Why do my cleaning patches always come out dirty!?

[Kev18]

Well... that s my question. Im really trying to clean up my Winchester 1886. It doesnt have a new polished/chrome bore in it. It was made in 1889. Im using Hoppe's #9. I got tired of using the store bought cleaning patches because I rran through them too fast. I stayed for a really long time cleaning the barrel.

First wet passes are coming out with grey on the patch. Im guessing its lead, which is normal. I shoot cast.

Second passes with the dry patches come out looking good. First one has grime on it, then second one is white and clean.

When I restart the process, the patches come out *** dirty as the first time I passed the patches in... '


It isnt the first rifle I cleaned. Usually il pass a few patches in, and then pass the dry ones with successful results.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There's lots of old dirt in the bore from many years of used before you acquired it. To get it really clean you'll need to use a bore cleaner that is more aggressive than Hoppe's, and a bore brush. Persistence will pay off in the end.

[Winger Ed.]

It just takes awhile with a less aggressive cleaner.

I had a M1 Garand that I only used Hoppe's # 9 to clean the bore when I first got it.
I'd run a couple of wet patches through it every few days.
I had used over 70 before they quit turning green.

[mattw]

Another thing to try... double up on the patches and then go wet with cleaner. This will make the bore fit tighter, you may need a hand holding on to the old girl because it will take some work getting them thru. But, in the end once all the lead is pushed out and the crud under it is pushed out you will like it. I also like to take a bronze brush and wrap it with a wet patch, seems to work better. With the double patches, start with one and get a little wear on it and then add the second. I doubt you would get 2 new ones in at first. I use flannel from shirts, makes great patches.

Can you see the lead build up? Do you see the lands and grooves? It could be that you have bore wear due to age and need to slug the barrel to get a good fit.

[Oily]

I've had good luck using the foaming bore cleaners on old milsurps that were really fouled layer after layer. Carbon then jacket fouling and so on. The foaming action seemed to get the crud loosened easier than anything I have ever tried.

[Markopolo]

I also use a stronger cleaner, as well as chucking up a bore brush in my drill.. it really makes a difference on the older guns..

[5Shot]

You could also try JB Bore Paste...works wonders.

[MrHarmless]

I'm a big fan of Bore Tech. It removes copper and general fouling there's no tomorrow.

[country gent]

What are your jags and brushes made of? Using a copper remover and brass brushes jags the solvent not only attacks the fouling but the brushes and jags giving the dirty patches impression. On an older bore it may be build ups from over the years. JB bore cleaner is an mechanical cleaner and will remove some but requires a lot energy. A chemical cleaner can be allowed to soak and "work" after applying it. You might try a mix of shooters choice kroil 50-50 for a few passes. Apply a wet coat and let soak for 10-15 mins then wet brush and patch. If possible a look in with a bore scope may be revealing.

[mattw]

I was going to suggest a mix of 50/50 Kroil and Pro Shot, like Country Gent said... get it wet and let it sit.

[Tom W.]

Gauze patches work wonders. They're just a bit more difficult to shove down the bore.

I also start with a foaming bore cleaner. After I get that out I'll use some #9 and then I'll use a few patches with Kroil squirted on them.

[Kev18]

Ive had her for a few years but I never got er really clean! I want to though. Theres pits and all, but its my favorite rifle and my first I ever bought myself. What would be a bore cleaner I could buy that would be strong enough?

Il chuck a bore brush in the drill as mentioned above. I do that for shotguns.

I use a copper brush from a Winchester cleaning kit I got a while back. It works good. I think its copper, not brass.

Im tired of always brushing like a mad man with no good results!

[Bazoo]

Kev, what caliber is this beloved 1886? Do you have a thread on it? Sounds pretty cool.

If ya let hoppes soak it will eventually dissolve the lead. What I've done on several occasions; Two to three times a day, soak a patch in hoppes and fully wet the bore and once scrub it a few strokes with a brush. Do that 3 days or so and it should be real close if not to where you want it.

[LAGS]

I have some barrels that are in the same condition as yours.
Hoppe's doesn't do much for it.
So I mixed up a gallon of Ed's Red and will give that a go.

[mattw]

I am not sure I would ever chuck up a brush and spin it. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[RED BEAR]

I have some old rifles with the same problem. I can clean till blue in the face but patches never come out clean. What type of bore cleaner do yall recomend.

[frkelly74]

I had some old surplus bolt rifles that I submerged the muzzle in a bowl of some concoction of different solvents and pumped the patch up and down and then brushed for a while and then pumped some more to rinse and repeated several times.. the fluid got really dirty and the bores got pretty clean. This might work with a lever gun with some disassembly required????

[LAGS]

In My opinion,
Spinning a bore brush or even a mop or patch would not be good.
You only end up polishing the tops of the lands and possibly rounding off the edges.
A bore brush is made to follow the grooves when going in and out of the grooves.
Plus if you end up with the brush binding up, you can twist off the stem that threads into the cleaning rod.
Then you have a brush stuck in your bore.
Now spinning a correct sized brush in the Chamber will work if you are careful.
That is a good way to get the cooked on cosmoline out of the chambers of Mosin Nagants.
Other members on the forum are singing the praises of Ed's Red, so I thought I would give it a try.
One part Each,
Kerosene, Transmission Fluid, Mineral spirits, and Acetone.

