is there any reason this load would cause unnecessary wear or setback in the lugs/bolt over a long period of repeated use in the Italian rifle?

I have the same question concerning a Japanese Winchester 92 in the same caliber.

That is about the hottest load that is fun to shoot in my Ruger revolvers. I think they are probably fine. But not sure.

I am new at shooting larger revolver calibers, but after experimenting with “magnum“ loads, I’m going back to 8.0 - 8.5 grains of Unique. I would like to be comfortable shooting the same loads in the rifles.


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9.5 is Alliant's max is 9.5 but keep in mind that is for the very low SAAMI pressures of the 45 Colt. Both your rifles are good to at least three times that pressure.

[knifemaker]

Your 8.5 gr. load of unique is a mild load for both your 1895 and 92 rifles and will not cause excessive wear.

[oldred]

The 1885 in modern steel is an extremely strong action that should be capable of up to Ruger no. 1 loads, I don't know for sure what steel Uberti uses but the action is rated to 28,000 PSI (Uberti says PSI instead of CUP?) for 45/70 (even bigger case head than the 45 Colt) and likely the steel used in them is better than what Winchester had a hundred years ago, even the old Winchesters would easily handle the loads you mention.

[RustyReel]

The 1885 in modern steel is an extremely strong action that should be capable of up to Ruger no. 1 loads, I don't know for sure what steel Uberti uses but the action is rated to 28,000 PSI (Uberti says PSI instead of CUP?) for 45/70 (even bigger case head than the 45 Colt) and likely the steel used in them is better than what Winchester had a hundred years ago, even the old Winchesters would easily handle the loads you mention.

My guess is his 45 Colt is a low wall whereas the 45/70 you mention is a high wall. At least my 45LC is a low wall. Any difference in rating??

[Jeff Michel]

Here you go, something to read.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/loading_45Colt_rifles.htm
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt45lc.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Some will protest his loads but I've ran them in my Marlin 1894 and Winchester 92 with no difficulties. Your Low wall should be just fine. Start low, work your way up and watch for pressures signs.

[fn1889m]

It’s a high wall. Heavy barrel.

Standard loads - maybe with an extra half grain - are more fun to shoot and still feel strong enough in revolvers. Some writers think 8.5 gn of Unique is a hot magnum type load and some think it is a standard load. I can certainly feel the trigger guard hit my finger on my flattop.

The rifle load is a product of the pistol load search.

I went through a phase in reloading when I went through a lot of different powders and different weights. But now I’m just trying to find a couple reliable loads for each caliber, and to simplify my reloading. A standard and a +P load, but not a magnum load. Also learning to shoot SA revolvers is different than semi or double action. Small changes seem to make a bigger difference.


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[M-Tecs]

The 1885 in modern steel is an extremely strong action that should be capable of up to Ruger no. 1 loads, I don't know for sure what steel Uberti uses but the action is rated to 28,000 PSI (Uberti says PSI instead of CUP?) for 45/70 (even bigger case head than the 45 Colt) and likely the steel used in them is better than what Winchester had a hundred years ago, even the old Winchesters would easily handle the loads you mention.

Normally CUP ands PSI are different pressures, however, at 28,000 both PSI and CUP represent the same pressure.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

[oldred]

My guess is his 45 Colt is a low wall whereas the 45/70 you mention is a high wall. At least my 45LC is a low wall. Any difference in rating??


Yes there is quite a bit of difference in what a low wall can handle vs the high wall, the low wall is not exactly a "weak" action but the lack of support on the upper part of the breech block does indeed mean it can't take the stresses of a high wall action. I would think a low wall would easily handle 45 LC normal loads but I personally would be very leery of hot 45 loads in the low wall action.

[oldred]

Normally CUP ands PSI are different pressures, however, at 28,000 both PSI and CUP represent the same pressure.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

I had heard that before but wasn't sure about it since I couldn't find anything to verify whether it was in fact correct, that explains it quite well! Thanks for that link

[M-Tecs]

I had heard that before but wasn't sure about it since I couldn't find anything to verify whether it was in fact correct, that explains it quite well! Thanks for that link

The question that I have about that is it just coincidence or was it by design? In 1926 was the 45/70 would have been widely in use.

https://www.tacretailer.com/gear/ammo/history-saami-ammunition-standardized

"The precursor to SAAMI, the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA), was founded in 1913 just prior to WWI at the request of the U.S. government. The War Department envisioned an industry organization that could establish an exchange of technical information between U.S. factories producing military arms and ammunition. In the early 1920s, SAAMSA ceased to exist and the idea was not revived until 1926, at the urging of the Commerce Department. SAAMI was initially created to cut the number of obsolete black powder rifle and shotgun shell loads, which it did. The industry team reduced the number of metallic cartridge loads by 70 percent and shotgun shell loads by 95 percent."

