1941 Johnson....ruined

[RugerFan]

While browsing a small LGS, this "gem" caught my eye. I'm not sure I've seen a more unholy bastardization of what was once a fine and somewhere rare piece of military history. Talking to the guy behind the counter, he said the Gun Broker ad has brought about a deluge of hate messages. People don't realize this is actually a consignment piece and not his personal handy work. (Someone even said "Go kill yourself!"). I cannot fathom what the "gunsmith" was thinking here. Sometimes Bubba needs to shoo away the good idea fairy...

https://i.postimg.cc/YqPHS25x/Johnson2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Yes, it's been rechambered for 338-06.
https://i.postimg.cc/7ZTyJ8Dr/Johnson.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[abunaitoo]

I'd give him a dollar for it.
Then take it out and give it a proper burial.
Guy has no respect for for historical firearms.

[corbinace]

While not my "cup o' tea", I cannot help but wonder if the original condition of the arm were such that this may have been an improvement. Maybe it was completely trash to start????

[LAGS]

Nobody ever wants to listen to the Back Story about how things came to be.
I once picked up an old Mauser that had literally been run over by a truck.
The barrel was bent, the sights were damaged, the stock was Cracked in two, and the trigger guard was smashed.
It had been sitting in a barn for 30 years and was heavily rusted.
I tore it down and installed a Take off barrel from an old JC Higgens 30-06 , and made a new sporter stock, polished and blued the metal.
I was able to straighten the trigger guard, and get the rifle working again.
But all I got in response was, "You Ruined History."
You should have left it the way you found it, it might have been a collectors piece.
(The Rifle was run over on a Farm here in the U.S not in some Battle in WW2)
People would say,
If you had the skills to make the rifle shoot again, you should have restored it back to The Original Condition, No Matter what the cost.
But If it was restored to the Original Condition, then There is NO history, and No Value, no Matching part numbers.
It is then a part gun that is worth $100.
But as a Sporter, it ended up making a good inexpensive First Rifle for a mans oldest son, and probably got passed down to the other sons.
The History was Ruined when someone accidently ran it over with a truck.
But now the rifle at least has a chance to make a new Memories, and once again, be used as a Tool that is Functional.

[GunGuy2756]

I don't understand why some people get so nasty when it comes to these things. His gun, he can do what he wants. Why he would modify a rare and valuable 41 Johnson is anybody's guess. I don't like it either but I certainly wouldn't send the guy death threats. Some people are wound way too tight.
I've seen people freak over a modified Mosin even though there were like 20,000,000 made.

[Dan Cash]

I bet Melvin might have liked this treatment of his brain child.

[T_McD]

Well the paint job is hideous no matter what weapon it is on.... but the thing is rechambered so it’s not like it has any collectors value anyhow. I am sure there are at least 4 other people in the world who may buy it!!!

[RED BEAR]

Its not my cup of tea . But if thats what the OWNER wanted to do then thats up to him. I make my guns suit me no one else. I have sporterized or bubba'd several of my guns . Had friends complain i shouldn't change them but pretty much every one that complained likes the finished result. I couldn't care less whether anybody likes it or not i do. Yes i would prefer the johnson in original form but thats me the gun was not mine. If you can't stand it the way the owner did it buy it and restore it anything can be put back with enough time and money.

[JSnover]

Maybe it was junk to begin with, maybe the 'smith never owned a complete 1941 but had a pile of miscellaneous parts in the shop and some time to kill. I wonder... how does it shoot?

[toallmy]

Sorry guys , but if I buy it - it's mine . I'll make it work for me like I want .

I'm not a collector .

[nekshot]

well, I kinda like it. Sure cannot complain about caliber. I like model t's original but favor those with v-8 in them. So its a win from me.

[Texas by God]

Amen, LAGS!
I can’t see how the barrel can recoil to function the gun now. The Johnsons are recoil operated. If I wanted it- I don’t- I would just offer to repay the labor spent to build it. For 5 grand I could have a new Browning auto in .338WM and three nice Garands.

[Tackleberry41]

That Johnson way have been covered with rust in some closet, duracoat will cover the rust pitting better than the original finish. I know people laugh at my frankenstein. But I was given the 1911 frame, heavily pitted with rust, $0 value. I was going to maybe modify it to make some sort of single shot. Instead I did like a car, filled in the pits, and duracoated it. It goes bang with a new slide and everything else. But can hear people screaming now, you ruined that classic pistol. No I saved it from the trash heap.

