Pressure data, .44-40 WCF BPCR

[Captain*Kirk]

Does anyone have, or have a URL to, pressure data for .44-40 BPCR loads fired from a 24" barrel in CUP's? I would like to compare the smokeless data I have to the actual pressures developed with both 3F and 2F powders.
Thanks!

[Cast_outlaw]

If any one dose it’s probably savvy jack he posted pressure data on several threads from his test barrel there is a wide difference between brands and such
Here is the link
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?6684-44-40-p

[John Boy]

Kirk ... your on your own. Hope you own a chronograph for starters ...
http://closefocusresearch.com/calculating-barrel-pressure-and-projectile-velocity-gun-systems

Output will be in psi - so you will have to re-calculate to CUP

And candidly, I believe your doing a needless exercise ... 44-40, 200gr bullet, 39gr FFFg = 820 fps

[Captain*Kirk]

Kirk ... your on your own. Hope you own a chronograph for starters ...
http://closefocusresearch.com/calculating-barrel-pressure-and-projectile-velocity-gun-systems

Output will be in psi - so you will have to re-calculate to CUP

And candidly, I believe your doing a needless exercise ... 44-40, 200gr bullet, 39gr FFFg = 820 fps

Well, you could be right, so I'll explain my reasoning:
I intend to load .44-40 using smokeless for my (Navy Arms) Winchester '66 (brass Henry-style receiver). There is plenty of load data out there for smokeless Cowboy rounds shooting a 200gr boolit complete with all the MV and CUP levels. What I want to do is to make sure I don't exceed the design data for this receiver. Since this rifle was born in 1978 my guess is it was designed to shoot smokeless...but at what pressures, I have no idea. And I don't want to exceed them. The CUP readings vary greatly depending on which smokeless powder you are using (it's my intent to use Unique). I figure if I stay within original .44-40 specs I'll be good to go.

[EDG]

The SAMMI specifications are industry agreed to standards.
Rifles manufactured or sold in this country are intended to use SAMMI standard ammo unless marked otherwise such as "For Black Powder Only".
In 1978 I do not remember that there was much in the way of loaded 44-40 BP ammo around so your rifle is intended for the SAAMI smokeless. Any black powder cartridges sold in this country would also be required to meet the SAAMI limits.

44-40 CUP is listed on page 21 of this document

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf


.44-40 piezo is listed on page 33.

[curator]

Capt*Kirk:

The older Lyman reloading books separated .44 WCF (.44-40) into 2 classes, "weak" actions like the Win. 66 and '73 models along with Colt Lightning, etc. and "strong" actions such as the Win '92. Loads for the "weak" actions had pressures less than or equal to black powder loads. Unique is a good powder for black powder equivalent loads with the 200 or 215 grain cast bullet. I usually load 7.5 grains of Unique with the Lee .430-210 RNFP boolit cast from AC 50/50 COWW and pure lead. This is relatively low pressure and accurate.

[Ozark mike]

Lyman cast handbook says 13700 cup

[Ozark mike]

There Is a lot of information here I recommend picking up this book. It lists all the different guns to what pressures they can withstand but only lists 2 bullets

[Springfield]

There are plenty of load recipes out there for Unique, why not just use one? Like you said, Cowboy loads are out there, so I don't see the problem. I think you are over-thinking this. I have 2 1866's and a Henry, and have had no problems at all.

[9.3X62AL]

Do a search for W30WCF's several threads on loading smokeless powders in the 44/40 WCF for 1873 Winchester actions. I believe has has (or had) a website dedicated to the subject as well. True name was John Kort, and he passed away in the recent past.

[Captain*Kirk]

The SAMMI specifications are industry agreed to standards.
Rifles manufactured or sold in this country are intended to use SAMMI standard ammo unless marked otherwise such as "For Black Powder Only".
In 1978 I do not remember that there was much in the way of loaded 44-40 BP ammo around so your rifle is intended for the SAAMI smokeless. Any black powder cartridges sold in this country would also be required to meet the SAAMI limits.

44-40 CUP is listed on page 21 of this document

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf


.44-40 piezo is listed on page 33.

