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NSP64
10-20-2008, 08:52 PM
I've been lurking around here and started thinking about PP for .243. Has anyone tried it? or for smaller calibers like the 22's(.223)?

docone31
10-20-2008, 09:23 PM
I don't know about the .22, but, people have patched the .243. I have heard good things mostly full power loads and good accuracy.
That casting is so small, you will have to use a cigarette roller to get good results. Any wrinkles will be flattened on sizing however.
I am deeply considering patching for my 25-06.
With the .243, I would go as heavy as possible. Patched loads like heavy.

NSP64
10-20-2008, 09:29 PM
I have a 90 and 100 gr mold, and anm going to look for a roller.

docone31
10-20-2008, 10:32 PM
I am not sure I would like to hand roll something that small. A cigarette roller will make short work with it.
I lay the patch soaking wet in the roller. When I open it up, the soaking wet is gone and the patch is quite tight.
Great luck. I know I had a ball learning.
Have you slugged the bore yet? I forged ahead without doing it first.
I now know, it is simple, and saves a lot of embarassement at the range.
Remember, paper is going to be between .001, to .0015 per wrap. Two wraps of .001 are going to add up to .002.
I paper patch to .314 for a .312 groove diameter barrel. It is .304 bore. I size to .308 for the casting, size to .314 for finished patched boolitt. In other words, .002 over groove. A .243 would be .245. I don't know what your bore size is.
Let me give another reference that works for me,
My bore is .304. I cast at .312, size to .308. I then wrap with two wraps of notebook paper to .317, and size it to .314. I use JPW for lube, lightly. Makes a nice shiney wrapped boolitt.
That ratio should be a good start point for your .243.
I might look for Meade Acadamie Tracing Paper from Walmart at .001. I first used it in my rifle. It is a good strong paper. I ended up with three wraps to make .3135. Three inch groups at 100yds. .314, clover leafs at 100yds! At least untill the barrel got hot. I had not bedded the barrel as of yet.
Notebook paper I used was .0015.
Either way, they size nicely in a Lee Push Thru Sizer.
I would cut it into 1" strips. Easier to handle that way. Then cut the 45* angle. I have some that overlap, some that underlap. I have not found issues that way so far.
To find my size, I dry rolled the casting on a strip, cut it at 90*, then made my 45* cuts. I then transferred it to a piece of venetian blind our Bengals keep breaking off in all our windows.
I can lay the paper in the curve, and just snip both ends. The scissors follow the plastic blind without jamming, or cutting the blind.
I use no glue, egg white, baking soda in the water. I have not found a need to use them. I use and old 9mm cartridge tray to hold the wraps while they dry.
They shrink right down on the casting.
I do snip the tails.
I take fingernail clippers, and snip off what is easy to do without tearing the twist. I have loaded them uncut and noticed no difference. I use starting loads for each boolitt weight.
So far, so good.
Good luck.

bandit7.5
10-20-2008, 11:41 PM
I do a PP 224 for my 222rem and yes it is very tedious and very rewarding.
and by hand rolling only. Went to one of the big tobacco shops at the beach and the lady at the counter said " I don't carry any of those roach rollers". They did have some nice Perdomo cubano maduro churchills MMMMMMMMMMM.

docone31
10-20-2008, 11:50 PM
You hand roll those things!!!!
I haven't even hand rolled my .303.
Try in a convience store. That is where I find mine.
I can imagine a 22-250 on paper.
Not by hand.

Digital Dan
10-21-2008, 08:15 AM
There was a time when one could purchase PP ammo for the old .22 WCF.

pdawg_shooter
10-21-2008, 08:21 AM
Used to patch 25cal, got old and now stay with 30 and bigger. No reason why they wont work. Patching for revolvers even works, but couldnt see any advantage there. Just patch for rifles now. Havent run a bare lead bullet down a rifle bore since the 70s.

montana_charlie
10-21-2008, 01:09 PM
...venetian blind our Bengals keep breaking off...
How many tigers are running loose in your house?

