Can we all agree that a double-action revolver is best for bear defense?

[Idaho45guy]

I'm talking about grizzly bears in Alaska and Montana.
Nearly all of the bear attacks I have read about involve a sudden attack in thick cover and the bear making contact.
Nearly all encounters result in the victims getting off only a couple of shots.
These are sudden and terrifying encounters.
Therefore, a large frame double action revolver with a shorter barrel and maximum power is ideal.
My bear sidearm is a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5.5" barrel.
Not ideal. Having to thumb the hammer is a detriment and lying on your back with a bear on you and you trying to shove a gun into it's vitals is no place to try and also get the hammer cocked.

My other woods gun is Glock G29 10mm. Under powered for grizzly and will not fire with the muzzle shoved into the side of a bear's head.

So it seems obvious to me that double action revolver in .454 Casull with a 4" barrel is the ideal SIDEARM for a "typical" grizzly attack.

Why don't I have one? Because I rarely ever go far enough East in the Idaho woods to encounter a grizzly and my Glock loaded with 15 rounds of 200gr hardcast boolits are adequate for the wolves and cougars and smallish black bears that I run across.

But for folks that regularly hike and fish in grizzly country, in lieu of a long gun in .45-70 or 12ga, then the double action revolver makes the most sense.

[Idaho45guy]

And just posted this because it is that time of the year for the bear threads to start, lol.

Now for smaller bears in other parts of the country, there are a number of calibers and actions that can be debated endlessly.

[RED BEAR]

I really wouldn't like to have to deal with a bear with a hand gun. And last year i would have agreed whole heartedly. But in past year i have bought 2 new revolvers that had to be returned because they failed to fire when trigger was pulled. Also bought 3 used that seemed to work perfectly until they were loaded. I used to think you couldn't go wrong with a revolver but this past year taught me different. I bought revolvers because they always go bang or so i thought.

[Idaho45guy]

240145

[jmort]

I doubt there is anything we can all agree on.
The .454 Ruger Alaskan has been put to a real life test and did the job.

[Walks]

Nope,

870, Carbine carry. 3" 000 buck, 3" Brenneke slug.

Single Action Revolver is no problem for me. I grew up with one. Had a Casull 7 1/2" for years.
Shot Dualist in Cowboy Action for 15+years.

I KNOW how fast I can shoot a Single Action one handed, even a Casull. A double action, not so well.

[Conditor22]

50 AE is also proven, my friend is alive because of one - stopped a charging griz

[bob208]

I would take a sa . less moving parts less to break.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Single action man here, but there was a video out a while ago that shows a wildlife agent releasing a bear from a cage. That bear came out of that cage and turned around and was on that game agent so fast it was unbelievable. As I recall the video asked the question: Would you rather have a Single Action or a double action.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Google the video “First I Heard a Twig Snap.”

A man with a snub by .460 said he wasn’t out far way from residences. It was a desperate draw and fire, lucky shot that saved his life. He said the adrenaline dump was such that he couldn’t sleep that night.

[Petrol & Powder]

IF you are going to relegate yourself to a handgun, then YES, a big bore DA revolver is likely the best tool.

I think a short barreled pump action 12 ga. shotgun with slugs would be a better tool but you would need to carry that thing with a round in the chamber and rely on the safety, which I wouldn't like. An empty chamber would be a safer mode but you then need both hands to deploy it.

I don't think trying cock the hammer on a SA under extreme stress, possibly one-handed, is the best solution but it would be better than nothing. As for the reliability of a DA revolver, it just doesn't get much better than a DA revolver.

[RJM52]

Although I like a DA for outdoor carry there are a growing number of Alaskans who have been going to the Glock 20 in 10mm with heavy HC bullets...had one, and a 29, hated both of them and they went down the road.

To me what ever someone shoots best is what is best for them...


Bob

[gwpercle]

I'm taking a 12 gauge pump .

[onelight]

Did you really think we could all agree on anything.:groner:...:p

[smkummer]

I think a 1911 in 45 or 10mm pumping up to 8-10 slugs into any bear would take the fight out of the meanest bear. Not to take anything away from a slick DA revolver but easy to keep pulling a trigger on a semi.

[Drm50]

I'm going with big bore DA but just like CCW if I was in area of high probability of contact it would be a pump 12g carried in hand. I've never had experience with big bears but the people that do carry pumps with slugs.
I would have thought big bore rifle but those guys deal with them all the time and pick shotgun. I once had a bull moose stand up 15' from me in thick brush while black bear hunting in Ontario. I was moving very slow and as big as it was I didn't see it till it stood up. I've herd of guys walking up on bear this way. Besides the short distance being in thick stuff don't help. I was carrying a rifle but if moose had been ornery I'm not sure what the outcome would have been.

[M-Tecs]

Some actual stats here:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5lg8n7VNb

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/outdoor-writer-re-thinks-pistols-as-a-defense-against-bears/#axzz5lgY3m2vJ

Based the actual cases above a 10MM Mag with a 15 round plus mag capacity would be near the top of the list if not at the top.

[DougGuy]

I think a 1911 in 45 or 10mm pumping up to 8-10 slugs into any bear would take the fight out of the meanest bear. Not to take anything away from a slick DA revolver but easy to keep pulling a trigger on a semi.

1911 = not enough terminal energy in warm loads. Good enough for medium sized bear, but not nearly enough gun for a really big bear. 10mm = fairly decent penetration with heavy for caliber hard cast. 460 Rowland in the 1911 much more energy and penetration.

When it comes to kinetic energy and penetration, the big bore revolver will always deliver a LOT more than an autoloader will. 450 BM or the 50 Beowulf in an AR would be pretty devastating, but slugs in a 12ga is likely the most practical choice you could make, very high energy dumped into the bear and you can get slugs anywhere, 460R, 450BM, 50Beo not so plentiful.

[Winger Ed.]

Years ago, somebody- (I want to say Smith & Wesson but that may not be right,)
used the bear threat as part of the advertising for their .44Mag.

[rfd]

roaming around in bear country, why take chances? shotgun Shotgun SHOTGUN ... and a ruger alaskan for serious close quarters mayhem.

[Tom W.]

Never seen a wild grizzly, nor have been anywhere that they live, to my knowledge. I don't know what I'd do, but I have a bad habit of shooting my SRH in single action mode.... I suspect I'd carry it with me with heavy boolits, and carry my 870 Express. But here in Alabama a bear of any kind needs to be chewing on your foot before you can shoot one, and even then you'll probably be in serious trouble with the fish and game department.

[Ozark mike]

If people want to carry semi autos that's there choice I'm not going to argue about it but I won't do it they tend to fail at the point when I need them most. They also don't chamber a heavy enough round to make me feel comfortable that being said I use a bfr 45-70 500grs loaded to 1500 fps which is almost a compressed charge of h322 and a slightly compressed load with shorter coal in the 1895gs @1750fps I always carry them at the same Time when playing in yogis territory which is pretty much any time I walk outside. As far as double or single I know a few who are better with singles than most could hope to be with a double. I don't even own a double anymore last one burnt along with everything else maybe again someday. Hell most around here are going the yuppie route and spraying good seasoning on em I would think a shotgun would be better served but the tree huggers are on a mission to say different

[murf205]

240168
After trying a lot of different shootin' irons, I have settled on this one. 4" 629 with 275 gr cast boolit over 2400 and CCI mag primer. I tried bumming around the fishing streams in Alaska with a shotgun, then a 358 BLR Browning but the long guns get in my way and if it is uncomfortable or cumbersome, sooner or later you are going to put it down or leave it at the cabin and you will be defenseless. I know all the downsides to a revolver as opposed to a 15 shot whatever, but I have shot this gun a lot and I am very familiar with it. It has been in the bottom of the Kenai River (while attached to my clumsy butt) 2 times and I just took it back to the cabin and dried it out by the wood stove and shot it a few times just to be sure. Whatever you decide to carry, remember to practice , practice, practice. Oh yeah, leave those candy bars at home, ole' smokey has a sharp sniffer.

[Bigslug]

I wouldn't have any more problem with a .45 ACP loaded with non-expanding LFN's or truncated cone FMJ than a whole lot of other choices - it's not appreciably different terminally than than the .45 Colt option. As soon as you stop thinking of common duty auto calibers in terms of only common duty hollow points that are DESIGNED to stop in less than 18" inches, the possibilities increase markedly.

I've got no issues with running a DA revolver for the same job, but more and more, I am NOT a fan of the hand-cannons. Sufficient penetration can be had in the range of .357 to .45 with 175-275 grains at 800 to 1200 fps given the right bullet choice, and I don't want something I have to seriously brace up on to control, or spend much time coming out of recoil on before I can thump again. I figure if I can't send the round up the nasal passage into the brain, I'm getting mauled before WHATEVER I fired can cause enough blood loss to do me any good. The beauty of the high-cap Glock - in any caliber - is that it gives you more likelihood of having one left for yourself.

[stubshaft]

Freedom Arms FA83 in .454 Casull for me.

[Markopolo]

It is not always convenient to carry a shotgun.. I strap on my chest holstered DA 44 mag loaded with 310 hard cast lee’s. They are what I been practicing with for years. It doesn’t interfere with my backpack, or my fly rod and waders, or my mushroom bags... and that is in thick bear country. Been carrying it in big bear country for over 20 years... I dont worry about it any more, but I don’t leave home without it spring, summer, or fall..I know where I am going if a bear gets me, and know something has got to be able to kill me sometime. I do hope to go kicking and scratching and pulling the trigger though. I have pulled it a couple times, but never shot one with it... I have killed several black bears with it though.