[waksupi]

I am not sure I would ever chuck up a brush and spin it. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Amen.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Regular Hoppe's 9 and Ed's Red don't do much but dissolve powder fouling and bullet lube. There is a product, Hoppe's #9 BENCHREST that works much better, as does Butch's Bore Shine or the foaming cleaners for getting tougher fouling. Wipe-out foaming cleaner works well, Wipe-out makes a Lead Remover that is supposed to work well. J-B bore cleaner with Kroil works on the toughest fouling. A worn-out or slightly small brush, wrapped with a patch(s) with J-B/Kroil usually gets the even the worst crud out. I have a P14 Enfield 303 that has yet to be truly clean and the barrel really doesn't look too bad though I haven't bothered with the borescope. Sometimes a rifle shoots far better than the borescope says it should.

[Conditor22]

Amen.

I third this. spinning a brush in the bore just doesn't sound functional/safe. I fail to see how it would get into the rifling.

I'll wrap some strands from a chore boy pad around a bore brush if needed but I PC all my boolits and seldom have to clean my barrels.

[lefty o]

your going to be there a long time trying to actually get a barrel clean with hoppes#9.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have some old rifles with the same problem. I can clean till blue in the face but patches never come out clean. What type of bore cleaner do yall recomend.

It's almost impossible to make a hard and fast "this will do it" recommendation. There are several things going on in the barrel of an older, previously owned rifle with an unknown history. First, of course, is copper jacket residue. There could also be cupro-nickel residue. There is likely lead build up. Then, there is the pitting which contain rust. Probably there is no one bore cleaner that will do everything.

Hoppe's No. 9 is great stuff, and most of us have used it since we first started shooting. But it does its best, and is adequate for cleaning barrels that are properly maintained from the beginning. It is insufficient for old neglected bores, which is not to say that it won't help at all. As Kev18 has observed, it will always dissolve something after a couple of days.

Were his rifle mine, I would start with some very hot, soapy water. After a thorough scrubbing and drying I'd next use a generous amount of Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner. This is strong stuff, both in smelling and reaction, and you have to stay on top of it. It will attack the copper, and the nasty stuff that will come out of your rifle's bore will astound you. You want to use several soaked patches, then let it sit for 1 5 - 30 min. It's like using hand tools, you have to apply the tool to the work, so you need to get enough in there to do the job. When wiping it out of the bore, use patches wet with Hoppe's or kerosene. Dry, then apply more Sweet's. The Sweet's attacks the copper and brass residue, and it doesn't make good sense to use a copper bronze bore brush with it. Since there is of necessity a time period lapse that must occur between applications you probably won't get it to quit coming out black/blue/green in one session, and cleaning over two or three days may be necessary. After the patches aren't colored anymore, I'd once again apply the hot, soapy water, then thoroughly dry and oil. Once the barrel is clean to your satisfaction you can dispense with the hot, soapy water in the future unless you shoot corrosive ammo.

The very best bore cleaning systems are electrolysis and ultrasonic, but the financial investment is so steep that even for a professional gunsmith the cost is prohibitive. If you find a gunsmith that has this equipment you can expect to pay accordingly for its use. However, it positively will remove all deposits of bullet metal and rust.

Other brush options are somewhat limited to the tornado brush or stainless steel brushes. These are available from Brownell's, and the stainless brushes that resemble the bronze brushes should be used sparingly as they are very aggressive. Another good trick is to use either a worn bore brush or one of the next caliber size down and wrap it with some stainless steel wool. If your bore is so bad that judicious application of a stainless brush is required and you can't find one specifically for rifles, the pistol brushes are usually available and will work.

Pitted barrels present a special problem because, although through persistent cleaning you may be able to get them clean, every time you subsequently fire the rifle some of the fouling will scrape off into the pits. Pits are created by rust and neglect, the result of the steel being oxidized into rust, and when the rust is removed the result is the pit. It is very difficult to get all of the rust out of the very bottom of the pit, and left alone it will continue to rust. If rust remains the only way to stop the action is to seal it off from the air. That's where an application of a good gun oil or something like RIG grease between uses comes in. With an unpitted bore just one pass with a protective agent may be enough, but a generous application is required for the pitted bore. Therefore, it is advisable to store the firearm upside down standing on it's muzzle on a folded paper towel or absorbent piece of cloth so that the oil doesn't run into the stock.

In addressing similar questions in the past I've generated replies like, "I wouldn't use Sweet's on my guns. Too hard on them and will etch the steel." That's why you've got to stay with the job and periodically wipe the used application out and apply a new one. Bear in mind that we're talking about a severely fouled and pitted bore here. Otherwise, Hoppe's and a brass/bronze bore brush would be sufficient for most jobs.

[RED BEAR]

Hey thanks i will give sweets a try the main gun i want to use it on is 8x50r Austrian the barrel has some pitting but not to bad.

[PBlover429]

Beware of too much cleaning. I have mi-surp 6.5 that I never cleaned with anything but Hoppes and patches. Bore pitted end to end but would still shoot 1" with 160 gr Hornadys. THEN I bought the Dyna-Tek Koolaid and cleaned to bare metal and treated. Shazam ----- 3" groups. Took 40 rounds of 160s (uncleaned) to get it back to 1". (I use Dyna-Tek on new rifles and those with perfect bores and it works as advertised.)

[Outpost75]

JB and Kroil!

1. Run a patch well saturated with Kroil through the bore.

2. Then impregnate a patch with JB bore paste and short stroke the length of the barrel. Look in the end of the barrel and see if you can see any copper streaks. If not, proceed. If you see copper, repeat the JB treatment.