[Markopolo]

I also Amen to what LAGS said.... I have so many pieced together but functional guns put together with parts, it ain’t funny. In fact, I love to take a rusted Junker and make something out of it. I call it resurrection gunsmithing.. and I dont particularly care how cruddy of a gun it was originally. If I can make a working tool, who knows what lengths I might go.. it’s the journey...

[Hardcast416taylor]

As much of a fan of the .338/06 cartridge as I am, this nightmare of a fine rifle and this excellent cartridge has given me a sour taste in my mouth. I found it humorous that he wanted a start bid of $5K, I wouldn`t give him .05 cents.Robert

[Black Powder Bill]

It's what the customer wants. Yep the internet has unlocked untold and never explored reaches of the Firearms owners brain.

Imagination & science fiction hold no bounds now.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[Winger Ed.]

I don't understand why some people get so nasty when it comes to these things.

I think its the 'arm chair quarterback' syndrome.

People are most critical of things they think they are experts on, but really know very little about.

[Bazoo]

Well, I like the paint job. If I was in a pawn shop and they were selling it for 250.00 and a disgusted look, I'd buy it. It would be interesting to know the story behind it.

Lags, thanks for sharing. That looks pretty darn nice. It's a story and history, that's what I like.

[T_McD]

Well, I like the paint job.

Well there ya go!

[Traffer]

That is the coolest rifle I have ever seen. Thanks for posting. I am thinking about buying it.

[LAGS]

@ Bazoo
Thank you.
The OP in this thread did not include any Back Story, so naturally people are going to jump on him, because they assume that he Butchered a Perfectly Good Piece of history.
He probably bought it as a Cut Up Parts Kit that was Legal to sell under BATF regs.
But without a class 3 Manufactures license, he can not make and sell it as a machine gun.
and he is limited to where and to whom he can sell it to.
And most of you, including me would not want to buy it at any price.
It just isn't our cup of tea.
The Re bore of the barrel is a good indication that the barrel was worn out or rusted, so why not make it workable rather than a piece of iron hanging on the wall that nobody knows the real history, or story behind it.
I would commend the Smith for his efforts, but still would like to know the back story, even though I would never consider buying it.

[Finster101]

That is the coolest rifle I have ever seen. Thanks for posting. I am thinking about buying it.


Did you forget the purple font?

[EO1]

For whatever reason, it's still an abortion.

[Texas by God]

The 1941 Johnson was semi auto and the space age looking LMG was full auto.

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[country gent]

While that rifle in the picture doesn't do anything for me, Nope not going to make a bid on it for any reason. I also have to wonder when this conversion was done ( how old it is now). A perspective to consider is How many Springfields, mausers and other military rifles were [I]sporterized[I] in the 50s to the eearly70s when this craze was popular. Now these rifles by known makers are prized and considered collectors. I have seen a couple SKS and garands sporterized over the years also.

[EO1]

There were much more '03s, mausers, etc made than Johnsons. But even if was a Mauser, it would look like ****.

[jimb16]

My Mama taught me, if you can't say something good, don't say anything! That is the only thing I can say.....

[Earlwb]

That is a pretty neat gun though. The 338-06 round is a good hunting round nonetheless. It was owned by someone, and they can do anything they want with it. Now then I am not a fan of painting a gun as the paint wears off and scratches easily. So I don't do it. But maybe a cerakote finish or something would be good. Anyway it is priced way up there for something like this. But I am sure some rich guy will want it.

[ascast]

I like it- cool paint job. as for backstory- wasn't the Johnson noted for stocks breaking? or some other catastrophic failure? I'd feel no shame having it as is in my pile, but $5,000 really?

[Texas by God]

I couldn’t find that one on GB but there is a sporter stocked ( conventional walnut) 1941 Johnson on there and it has a starting bid of 5 grand as well.

[Hamish]

I'm still trying to verify that there's a Johnson under all that garbage,,,,,,.

[waksupi]

I just wish I had bought a Johnson back when you could still get them for $150.

On the bright side, if you own a nice example, this project just increased the value of your rifle, by one less as-issued example being available.

[WILCO]

I don't understand why some people get so nasty when it comes to these things. His gun, he can do what he wants. Why he would modify a rare and valuable 41 Johnson is anybody's guess. I don't like it either but I certainly wouldn't send the guy death threats. Some people are wound way too tight.
I've seen people freak over a modified Mosin even though there were like 20,000,000 made.

I agree.
This is what happens when the daycare survivors think they're adults.

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

I bought my first military surplus arm in 1958, as a 14 year old, for $13.99 and she is original in my vault. I was earning $1.00 per hour for lawn mowing. I was troubled to see all the many fine arms beyond my cash flow at the several local gun shops. I suffered much more when the "sporterization" craze butchered so many fine arms.