Marko

[GL49]

475 Linebaugh revolver. I'd rather make a couple/three good shots count than five I can't control. I just feel more comfortable with a single action, never have been good at double action. Then again, I've never had an angry bear wanting to have a close-up conversation with me and been able to evaluate one over the other. This is kind of like deciding what's better, Fords or Chevys. And neither is good if you're a Dodge owner.

[Ozark mike]

You would say it like that I just happen to like old internationals current project is a 2.5 ton. any who I agree that a big da 44 mag+ would be idea better yet if you can see it coming a auto 5 10 ga. I carry a 58 rem when I plan on going into town which has close to the same energy as a 45acp and I just don't trust it for bears. I know someone who shot a blackie with a 338 mag while facing him at 20 Yard's the bullet ricocheted off the forehead and blew the fur/skin off the forehead they tracked it for several hours finally treed it and put one thru the heart

[Ramjet-SS]

I'm talking about grizzly bears in Alaska and Montana.
Nearly all of the bear attacks I have read about involve a sudden attack in thick cover and the bear making contact.
Nearly all encounters result in the victims getting off only a couple of shots.
These are sudden and terrifying encounters.
Therefore, a large frame double action revolver with a shorter barrel and maximum power is ideal.
My bear sidearm is a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5.5" barrel.
Not ideal. Having to thumb the hammer is a detriment and lying on your back with a bear on you and you trying to shove a gun into it's vitals is no place to try and also get the hammer cocked.

My other woods gun is Glock G29 10mm. Under powered for grizzly and will not fire with the muzzle shoved into the side of a bear's head.

So it seems obvious to me that double action revolver in .454 Casull with a 4" barrel is the ideal SIDEARM for a "typical" grizzly attack.

Why don't I have one? Because I rarely ever go far enough East in the Idaho woods to encounter a grizzly and my Glock loaded with 15 rounds of 200gr hardcast boolits are adequate for the wolves and cougars and smallish black bears that I run across.

But for folks that regularly hike and fish in grizzly country, in lieu of a long gun in .45-70 or 12ga, then the double action revolver makes the most sense.

How about a hybrid Mossberg Shockwave single point sling stoked with buckshot and slugs...

Or a x-frame 460 S&W 4” or the big 500 or short barreled 475 Linebugh or 480 Ruger with 400 grain WFN cast.

Love these what if threads though they are fun.

[Earlwb]

As I see it, The grizzlies can move through the forests and tall brush quietly. If one decides to hunt and ambush you, you are not likely to be able to draw, aim and fire anything at it. No time. The grizzlies you can't see or hear are the ones to worry about. So whether it is single action or double action is really a moot point. In open country where you can see them approaching which would give you time to draw, aim and fire. So even then a DA or SA would still be a moot point. So it simply boils down to what you prefer and what you are used to and comfortable with using in the field.

[Idaho45guy]

As I see it, The grizzlies can move through the forests and tall brush quietly. If one decides to hunt and ambush you, you are not likely to be able to draw, aim and fire anything at it. No time. The grizzlies you can't see or hear are the ones to worry about. So whether it is single action or double action is really a moot point. In open country where you can see them approaching which would give you time to draw, aim and fire. So even then a DA or SA would still be a moot point. So it simply boils down to what you prefer and what you are used to and comfortable with using in the field.
Your scenario is exactly why I opined that a double action revolver would be superior to a single action.
You don't have to try and thumb the hammer back to fire; you just have to pull the trigger. Having it in a chest rig is also superior to a belt holster.
Markopolo has it figured out. He's been sharing the woods with these critters and knows what works.

[scattershot]

I doubt there is anything we can all agree on.
The .454 Ruger Alaskan has been put to a real life test and did the job.

So has the 9mm. Wouldn’t be my first choice, but apparently it works, too.

[Ozark mike]

As I see it, The grizzlies can move through the forests and tall brush quietly. If one decides to hunt and ambush you, you are not likely to be able to draw, aim and fire anything at it. No time. The grizzlies you can't see or hear are the ones to worry about. So whether it is single action or double action is really a moot point. In open country where you can see them approaching which would give you time to draw, aim and fire. So even then a DA or SA would still be a moot point. So it simply boils down to what you prefer and what you are used to and comfortable with using in the field.

Around here there's some brush not much up in the cabinet's it's mostly just a heavy canopy you can see a little. Down around the Kootenai that's another story.if I'm going to be in heavy brush I make sure my rifle is in my hands ready to go it's been modified with only the first click safety so I don't have to worry about pushing a button or any other nonsense we usually have about 5 or 8 grizzly attacks a year around here an I hope to never come in to that situation. Last year over in the flathead a game official ran directly in to one with a bicycle on the road didn't have his gun and I don't think he even had spray. He didn't make it. Maybe waksupi can fill you in more on that one it happened just north of him

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Idaho45Guy -- I'm with your conclusion about a double action revolver being the best solution for an unwanted face-off with a bear, but will relate the following story in trying to make a point: About 15 years ago I lived in a rural environment that required me to walk about 1/4 mile up my lane to the mailbox. A neighbor phoned one day to tell me that when driving past he had recently twice observed a mountain lion in the pasture near the mailbox. Not being one to pass up the opportunity to acquire another gun I ordered a 3" barrel Magnaported S&W Mod. 29 from Lew Horton. I loaded it up with some factory JHPs and carried it daily on the mail walk, until I eventually got tired of packing it and the lion seemed to have moved on. Sometime thereafter two shooting friends and I went a ways farther up into the mountains to target practice and try out our new acqusitions. I got out the S&W and fired one off ....... it was just astounding. The shock wave was awful, and the muzzle was pointed skyward.
I fired it twice more, then handed it to one of my buddies who fired one shot. He, in turn, passed it to the other fellow, who just passed it back to me. I dumped the two remaining rounds, pocketed them, and gave the revolver a good cleaning when I got home. I put a stick-on label on the nice blue plastic factory box reading "The Beast" and stored it away. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the wrong caliber/cartridge in the wrong gun won't be much good for fast repeat shots. That negates any advantage of a double action over a single action. But I'm thinking that the double action would still give the best results in a manageable caliber and model. Now if I could just find a nice, reasonably priced 6" S&W Mod.25 in .45 Colt......... :D

[MT Chambers]

My first choices would be Freedom Arms .454,.475,or .500, they can be holstered and not as big or clumsy as the S&W.

[charlie b]

Carry what you can shoot accurately under pressure. Read one of the incidents in the links where the guy fired twice and didn't hit anything. He got lucky.

Enough penetration to get to vital organs. Enough practice and skill to put a round (or more) in those spots. And lucky enough to have time to do all that.

[Texas by God]

SA is ingrained so deeply in my muscle memory that it would be my choice. On my hip. There would be a 12 gauge 870 in my hands if in Grizzly Land. I can shoot a shotgun quicker than I can a pistol.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[lar45]

I agree that a double action revolver would probably be the best choice.
I have a 4" 500S&W, but the d*m thing weighs almost 5# and really starts to pull your pants down, so a chest holster would probably be the way to go.
I'm thinking about getting a Ruger Super Redhawk in 480 and have the barrel cut down to 4" or so. Maybe leave the barrel just long enough to remount the original front sight.

I tried loading some 400gn hard cast in the 454, but they wouldn't stabilize and went through the target sideways. I did have great luck with 350s.
A 454 might be a good choice as you could probably get 45Colt ammo to shoot in it in a pinch. The muzzle blast from the high pressure 454 would be pretty unbearable, HA I made a funny, but I guess you could load them down a little bit.

Years ago I read about some Canadians that made the 45-08 in modified 1911s to carry for bear defense. They took 308ish rounds, but them down to 45acp length and reamed the inside out deep enough to seat a 200SWC. I think they loaded them to 1200 or 1300fps.

Anyway, my vote is for a chopped SRH in 480 loaded with 400gn hard cast.

[9.3X62AL]

I wouldn't have any more problem with a .45 ACP loaded with non-expanding LFN's or truncated cone FMJ than a whole lot of other choices - it's not appreciably different terminally than than the .45 Colt option. As soon as you stop thinking of common duty auto calibers in terms of only common duty hollow points that are DESIGNED to stop in less than 18" inches, the possibilities increase markedly.

I've got no issues with running a DA revolver for the same job, but more and more, I am NOT a fan of the hand-cannons. Sufficient penetration can be had in the range of .357 to .45 with 175-275 grains at 800 to 1200 fps given the right bullet choice, and I don't want something I have to seriously brace up on to control, or spend much time coming out of recoil on before I can thump again. I figure if I can't send the round up the nasal passage into the brain, I'm getting mauled before WHATEVER I fired can cause enough blood loss to do me any good. The beauty of the high-cap Glock - in any caliber - is that it gives you more likelihood of having one left for yourself.

Erik--As usual, your observations make a lot of good sense. That CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62 Mauser you sold me was prompted by a Close Encounter Of The Furred Kind in our local forest, near Clark's Ranch. Not a griz or a brown, but the local black bears defending their berry patches are still quite capable of spoiling your afternoon if given the opportunity. Yeah, it's a bolt rifle--but I assure you, I could have made it sound belt-fed if the need arose. That Redhawk 44 didn't seem very authoritative at the time.

Subsequent summer berry patch daytrips have been reinforced by the 9.3mm or the 38/55 Win 94. Bears have avoided us by the hundreds, which is fine by me and mine.

[lar45]

I read a book about bear attacks many years ago. One thing that was in it was generally speaking, if you are attacked by a Griz, it may be defending it's territory or a kill, and playing dead may save you. If a Black Bear attacks you, it probably means to eat you, so fight with everything that you have. Hopefully that will never happen, but if it does a good large caliber firearm would be a great thing to have handy.