3. Run two individual patches saturated with Kroil through the bore.

4. Dry the bore and chamber with two clean patches.

5. Apply two small drops of Kroil on a patch and run through the bore prior to shooting, and one dry patch.

I usually swab with two or three Kroil patches first until one comes out that looks more pink than gray before I go to the JB treatment.

I was pretty skeptical of this practice when I first started, but checked the bore with Sweet's and Slip 2000 and Butch's left overnight without any traces of copper.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about JB bore paste. This is NOT lapping compound.

It does not harm the bore. But is IS an amazing carbon and copper remover.

Yes, you can use Ed's Red instead of Kroil and it works EXACTLY the same way.

[country gent]

The reason for the hard cleaning is the pits are holding fouling and leading in them releasing it slowly each cleaning. Getting down into them with a brush or patch and jag is hard. Wetting and soaking will help. with a lot of chemical cleaners air is need to make them work also so filling the bore isn't that great. Work the brush thru the bore slowly this gives the bristles mire of a chance to get into the pits and not pass over. Another is use the brush for a jag wrapping a patch around it. With the pits this is a job for the chemical cleaners since the mechanical cleaners and scrubbing just wont get down into the pits. One of the problems with pitting is as you clean and remove fouling the patches replace it in the lower pits.

Keep in mind barrels from that era were a softer steel than todays barrels. Running a brush in a drill motor will act as a lap rounding corners and causing damage more so as it picks up fouling and becomes charged. Long slow even passes with a good rod will do the job.

Sweets is a very aggressive chemical cleaner for jacket fouling. A high ammonia content. Follow the directions closely. There are many good cleaners available. I use Shooter Choice kroil mixed 50-50 The mix seems to penetrate between fouling and barrel allowing it to be lifted out removed.

What you might try is wet and brush as above don't patch it several days sacrifice a case and make a funnel on a hose with the fired case as an end. Before patching flush barrel with solvent washing the loosened fouling out of the barrel and pits. Patch dry and see what you have

[Texas by God]

If it shoots good, I wouldn't clean it. Unless you're using Blackpowder.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Kev18]

Kev, what caliber is this beloved 1886? Do you have a thread on it? Sounds pretty cool.

If ya let hoppes soak it will eventually dissolve the lead. What I've done on several occasions; Two to three times a day, soak a patch in hoppes and fully wet the bore and once scrub it a few strokes with a brush. Do that 3 days or so and it should be real close if not to where you want it.

Its a 40-82. A nice caliber. I have multiple threads on it, in the lever gun section. I had trouble relaoding for it.

Here's what it looks like though if anyone is interested.
https://i.imgur.com/mmhfp00.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/23LcytW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bjoArCT.jpg

[Kev18]

I dont use patches sold at the store. I end up using normal kitchen paper towels. They absorb alot better and fit tight in the barrel.

I split a sheet in half and push it down the barrel while its soaked in Hoppes. Now il just let it sit as people mentioned.

[tomme boy]

Plug the muzzle and point it to the floor. Fill with Hoppies or the Benchrest formula all the way up the barrel. Let it sit muzzle down for a couple days then empty the barrel into a bucket. Now run a brush up and down then follow with some patches. It should be pretty clean now.

Otherwise look up how to make a home made 9v electrolysis to get everything out. It is the exact same thing as a commercial versions. You can even use a couple D batteries. I seen one where they used a flashlight. Once the bulb goes out the rod is either corroded or full of whatever is in your bore.

[LAGS]

Electrolysis cleaning will work.
But it only removes the Metallic particles, like Reverse Plating.
But if you are lucky, the dirt and powder fouling is on top of the lead and copper in the pits or grooves.
It is worth a try.
I have done it, but when cleaned, I could really see how badly the barrel was pitted now that all the stuff was removed.

[Kev18]

Plug the muzzle and point it to the floor. Fill with Hoppies or the Benchrest formula all the way up the barrel. Let it sit muzzle down for a couple days then empty the barrel into a bucket. Now run a brush up and down then follow with some patches. It should be pretty clean now.

Otherwise look up how to make a home made 9v electrolysis to get everything out. It is the exact same thing as a commercial versions. You can even use a couple D batteries. I seen one where they used a flashlight. Once the bulb goes out the rod is either corroded or full of whatever is in your bore.

I think il fill up the barrel. See what happens.

[pworley1]

I use Ed's Red a brass brush and a few patches. What ever is left after that I just don't worry about when working on a 100+ year old gun.

[Bazoo]

Oh okay, I remember at least one of the pictures. I'll have to check out those threads.

Been thinking, when you do get it clean, you could use a moly grease in the bore and then lube with moly in it to help with the fowling associated with the pitting.

[JeepHammer]

Plug the muzzle and point it to the floor. Fill with Hoppies or the Benchrest formula all the way up the barrel. Let it sit muzzle down for a couple days then empty the barrel into a bucket. Now run a brush up and down then follow with some patches. It should be pretty clean now.

Otherwise look up how to make a home made 9v electrolysis to get everything out. It is the exact same thing as a commercial versions. You can even use a couple D batteries. I seen one where they used a flashlight. Once the bulb goes out the rod is either corroded or full of whatever is in your bore.

I don't have an 'Opinion', I have a bore scope.

Cleaning Rod:
Traditional rod with roller bearings in the handle so you can SCRUB the bore.
Muzzle to chamber & back, over & over & over....
The lazier you are, the more fouling you leave.
There is no substitution for elbow grease.

