Lawman's Levergun

[KCSO]

Here's what I have carried in the trunk for over 30 years. I'd rather have this or my 30-40 than any AR made.
It will stil shot cast into 2" or so at 100 yards and has finished off everything from coons to a bull.

[KirkD]

Unlike the AR, if you happen to take a dive with your levergun in the sand or mud, you can probably pick it up, dump the sand out of the barrel and action, and start shootin'.

[9.3X62AL]

KCSO--

I hear ya, sir. I've always thought highly of the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 in 30-30 WCF as a very capable patrol rifle. At my first duty station, there were about a half-dozen pre-64 Model 94s in the armory. The widespread selection of the AR-15 series rifles for this role has as much (or more) to do with platform familiarity to potential users and menacing appearance as any cartridge performance factor. Of course, just about any centerfire rifle is a LOT better to have than any centerfire handgun when the SHTF.

One example of suet-headed immortality, well-earned by an admin pogue in front of witnesses. I do wonder where such people were found, and what color the sky really was in their world. A discussion of patrol rifle platform types was had c. 1999, right after the AR-15 series rifles were approved as patrol rifles by my agency. One little problem--both State and Federal AW bans made such rifles nearly impossible for deputies to obtain in CA. Legislation came later to amend this, but the agency didn't want to buy new rifles apart from the surplus rebuilt M16A1 rifles received from the Federales.

What to do.........the suggestion was made to include bolt-action rifles in 223 caliber with scope sights installed (try finding bolters with open irons in 223 caliber......) as patrol rifle platforms. The admin pogue's response was to say the following--"Those are too accurate, we're not sending out sniper squads on school sites or bank robbery incidents."

Too accurate. I kid you not. Did I mention how happy I am to be retired?

[Old Ironsights]

I just took the M92/.357 out this weekend to make sure I'm ready if/when the Chicago-Gary area begins burning.

I'm good offhand to man-sized targets to 200yds.

11 in the tube and one up the pipe - plus 5 on the hip & 30 in speedstrips.

I should be just fine.

[looseprojectile]

Have one in .357, .44Mag. and .45Colt, all Rossi made.
I feel adequately armed. Also have the AR, it is also too accurate:roll:.

Life is good

[missionary5155]

One nice old Winny ! Thanks for the foto !!!
This is my 1892 SRC 44-40 Never popped anything bigger than a cement block so far.. no critters in our DRY hills.

[Dutch4122]

Our department authorizes AR's for patrol use. We have a handful of Federal Grant M-16A1's and several Officers have purchased their own AR-15's of various brands.

I made the mistake of mentioning to one of my co-workers that carries an AR-15/M-16 variant in the patrol car that if we were allowed; I'd be perfectly content to be armed with my Winchester Trails End in .357 Magnum as a patrol rifle.

By the look on his face you'd have thought I told him I wanted a slingshot & a handful of rocks!:veryconfu

This "x-spurt" then proceeded to edjamacate me on the incredible stopping power and lethality of the 5.56 Nato round. After all, everybody that knows anything about weapons(condescending jab towards me, the dept. "gun nut") is aware that the 5.56 starts tumbling in the air as it flies to the target; thus creating greater shocking power and a large wound channel. I just laughed in his face after pointing out to him that his AR had rifling in the barrel in order to impart a spin on the bullet that keeps it flying straight; and that tumbling bullets are no more aerodynamic than rocks. Not sure that he understood me at all.

At any rate I'd still be happy with a levergun in .357 or .30-30 any day. As a matter of fact, a Marlin 336 Stainless in .30-30 and an all steel receiver site with a Williams Firesite front bead would be my idea of darn near perfect.

[Bret4207]

We carried Winchester 94 30WCF until the 1950's. I'd be happy with one today, or until I retire anyway.

[Just Duke]

The tumbling that the .556 round did ( couple a decades ago) was after it hit the target. This was caused to high a spin rate that was over stablizing the round. This was later cured by a different rate of twist in the barrel.

[oldhickory]

There's just something about a well balanced lever-gun that gives the owner a sense of confidence and controll in most any situation.

[Just Duke]

There's just something about a well balanced lever-gun that gives the owner a sense of confidence and controll in most any situation.
Yep!
Set aside a big slow moving bullet.

[Scrounger]

The tumbling that the .556 round did ( couple a decades ago) was after it hit the target. This was caused to high a spin rate that was over stablizing the round. This was later cured by a different rate of twist in the barrel.

Rate of spin was increased in "improved version". Initial tumbling problem was caused by bullet not spinning enough for it's length. A flat based 55 grain bullet would have been OK but the boat-tail made it long enough to de-stabilize easily. When they changed the rifling twist, they also increased the bullet weight (and length) to 62 grains. They went to a rifling twist of 1 in 7.5 inches, which better stabilized the 62 grain bullet and would maintain stability in sub-zero temperatures. Apparently they anticipated extensive usage in Alaska and the Polar region.