[murf205]

Now if I could just fine a nice, reasonably priced 6" S&W Mod.25 in .45 Colt......
When you find one at a reasonable price, see if they have 2 of them and call me! I've been looking for one that I wouldn't have to trade my first born for!

[outdoorfan]

Never been in a bear attack and pray it stays that way!

Seems to me that a bear charging at somebody means that the only "stopping" shot is a cranium shot. Seems to me any 9mm-on-up with proper bullet will do the job. Bullet design and shot placement, along with the ability for accurate follow-up shots seems most important to me.

Again, it appears to me that the idea of having some large powerful caliber/cartridge that will smash bones and get to the vitals is something one would do in a hunting situation.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

O.K., murph205, it's a deal -- but if you see one snatch it up!

Bear attacks -- I've never experienced one either. Matter of fact, I've only seen two of them in the wild, brown/black bears, and they were eager to go the other way. Over a lifetime, though, one reads about a lot of them. Seems like three observations run common in all the accounts: 1. The bear runs awfully fast. 2. Often shots of any caliber seem to skid off their skulls, so the best shot(s) might be at the chest if it's coming head-on, which they usually seem to do. 3. Once it gets to you, you're unlikely to survive, or at the best be terribly mauled.

I'm kind of thinking you'll most likely only get off one shot, but with a double action perhaps two. :shock:

[scattershot]

When you find one at a reasonable price, see if they have 2 of them and call me! I've been looking for one that I wouldn't have to trade my first born for!


Curious what they are going for?

[Idaho45guy]

Bear attacks -- I've never experienced one either. Matter of fact, I've only seen two of them in the wild, brown/black bears, and they were eager to go the other way. Over a lifetime, though, one reads about a lot of them. Seems like three observations run common in all the accounts: 1. The bear runs awfully fast. 2. Often shots of any caliber seem to skid off their skulls, so the best shot(s) might be at the chest if it's coming head-on, which they usually seem to do. 3. Once it gets to you, you're unlikely to survive, or at the best be terribly mauled.

I'm kind of thinking you'll most likely only get off one shot, but with a double action perhaps two. :shock:

LOL at folks who think anything less than a wide meplat large bore caliber or a very fast moving spire point is going to penetrate a Grizzly bear skull...

The front of a Grizzly skull is very sloped and is famous for deflecting bullets...

240282

240283

And I see bears every year in the woods. They are always headed the opposite direction post haste as soon as they detect me. Out of dozens of encounters, only one bear followed me while I was out berry picking. A bucket full of huckleberries was too much for him/her to resist until I yelled at him/her.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Current suggested retail price for a new 6 1/2" barrel Mod. 25 .45 L. Colt is $1,009.00. A used one is about $800.00 +/-. The used ones come and go on the internet auctions. A new one might be a little harder to find as even stocking dealers might not have one in the case as I suspect sales
are slow in this particular firearms niche.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Interesting, Idaho45Guy.......so, since this is your thread, and you stated in your first post that you currently carry a Ruger Bisley .45 Colt, but are inclined toward a .454 Casull, have you reached any new conclusions? Looking for a double action now? After reading through all of it I'm still liking the .45 Colt. It has that wide meplat at the front end of 255 gr. and to my way of thinking is about the limit for double action controllability, although a .44 Magnum with a 6 inch barrel might also work with some practice. Nice bear skull -- have a story to go with it?

[Idaho45guy]

Interesting, Idaho45Guy.......so, since this is your thread, and you stated in your first post that you currently carry a Ruger Bisley .45 Colt, but are inclined toward a .454 Casull, have you reached any new conclusions? Looking for a double action now? After reading through all of it I'm still liking the .45 Colt. It has that wide meplat at the front end of 255 gr. and to my way of thinking is about the limit for double action controllability, although a .44 Magnum with a 6 inch barrel might also work with some practice. Nice bear skull -- have a story to go with it?

I so rarely go into Griz country that I have no need to upgrade. I load my own 300gr cast boolits with Lil' Gun to around 1200 fps in the .45 Colt. Hot enough if I feel the need to wander that far East. I rarely ever carry the Ruger anymore. The Glock 10mm is so much more comfortable and adaptable and is ideal for likely encounters with wolves and drunk rednecks.

Oh, and the skulls aren't mine; just photos taken off the internet.

[murf205]

Curious what they are going for?

Pretty close to $1000 here.

You can look at the angle of that skull and bet that the odds of a boolit glancing over the top are very good. I would think that a swc design might get a little more "bite" than a round or even a round/flat profile.

[outdoorfan]

When a bear charges, isn't it's head down a bit? That should make for less angle of deflection, I would think. And the shot sould be probably not towards the top of the skull, but towards where the eyes are.

[scattershot]

“I so rarely go into Griz country that I have no need to upgrade. I load my own 300gr cast boolits with Lil' Gun to around 1200 fps in the .45 Colt. “

I’m not sure I would put such a load in my M25. I don’t know if I’d even shoot it from a Blackhawk. Pretty warm, IMO.

[M-Tecs]

The S&W M25 in 45 Colt has relatively thin cylinders walls. 25K seems to be commonly agreed max for them. Blackhawks will handle more. 1200 fps with cast and Lil' Gun is a Hodgdon recommend safe load for Blackhawks.

[High Desert Hunter]

Lived, hunted, camped for years in grizzly country, carried either a 44 Magnum Super Blackhawk with 300gr Speers, or a 45 Colt Ruger Biskey with 300gr Speer Unicore bullets. I was carrying the Bisley when I killed my Toklat grizzly in the Alaska Range. I think the myth of bullets glancing off of a grizzly bear's head are more likely a bullet that passes through the enormous amount of muscle found on a bear's skull, and not a bullet striking the skull. Charging bear, you want to aim for the nose/mouth area, a miss high still hits skull, low is a neck/center chest, left or right will hit shoulders slowing locomotion.

[Ozark mike]

It's not a myth I've known it happen to a black bear with a 338 mag. It was walking up a hill had its nose to the dirt didn't even know James was there the resulting shot blew the hair skin and muscle off little larger than the size of my hand. knocked it over it rolled down the hill in a ball hit the bottom and took off running. he still has the hide from what I know he started using his 460 wby which i think is way over kill seeing as he decapitated one with a neck shot

[High Desert Hunter]

I've seen black bear killed with a 22lr to the head. Having seen what my 300 Win Mag does to a bear's skull, I still feel it is a myth, skull isn't as thick as a moose, but it sure has a lot more meat on top of it. Buddy center punched a decent grizzly in the head with a 44 Mag and 240gr JSP, DRT.

[Larry in MT]

I made my mind up 35 years ago. When I horse pack into the Bob Marshall, fish the North Fork or chase cows on the Teton, it's with me. 285 grain 44 mag @ 1250 fps. VERY controllable. I use a strong side holster and a very stiff nylon belt.

https://oi861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/c542cbf8.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess a ruger Alaskan 454 or 44 would be hard to beat. Easy to carry and draw (which means as much as how powerful it is). For the most part though your going to get one chance. We shot a charging bear target at a Linebaugh seminar one year and the target started at 20 yards and came at you at a pace similar to a bear charging. I don't think more then 5 percent of those SEASONED SHOOTERS got more then one hit on the target. 9 times out of 10 it was the first shot and the follow ups went wild. That is a piece of paper. Traded that for claws and teeth and id bet the number of NO hits (which by the way was about 50 percent) would double.

Would I feel undergunned using a 10 loaded with heavy cast or a 44 loaded the same. Yup. if I knew that I was going out that day and a bear was going to charge me from 20 yard give me my 4 inch 500 Linebaugh loaded to the teeth. Ive shot enough game the size of deer and blackbear and pigs to have seen over and over the little effect being shot anywhere other then the central nervous system with any gun, even a 500 will do. I shot a 1000 lb buffalo behind the should once and watched it hardly even flinch and keep eating till it fell over dead. Gun was a 500 with a 480lfn at 1200fps. It had all the time in the world if it would have been a bear to get to me and eat a good bit of me before it died.

Id say to choose a minium gun for the job id ask myself what I would take if I was going to actually go hunt that same animal alone with that gun. If you feel fine going on a grizzly hunt with a 10mm or a 357 then its your but not mine. I love my 29. Its a great gun for protecting me from 2 legged creatures and even hunting medium game and I know guns like that and 41 and 357 mags are used by guys with more griz and brown bear experience in one year then I will see in my life but that 29 would feel about as small as my puckered but with a 800lb mad bear coming at me. Like you said black bear is a different thing all together. those I do have experience with and any gun you would feel comfortable shooting a deer with will kill a black bear just as well. I know a lot of dog bear hunters up here and most of them I know carry a 357 or 44 mag revolver or a 44 mag or 3030 rifle. Ive shot black bear with 41s 44s 45colts 475s and 500s. Never shot one with a 454 but it could sure be added to that list and to be honest never saw any of them stand apart from the rest with proper shot placement. Cool thing about black bears is they run the other way
I'm talking about grizzly bears in Alaska and Montana.
Nearly all of the bear attacks I have read about involve a sudden attack in thick cover and the bear making contact.
Nearly all encounters result in the victims getting off only a couple of shots.
These are sudden and terrifying encounters.
Therefore, a large frame double action revolver with a shorter barrel and maximum power is ideal.
My bear sidearm is a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5.5" barrel.
Not ideal. Having to thumb the hammer is a detriment and lying on your back with a bear on you and you trying to shove a gun into it's vitals is no place to try and also get the hammer cocked.

My other woods gun is Glock G29 10mm. Under powered for grizzly and will not fire with the muzzle shoved into the side of a bear's head.