Protect the muzzle crown from the rod.
A high quality polished stainless, coated, or brass rod will have a difficult (but not impossible) time dinging the crown.
Protecting the crown is usually accomplished by cleaning from the chamber.
Something as simple as a drilled out empty case can protect the chamber, or you can get a chamber cleaning tool.

Copper:
Montana Exterme bore cleaner is about the strongest copper remover I've ever used commercially.
Use a NYLON/synthetic brush, this stuff will attack brass/bronze brushes in short order.
Synthetic brushes don't mat down, bristles bending and becoming ineffective.

Lead,
A good lead solvent, let it stand, brush like crazy, repeat.
Keep the brush sopping wet so the scratches the brush puts in the lead the solvent can attack.
Lead corrodes quickly to protect itself, no solvent I've tried will attack through a corrosion layer.

Ammonia attacks copper, acids attack lead.
When you use acids, you MUST IMMEDIATELY apply oil to the steel to prevent rust.

Electrolysis,
Electrolysis is a last resort move and needs to be done correctly.
Most people use currents that will remove steel right along with the fouling.
It will also remove copper/lead from pits in the barrel, and remove small surface particles of the barrel material leaving a textured surface.

You will probably have to fire polish the bore after using electrolysis.

-----------

While everyone has an 'Opinion' about breaking in a barrel, it does help.
Shoot, clean, shoot, clean, etc.

Scratches, pits, defects & tool chatter marks in the barrel will scrap copper off the jacket.
The next round down the chamber will pressure that copper to the point it becomes liquid, and will hydraulically press any defect larger.
The higher power the round, the greater the effect.

The shoot & clean break in smooths over the sharp edges, breaks rough edges & breaks off chips left from machining.
The barrel often becomes a snap to clean once smoothed down with break in.

Lead bullets can't create the pressure to hydraulic defects, but lead builds up in layers & corrodes, and this can take SEVERAL cleaning sessions to get removed.
You have to remove corrosion, let solvent attack, remove corrosion, etc.
When you break in a lead shooter, do it with copper jackets,

Or, if it's an old rifle, clean to base metal, then OIL the bore between rounds for about 100 rounds.
Oil & pressure will burnish the bore and make it easier to clean.

A foot note from history,
Greased WOODEN bullets were used to break in rifle bores and test actions.
A grit impregnated into the wood was used to lap the bore to even the rifling of the day out,
And greased wooden bullets were used to burnish the bore before firing lead ammo.

Keep in mind these were black powder days, lots of hard carbon, and rifling tools were much more crude than what's used today.
No one laps bores with a hardwood stick anymore, but you used what our had back then...

[Petrol & Powder]

Everyone has offered good tips.

An ammonia based solvent like Hoppes will attack the brass jag just as much as the copper fouling in the bore, so that's one source of discolored patches.

A pitted barrel will always have some dirt/rust trapped in the rust and it's nearly impossible to get it all out.

JB bore pate is good for neglected bores but even that has its limitations.

I use an ammonia based solvent when shooting jacketed bullets and Kroil when shooting lead.

Once you get a barrel clean, it's far easier to keep it clean.

[LAGS]

@ jeep Hammer
You are Spot On.
But the only other alternative is to have the bore redone or sleeved by Bob Hoyt.
You cant fix the damage that has already been done in the past.

[JeepHammer]

@ jeep Hammer
You are Spot On.
But the only other alternative is to have the bore redone or sleeved by Bob Hoyt.
You cant fix the damage that has already been done in the past.

The point is to lap/polish by firing when the barrel is new, reducing what can snag & build up causing more damage.
Ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure and all that...

Secondly, get the crud out and burnish finish a used barrel.
In older barrels, the steel used will never spit a snow with patch out since you need to IMMEDIATELY protect the bore against rust.
The older carbon steel barrels will rust in seconds, oiling will make for oily patches.

If you burn the burnish on by firing, much like 'Seasoning' an iron skillet, the bore will be protected & lead will clean easier. It will probably shoot better also.

Relining can be done my about any trained & competent gunsmith with the correct tools.
I hesitate to do relining with very old classics, they are antique classics and should probably be preserved as is.

[LAGS]

I agree with the "Antiques should be kept in the Original Condition as long as possible "
But if you can no longer shoot it, then it is just a piece of iron hanging on the wall with A story.
If you bought a brand new Corvette in 1963, and it got a flat tire, would you not replace it ?
I am more impressed by something from the past that still works. rather than some Museum piece to Look at, even if it had to have a little Maintenance to keep it working.
That shows that it was probably used heavily in the past, and probably has many untold stories that go with it.
But to Bubba something to some Modern caliber , just to make it Convenient, is just wrong.

[JeepHammer]

If it was made in the 100,000's then line it or rebarrel it, no issue with that.

If it's show room new, it shoots, but won't be new for long, museum piece.
Good shape, but not perfect, a collection piece.

Just one of 100,000 or more that needs refinished then fine to reline or whatever.

Anything is better than broken down & beat up.

-------

The point of the thread was cleaning...

I won't use a steel bore brush anymore since I got a magnified bore scope.
Bronze, brass or synthetic won't scratch the bore, but steel, even stainless will.
Steel leaves behind smears of dissimilar metals that cause corrosion (electrical galvanic corrosion) and bore cleaners won't remove it.

I have noticed that stiff synthetic bristles don't smash down and wad up, and when they wear they still have sharp edges since they wear on an angle during use.