My only wish is I would have liked to be as rich as I am today in 1960. So may fine arms that my patient LGS shops allowed me to handle back then are now gone forever.

Adam

[richhodg66]

I am fully on board with the "his rifle, he can do what he wants with it" mentality, I truly am, but that is still painful to look at.

[Bazoo]

Wonder how it shoots?

[T_McD]

I am fully on board with the "his rifle, he can do what he wants with it" mentality, I truly am, but that is still painful to look at.

Exactly, but’s it’s worth a giggle at least....

[FLINTNFIRE]

Years ago about 1997 went shooting with a friend he had a johnson semi auto 30-06 , his name was johnson and he shot it but it was not functioning up to snuff , I believe he sold it before he passed about 5 or more years ago, to each their own , I like original military , but have a few that were made into sporters , still fine in my book .

[gnoahhh]

Absolutely it's his rifle to do with as he pleases. But, a couple of thoughts:

A) I can't help but wonder if the thought, time, labor, and money couldn't have just as easily been expended in making it original as it was in making it an abomination. He could have just as easily made it right as make it a flight of fantasy. "I can't find a Johnson barrel." Of course not, but a guy with a lathe and a mill can make one. "Where would I find a stock?" You won't, but you can make one. Or conversely make it a Homeric-like quest to root out the original parts to put it in original condition- rare as they are, they're out there somewhere.

B) We reach a point in history where we have an obligation to maintain icons for future generations, especially those that are relatively rare. Analogy: would kids in the year 2119 have a better sense of automotive/corporate history by viewing an original immaculate 1932 Ford V-8 roadster or a crummy '32 Ford hotrod? Beautiful original '32's are far more valuable than the rod Uncle Jimmy built in his garage in 1973, even if Uncle Jimmy did a bang-up job. To sacrifice such icons as early V-8's and rare rifles on the altar of personal whims denotes a degree of aesthetic bankruptcy and disregard for future generations.

[avogunner]

I'm in the "keep it original" camp. Yes, it's his rifle to do as he pleases, and yes who knows what shape it was prior to that rebuild but IMHO, it's just plain awful.
It reminds me of when those dumb a**es at Red Jacket firearms built Jesse James a BAR. They butchered an original to "create" something unique for him. Different strokes I suppose.
Semper Fi.

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[T_McD]

B) We reach a point in history where we have an obligation to maintain icons for future generations, especially those that are relatively rare. Analogy: would kids in the year 2119 have a better sense of automotive/corporate history by viewing an original immaculate 1932 Ford V-8 roadster or a crummy '32 Ford hotrod? Beautiful original '32's are far more valuable than the rod Uncle Jimmy built in his garage in 1973, even if Uncle Jimmy did a bang-up job. To sacrifice such icons as early V-8's and rare rifles on the altar of personal whims denotes a degree of aesthetic bankruptcy and disregard for future generations.

I think this is where a lot of folks disagree (at least I do). Cars and guns are tools not art. I would rather see tools used, abused, and restored to functionality than transformed into an art exhibit. I know I appreciate seeing old cars out on the road even if they aren’t faithful recreations of the original

[1Hawkeye]

Ya but look what happened to that jerk at red jacket. Had the ATF been paying attention they would have nailed him by episode three.

[KCSO]

I once pulled the shell of a rusty smle magazine form a junk bucket cut it down to a 1/2 mag put in new spring and follower and refinished it and was chided here for ruining a piece of history. If it was good in the first place I wouldn't have messed with it. On the other hand I have turned down numerous jobs of sporterizing??? a gun because it was in too good a shape to mess up.

[LAGS]

I have a brand new Lee Enfield #4 Fazarkerly that is still unfired in .303
A friend offered me $1000.00 for it 5 years ago.
But then I found out that he intended to pull the barrel, and install a Parker Hale .308 barrel and glue wood to the stock to make the grip more of a Palm Swell for long range shooting.
I told him I would not sell him the rifle , if he intended on butchering it up.
I suggested he go find some Already Bubba'ed piece of junk that had a bad barrel and rebuild that.
But he said, no, He wanted a brand new Original Receiver and bolt so it was more accurate and New wood to start his modifications.
Some people just have more money than Skill.

[Thumbcocker]

IIRC many Johnsons were rebarrled to 7 mm and sold in central America. Maybe there are some original barrels out here and it could be put back.