So it seems obvious to me that double action revolver in .454 Casull with a 4" barrel is the ideal SIDEARM for a "typical" grizzly attack.

Why don't I have one? Because I rarely ever go far enough East in the Idaho woods to encounter a grizzly and my Glock loaded with 15 rounds of 200gr hardcast boolits are adequate for the wolves and cougars and smallish black bears that I run across.

But for folks that regularly hike and fish in grizzly country, in lieu of a long gun in .45-70 or 12ga, then the double action revolver makes the most sense.

[Crowkiller]

As Phil Shoemaker proved, a 9mm you have is better than a .44 you don't.
The 10 days I spent in the Bob Marshall Wilderness had me wearing a S&W 629 loaded with 310 grain wide flat nosed bullets at true magnum velocities. If I left the sleeping bag it was on me, if I was in the sleeping bag it was in reach. I figured the best way to not see a bear was to be prepared at all times.

[str8wal]

When a bear charges, isn't it's head down a bit? That should make for less angle of deflection, I would think. And the shot sould be probably not towards the top of the skull, but towards where the eyes are.

So you feel comfortable placing a bullet in the eye socket of a bear as it is bounding over blowdowns and around bushes on a deliberate charge? You are a better man than I ;-)

I would prefer a little more margin for error in shot placement and opt for a large bore heavy hard slug in front of a fairly stiff charge of slow burning powder and hope I can at least change his attitude if I don't kill him.

[str8wal]

As Phil Shoemaker proved, a 9mm you have is better than a .44 you don't.

Although I agree with that sentiment, that man was extremely lucky. If that bear had been charging with purpose I fear the outcome would have been much different.

[Lloyd Smale]

Sure it would but it also is pretty stupid to grab a 9mm when you have even a slight chance of a bear encounter. I don't take my 458 out when I want to pot a couple squirrels either. I guess my opinion is if you cant at least handle a 44 mag with factory loads then take a 12 guage. He can haul his glock 43 around in bear country. ME? Id rather your 629
As Phil Shoemaker proved, a 9mm you have is better than a .44 you don't.
The 10 days I spent in the Bob Marshall Wilderness had me wearing a S&W 629 loaded with 310 grain wide flat nosed bullets at true magnum velocities. If I left the sleeping bag it was on me, if I was in the sleeping bag it was in reach. I figured the best way to not see a bear was to be prepared at all times.

[pmer]

240168
After trying a lot of different shootin' irons, I have settled on this one. 4" 629 with 275 gr cast boolit over 2400 and CCI mag primer. I tried bumming around the fishing streams in Alaska with a shotgun, then a 358 BLR Browning but the long guns get in my way and if it is uncomfortable or cumbersome, sooner or later you are going to put it down or leave it at the cabin and you will be defenseless. I know all the downsides to a revolver as opposed to a 15 shot whatever, but I have shot this gun a lot and I am very familiar with it. It has been in the bottom of the Kenai River (while attached to my clumsy butt) 2 times and I just took it back to the cabin and dried it out by the wood stove and shot it a few times just to be sure. Whatever you decide to carry, remember to practice , practice, practice. Oh yeah, leave those candy bars at home, ole' smokey has a sharp sniffer.

This setup seems pretty hard to beat. A little more velocity than the Alaskan and 10mm's get quirky before the 44 even breaks a sweat.

[Ozark mike]

44 mag or 45 colt Ruger loads is the least id recommend

[bedbugbilly]

All I can say is that I'm glad I don't live where I have to deal with grizzley bears . . . heck . . I have enough trouble dealing with woodchucks! :-)

[Ozark mike]

All I can say is that I'm glad I don't live where I have to deal with grizzley bears . . . heck . . I have enough trouble dealing with woodchucks! :-)

Try pepper spray [smilie=f:

[outdoorfan]

So you feel comfortable placing a bullet in the eye socket of a bear as it is bounding over blowdowns and around bushes on a deliberate charge? You are a better man than I ;-)

I would prefer a little more margin for error in shot placement and opt for a large bore heavy hard slug in front of a fairly stiff charge of slow burning powder and hope I can at least change his attitude if I don't kill him.

Lol! Not many people would be confident in a charge. But somebody who is well familiar with their gun stands a better chance, even if it is only a 9mm.

I am questioning the idea that having a bigger caliber or cartridge really is more margin. The way I see it is that the bullet has to find the cranium, otherwise it's a bad day, 9mm or 500 linebugh.

And remember, this not in a hunting situation, but a self defense situation.

[Ozark mike]

I only know one person who shot a aggressive bear it was a blackie who was advancing slowly swinging it's head back and forth. the fella shot it in the head with a single 45 colt in a Ruger bh I can't remember the whole story it's been a few years ago. If a bear charges at full speed you won't have any time to take a good aim. you'll be lucky to get a shot off if your gun is holstered let alone get 10 solid hits with that auto. that's why I said I carry mine ready to go and want to have as much penetrating power as possible. my load will travel all the way thru even a quartering shot. I was in Libby sports the other day and a fella came in with his boy and he was trying to get him to look at the higher caliber revolvers this kid who was probably barely old enough to buy a gun wanted a little 9 mm that would fit in is pocket I said something can't remember what and he replied the boy wanted it for hiking I was stunned. Well good luck with that I replied.

[M-Tecs]

Lot of actual examples here for those that make the effort to read it.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5lg8n7VNb

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/outdoor-writer-re-thinks-pistols-as-a-defense-against-bears/#axzz5lgY3m2vJ

[Ozark mike]

The gun? A nine-millimeter Glock. It might be common to read on the internet that you need a huge revolver chambered in an impossibly powerful caliber to stop a bear, but based on real-world experience with bear attacks, Tactic teaches that it’s modern firearms and the modern shooting techniques they make possible that are most effective.


I'm just saying that more puts the odds in your favor. most people can handle a 44 mag or hot 45 colt at least. I don't expect everyone to shoot 500mags and the like I don't let anyone shoot my bfr because it has already sprained a wrist. Just take the biggest gun you can handle reliability and accurately. And if you like little guns bring a friend who likes something with more oomph. Remember these are huge killing machines. You're in there house they have the element of surprise

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the informative post/links, M-Tecs. Some surprising info in there. I'm kind of surprised that some of the cartridges worked as well as they did. I had completely forgotten about the .41 Mag. as being a good possibility. Seems as though the .44 Mag., with a 100% success rate in the cases cited is a very good choice. And the first example of a 9mm being FMJ ammo -- whooda thought?

[rintinglen]

i live in So Cal, at least for 8 more months, I find distance works the best for me. Haven't been bothered by a big bear in over 40 years.:-P

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for the informative post/links, M-Tecs. Some surprising info in there. I'm kind of surprised that some of the cartridges worked as well as they did. I had completely forgotten about the .41 Mag. as being a good possibility. Seems as though the .44 Mag., with a 100% success rate in the cases cited is a very good choice. And the first example of a 9mm being FMJ ammo -- whooda thought?

Like you I was very surprised by the effectiveness of the 9's and 40's. The other thing that surprised me was the number of times warning shots that were fired. What we don't know is how many times the warning shot ends the encounter? Personally if I was carrying one of the large calibers in a 5 shot revolver I am not sure I would take a warning shot. After having and using S&W X frames I find them to heavy and bulky for long term daily carry. Standing in a stream fishing for a week is one thing but living and working grizzly country carrying a X frame, shotgun or rifle daily gets to be a bit unrealistic.

Something like a Blackhawk, 629 or HiCap 10mm's can be carried without impeding your daily routine. It's good to know that the 10mm, 41's, 44Mag and 45 Colt class cartridges are more effective than most believe. In a HiCap 10mm these have a lot to offer https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219

A very good friend has owned a grizzly and salmon fishing guide service in Alaska for 40 plus years. He has stop numerous charges after clients wounded bears. He started using a 300 Mag than 338 Mag. Neither were as effective has he wanted. He has used a 375 H&H for the past 20 plus years and he has 100% confidence in it. He did have two clients that used 338 Lapua's. He stated they seems to do more damage than the 375 H&H.

Never hunted grizzly bears but I have taken a couple of black bears. Closest I have been to a grizzly in the wild is about 60 yards from a 9 feet male. That is an impressive animal.

[mattw]

The few times my wife and I camped off the beaten path in big bear country, she always packed a 44 mag 3" Smith and I had a 41 mag 3" Smith with WFN 260 grain lead in mine. Hers was loaded with 300 grain OWC lead. They were not fun to shoot, but if **** hit they fan, they would do the job.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Every time I see one of these legitimate bear threads that gets overrun by the shotgooners my head want to start blowing steam out my ears.
Shotguns SUCK for killing brown bear.
A fowling piece is not what is needed when a bear is inbound.
I've dug shotgun slugs out of smallish(7') brown bear that hadn't penetrated 8" into the chest. Didn't even break the closest bone.
Before making a statement, posters should get some experience with the subject.

An 18-20" barreled 416 Remington, Taylor, Ruger or 458 Win mag is just absolutely the ticket for stopping a bear charge. With the dead bear in a big pile right where it was shot. A large caliber handgun is only limited in it's effectiveness on bears by shooters accuracy. And load selection.
For a bear belly gun its hard to improve on a 4ish " or shorter da large revolver. However the gun Must be fully controllable with 1 hand shooting.
For me that rules out the 460 and 500 s&w . A Ruger SRH Alaskan in 480 , 454 or 44 mag has been a good working gun. And they have saved several people from getting mauled at close range.

A fowling piece will often turn a bear. But then there is a wounded bear to deal with.