The WORST thing I see done is using a steel sectional rod (screws together) and going down the bore.
It REALLY ruins the muzzle crown in a hurry.

[Kev18]

I feel like I need to clear up some stuff.

1. The rifle shoots nice. I shoot it as much as possible. It is NOT a wall hanger.

2. I never have shot copper boolits. ONLY LEAD. That doesnt mean that the previous owner never shot copper jacketed boolits though...

3. I use a copper brush but Hoppe's never came out green/blue like people are saying. Only dark grey.


Also what is fire lapping? People are talking about this. I head of people adding polish/ jewlers rouge to the boolits. If thats what it is, then I considered doing that in the past. Just ever have. I wasnt sure of the pro's and con's.

[LAGS]

Fire lapping is similar to what you said about putting Polishing Rouge on the bullets pressed in.
Midway sells a kit to coat your boolits.
I have one with all the different grits, and it has done wonders on Most rifles
But , do not Over use It.
You can wear out the throat first, then the bore.
But if used sparingly, it can help greatly.
It Will Not bring an old Pitted barrel back to new condition.
But can smooth off the edges of the pitted areas, to reduce future fouling.
But it can remove built up crud, if used properly.
Hand lapping can do the same thing.
I have made Barrel Lapping mandrels out of an old bore brush and JB Weld or bedding compound, cast in the barrel after the barrel was coated with Johnsons paste wax.
But that was done for barrels like old Mil Surps that I had nothing to loose if something didn't go right.
But so far, all worked good and smoothed out the barrel both lands and grooves and didn't increase the bore too much.
The mandrel fits that Bore exactly as indexed, and will not fit any other rifle.

[JeepHammer]

Lapping is normally done with a 'Plug' and very fine abrasive with a rod, like brushing.

Way back when, the manufacturers used wooden bullets to take machining burrs off and not gouge the barrels with those burrs.

Really fine barrels were hand lapped, just like today, but production just fired wooden bullets to take chips off, and greased for burnish.
Wooden bullets were fast & cheap.

Fire lapping, opposed to a barrel break in with common bullets, are bullets impregnated with abrasive.
It's a last ditch, last resort, tried EVERYTHING else situation to try and get a barrel shooting.
Back in the 90s several places decided to make DIY kits and a lot of good barrels got damaged...

Break in is done when barrel is brand spanning new, and it's to remove or smooth out defects. Keep in mind this is 150 years past wooden bullets, the machining is MUCH better, the steel is MUCH better, and you are trying to break sharp edges mostly.
There won't be long coils or burrs left in the barrel...
You simply fire some light bullets (at lower velocity if you reload) to break chips, then you for the biggest, heaviest bullets you can find, or simply load bullets backwards in the case so the squarer backside pressures, overloads the sharp edges...
After about 10 rounds, then you shoot normal rounds, cleaning well every 2-5 rounds for about the first 100 rounds.

A backwards copper jacket will take about any cutting/shaving edge off, the next rounds will smooth down the chip, cleaning keeps copper from wedging in and expanding the sharp edge into a micro crack, making it stick up and becoming a burr again.

It's simple, shoot, clean, shoot, clean...
Copper jacket in a CLEAN bore will break off and carry out chips,
After about 20 rounds the chips are gone, then you polish the sharp edges with more bullets.
In 100 rounds, your optics/sights should be zeroed, your groups should be settling in since the bore is about polished, and the heat expansion should be settling down, the barrel harmonics should be reaching baselines...
It's a metallurgy thing, we all know new barrels take time (rounds) to 'Settle In' but don't know why...

A burnish, scraping with well lubricated bullets often do best for old lead shooters.
It's the difference in barrel steel from then & today, the older steel was higher carbon & responds better to a good cleaning & burnish...

I'm NOT going to use the old recipes!
Seal fat, skunk grease, grave wax... NOPE!
Not digging dead bodies up! ;)
Seems lube for cast bullets works fine for me, I'm going that way...

I shoot lead & smoke poles myself, and I never get a snow white patch, but the rifles are clean and they shoot well.
Not everyone uses lubricated bullets anymore...
You can't do anything about the damage already done, the pits & defects the steel had from the factory.

You can clean it, bake a little lube down with pressure, swab the barrel with oil and it's good.
The patch won't come out clean, but the bore is protected and somewhat protected from future lead.

To a degree, it's the same principal as firing fouling shots before you shoot for score.
In the military, We used to fire fouling shots before field missions, the cold bore shot went where we wanted it, even a week later when we fired in the field.

There are as many ideas about how, and what to use to clean as there are shooters.
This is what I've figured out in the last 50 years or so, take it for what it's worth.

[Shawlerbrook]

Definitely tread lightly. You can do much more harm than good with spinning brushes and/or aggressive cleaners. On many old guns a 100% clean bore is not necessary for good shooting. I generally use a good borelight and the eye test. If the bore looks good and you are only getting a little gray on the patches, then give it a shooting test. Definitely agree with MostlyLeverGuns above.

[JeepHammer]

As to fire lapping with abrasive bullets...
Keep in mind the highest pressure is applied to the lands of the rifling, so the rifling is ground down much more than the lands.
The edges of the lands, the sharp edges that bite into the bullet to form the bullet, get the worst of fire lapping.

Hand lapping is done with a FITTED 'Plug',
A plug that's been fitted to both the lands & grooves.