[Texas by God]

Browning chambered the Low Wall in .243 Win. If Italian steel is half as strong as Japanese steel, you'll be fine.

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[oldred]

Browning chambered the Low Wall in .243 Win. If Italian steel is half as strong as Japanese steel, you'll be fine.

"Apples to Oranges" since the Uberti low wall and the Jap Miroku low wall are two totally different rifles (as are the high walls), while the Jap low wall also does not support the block for the full length it has more support than the Uberti which is a copy of the original, this is one area that the the more modern design is actually a small improvement over the originals (at least with the low wall anyway).

I don't get why folks tend to discuss the Jap Browning/Winchesters with the original 1885 or any of the true to original American or Italian rifles as if they are somehow the same -they are not! Except for the name and only a superficial outward appearance they are completely different designs. Every single part in the action is very different and every function has been redesigned in how they accomplish that respective function, the Jap design is very complicated with MANY more parts than the very simple and smoothly functioning originals -in short they are simply two different guns to the point that comparing them is a classic case of "Apples to Oranges".


Personally I can't see the reasoning behind the Jap design but then that's just me and I could be missing something. However it just seems to me that they took an extremely well functioning rifle that was very strong, smooth operating, simple in design and very dependable then redesigned it with a great many more parts and complexity to arrive right back at the same place? The Jap version is a fantastic rifle that's brute strong, very accurate and smooth functioning but then the original design was/is these things also! I am certainly not trying to find fault with the newer modern designs as they are fine rifles that anyone should be proud to own but just that they are VERY different than rifles built to the original design such as the Uberti.

[Ozark mike]

I imagine BP would serve you well as far as pressures and wear

[fn1889m]

Yes there is quite a bit of difference in what a low wall can handle vs the high wall, the low wall is not exactly a "weak" action but the lack of support on the upper part of the breech block does indeed mean it can't take the stresses of a high wall action. I would think a low wall would easily handle 45 LC normal loads but I personally would be very leery of hot 45 loads in the low wall action.

What defines a hot load seems to vary across the Internet. Is it a general consensus that 8.5 (or even 9.0 gn) of Unique under a 255 gn lead is ok in a Uberti hi wall or Japanese Win 92? A “warm” load? I think I could be happy with that as my upper limit. And 7.5 gn/250 as my lower limit for SAA.


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[M-Tecs]

What defines a hot load seems to vary across the Internet.

Hot loads are defined three criteria.

First and most important is safety. SAAMI for the 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI due to the older Colt 1873's. On a side note that is too "hot" for the original Blackpowder Frame 1873 Colts per Colt. The SAAMI spec's are designed to be safe in the weakest firearms they chambered in. In a S&W 460 the same 45 Colt isn't a "hot" load at 50,000. The 460 runs at 65,000 PSI.

Next is brass life generally determined by number of loadings before the primer pocket gets too loose.

Last is recoil tolerance. A 357 max load in a TC Encore is a powderpuff yet in a 10 oz S&W airweight is way too "hot" for most.

[WinMike]

At one time, I owned every 90's era Browning low wall they made: 22 Hornet, .223 Rem, 243 Rem, 260 Rem, .357 Mag and 45 Colt. Still have the Hornet and .357 mag. I'd not heard the supposition that Browning designed them differently from the original. In any case, they are very strong.

[oldred]

I'd not heard the supposition that Browning designed them differently from the original. In any case, they are very strong.


Yes they are very strong plus very accurate and darn good looking to boot! They are not however even close to the classic original 1885 Winchester in design, about the only design feature that is shared with the original that is not common on other falling blocks is the floating hammer and even that has been completely redesigned vs the originals. The original rifles were/are very simple with way fewer parts than the Miroku Jap rifles and are easy and simple to disassemble/reassemble while the new design can be very challenging in this respect. The newer design is of course a more refined version and I'm sure they have good reasons for building them the way they do, in any case they are fine rifles in every respect but they are thoroughly modern designs with only a vague resemblance to the classic original Winchester design.