The 45/70 and 450 Marlin Guide Guns work well with a big bullet at a moderate velocity. Like a 405 gr @ 1500-1700 fps.
No sense trying to load them hot. It causes reliability problems with them.

There is a case to be made for single action revolvers. Once the bear fight has begun, if you need to top off the cylinder , its Easter to do with a S.A. than a da. At least that has been my experience.

The other thing that will save your bacon when dealing with a bear is a good dog or 2.

Come on folks bears ain't revinuers or zombies.
I would much rather have a 10 mm autoloaders loaded with a mono metal or cast solid bullet @ 1100+ fps than a fowling piece loaded with Anything!

Never think you can rely on getting anything accomplished other than dying once a bear has got you !!!!!!!!!
It may not be God's time to call you to your final reward. Which is the about the only thing that will save you.
A 200 lb bear can rip the arms off the toughest ultimate fighter on earth.
Imagine what a 700-2000 pound bear can do.
Good dogs can be worth their weight in gold !!

[Ozark mike]

I would like to hear more about underpenetration with slugs that's the first I've heard of that. As far as hot loaded 45-70s I've never had problems from my loads being unreliable 500grns @1750fps. So any specifics would be nice

[M-Tecs]

I have shot one medium sized black bear with a copper slug and it worked lights out however not all slugs are created equal.

A very good friend of my dads safari hunted big time in the 70's and 80's. On one of his lion hunts another hunter wounded a lion. It was one camp with two PH's and two hunters. Both PH's and both hunters plus trackers went after the wounded lion. Both PH's switched to shotguns with slugs. Not sure what type of slug but back then you didn't have todays choices. The lion charged and multiple hits with the slugs failed to penetrate adequately or stop the charge. My dads friend stopped the charge with a spine shot with a 458 solid. At first he though he shot through one of the PH's taking the shot. The lion did knock the PH over but no serious damage other that maybe needing new underwear. After skinning the lion out both PH's stated they work never use slugs on lions again. Claim was the slugs looked like silver dollars. Foster slugs tend be soft so that would be my guess on what they used. I do know some of the ammo in Africa was not to our standards and hard to get. The PH's requested to bring extra ammo and or rifles to be left as part of the tip.

With todays options slugs should be a very good choice for stopping power. The only issue I have with shotguns is slung across the back they are slow to deploy. Front slings or hand held are quick but they get in the way of daily activities.

[35remington]

I am not sure how a 10mm with a solid bullet at 1100 fps can garner praise while a 12 gauge with far more projectile weight at considerably higher velocity with a wide selection of slugs available that are known for penetration (Brennekes, anyone?) can be derided as a worthless fowling piece when “loaded with Anything.”

Methinks someone needs to look into the matter more. Very relevant 12 gauge ammo choices are clearly being overlooked by anyone advancing such a notion. I can list a great many should anyone have difficulty understanding what they are missing out on when making such pronouncements.

[Ozark mike]

I always figured 10 ga rb would work well as long as it wasn't to soft that's one hunk of lead screaming along I would not want to be standing in front of

[jmort]

Few firearms have the terminal effect of a well constructed 12 gauge slug. Nothing living on earth will survive a solid hit from a Brenneke Magnum Crush or even better, the Dixie Dangerous Game slug. The Dixie Tri-Ball is a 1,000 grain freight train.

[M-Tecs]

Few firearms have the terminal effect of a well constructed 12 gauge slug. Nothing living on earth will survive a solid hit from a Brenneke Magnum Crush or even better, the Dixie Dangerous Game slug. The Dixie Tri-Ball is a 1,000 grain freight train.


These sound wicked.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

The Dixie IXL-DGS is .730" and weighs 870 grs. It is designed for rifled barrels and .729"/.730" bore smoothbore with cylinder chokes. The velocity in the loaded rounds is 1200'/" from 20" 12 gauge 3" Hastings rifled barrels. Dixie designed his slug as requested by experienced shooters in Alaska. It is a true Dangerous Game slug/bullet that will stand up against the most severe tests! It is cast from our standard bullet alloy and heat-treated.There are other offerings that call themselves DGS (Dangerous Game Slugs) that are nothing more than swaged lead. They will never stand up to the severe situations that the Dixie IXL-DGS is designed for. These slug/bullets will be offered in loaded rounds on the specialized order form and as components.

[Ozark mike]

Well I think we can agree that a heavy shotgun slug will do more damage then most pistols could Dream of. I know a moderate 45-70 load will travel lengthwise through a brown bear so a shottie slug should do better than 8in maybe a bad powder charge

[megasupermagnum]

Good grief. I won't even pretend to know about dangerous game, but I do know shotguns. From my experience shooting, testing, and hunting with shotgun slugs, there is NOTHING available to the common man that is more effective inside of 75 yards. There are plenty of powerful rifles out there like 375 h&h on up, but I wouldn't consider something like that affordable. The great thing, and possibly the bane of the misinformed, is that you can load a shotgun with all kinds of different ammo. A shotgun is the only gun you could truly hunt the world with. Soft rifled slugs are great for deer, but as noted, flatten out and don't penetrate that much. They go clean through deer chest from any reasonable angle, and leave a 1" hole in their wake. If you want penetration, you will want something like a Brenneke, or better yet, one of the hard cast slugs. You can find Brenneke slugs just about anywhere, and I've never recovered one from an animal. I've seen them go cross ways through a deer, 3 feet or more of penetration, and still a hole you can stick your thumb into.


I'm sure you can get 500+ grain slugs in 45-70, but they are only going to leave holes half the size of a brenneke slug.

[Chad5005]

I have a 500 s&w 8 1/2 inch barrel and a 480 in a tuarus with 7 1/2 inch barrel but my choice would be my raging bull judge in 454 with a 2 inch barrel in a chest rigg and a 870 in hand

[pmer]

Speaking of 12 ga. slugs I remembered a picture of a recovered slug from a yearling buck. It was under the skin on the off side, 30-40 yard broad side shot. I was surprised to recover it. (The one on the right on both pics) So I'm thinking a cheap box of 1 oz slugs would not be a good choice for big critters.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I am not sure how a 10mm with a solid bullet at 1100 fps can garner praise while a 12 gauge with far more projectile weight at considerably higher velocity with a wide selection of slugs available that are known for penetration (Brennekes, anyone?) can be derided as a worthless fowling piece when “loaded with Anything.”

Methinks someone needs to look into the matter more. Very relevant 12 gauge ammo choices are clearly being overlooked by anyone advancing such a notion. I can list a great many should anyone have difficulty understanding what they are missing out on when making such pronouncements.

From 1982 thru 2008 I lived almost continuously in dense bear country in Southeast Alaska. Working and living in the brush , thinning trees , logging and falling timber. Living in remote camps.
Everyone likes to talk up Brenneke shotgun slugs. Pie in the sky. I have seen Brenneke slugs for sale possibly 2 times in Alaska. They can be the best thing in the world. But if you can't get them then it don't mean nothin.
Where as a 416 or 458 is similar weight, no longer and very effective with almost any load you want.
Want mild recoil, load a 400 gr bullet to 2150 fps. Want the most instantly effective bear loads I've ever used. Load a 300 gr TSX to 2700-2900 fps.
A 350 gr Speer Hot Core @ 2450 fps is a great bear load . and any of the 40s and the 458 will do that easily. Even an 18" barreled 416 Taylor.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I've only found Brenneke slugs in 2 places in Alaska in over 40 years. And all the 12 ga was sold out both times.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Good grief. I won't even pretend to know about dangerous game, but I do know shotguns. From my experience shooting, testing, and hunting with shotgun slugs, there is NOTHING available to the common man that is more effective inside of 75 yards. There are plenty of powerful rifles out there like 375 h&h on up, but I wouldn't consider something like that affordable. The great thing, and possibly the bane of the misinformed, is that you can load a shotgun with all kinds of different ammo. A shotgun is the only gun you could truly hunt the world with. Soft rifled slugs are great for deer, but as noted, flatten out and don't penetrate that much. They go clean through deer chest from any reasonable angle, and leave a 1" hole in their wake. If you want penetration, you will want something like a Brenneke, or better yet, one of the hard cast slugs. You can find Brenneke slugs just about anywhere, and I've never recovered one from an animal. I've seen them go cross ways through a deer, 3 feet or more of penetration, and still a hole you can stick your thumb into.


I'm sure you can get 500+ grain slugs in 45-70, but they are only going to leave holes half the size of a brenneke slug.


A 300 gr 458 TSX with a mv of 2700 fps leaves a baseball size hole completely thru a 7 ft sq. Brown bear on a broadside shot from 50 feet away. Been there done that. That bear died at the speed of gravity. It was dead and on the ground before my fingers touched the bolt knob.

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting info here

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/147973-Brenneke-slug-use

"The 1 1/8oz Classic Magnum is our issue slug. I have a few kills with it and I don't have a problem crawling around in the alder bushes when necessary.

We've discussed the Black Magic and Special Forces slug, but until the original fails to do the job, there's no need to replace it. We also prefer to stick with the 2 3/4 shells. Several years ago in a training environment, I had a 3" shell hang up in the gun when I fired and tried to shuck the empty out. It was a true hang up not due to short stroking the gun and required surgery with a Benchmade blade to clear. I'm not about to trust 3" shells for a dedicated life-saving gun.

About three years ago, a 9 footer decided it would be a good idea to stick his head through an apartment window that was too small to crawl through and the occupant unleashed a Brenneke Original Classic Magnum from a 20ga. The bear ran off and was found by one of our guys traveling in the other direction about a half-mile away. Noticing the bloody cookie-cutter hole under the eye, he ended the chase with a 405 gr Cast Performance from a .45-70.