I plug the barrel, use a brass/bronze brush and pour hard lead around the brush.
It's perfectly formed to the entire bore & rifling.
Then I add abrasive, and look for the 'Tight Spot' in the bore, the spot where the bullet gets undersized, and work those tight spots out by hand.
Then I switch to a much finer abrasive and polish the entire length of the bore.

This LEAVES the lands and edges on the rifling, it just evens them out since the plug is fitted to that rifling and not a random round slug being forced down the barrel.
I can FEEL every defect and work it when hand lapping...

Keep in mind the new steels are SUPER compared to 1800/early 1900 steels (pre WWII in particular), and the machining tools today leave very few, and very small defects, so hand lapping of barrels has pretty much gone by the wayside.
It's so good that simple break in with bullets & cleaning does a good job.

(This excludes the AR clone import barrels that seem to be made of concrete rebar & machined with a broken brick, nothing can help them. You pay $299 for an AR clone, what can you really expect?)

[JeepHammer]

Definitely tread lightly. You can do much more harm than good with spinning brushes and/or aggressive cleaners. On many old guns a 100% clean bore is not necessary for good shooting. I generally use a good borelight and the eye test. If the bore looks good and you are only getting a little gray on the patches, then give it a shooting test. Definitely agree with MostlyLeverGuns above.

Exactly.
A one piece rod, with bearings in the handle so the rod can rotate with rifling and elbow grease...
Solvents help remove lead, but the older steel needs immediate protection from oxygen to prevent rust.
Cleaning in old times was about removing corrosives from primers & actual black powder.

Keep in mind that old time black powder was shipped in anything BUT metal containers.
Wood casks & barrels, waxed canvas, cardboard, it would eat it's way out of metal containers,and that was before it was fired & had the primer corrosives added to it...

Modern 'Black Powder' isn't made like it was back then & can be shipped in metal containers.

Us old cartridge collectors know the old black powder can and will eat it's way out of brass, steel didn't stand a chance.

There is a reason good bores in old black powder guns are rare, either from use/firing or from black powder eating the bore away.
Now if the rifling is clean & clear, it's good enough even if you don't get a snow white patch out of it...

[Crowkiller]

I've had good luck using the foaming bore cleaners on old milsurps that were really fouled layer after layer. Carbon then jacket fouling and so on. The foaming action seemed to get the crud loosened easier than anything I have ever tried.

Wipeout bore cleaner helps, but I've decided I won't ever get a white patch out of some old rifles.
And you really don't need to. Get the metal fouling and most of the powder fouling and it should shoot well.

[JeepHammer]

Wipeout bore cleaner helps, but I've decided I won't ever get a white patch out of some old rifles.
And you really don't need to. Get the metal fouling and most of the powder fouling and it should shoot well.

Yup!
Get the goop & metal out, oil it and call it a day.
If you can see the square edge at the bottom of the rifling where it meets the groove with a bore light, then you are probably as good as you can without electrical plating cleaning.
(And I want YOU to clean my rifles! ;) )

When it's 100+ years old, there are going to be pits, scratches & chatter marks, just a fact of life.
I've seen some so bad you couldn't see the grooves at all for the fouling! They almost look like a smoothbore...

Bore lights are cheap, good cleaning rods aren't too expensive, and when you worry about cleaning, you are more than likely doing a darn fine job!
Semantics & theoretical 'Perfect' aside, if you are worried, and clean often, it's probably 99% of 'Perfect', honestly.
The guys that clean regularly, I have to use a magnified bore scope to find residue of any kind, they do a GREAT job, if not 'Perfect'!

The really bad ones people just don't worry about cleaning, or clean at all.
I've heard "Well, I swab it once in a while", which means never...
I know it's never because I have to start with an undersized cleaning brush to get started! :(

[Kev18]

I can see the riflings fine in the bore. The barrel has pits but shoots good. I dont want you guys to think I never cleaned it, because I have plenty times just not good enough it seems.

[JeepHammer]

If you can see the 'Root' of the rifling upright, then you did a GREAT job.

Some rifling has a square cut at the root, some is more rounded, the muzzle will usually tell you...
If you see the root without lead/copper, then it's better than most.

Scratches, chatter marks (wash board looking gouges), pits, all common and all exactly none of your fault if you clean regularly.

Pits are imperfections in the steel that rot out or break away once the bore is drilled & rifled,
Or,
They are where corrosion attacked when a previous owner had the rifle.

Chatter marks are from tooling when the barrel was made, and unless you drilled the blank for size and cut the rifling, it's not your fault.

Deep scratches are usually from burrs the first bullets took off and dragged down the barrel.
A new barrel that gets cleaned down to bare metal usually has these burrs worked off by the back & forth movement of the cleaning brush/jag.

Small scratches are commonly from burned powder residue.
We don't see nearly as much scratching as we did, modern powders that burn into finer carbon.
Small scratches can be from smaller burrs left behind during machining, and again, not much you can do if you didn't make the barrel.

[BigEyeBob]

Brass choreboy pot scrubber on an old brush ,coat liberally with oil or eds red and scrub the barrel back and forth a few times ,Then use flannel patches to clean out the crud . I used 0000 steel wool wrapped around and old bore brush on a 303/25 barrel that had never been cleaned ,plenty of engine oil , and plenty of elbow grease . Cleaned it up pretty good ,but the barrel was badly pitted from using mercuric primers .**** thing still shot 2"groups at 100yards ,pretty good seeing the rifling was pretty much gone from most of the barrel apart from some remnants for about 8 " back from the muzzle .