[JSnover]

Geeez. Johnsons aren't exactly lying all over the place but there's no point in carrying on as if the was the last known example, especially since no one knows what condition it was in before. If the previous owner turned a pile of scrap into a functional (if ugly) rifle, more power to him.

[Traffer]

Is it not much ado about nothing? Butchering guns, tools, and equipment is an art. I don't think I have ever owned a gun that I haven't ruined. That used to be painful to me especially enduring the shaming that I would get from peers and family about how I was a bad person for destroying things. The fun is cutting and prying bending and filing trying to improve on something that needs no improving. When I am done what do I have? ...education.

[Ozark mike]

Yes they are tools but what a person does with there stuff is there business wether it is there family or tools noone has a right to say otherwise that's what real freedom is

[flint45]

that Johnson is ugly but then it started life ugly, one of the worst looking rifles ever they look like a soup can.

[303Guy]

I have a brand new Lee Enfield #4 Fazarkerly that is still unfired in .303 .....


Butchering such a gun would a crime punishable by death. Thank goodness it is in safe hands. :drinks:

Brand new unfired Fazarkerly? It must be worth a fortune!

[LAGS]

Thank you .303 guy
I have that rifle and a long branch in excellent condition and do not intend on Bubba'ing either of them.
But I do have a plastic stock and a no drill scope mount for my long branch left over from other Enfields that I owned previously, that I will use if I decide to take the long branch out Hunting.
That way the original stock doesn't get messed up, and I might be able to hit a deer with my eyes as poor as they are now.

[JoeJames]

I have seen many examples of what started out as near mint military, but someone obviously spent a lot of money with a gunsmith converting them. Just shake my head thinking first of all how much did the feller spend to ruin the rifle or pistol, and then how much of the value was stripped away. Worst I have seen was what appeared to have started out as an M1 Garand, but was converted with a Mannlicher stock, the rear sight was ground off, and a buckhorn sight replaced it forward of the receiver, and the upper front sight ears were also ground off and replaced with a standard front sight. One had to look closely to determine it was once an M1. The job was well done as far as craftsmanship, I must say, and the owner had spent a fair amount of money on it, but the actual value was not just nill, but well nigh negative.

[troyboy]

We are still free to do with what we wish. My money,my toys, my sandbox. Some have more money then sense.

[EDG]

If you just baby sit a rifle for 20 to 40 years you have wasted your time and life. You would get a lot more enjoyment by wearing it out.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

+1 EDG, a like-new rifle is a rifle that had no purpose and was not used and enjoyed. Firearms 'finds' in pawn shops and gun shops are firearms that were not very important to the previous owner or families that inherited them. If not important to the original owner I will use as I see fit. Recoil pads, different sights, trigger and stock modifications are my choice. The firearms history has been LOST.
I knew WW II vets that brought home Mausers and Arisaka's, they cut 'em up and went hunting with them. History was not their concern, nor who would cry 30-40 years later. Without condition or provenance a firearm only has value to its owner or what he can get when sold. The guy with the worn toys out on the range/in the woods beats the guy with a pile of expensive toys sitting at work.

[Baltimoreed]

I came across a sporterized Johnson many years ago, in fact saw it at numerous Raleigh shows. At least it was still wood and blued steel but not as issued.

[roverboy]

While not my "cup o' tea", I cannot help but wonder if the original condition of the arm were such that this may have been an improvement. Maybe it was completely trash to start????

Yeah, that might be the case. At least I hope it was...…..

[FPGT72]

I don't understand why some people get so nasty when it comes to these things. His gun, he can do what he wants. Why he would modify a rare and valuable 41 Johnson is anybody's guess. I don't like it either but I certainly wouldn't send the guy death threats. Some people are wound way too tight.
I've seen people freak over a modified Mosin even though there were like 20,000,000 made.

People that usually "freak" know what they are looking at.....they may have made 20mil Mosin's but when some idiot cuts up a french made rifle people get a little upset. Most people that give items like this a pass are people that have no clue as to what they are looking at.

Unless this was done in 1950, and by the looks of it I doubt it, there is no reason on the planet to screw up an old military rifle....just walk down to your wallmart buy the most inexpensive Savage or Mossberg and that will out shoot 99.9% of the bubba rifles you see out there.

The only way this would get a pass if it had been sportered back in the day.....and even with that items that fall into this class should be put back to original.

[fatnhappy]

Last time I checked, this is still America and a man can dispose of his property in any lawful manner he chooses.

[rbuck351]

To me, it's kind of like a Picasso painting. They are are worth a bunch of money to some, but to me the canvas should be reused to paint some thing worth looking at. The Johnson was ugly to start with but it's now worse. Oh well, there's still originals in museums that I can look at if I want so no big loss. Not being my gun, what business is it of mine if the owner chooses to do what he did.