docone31
10-21-2008, 02:01 PM
Although they think they are, they are actually Asiatic Leopard Cats.
They break things and do not have great people skills. My wife and myself are the only two people they get near.
When we travel, we have to take them with us, which they hate, and we have to arrange places well in advance.
We are jewelers, and, we sleep well at night. The female once attacked a contractors air compressor and won! We had to build shelves over where we sleep. They won't go on the bed when we are in it, they sleep on their perches directly over us.
They are a little smaller than Bobcats.
I always wanted an exotic. What the hell was I thinking!
We serve, we obey! Or else.
The male likes to watch me paper patch. He just stares at what I am doing. The female likes the gemstones. She always wants one, just one. As soon as we turn out backs, she gets it. She will quietly reach out with one paw and pick up the stone. Even in a parcel, she just wants whatever certain one strikes her fancy.
We would never part with them, but, we would not do it again.
Special food, special resting places, special toys for them. On, and on, and on.....
They do not go outside. Nothing else lives in our house, spiders, flies, anything. They eat them.

NSP64
10-21-2008, 05:28 PM
cool, do they still have claws? I am a dog person. am allergic to cats, so when the dau brings one home, guess who the cat takes to. She won't let anyone else touch/pick her up. I'm O.K. if I wash my hands after I touch her.

docone31
10-21-2008, 05:55 PM
In our house, our trim, and furniture is claw capable.
I WILL NOT declaw an animal. I have the scars to prove it.
I specifically made corners they can shred. I built in 2 X 4 s that I can replace. Both the male and female do not use their claws on us anymore. We kind of found a peace with each other.
We had a dog, back when we first were given these guys. We knew nothing about the breed. We ended upgiving the dog to someone who absolutely loved him.
Our kittens back then were giving the dog a blood bath when we went to the shop. The dog liked the Bengals, the Bengals did not like him. He was a full grown Schnauser!
The person we gave him to loved him untill he turned into a butterball! He had been an abused dog when we got him and it took us five years to get him civilized.
We saw Roscoe the dog a few years ago, and he was very happy. We chose well for him.
Our Bengals shred our 2 X 4 s for them. Nothing else. When they are worn down, we cut new ones.
We have peace that way.

NSP64
10-21-2008, 06:35 PM
That's good. Our 2 dogs and 1 cat are all from the rescue shelter near us.

docone31
10-21-2008, 06:38 PM
I always rescue. I have never bought a Yuppie animal. How I was blessed to get these critters I have no clue.
Hey, sorry the thread got a little hijacked.

NSP64
10-21-2008, 06:41 PM
I've been reading catboat's doctoral thesis on paper patching material and rolled a few .243 boolits I cast from a new rcbs 90gr mold (95gr as cast .243) Rifle uses .244 so I gave them a 2 wrap using 20lb computer printing paper wetted with hot water hand rolled, speed dried in oven then ran through a Lee push through for .245:drinks: I'll load them to low end for jacketed 90 gr and blast them at the range tomorrow.

NSP64
10-21-2008, 06:45 PM
Hey, sorry the thread got a little hijacked.

Like life, the road is never straight.

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Docone31, Now that this thread has gone way of track, you might have to post some pic's of your pets. Or are they camera shy/intolerant (Take my picture and !!!!!).

Now back on track
Meades Tracing Paper, any info? Don't know if we can find it here downunder?

John

docone31
10-21-2008, 06:54 PM
I do not know if you have Walmarts down under.
If not, I suspect, tracing paper, or onion skin would work.
It has to be .0015.
That size is what works best for me.
Here we are, well back on track.

NSP64
10-21-2008, 07:03 PM
we still have a non-supercenter walmart and they carry no tracing paper:(
P.S. I want pics too.

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 07:05 PM
WALMARTS, NO! We are blessed with the likes of KMart, TARGET, WOOLOWORTHS and COLES.

I will check around their shelves and see what is on offer.

I was in the Newsagents the other day and he had some pads of Tracing paper which did not look like tracing paper at all. More like a thick plastisized semi-translucent paper. Thick, heavy and stiff.

I might look a little strange wondering the shelves with a pair of calipers in hand. A lot of shops down here are VERY shooter intolerant, so if I want somthing for a shooting project and need help to find it, I have another story or I get the "I don't think we carry anything like what you want in stock."