[Crowkiller]

I found a lot of inner peace when I decided perfect was perfect but good enough is good enough with barrel cleaning. I accept a lot more crud left in my 85 year old Mauser barrel than in a 10 year old Hart barrel. The old Mauser started with jet black crud dripping out when the Wipeout was first applied. I'm happy with grey, especially since it shoots well.

[EDG]

Use a good lead solvent and let it sit in the barrel for 2 or 3 weeks then clean and reapply. Let set another 2 or 3 weeks.

Elemental lead is very corrosion resistant which means the solvent chemicals do not remove the lead residue very fast. That is why the lead plates can live in the acid solution of your car battery for years.

When an old barrel has a lot of tool marks it picks up lead in the crevices and it takes the solvent a long time to get rid of it. You can scrub for ever and half of what you remove may be the barrel steel.
When I clean my BPCR rifles I let them sit a week to 3 weeks with solvent acting on the lead.
Upon inspection of the bore I can see rough textured areas where the solvent has corroded the lead deposits. Wiping with a coarse synthetic patch or a bore brush will often remove a lot of the chemically attacked lead deposit leaving the leaded area smaller. Another application and several weeks will make it smaller still. A little time and patience will eventually get it out without spending a lot of time scrubbing.

[Kev18]

I let it sit for almost 2 days. The patches still came out dirty.

1.first Hoppes patch

2. dry patch

3. dry patch

4. Rem oil patch to protect the barrel from rusting... still grey.

https://i.imgur.com/mAuvKVb.jpg

[Kev18]

Here, I took a picture of the riflings best I can...

https://i.imgur.com/Ae1ZEMw.jpg

[Crowkiller]

Looks almost like a ring of pitting in there. Pits just seem to hold gunk to keep showing up on patches.

[Bazoo]

You didn't mention if you brushed it? Butch Fisher's general rule was one brush stroke for every round fired since the last cleaning. If it's been neglected I'd brush for 10 minutes or so with hoppes as many sessions as it took to satisfy me.

[LAGS]

I agree with the Brushing.
If you haven't used a bore brush, then try it especially on those rough spots.
If it still looks the same, then you might want to try Having it Hand lapped.
But Fire lapping at this point, will polish the entire barrel.
And just Skim over those rough spots
Hand lapping can be done better on the specific rough Areas first then the entire length of the bore.
Especially if the pitted areas are the tight spots.

[Kev18]

I used a copper brush, before my first patch.

[Bazoo]

How long did you brush for? Have you tried bronze wool/chore boy wrapped around the brush? That really does a wonderful job on lead fowling.

[Kev18]

How long did you brush for? Have you tried bronze wool/chore boy wrapped around the brush? That really does a wonderful job on lead fowling.

I have tried extra fine steel wool, but I didnt do much with it. I used it awhile ago but im sure it removes metal faster than anything else.

[Bazoo]

The chore boy will do more than the extra fine steel wool. Coarse steel wool will clean well but also damage the bore, extra fine steel wool will not really clean, just polish what's there. I've never used chore boy brand but found some cedar brand pot scrubbers. It looks like copper chainmail when unrolled. Cut a strip as long as your brush and enough to wrap around bout 3 times. It's like tiny copper scrapers going down the bore and really gets any fowling out. Make sure it's not copper plated steel by the way.

[Kev18]

The chore boy will do more than the extra fine steel wool. Coarse steel wool will clean well but also damage the bore, extra fine steel wool will not really clean, just polish what's there. I've never used chore boy brand but found some cedar brand pot scrubbers. It looks like copper chainmail when unrolled. Cut a strip as long as your brush and enough to wrap around bout 3 times. It's like tiny copper a rappers going down the bore and really gets any fowling out. Make sure it's not copper plated steel by the way.

They might have some at the dollar store. Il check it out.

[murf205]

If you decide to use Montana Extreme bore solvent, there is a warning on the cap about the fumes-heed it. I just had to sniff it (like a dumb***) and it took my breath. It, and their brushes, is some of the best bore solvent for really powder fouled barrels around but when you smell it, you'll know why.

[tomme boy]

Take a magnet with you to check the copper scrub pads. MOST are steel. You have to find the all copper ones. Usually Chore Boy brand.

[JeepHammer]

Umm, not to put too fine a point on it,
But you MUST BRUSH!

Just get comfortable and brush away.
No such thing as 'Instant' solvent that cleans years of crud... Brush, Brush, Brush!

Synthetic brushes don't bend & mat down.
Keep the bore, brush wet with solvent, you will literally have to wear some of the buildup away with a brush.

That's why you get a good cleaning rod,
The bore snake will work after a day of hunting, but there is no substitution for a good rod & brush.

[Kev18]

Umm, not to put too fine a point on it,
But you MUST BRUSH!

Just get comfortable and brush away.
No such thing as 'Instant' solvent that cleans years of crud... Brush, Brush, Brush!

Synthetic brushes don't bend & mat down.
Keep the bore, brush wet with solvent, you will literally have to wear some of the buildup away with a brush.

That's why you get a good cleaning rod,
The bore snake will work after a day of hunting, but there is no substitution for a good rod & brush.

ya i know. Il just keep going.