Actually the original 1885 as built by Winchester is also very different to the original Browning falling block rifle it is based on, Winchester bought the patent for the falling block design the Browning brothers were building and selling in Ogden Utah in the early 1880s then totally redesigned it to be the model 1885. The original Browning design had some fairly serious deficiencies due mostly to the crude manufacturing methods the Brownings had available to them, considering this was done on the western frontier in Utah territory in the 1870s those original Brownings were a testament to John Browning's genius crude or not!

[john.k]

There is no need for worries......any falling block is self limiting for pressure......as soon as a primer craters,the block wont open,because you have to shear the primer.......which aint that easy with a little dinky lever......so you quickly learn how to load for it.

[oldred]

There is no need for worries......any falling block is self limiting for pressure......as soon as a primer craters,the block wont open,because you have to shear the primer.......which aint that easy with a little dinky lever......so you quickly learn how to load for it.

The problem with that is that something like a Low Wall (the original 1885 version anyway) in a larger caliber may not be able to survive even the first cratered primer without damage! Remember the Low Wall has reduced support at top of the breach block (where it's needed most!) and while perfectly safe for what it's meant for a large capacity case with a larger case head and a heavy primer cratering charge could produce enough bolt thrust to cause damage with the first shot. It's best to stay with what these Low Walls were factory chambered for and at factory pressures, if more punch is wanted/needed then switch to a High Wall so that the part likely to fail first would be your shoulder!

[bigted]

All of which is moot ... the O P mentioned that his rifle ... the one he asked questions about ... is a Uberti HIWALL chambered in 45 Colt.

No worries as the Miroku Japchester with equal metal supporting the heavy breech block ... is chambered in 375 H&H mag.

I would go out on a limb and say that loading a 45 Colt will NEVER get to the point of pressure and thrust of the old Holland n Holland round.

Also please know that under the 255 grain boolit, 9 grains of Unique is the equal of the old Colt black powder loads.

Wanna get your eyes opened concerning the beloved 45 Colt round ... here is what to do ... load 40 grains of Ol E or Swiss 3Fg black powder under your 255 grain boolit. Fire this in your revolver and report back with your impression of the ORIGINAL 1873 loads for the 73 SAA Colt revolver. There is good reason for the US Army to request that they be toned down a little for the troops.

That 40 grain load is not for the faint of heart ... I assure you.

[M.A.D]

Whoa Whoa whoa lets back up a minute... You have a Uberti High wall in 45 Colt?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? Was it a special run? And if yes who for? Now how do i get one from the USA to Australia... ??

[bigted]

No special run. Uberti has manufactured the 45 Colt in their copy of the Winchester 1885 High Wall rifle. I too covet one.

[M.A.D]

No special run. Uberti has manufactured the 45 Colt in their copy of the Winchester 1885 High Wall rifle. I too covet one.

Never seen one down here in Oz... wish i had... Id own one for sure....

[fn1889m]

It is a high wall in .45 Colt. At this point I am trying to find a normal load, e.g., 8.5 gn of Unique under 255 gn bullets. I can shoot the same load in my old(er) model Vaquero. I did not find shooting hot loads to be fun nor necessary. And this is not really a mild load.

[oldred]

Well that rifle will handle hot loads (within reason of course) so you are staying well within a safe range and have nothing to worry about. Original 1885 Winchesters would handle very hot loads and it's known that Winchester even used 1885 HighWall actions to test fire new high pressure loadings, modern 1885 HighWalls made of modern steels will handle Ruger no.1 pressures (I am not recommended it but it is done) although Uberti recommends staying within 28,000 PSI I seriously doubt the steel used to make the Uberti is inferior to what Winchester used years ago.

I have personally fired 45/70 loads in one that were much higher than 28,000 PSI and the fella that owns it does so all the time, personally I think he is nuts but only because of the painful recoil as I personally have no concerns about the rifle, again this is just me and I am NOT recommending it to be a safe thing to do.

[Rifle 57]

No special run. Uberti has manufactured the 45 Colt in their copy of the Winchester 1885 High Wall rifle. I too covet one.

I have a Uberti 1885 Hi Wall in 45 Colt also and love it! And it shoots great.