Most place however will give you a side ways glance and help you; my Newsagent is one of these. Great bloke, wicked sense of humour.

I believe that the Dressmaking shops might have a material for tracing patterns which would work. I will check on this as well and it would be available in larger sheet sizes.

John

docone31
10-21-2008, 07:11 PM
Big John, What are you trying to wrap?
I have used notebook paper and sized it to size very successfully.
My .303 loves it at sizing .308, two wraps of notebook paper, or four wraps of meade sized to .314. I had to have Lee make me a custom mandrel for the dies, and open them up for the .314.
I use a little paste wax for going through the sizer. Before size, with notebook paper they range from .317 to .318. Sized, .314. No issues with the wrap.

docone31
10-21-2008, 07:12 PM
You might tell your version down there of resistant folks you are needing a certain size for shimming your Framistan.
It works for me.

docone31
10-21-2008, 07:33 PM
Another way of accomplishing your goals in those shops,
You might tell them you need a certain paper to readjust your muffler bearings. The adjustment makes the muffler more green.
This will marshal the huggers, and they will go out of their way to help you.
Just tell them how many trees you will be saveing, how many species that aren't on the endangered list yet that can for forth and populate. Who knows, someday they might get so important they can displace us!
.

woody1
10-21-2008, 07:49 PM
This has nothing to do with paper patchin' but we inherited this guy with our new place.

Regards, Woody

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 07:57 PM
Apart from various adjustable .45 cal molds which drop at slighty different diameters the biggest of which is .451"; I have a CBE .301" PP twin cavity mold; one cavity at 155grs the other 165grs.

With adjustment of the metal, I can vary the size of boolit I drop from the mold which allows me to use it in .308" cal. rifles up to and including .303" British.

So far I have tried this boolit with ordinary typing paper. The one shoot I managed to hit a 1/4" mild steel plate with at 50 metres, punched a 5/8" hole through the plate. Accuracy with these loads were minute of barn door at that distance.

I would like to have another go at this mold and the previously mentioned calibres. I do have a target on file somewhere with the details of some testing I did which showed better accuracy than mentioned.

John

docone31
10-21-2008, 08:04 PM
Way to go Big John!!!
Try the .303 at .314. That was the answer for me. I got 20 minutes of berm at .312 at 100yds. A cloverleaf at .314.
The .30cal, I have heard it fares well at .311 patched. I don't know yet. I am awaiting my mold.
My .30s are next after the Smelly.

docone31
10-21-2008, 08:05 PM
Woody, that critter sure looks like he lives there. He allows you to serve and obey also.
My kind of critter. Attitude plus.

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 08:13 PM
9266
A couple of castings from the mold.

John.

docone31
10-21-2008, 08:29 PM
What is as-cast diameter?

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 08:37 PM
.301" on nose and driving band section.
John

NSP64
10-21-2008, 08:44 PM
The rcbs mold I'm trying drops boolits that engrave the o-jive just behind the point. Should I wrap all the way forward? Success I scored some tracing paper(.002):drinks: No rolling machine yet:(

docone31
10-21-2008, 08:56 PM
Shoot, that is great for a .30cal. I would wrap twice with 16lb green computer paper. Should give you at least .309.
That would be a winner.
If you have thinner paper, wrap as many times as you need to get at least .309. I am partial to .310, or .311.
With my Smelly, I wrappred 3 times with Meade before I switched to notebook paper to get .314.

Bigjohn
10-21-2008, 09:04 PM
I've got to sign off for the day, I've had a quick look for the target details but can not find it just yet. I will look, find it and post when I next get the chance, about Saturday.

John.

Bigjohn
10-25-2008, 01:32 AM
These targets were shot on the 16th November 1992 over a sandbagged rest on a short range of thirty metres. The rifle used was an OMARK Mod. 44B in 7.62 Nato and fitted with click adustable CENTRAL Target sights. IIRC, I only had a limited number of rounds available and these two shot groups were with what ammo I had left after getting the rifle adjusted on target. Patches were lubed with a re-assembly paste which contained graphite.
9304
Winchester Cases, 37 grains/ IMR 4064, 165gr PP sized .310"

9305
Winchester Cases, 39.5 grains/ IMR 4064, 165gr PP sized .310"

I did try some rounds with a different powder and charge which I mentioned managed to punch a hole through a 1/4" mild steel plate but was not very accurate.