[onelight]

They might have some at the dollar store. Il check it out.
Here is where I got mine.

https://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Copper-Scouring-Count/dp/B0779D9BSG/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=Chore+Boy&qid=1556374613&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A2SZ1SUT04XLWW

[samari46]

I have a 1895 Winchester in 30-40 Krag. Must not have been cleaned for years. It dates back to 1915. Powder and copper fouling go on in layers. Went through a frenzy trying to clean the barrel. Every time I thought I had all the junk out, I'd leave the bbl well soaked with Hoppes and let sit for a week. Green patches.Just kept scrubbing and cleaning then the Hoppes patches. Think it took about 6 months. That 1985 must have seen a lot of copper nickle bullets which are notorious for leaving fouling. Same with a Canadian 22rf martini, think copper plated 22's don't leave copper fouling in a barrel?. Guess again. Green patches Actually had lumps of lead fouling and copper fouling. Took it outside and shot about 10 rounds of old 22's I had. The lumps went away. The cocking lever was bubba'd and I got a nice one from England. Sometimes you have to tweak the horns to adjust the firing pin strike. Mine was where it was supposed to be, good rim strikes. Scrubbed the 22 barrel afterwards no green nor powder or leading. Even Butches Bore shine wouldn't remove the lumps. Frank

[Steven66]

For cheap patches, buy a yard or two of cotton flannel at a sewing goods store, wash without fabric softener, dry and cut to size. May be even cheaper at a second hand store. Retired baby blankets (flannel) work pretty well too.

[Kev18]

For cheap patches, buy a yard or two of cotton flannel at a sewing goods store, wash without fabric softener, dry and cut to size. May be even cheaper at a second hand store. Retired baby blankets (flannel) work pretty well too.

I use paper towels. They are rough compared to patches and dont rip.

[Bazoo]

So how's the cleaning coming Kev?

[Kev18]

So how's the cleaning coming Kev?

Well I went to the local powder supplier to get primers, and I saw they had HOPPE's foaming gun cleaner frrom there elite collection. I bought it. I put a few pumps of it down the barrel and passed a new nylon brush I bought. It really cleaned it out nice. I might do another pass just to see. I guess its stronger then the other liquid one.

[murf205]

Its a 40-82. A nice caliber. I have multiple threads on it, in the lever gun section. I had trouble relaoding for it.

Here's what it looks like though if anyone is interested.
https://i.imgur.com/mmhfp00.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/23LcytW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bjoArCT.jpg

I'm proud for you (and envious too) that you are shooting and hunting with that old rifle. But I am a sucker for old nostalgic guns.

[Kev18]

I'm proud for you (and envious too) that you are shooting and hunting with that old rifle. But I am a sucker for old nostalgic guns.

I love the oldies! They are the best, and the build quality is great :)

[Red Elk]

Lots of information here.
I can tell you what I have recently learned. It has worked fantastically for me, cleaned rifles that have probably not been clean for almost 100 years.
Shooting builds up stuff in layers. As you have undoubtably learned. It usually takes a few, sometimes quite a few sessions to truly get it clean. Some of the rifles I have recently cleaned, took upwards of 3 weeks, to get them right. But they did come out clean.
Wipeout Foaming Bore cleaner. I used their Accelerator product, on a patch first. Get the patch wet with Accelerator, then swab the barrel well.
Plug the breech end with paper towel, then shake the Wipeout can very well. Insert the straw into the bore, and give it a shot. You won't need too much. It will foam up and fill the entire bore.
I let it sit for about two hours, run a clean patch or three through from the breech, if possible. Then, I repeat the process. If its at night, I let it sit all night. That stuff works, and will work on it in your sleep.
A couple of old 6.5x55 Swedes took a couple weeks. One took almost three weeks. But they are shiney and clean now.
I have quite a few other bottles of stuff, but this is the easiest and most effective I have used.
re

[Kev18]

Lots of information here.
I can tell you what I have recently learned. It has worked fantastically for me, cleaned rifles that have probably not been clean for almost 100 years.
Shooting builds up stuff in layers. As you have undoubtably learned. It usually takes a few, sometimes quite a few sessions to truly get it clean. Some of the rifles I have recently cleaned, took upwards of 3 weeks, to get them right. But they did come out clean.
Wipeout Foaming Bore cleaner. I used their Accelerator product, on a patch first. Get the patch wet with Accelerator, then swab the barrel well.
Plug the breech end with paper towel, then shake the Wipeout can very well. Insert the straw into the bore, and give it a shot. You won't need too much. It will foam up and fill the entire bore.
I let it sit for about two hours, run a clean patch or three through from the breech, if possible. Then, I repeat the process. If its at night, I let it sit all night. That stuff works, and will work on it in your sleep.
A couple of old 6.5x55 Swedes took a couple weeks. One took almost three weeks. But they are shiney and clean now.
I have quite a few other bottles of stuff, but this is the easiest and most effective I have used.
re

Well honestly the hoppe's foaming cleaner looks super strong. I had a caked up shotgun from shooting 20 shells of bp. I was scraping the fouling off with my finger nails. I sprayed some down the barrel, wait a few minutes, and used a brush to loosen stuff up. Sprayed some solvent on a paper towel patch, and wiped the barrel down 3 times. Ran 2 dry paper towels after. And BOOM. The bore is shiny... Im barely believing it.

[David2011]

A little late here, I’m a big fan of Kroil. The best thing about Kroil is that it will creep under almost anything. It will migrate to a 1 molecule thick film ads work under lead fouling. It’s not aggressive like ammonia and can sit and soak for days without doing any harm.

[Bazoo]

I'll have to try that foaming stuff Kev, thanks for sharing your results.

[Kev18]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFiZbzSfNsA

I attempted to make a video. I Used the Hoppes foaming cleaner for BP. The bore came out shiney.