Thanks for that link! There is a truckload of info there!

[Captain*Kirk]

Capt*Kirk:

The older Lyman reloading books separated .44 WCF (.44-40) into 2 classes, "weak" actions like the Win. 66 and '73 models along with Colt Lightning, etc. and "strong" actions such as the Win '92. Loads for the "weak" actions had pressures less than or equal to black powder loads. Unique is a good powder for black powder equivalent loads with the 200 or 215 grain cast bullet. I usually load 7.5 grains of Unique with the Lee .430-210 RNFP boolit cast from AC 50/50 COWW and pure lead. This is relatively low pressure and accurate.

Just received my new copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition; it does the same class division but doesn't specifically list the '66 Winchester or Henry models though it does include the '73. I guess I'm pretty safe sticking with mid-range "weak action" loads.

[Captain*Kirk]

There Is a lot of information here I recommend picking up this book. It lists all the different guns to what pressures they can withstand but only lists 2 bullets

Thanks, just got my copy.

[john.k]

I knew several shooters bought the brass frame replicas in the 70s..............they were all dismayed at the rate the actions became loose ........around 1000 rounds ............and with light loads..........the looseness seemed to be more due to mechanical wear that action strength.

[John Boy]

Data from John Kort - Historian of 44WCF Data:
These are all safe in the ’73 Win 200-217 gr cast bullets

6.2/Titegroup – favorite plinking, target load – 1,150 f.p.s.
6.5/Trailboss – will bump up soft undersized bullets – 1,000 f.p.s.
12/Blue Dot / 16 /4227* / 16/4759* – replicates original smokeless loading – 1,300 f.p.s.
26/RL7* – replicates the original semi smokeless loading – 1,450 f.p.s.
*magnum pistol primer
Kirk - you will not find any better information for modern smokeless reloads compared original loading data

[Captain*Kirk]

Data from John Kort - Historian of 44WCF Data:
These are all safe in the ’73 Win 200-217 gr cast bullets

6.2/Titegroup – favorite plinking, target load – 1,150 f.p.s.
6.5/Trailboss – will bump up soft undersized bullets – 1,000 f.p.s.
12/Blue Dot / 16 /4227* / 16/4759* – replicates original smokeless loading – 1,300 f.p.s.
26/RL7* – replicates the original semi smokeless loading – 1,450 f.p.s.
*magnum pistol primer
Kirk - you will not find any better information for modern smokeless reloads compared original loading data

Thanks, John Boy! I have considered using Trail Boss as it is readily available, but is not cheap in comparison to other smokeless powders. I do quite a bit of .44 magnum and .380 ACP loading with Unique and have a pretty good supply of it which is why I was making it my first choice.
Can you explain the "bump up" of soft undersize bullets part in more detail, and why would Trail Boss do that when others wouldn't? Or is that something only John Kort would have known?

[Captain*Kirk]

I knew several shooters bought the brass frame replicas in the 70s..............they were all dismayed at the rate the actions became loose ........around 1000 rounds ............and with light loads..........the looseness seemed to be more due to mechanical wear that action strength.

That was one of the first things I looked for. This thing is tight as a cheapskate's purse strings and in all honesty I am questioning whether it's ever been fired. The 'elevator shaft' is super-clean and I would guarantee no black powder has ever gone through it before.

[Outpost75]

...I have considered using Trail Boss as it is readily available, but is not cheap in comparison to other smokeless powders...Can you explain the "bump up" of soft undersize bullets part in more detail, and why would Trail Boss do that when others wouldn't? Or is that something only John Kort would have known?

Exerpt from The Fouling Shot on loading .44-40:

"... Trail Boss appears to have a quicker pressure rise, (according to a chart made by someone in SASS testing it in a .45-70) than even black powder. [John] Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled with a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the factory loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups..."

[Captain*Kirk]

Exerpt from The Fouling Shot on loading .44-40:

"... Trail Boss appears to have a quicker pressure rise, (according to a chart made by someone in SASS testing it in a .45-70) than even black powder. [John] Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled with a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the factory loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups..."


OK, makes sense now. Thank you, sir.