John.

pdawg_shooter
10-25-2008, 08:47 AM
9266
A couple of castings from the mold.

John.

That boolit looks a lot like a Lovern design! I still think Lovern had the best design of all. Patched or bare they are the easiest to get to shoot!

eka
10-25-2008, 10:44 AM
Hey NSP64,

How are you coming with that .243?

I've been doing the same thing you are doing. I'm using the same mold as you. I'm patching with two wraps of Premiere' tracing paper and finish sized to .244. When I put them through the lubrisizer for the final size, it leaves a small amount of FWFL lube in the grooves. I was a little worried about full jacket velocity loads at first, because I had only used cast velocity loads or a little above in paper patched loads up until now. However, these babies stay together great and I pushed them up toward the top of the load chart with no problems. I'm shooting these out of a Ruger 77 and the boolits are stabilizing great with nice round holes at 100 yards. I haven't found the accuracy I'm after yet. The two powders I've tried so far, are IMR 4064 (34.0-36.0 grains) and IMR 4831 (37.0-39.0 grains). The best group so far is 37.0 grains of IMR 4831 for just a fraction over two inches at 100. The worst groups were in the four inch range. I'm going to test some more on both sides of the 37.0 IMR 4831 to see if I can find anything there. Then, it's on to some Varget and IMR 3031. My OAL, incidentally, is 2.355, which engraves the patch lightly and allows for a very smooth closing of the bolt.

Hunting season kinda slipped up on me, so I had to drop this project to give my hunting guns the final shakedown before the season opens. But, I'll be back on it soon.

I'd be real interested in hearing what kind of experiences you're having. Good luck.

Keith

NSP64
10-26-2008, 10:56 PM
Pretty good I think. got to range today load was 95 gr rcbs .243 (100gr as cast) 35 gr imr 4895. It was to dark to use chrony. Shot at 50 yrds.
9338

9339

Lines from left and right are fliers. rt was keyholed. maybe a stuck patch

docone31
10-26-2008, 11:07 PM
NSP64, way to go!!! I like 4895 myself.
I am wondering, the cartridge on the left looks like it still has a bell on the case mouth.
Is it me, or your die?
I do not crimp my loads, though I do neck size them.
I am really encouraged with the .243 paper patching.
I just got done wrapping 50, 185gn (advertised). Total time, with four steps sizing, 2hrs.
I cast them last week.
My new dies should be here this week. I am eager to try them out.
I also go a little higher on the ogive with my wrap.
Looking good.
.243, imagine!
I cannot wait to load mine. I just gotta get a load cut. I will get a blank from Lee, and hopefully, someone here can cut me a .257, and .244.
I am going to try patching my 25-06 next.

NSP64
10-26-2008, 11:14 PM
I use LEE collet dies and they didn't come with a crimp die. I loaded these in the fired cases(slipped right in) then I used the collet neck sizer die( with the decap pin removed) to crimp the neck after loading. Wish the chrony had picked them up- by the recoil they was movin.:drinks:
I had to wrap this far up, the rcbs 95gr ojive was engraving that far up. The rcbs 100gr mold I have has a bore riding ogive. Might have to PP that one next.

docone31
10-26-2008, 11:26 PM
Lookin good at 50yds, how are they at 100?
To date, I have not been able to seat the boolitts predictably. I had to send my dies back to Lee. The #1MKIII, is not known for its chambering, nor bore and groove diameter.
My fireforming is so far out, The decapping mandrel is loose in a fired case.
When I wrote to Pat, at Lee, he told me the Factory Crimp Die can be set to just bring the case to straight on the neck.
I am really looking forward to trying this all out. I have two spankin .243 Palma rifles I built, one for the wife, one for me. I want to try them with paper.
I built the one for her and myself as she had never fired a rifle before, either high-power, or rimfire. I figuired the .243 could get her comfortable.
The first day she fired at the range, she fired 500rds 7.62 in her Swede G63! I had to tell her to let the barrel cool.
So, now I have these two great looking rifles.
I am looking forward to paper patching for them.