Anyways this was a big bear. His head was like a beach ball. When we skinned him out we found the slug had entered under the left eye cutting a nice cookie-cutter hole and wound channel, and traveled along the meaty part of the head coming to rest under the the hide at the back of the head. The only reason we didn't have to use a Come-Along to winch him out the window was because it missed vital organs and bone structure of the skull.

The slug was still intact, slightly flared at the front with the felt/cardboard wad still attached to the rear. As near as we could tell, the slug tracked straight from point of impact to where it come to rest.

That was the only Brenneke we ever recovered. All the others whistled right through. "

[Ozark mike]

This is a pistol thread so I'm going stick with the largest pistol that I can handle reliably which is a bfr 45-70 500grn slober knocker at 1500+fps

[megasupermagnum]

A 300 gr 458 TSX with a mv of 2700 fps leaves a baseball size hole completely thru 7 ft as Brown bear on a broadside shot from 50 feet away. Been there done that. That bear died at the speed of gravity. It was dead and on the ground before my fingers touched the bolt knob.
That must be a 458 win mag? That's the only thing I see close to sending 300 grains at 2700 fps.

In sure a big belted magnum would give a slug a run for its money. Comparing "common" calibers, its no contest. Say 300 win mag vs 12 gauge slug. The slug is better in every way... Inside of 75 yards or so.

[Ozark mike]

458 Lott or 460wby will also

[35remington]

I don’t mean to detour this away from pistols, but it is pretty clear that denigrating the shotgun as useless is not going to fly as an argument with the choices of deeply penetrating slugs that are available, so we will get back to that topic.

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.

As far a pistols go, it is a free country. Carry what you definitely will have on you and have reasonable evidence it could work. That is the best you can do.

[megasupermagnum]

458 Lott or 460wby will also

Both are big belted magnums. Not something the common man will have, even less likely to carry.

[Ozark mike]

More common here I know 2 who own a 460 James a guy I worked with and was bit of a *** shot a black bear in the neck. When they cut the skin around the neck the head fell off and the taxidermist gave him a funny look good rnd for elephant but probably to much for me around here

[M-Tecs]

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.


For the lower forty-eight very true. For most of Alaska not so much. The shipping regs make life a challenge of most of AK.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Well I think we can agree that a heavy shotgun slug will do more damage then most pistols could Dream of. I know a moderate 45-70 load will travel lengthwise through a brown bear so a shottie slug should do better than 8in maybe a bad powder charge

Well that's the thing . powder charge was just fine. The problem was shotgun slugs have horrible sectional density. Even the vaunted Brenneke slugs.
If someone made a handload with a 2 1/2 - 3oz solid shotgun slug . in 12 gauge. And it was movin along at 1100 fps or say an even 1000 fps. Then that might be a worthwhile option. However, the recoil on that is gonna destroy the average 12 gauge fouling piece.
Much better off to leave the scatter guns to the bird hunters and use a nice light rifle.
And from the results I know of from dozens and dozens of dead brown bear . Not just the several I've killed myself. Large caliber handguns and large caliber rifles just plain work for actually Killing bear.
Shotguns mostly end up running a bear off and it's left wandering around wounded.

So, a shotgun will probably keep a person from getting mauled. But what about the next people that may cross that bears path ?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I don’t mean to detour this away from pistols, but it is pretty clear that denigrating the shotgun as useless is not going to fly as an argument with the choices of deeply penetrating slugs that are available, so we will get back to that topic.

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.

As far a pistols go, it is a free country. Carry what you definitely will have on you and have reasonable evidence it could work. That is the best you can do.


See, there ya go.
Ammo can not be shipped to Alaska like it can down south.
It can come up with checked baggage on an airline ( small amount) Or it can be barged up ( any amount a person can afford ) or if someone is driving up thru Canada they can bring ammo with them.

So while in the big cities of Alaska. Maybe some store carries Brenneke slugs. Lots of Alaskans don't get to the big cities that often.

[JBinMN]

Not posting to start any argument, just some observations.

One is that IIRC, a member here at CB.GL forum is a retired Alaska State trooper. John Van Gelder is his name. His input on what he would suggest as a firearm to carry when having to deal with bears would likely be a good source as any for such situations, as the State troopers /Game wardens have to deal with problem bears & are not "hunting" bears. Their experiences with such things are likely worth paying attention to , as I would not expect the State of AK to send their trooper/game wardens out into danger without having a firearm they thought was capable of dispatching an angry bear, ( or moose). IIRC, they used 12ga Pump shotguns.

Secondly, and I know it is based of a TV show called "Alaska State Troopers", so some will likely say , "Aww, that is just TV.", but I do remember an episode I watched where the "well seasoned"/"experienced" AK State Trooper/Game Warden was going to investigate a person baiting bear too close to a business or dwelling, and his choice of firearm to go into where he might encounter a bear at the bait station, IIRC, was a 12 Ga, pump shotgun.
Now I am not saying that was the proper firearm, and also , like I said, I am not trying to argue. I am just making some "observations" only based on what I have come across.

Lastly, on a more personal note... My youngest sister lived in AK for many years. She was a Marine Biologist for the Univ.AK/State of AK, back during the Exxon Valdez spill & later one after that. She lived in a cabin remote from any "civilization" about 7 miles, part of which was not accessible by motorized vehicle much of the time & she either had to "hump it" to get in or out part way, or not get there at all.
During her trips in/out she carried a 12ga. pump shotgun & while around her place, as her bear defense. She is/was, about 5 ft. tall and slight in build, so she is not a big gal, but the 12ga. was her choice to carry. I might add that one time when I was living in VA, & she came to visit after spending a year in Antarctica doing research, she asked me to take her out to somewhere to shoot both my 44 Mag. SRH (7-1/2"bbl), as well as one of my 12ga. pump shotguns to "re familiarize" her with their operation & get used to being able to shoot them without concern.
When asked, at the time, which she preferred, she told me her choice was the 12ga. as she said she was more confident in using that, than the revolver.

I am only offering up such things as "things to consider".

P.S. - I think if I was going into "bear country" of any kind, my "preference" would be a 12ga. pump shotgun AND my 44 Mag., since those are what I currently have that I think would "fit the bill", & I am pretty certain that either one would do the job, if I did MY job, or I would be severely injured, &/or dead meat.
Knowing my own skills & experience with both firearm platforms, I would likely prefer the shotgun over the pistol now a days, as I have health issues concerning my hands that now make me more comfortable ( in ALL weather, I might add, like gloves being worn, etc.) using the shotgun over the revolver.

Well, that is my thoughts right now on the topic of DA handguns with bears , and the sidetrack of shotguns & rifles.

I have been enjoying reading in this topic. I hope that continues.
;)

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Actually, Gubmint employees are some of the worst people to get reliable info from.
Guarenteed income and golden insurance take alot of intelligent thot out of them.
The best bear stopping firearms are the firearms that bear guides use.
They only really make money from good trophy pics. Which means dead at their feet bears. Marginal or non existent insurance policies.
At least 75% of them use bolt action rifles in 375 H&H/Ruger and larger caliber rifles. I know Lots of guides up here and I don't know a single one that uses a bird gun.
Most/many of them also pack a large caliber handgun. Or have one handy for when they don't think they will need a rifle. Like around camp ect.
375 Ruger and 416 Ruger Alaskan, FTW and Guide Gun M77s are easily available
Just check Gunbroker.com. Buy one and have it shipped to your FFL dealer. Easy pie. About 100 times easier than finding a box of 12 ga Brenneke slugs up here.
Now if Buffalo Bore or CorBon or HSM started making and selling heavy hard cast 12 ga slug ammo. Things might change a little in favor of packin a bird gun. But they don't so that's pretty much that. Or if someone wants to reload shotgun shells with a heavy hard slug. But then your still stuck with low velocity and heavy recoil.
And as carbines like the Marlin Guide Gun is readily available and 45/70 and 450 Marlin ammo is also readily available. Why go with something that is more inconvenient and has such a poor track record.

Ase far as DA revolvers goes. I would love to have a SRH Alaskan in 454 or preferably 480 Ruger or a 2 3/4" Redhawk in 44 mag and or 45 Colt. I do have and pack a G20SF and load it with heavy hardcast. But am thinking I will be going to the 190 gr CEB copper solid fn bullet loaded to 1200 fps. Today I'll be out in the brush and will be wearing my 45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk 5 1/2" loaded with 320 gr Mihec 45 Ruger Max FN solid hard cast over 24 gr of H110. I might put a couple cup nose boolits from the same mold with the same powder charge first 2 waiting for the hammer.

[Ozark mike]

Actually, Gubmint employees are some of the worst people to get reliable info from.
Guarenteed income and golden insurance take alot of intelligent thot out of them.
The best bear stopping firearms are the firearms that bear guides use.
They only really make money from good trophy pics. Which means dead at their feet bears. Marginal or non existent insurance policies.
At least 75% of them use bolt action rifles in 375 H&H/Ruger and larger caliber rifles. I know Lots of guides up here and I don't know a single one that uses a bird gun.
Most/many of them also pack a large caliber handgun. Or have one handy for when they don't think they will need a rifle. Like around camp ect.
375 Ruger and 416 Ruger Alaskan, FTW and Guide Gun M77s are easily available
Just check Gunbroker.com. Buy one and have it shipped to your FFL dealer. Easy pie. About 100 times easier than finding a box of 12 ga Brenneke slugs up here.
Now if Buffalo Bore or CorBon or HSM started making and selling heavy hard cast 12 ga slug ammo. Things might change a little in favor of packin a bird gun. But they don't so that's pretty much that. Or if someone wants to reload shotgun shells with a heavy hard slug.