[Kev18]

I bought a mosin and modified it. People were livid. Its mine so I did what I wanted. I collect old rifles, but more 19th century lever guns. I really dont care about a mosin, especially that it was just a basic model, I also have an sks.

https://i.imgur.com/gcJ0OI0.jpg

[GranddadsDadsMine]

Nobody ever wants to listen to the Back Story about how things came to be.
I once picked up an old Mauser that had literally been run over by a truck.
The barrel was bent, the sights were damaged, the stock was Cracked in two, and the trigger guard was smashed.
It had been sitting in a barn for 30 years and was heavily rusted.
I tore it down and installed a Take off barrel from an old JC Higgens 30-06 , and made a new sporter stock, polished and blued the metal.
I was able to straighten the trigger guard, and get the rifle working again.
But all I got in response was, "You Ruined History."
You should have left it the way you found it, it might have been a collectors piece.
(The Rifle was run over on a Farm here in the U.S not in some Battle in WW2)
People would say,
If you had the skills to make the rifle shoot again, you should have restored it back to The Original Condition, No Matter what the cost.
But If it was restored to the Original Condition, then There is NO history, and No Value, no Matching part numbers.
It is then a part gun that is worth $100.
But as a Sporter, it ended up making a good inexpensive First Rifle for a mans oldest son, and probably got passed down to the other sons.
The History was Ruined when someone accidently ran it over with a truck.
But now the rifle at least has a chance to make a new Memories, and once again, be used as a Tool that is Functional.

Love this! If you're willing to put the time and effort into something and make something that was ruined into something that's great and can be cherished by someone then job well done in my mind. There will always be a time and place for a collectors item, something that has seen a different era than our own. There will also always be a spot for the ones that don't have that chance! At least its usable and from what I can see, is a beautiful rifle. As im sure most of us have a hand me down or two, they're not always the collectors piece that they may have once been. Make use of what you've got, collectors or not, historical or just plain history :D

[Larry Gibson]

Were Johnson alive today he may very well would have loved this rebuild/conversion. Given the AR bolt carrier and bolt operation are almost the same as the Johnson rifles because Johnson designed both. Johnson was, in fact, hired by Stoner to assist in the development of the AR10 and AR15 rifles. Also if one bothers to read Johnson's book published in Ordnance circles one would find a lot of similarities to his predictions.

I know it's heresy but every "old" or milsurp firearm are not "collector's" items.........Just my own personal belief is all......

[hazmat]

I don't have a problem with making a damaged gun go bang again. I once picked up a sportered 7.35 Carcano for the princely sum of $15. Handguard is still missing and Bubba's rear peep install is still there. I did sand out the Ronnie James Dio butt-stock carving and re-stain everything. With an assortment of cobbled together bolt parts, I made a serviceable deer slayer out of it. I started with ugly and finished with ugly, but serviceable. The Johnson above (though possibly useful) is REALLY ugly!!

[Happyguy]

Such a waste.

[Pappy_Miles]

Interesting modernization. Although "this old rifle syndrome" inside of me wonders what condition the base Johnson was in, I sorta like what he created. You gotta hand it to him for a modernization ingenuity. I mean, look what that did to the M1 - garand in the 50's through modernization and redesign. Changed the caliber, put a 20 shot magazine on it, heavy duty muzzle break / flash suppressor on. Major improvements. until the stoner came around.........hmmmmm maybe a great concept rifle if the Johnson had won out over the M-1????????????

[Bazoo]

Were Johnson alive today he may very well would have loved this rebuild/conversion. Given the AR bolt carrier and bolt operation are almost the same as the Johnson rifles because Johnson designed both. Johnson was, in fact, hired by Stoner to assist in the development of the AR10 and AR15 rifles. Also if one bothers to read Johnson's book published in Ordnance circles one would find a lot of similarities to his predictions.

I know it's heresy but every "old" or milsurp firearm are not "collector's" items.........Just my own personal belief is all......

I didn't know that, thanks Larry. I'll have to chase down a copy of that book.

[leadman]

I remember seeing an ad in probably the American Rifleman from the Johnson Company that had sporter Johnson rifles in it. I think some were 7X57. I have passed on all my old American Rifleman mags but think it was around 1950??
I restore 1891 Arg. Mausers when I can. Some are beyond that so I make them into truck guns. Not every old gun is worth the time or money to restore.
Can't say why the Johnson ended up like that and would be interested in the story on it.