eka
10-27-2008, 05:33 PM
Here are my three best groups so far. I have found the high velocity loads to be more elusive, as expected. But, I'm going to sprinkle the magic dust (Varget) on it and see what happens :-D. I'm out of 4895 at present, but that crossed my mind too. IMR 4064 didn't produce anything to brag about. Then probably on to some 4350 and 3031. But all of this will have to wait for now, until I can kill that 18 point buck :mrgreen:.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii255/donquijote_photos/Shooting%20Photos/DSC_0404.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii255/donquijote_photos/Shooting%20Photos/DSC_0405.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii255/donquijote_photos/Shooting%20Photos/DSC_0402-1.jpg

Keith

NSP64
10-28-2008, 10:42 PM
back at the range today the rcbs 100 boolits(105gr as cast) with 2 wraps of tracing paper lubed with LLA over 31.2gr IMR4895 gave 2400fps with no leading:drinks: 4" group @ 50yrds:( back to the basement.

docone31
10-28-2008, 11:08 PM
NSP64, what is your bore, groove, and final diameter of the wrap?
31.2 is just a tad hot. I would go to 30. to start.
I am also wondering if the neck being belled is affecting the load also.

NSP64
10-28-2008, 11:50 PM
Hot? I read here that by PPing you could get jacketed velocity?

docone31
10-29-2008, 12:27 AM
Yeah, but, you have to find the perfect size, and load.
I use minimum starting load data with my .303 British. Even with that, I have had to tailor my sizing within the bore.
Factory jacketeds are .311 usually, .312 sometimes.
I size with paper to .314.
That recquired special mandrel for neck sizing, several sizing dies, etc.
It is easily possible, however, you must fit the patch to the barrel.
That is what has taken me some real time.
I am now, getting better groups with paper than with jacketed, even at .312.
I had to slug the bore, measure, and drive folks nuts on this forum.
To patch for my rifle, I was told to size to .304, which is bore. Then two wraps of paper, 16lb. I found instead, it is better sizing to .308, then wrapping with two wraps to .317-.318 and sizing to .314.
Just the fact you got the groups you did is great!
You gotta figuire, pushing paper through the bore is less resistance than jacketed.
I would back down a grain. Minimum load data calls for 31gns for that weight anyway. The extra .2 might be opening it up to 4".
Were it me, I would do some at 31gns, some at 30gns. Just to see.
At 100yds, I do not get keyholes. I do get 3' groups.
Once I got past 20ft of berm, I started tweaking small amounts of sizing. The first few shots, the safest place on the range was in front of the target! I mean WOW! Sizing is critical.

eka
10-29-2008, 10:29 AM
I haven't seen any issues with pushing the PP boolits to full velocity. Mine are stabilizing fine and as long as I stay within the listed loads, I haven't seen any pressure signs. Now, I haven't gotten the accuracy I'm looking for either. I'm thinking the best groups are probably going to be found in the lower to mid-range charges listed for jacketed bullets. But, this is just a guess on my part as I have not tested enough to know. My PP boolits are sized .244.

Another issue I think in tightening my full power groups up may be in seating depth. If you notice, the two top targets were loaded with 2400 and Red Dot. I basically just found the seating depth by closing the bolt on a dummy round. That was 2.640. I wasn't worried about pressure too much with the standard cast boolit type loads, but I thought I may not want the boolit jammed so tightly into the lands for the full velocity loads, so I backed off to 2.355 and was just ever so lightly touching the PP with the lands. I'm not having any problems with stabilization, leading, etc., but I think by looking at the two top groups, I may need to start seating out progressively longer to see if the groups tighten, while watching carefully for pressure signs. I know we normally don't change more than one thing at a time, so as to know exactly what effected any changes, but for the sake of safety I changed the seating depth when I went to the slower powders. I don't think I'll get all the way out to 2.640, but I suspect tighter groups lie somewhere in between. Only more trigger time will tell. :-D

Keith