The use of the guide gun in AK is what got me Started in 45-70 fodder years ago.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I know dozens of people that have and pack Marlin Guide guns in 45/70 mostly and a few with 450 Marlins.
I'm a bolt rifle guy and had my final 458 Win mag built in 94/95 . Built on a stainless Ruger M77 Mk2. Its killed tons of brown bears all in an absolutely wonderful way.
I had a Marlin 45/70 . But didn't like how it would buck the action open with top handloads. And it was blued and wood stocked. I knew it would end up looking like a piece of old rebar on a piece of drift wood if I kept taking it with me in the skiff so I traded it on a stainless synthetic Model 70 338.
Skiffs and 4 wheelers and salt water and generally just being with me out in the brush is kinda hard on stuff.
Now that I live in The Interior. It would be fun to have a 45/70 GG again.
But I would run a 405 gr @ 1600 fps or less.

[RJM52]

...instead of a shotgun or large heavy rifle, what are the thoughts on a pistol caliber carbine... .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt...or .454...

With a heavy for the caliber HC bullet don't see why it wouldn't work and in a handy stainless carbine would be handy to carry...

[35remington]

It has already been pointed out that heavy hard cast slugs are available for the shotgun both as loaded ammo and as components that can be loaded. See Dixie slugs, for instance.

A person can figure out a way to get them (possible ways were enumerated earlier by other posters). Here is a place that has the desirable slugs in stock that delivers them anywhere in Alaska. That did not seem at all hard to discover, and glad to help. Search their inventory under “shotgun.”

http://10mmbelow.com/anchorage_inventory.html#!/Shotgun/c/18058104/offset=20&sort=nameAsc



Slugs do in fact penetrate very sufficiently and since this has mooted the question of shotgun adequacy or penetration, which was the original unfounded claim, back to topic.

I can’t see a pistol caliber carbine when something more powerful that weighs the same can be had.

The “buck the action open” thing with the Marlin occurs because recoil drives the gun against the hand holding the pistol grip and lever which opens the bolt. Consider it a head start on firing another fast shot and treat it like a gift. Said by a Marlin 45-70 owner.

Overly hot handloads make the fired round hard to eject. Different thing. Don’t shoot overly hot handloads as they can make the gun hard to operate when you need it most. If the loads are within spec and the lever opens easily you are in a desirable place.

[pmer]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

[Idaho45guy]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

Mine too... Though it is currently loaded with 250gr Hornady FTX loads, or 300gr Hornady XTP loads. It replaced a lever gun in .45 Colt as my camping and hiking carbine since it is 2lbs lighter and packs more punch in .450 Bushmaster.

240518

[Cold Trigger Finger]

...instead of a shotgun or large heavy rifle, what are the thoughts on a pistol caliber carbine... .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt...or .454...

With a heavy for the caliber HC bullet don't see why it wouldn't work and in a handy stainless carbine would be handy to carry...

I think a pistol caliber carbine is a GREAT option ! Even a 357 mag. A friend has one with an 18" barrel. He has shot the 180 gr Buffalo Bore HC ammo in his Marlin and Chronographed it at over 1850 fps.
It might not be my A#1 choice. But it is most definitely useful and effective.
A guy in Fairbanks who is a member here iirc has a Rossi 454 that gets very good velocity with heavy boolits.
Years ago I got a few boxes of CorBon 320 he Penetrators in 454 for my Model 83 Field Grade. They were Fast and I'm sure would be even faster from a carbine.
With a 44 mag or 45 Colt loaded with a 300 gr or heavier boolit that was 100% on the cycling would be excellent.
Why Winchester and Marlin haven't come out with carbines in 454 and 480 is a great mister to me.
The big thing with the 44 and 45 is that they are twisted fast enough so the bullets/ boolits stabilize.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

I agree . much better than a bird gun

[Cold Trigger Finger]

[QUOTE=35remington;4634614]It has already been pointed out that heavy hard cast slugs are available for the shotgun both as loaded ammo and as components that can be loaded. See Dixie slugs, for instance.

A person can figure out a way to get them (possible ways were enumerated earlier by other posters). Here is a place that has the desirable slugs in stock that delivers them anywhere in Alaska. That did not seem at all hard to discover, and glad to help. Search their inventory under “shotgun.”

http://10mmbelow.com/anchorage_inventory.html#!/Shotgun/c/18058104/offset=20&sort=nameAsc



Slugs do in fact penetrate very sufficiently and since this has mooted the question.


In fact, lots of slugs DONT penetrate sufficiently
No doubt that in Nebraska you have had to deal with hundreds of problem bears in your line of work.
I know that I have on the coasts of Alaska since about 1979 . The first time I went tent camping on Kodiak Is.
The shotgun thing has been gone over and over and over and over.
Guides and bush Alaskans use rifles and sometimes handguns to deal with problem bears. If you want to use a bird gun against problem bears where ever you are that's fine with me. But experience has proven that it is a very poor option overall.
Up here if we see someone packin a shotgun for bear defense we know that he is a city boy or a cheechako.

BTW, my 458 weighs 8 lbs9 oz with 4 rounds of ammo and a strap sling. With the muzzle brake it has a 21 1/4" barrel from the receiver ring forward.
Being a stainless Ruger M77 Mk2 it is the toughest rifle known to man. Also the safest .
Which brings up a whole nuther reason why many firearms aren't optimal for the role of bear protection.
HOW SAFE IS THE SAFETY ON YOUR BEAR PROTECTION GUN ?????
As most of the time an up close bear encounter will resolve itself without a shot being fired. But the gun needs to be brought to bear on the bear. Finger OFF the trigger firearm ready to fire at the stroke of the trigger.
How much is involved to get to that point.
One of the strongest points in favor of a double action revolver.
How easy is it to accidentally bump the safety to the fire position while going about your day or night.
One of the reasons I chose the M77 Mk2 is when the safety is on full safe it does not get bumped off and yet is very easy to move into the fire position. The only other safety on a rifle that is as secure as the M77 Mk2 Ruger is the 98 Mauser military safety. But it takes a little more doing to get it off safe.
Even in dense bear population areas , the miles a person will pack their gun compared to how many times they will need to use it to repel a threat is quite a bit. However, the firearm always needs to be ready for immediate use.
I've had the button safety on 870s and JC Higgins and the tang style safety on Mossberg 500s and 835s get accidentally bumped to the fire position.
I've had hammers get partly cocked on exposed hammer lever rifles and carbines and the tang safety on old M77s and #1s get bumped off. Rem 700 safeties get bumped to fire all the time !!!
Even the safety on P14 and 1917 Enfields have got flipped to the fire position
The slide safety on commercial 98 Mausers can be easy to accidentally slide into the fire position. I've had a bunch of them in 375 and 458. And my current ( hopefully final) 416 Rem mag is built on a commercial 98 Mauser. A Whitworth Express action. The CZ550 safety and BRNO 602 is a good safety, and yet I bumped one off accidentally once. Course the old style where the safety is pulled rearward to the fire position I never bumped off. But, I had to make myself think of those safeties like I would cocking the hammer on a lever gun.
The big thing to be aware of is what it takes to keep a safe firearm safe.
With Glock and XD striker fired autoloaders, all it takes is protecting the trigger and the XD actually needs the grip safety depressed. A DA revolver just needs the hammer protected. Same with a SA revolver.
I taught myself to automatically flick the safety off on my M77 Mk2s .

[Ozark mike]

I'm not ragging on anyone or there weapon's but I'll trust a lever or bolt gun before I will a auto they tend to fail when I need em. I am talking cleaned lubricated guns that usually fire fine. Until a nice deer is standing in front of ya and the 30 carbine fails to cycle the 2nd shot

[Ramjet-SS]

458 SOCOM SBR really is a good choice it hits like a hammer is reliable and easy to maneuver. 460 grain WFN hard cast are formidable round to say the least. With good brake you can cycle them fast in am AR.

[35remington]

I see the above was quite a post in terms of length, but in any relevant testing including the Linebaugh tests the penetrative shotgun slugs do quite well. There are quite a few available to purchase now. Neither of those two statements are opinion based.

There is no need to lump all shotgun slugs in the same category. Many are specifically designed to penetrate well, and they do. If someone avails themselves of those particular designs they will be well served in that regard.

It is still mystifying how a handgun can gain approval for such yet shotguns heaving 600-875 grain slugs are claimed to be underpenetrative by the same source by classifying all slugs as similar in an overly broad and misleading statement. We’re not discussing factory Winchester soft swaged slugs in making this refutation of those claims. That needed to be made clear.

[40-82 hiker]

In keeping with the OP's question, I do not think a DA best in situations involving Griz. Back in the day I carried alternately a 12 ga., and or a Ruger BH. I far preferred the 12 ga. with slugs. However, I do feel a DA is superior in the referenced situations to my SA Ruger BH. Unless skilled in other-thumb cocking, using the grip-thumb to cock the hammer grossly weakens the hand grip on the pistol. This seems a rather important point to me, but JMHO. With the DA, or even the semi-autos, one can squeeze the grip for all on is worth with one or two hands, and never weaken the grip.

[jmort]

Lloyd has been to the Linebaugh seminars. There are members that worked with Dixie Slugs and the late great James Gates. The Dixie shotgun ammunition performed as expected, excellent. According to a member here who tested the Dixie slug, it had the largest wound channel of anything that stood up to the test. Penetration was more than enough at 45"
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=181

[megasupermagnum]

Don't even engage the guy. Clearly he is just looking for a fight with us who like our "fowling piece" as though this is the 17th century.

[JBinMN]

Lloyd has been to the Linebaugh seminars. There are members that worked with Dixie Slugs and the late great James Gates. The Dixie shotgun ammunition performed as expected, excellent. According to a member here who tested the Dixie slug, it had the largest wound channel of anything that stood up to the test. Penetration was more than enough at 45"
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=181

Thanks for that link.

[35remington]

Good advice. Just pointing out contradictions where they exist.

[pmer]

Mine too... Though it is currently loaded with 250gr Hornady FTX loads, or 300gr Hornady XTP loads. It replaced a lever gun in .45 Colt as my camping and hiking carbine since it is 2lbs lighter and packs more punch in .450 Bushmaster.

240518

Yeah I like my socom as well. My 45-70 is down the road. I would still want a 4 inch model 29 on me. The biggest rifle I could use for hunting at the moment would be a 358 winchester.

[Earlwb]

Of course, maybe we are all going about it wrong. This Russian guy chased off a bear using a special bat.

240574

[jmort]

There is a lot of information out there on the terminal performance of Dixie Slugs. A prior version, less formidable than the current Dangerous Game Slug, did this at the Linebaugh Seminar according to one of our most knowledgeable members who is active on our Shotgun Sub-Forum:

"The 730 grain hard cast .73 caliber Terminator moving out at 1268 FPS, penetrated 29 inches into the wet pack. This round blasted a 4 inch wide tapering tunnel for the biggest "wound channel" of the seminar!

The slightly deformed nose of the Terminator on the left above occured when one round was fired too close th to top of the paper. It exited the paper stack near the end of its travel and slammed into the heavy pine support board.

For comparison, a Federal .416 Rigby round with a 400 grain Partition, penetrated 30 inches with a considerably smaller displacement of the test medium."

[Idaho45guy]

Of course, maybe we are all going about it wrong. This Russian guy chased off a bear using a special bat.

240574

I think it has something to do with the track pants. Russians love track pants...

[Earlwb]

I think it has something to do with the track pants. Russians love track pants...

Yeah, track pants might be it, but it looks like he has a special bear bat. Maybe that is just the ticket.
;-)

[pmer]

Of course, maybe we are all going about it wrong. This Russian guy chased off a bear using a special bat.

240574

My guess is that the guy is chasing the youngster off of his vodka still.

[M-Tecs]

Look at the lack of claws in the pics. My guess it's a trained bear or a bear in training??????????

[Ramjet-SS]

Well the track pants official pants of the Russian Mafia and he is really bearing down on him with that bat......:bigsmyl2:

[BAGTIC]

More likely to be killed in a traffic accident or drunken brawl than by a bear. But then paranoid hysteria sells better than reality.

[Idaho45guy]

More likely to be killed in a traffic accident or drunken brawl than by a bear. But then paranoid hysteria sells better than reality.

Especially in Missouri...

[curioushooter]

I can agree to staying out of bear country the best defense against bears.

It's hard for me to imagine a better "bear gun" than that new S&W model 69. Small/light enough it will actually be carried and stainless. 5-shots of 44 mag (I'm thinking 265-310 grainer). I don't think increasing the bore size will do much good. With larger bore to maintain the same sectional density you will end up with a very heavy bullet with very heavy recoil for a reasonable carry weight revolver. The 3+ pound revolver in the safe doesn't help much.

On second though I might argue that a 6 or 7 round 357 loaded with 180 or 200 grain hard cast bullets in the front and expanded JHPs in the back and TRAINING FOR A RAPID and ACCURATE MULTI-HIT response may be a better strategy. I have absolutely no doubt that 3 to 7 deep penetrating 357s delivered well and fast will be far more effective than one-well placed 454 followed by another that goes into the dirt/air. And definitely better than one 10mm followed by a pistol hurled at the bear's face.

SA revolvers are just silly for everything in my opinion. I had a Blackhawk once...I can safely say it is the only handgun I've sold for which I've had zero regrets. They are slow to fire and even slower to reload and have stupid grips. I even think they are ugly. They were obsolescent in the 1890s. There is nothing that a SA can do that a DA/SA can't do better and faster. I bought the thing because it was a 44 and I wanted a 44 and couldn't afford a Model 29 or 629. At least I sold it for exactly what I paid for it.

I would never trust an auto for that sort of thing. I've worked with 10mm a bunch. And though my S&W 1076 never once jammed or had any other failure I never loaded it with heavy for caliber bullets appropriate to the task (nothing over 200 grains). Just too much risk of a malfunction as autos are designed to work in narrow bullet weight/velocity ranges. It's always when you do something weird that they have problems too. Since nearly everybody shoots at a very artificial controlled setting--the range--and never deliberately limp-wrists or does weird things to make their autos jam the belief in their reliability tends to be misguided in my estimation. Most autos I CAN MAKE JAM if I want to. A particularly good way to do it is use hot ammo and then shoot it over a box or table so you maximize the arc of the recoil motion. This can bonk your wrist with the slide or throw the slide stop up against the slide. The high-reliability biased autos like Glocks usually have sloppy chambers with large unsupported areas in the back...perfect recipe for disaster when you "load for bear." I had a H&K P7, arguably the most reliable and one of the best designed/tested/made auto-pistols of all time...if you shot it rapidly with certain ammo the trigger guard would get so hot it would cause blisters.

[onelight]

Yup the model 69 looks like a sweet all around cary gun to me .
If get another S&W revolver that will be it.

[Ramjet-SS]

Every time a I see a new post I still think about the Mossberg Shock wave on a three point shorter than a SBR handles slugs really well and of course buckshot.

[curioushooter]

Are there nice holsters for those Mossberg shocks?

[M-Tecs]

I have the Remington Tac 14 version. I find them to be the most fun toys I own. I liked it so much I purchased a second one. I play with them a lot. I even shoot trap with them for fun and I have shot geese with them. From the 16 yard line 18 to 22 is normal. As a serious bear defense firearm them would be my last choice. Slow to aim, compared to handguns bulky to carry, requires both hands to shoot and with heavy slugs recoil is excessive. I have over 2,000 rounds through mine.

Grizzly bears have been stopped with bird shot, however, I want with something with more penetration than 33 or 36 Cal round balls.

000 buckshot .36" - 68 grains

00 buckshot .33" - 54 grains

With a laser on them they become a vary viable home defense firearm since you can hip shoot them and actually hit something. Even though both Mossberg and Remington state not to fire them from eye level that is really the only way to score consistent hits.

[charlie b]

Just curious. What pistols do professional fishing guides carry in grizzly country?

[jmort]

I have the Remington Tac 14 version. I find them to be the most fun toys I own. I liked it so much I purchased a second one. I play with them a lot. I even shoot trap with them for fun and I have shot geese with them. From the 16 yard line 18 to 22 is normal. As a serious bear defense firearm them would be my last choice. Slow to aim, compared to handguns bulky to carry, requires both hands to shoot and with heavy slugs recoil is excessive. I have over 2,000 rounds through mine.

Grizzly bears have been stopped with bird shot, however, I want with something with more penetration than 33 or 36 Cal round balls.

000 buckshot .36" - 68 grains

00 buckshot .33" - 54 grains

With a laser on them they become a vary viable home defense firearm since you can hip shoot them and actually hit something. Even though both Mossberg and Remington state not to fire them from eye level that is really the only way to score consistent hits.

You should try a Tac 13
I bought one for ... too much on gun broker a few months ago
Price, not surprisingly is $200 lower now, but I just had to have it.
I agree, shooting at the hip is sub-optimal, but I will keep practicing. Had an Aimpoint on it and trying out lasers.
For CQC it works real good with #1 buckshot
Highly recommended.

[Earlwb]

Are there nice holsters for those Mossberg shocks?

DeSantis makes a nice one. Several others make nice holsters for it too.
ref https://www.desantisholster.com/kurz-shotgun-case/

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-r31ah3s0ci/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/472/1165/A88-Kurz_Case-OnBody-Across__79312.1547439573.jpg?c=2

[M-Tecs]

You should try a Tac 13
I bought one for ... too much on gun broker a few months ago
Price, not surprisingly is $200 lower now, but I just had to have it.
I agree, shooting at the hip is sub-optimal, but I will keep practicing. Had an Aimpoint on it and trying out lasers.
For CQC it works real good with #1 buckshot
Highly recommended.

I purchased the Tac 14's when Remington had the rebates on them. I have $249.00 in to each. I would love to have a Tac 13 I just don't want to spend that much.

With the laser they come into their own for CQC. Normally I am not much of a fan of the cheap Chinese stuff but these have worked very well for me. Maybe I just got lucky but with the vertical foregrip the center of the light is perfect for POI. The green laser is very bright.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tactical-Green-Dot-Laser-Sight-Light-Rifle-Scope-w-Remote-Switch-Weaver-Mount-US/311748532230?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Rifle-Remote-Switch-2-Mounts-Tactical-532nm-Green-Laser-Dot-Scope-Sight-Flyg/222946685378?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tactical-Vertical-Foregrip-1000LM-LED-Flashlight-Green-Laser-20mm-Rail-For-Rifle/162845784604?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[Texas by God]

DeSantis makes a nice one. Several others make nice holsters for it too.
ref https://www.desantisholster.com/kurz-shotgun-case/

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-r31ah3s0ci/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/472/1165/A88-Kurz_Case-OnBody-Across__79312.1547439573.jpg?c=2If it had a pocket on the other side for a machete, it would be perfect!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[rintinglen]

After due consideration, I am opposed to bears having fire arms, even for defense.

[bmortell]

some say the earliest way that man defended against predators was large numbers of people throwing rocks. so ill bring 30 baseball pitchers with a carrier full of rocks, hmm.. ya that sounds effective