[felix]

Ice Station Zebra. ... felix

[mike in co]

the std m16 twist is 7.7........but the reasons are an poor engineering decision by a government commitee...lol.......re went from a 12 twist in an a1 to 7.7......and bullet weight/length went from 55 to 62/64. a 10 or 9 twist would have done fine...or even the very popular civilian 1/8.



ok the real reason for the twist change.
there was no tracer round for the a1. when the squad weapon was added with a tracer the issue surfaced. the 64 gr bullet is long for its weight. the back end is full of chemicals, not lead. this bullet did not like the 12 twist bbl at all. so the squad did not get a 1/12 bbl. how they jumped to 7.7 is beyond me, but in the end all rifles went to 7.7...all driven by the tracer birth........

mike in co

[KCSO]

In 1973 during the peak of the AIM movement and after a barricade situation our department looked into carrying rifles in the patrol cars. Since we were all carrying 357 revolvers I shoowed up at range with my carbine and we tested the rifle. Range and accuracy were acceptable and the power at 100 yards was the same as the revolver at the muzzle. Everyone who tried the gun liked it and was able to hit well with it at 100 yards. The idea was dropped when the powers that be decided the rifle looked too COWBOY. The Department was shotguns only till 2003!

[Old Ironsights]

Well, you know my opinion on that... Better "Cowboy" than SPECOPS Ninja...

[Boomer Mikey]

The LAPD is adopting the Beretta M4 shotgun for patrol use. We talked to a group at the range qualifying with them and the instructor said they are very accurate out to 100 yards. With a variety of "tactical" loads they provide a solution for many variables in various "situations".

In my book a 1.5 ounce slug knocking on your door is very convincing compared to a 60-something grain bullet.

My urban warfare battery is all 45... 45ACP, 45 Colt lever, and a 450 Bushmaster with 300 grain hardcast GC bullets... cars don't provide cover for these loads. The 300's do well out of the 45 Colt lever gun too.

Home defense is covered well with a Mossberg 590 and a bandoleer holding 25 "tactical" solutions.

If I could only have one... it would be a 45 Colt carbine lever.

Boomer :Fire:

[KCSO]

Mikey,
When that slug knocks on the door , goes through the wall and knocks on the neighbors wall, who pays the bills. With modern house construction a 22 bullet will goe through 2-3 walls. A 9mm bullet from a 10" barrel will go through a whole house. The 223 has a place in urban situations as the bullet breaks up easily and is actually safer to bystanders than 00 Buck.

I work in the country and most of my work is with cars in isolated areas or destroying injured animals. If I have to go into town for a call I will grab the AR if I need a long gun. Shotguns are effective and provide mazimum intimidation value, but you always have the liiability of multiple projectile loads or overpenetration with slugs. When L/E pulls the trigger we pay for every bbuckshot that misses and ever thing damaged aside from the bad guy. You hiit the bad guy coming out of the liiquor store with 8 buck shot and the 9th hiits the clerk in the wrist. You've just saved his life and he's sueing you because he will<"NEVER WORK AGAIN!"

This is why the troops on the ground need acess to a variety of weapons from stun rounds to rifle. Our cars carry 1 12 bore, one rifle and each Deputy has a hand gun on his belt. For active shooter each unit has a jump bag with ammo, food , water and a couple of field dressings. If I worked in an urban setting and if I could only have ONE weapon other than my side arm I would probably opt for a rifle with frangible bulllets.

[Bret4207]

I'm in pretty much the same situation as KCSO, although this area is much more built up than where I used to work. A shotgun, even a slug gun with decent sights, just isn't the precision instrument a rifle is. I'd be perfectly satisfied with a something like an AR or Ruger Patrol Rifle in 45 GAP (same round as our Glocks) or any other auto loader round over 9mm. A 223 or larger cal rifle would be okay too. A 357 lever gun would work. I just don't have a lot of faith in most people handling a 12 ga, 14" barreled shotgun as a precision weapon. I never liked the bucksot idea for police work, except when providing cover fire.

OIS- Better cowboy than ninja?! Never fly with a senior cadre of police and political brass brought up on TV and falling for the slick advertsing for the latest and greatest...

[WildmanJack]

When I left the Sheriff's Dept. in 1984 I was assigned to an anti smuggling unit. I ran a boat off the east coast of Fla. We were OLNY allowed to carry .357 revolvers, and shotguns ( with buck shot). We talked to our Capt. about being "undergunned" on the water after catching a guy with a .50 cal mounted in his drug boat. He "allowed" us to purchase M1 Carbines. We put folding stocks on them with 2 30 round mags taped together so the bad guys would think they were something other than what they were. It worked till he saw them and said they were..."Too offensive looking"..... I left shortly there after!!!
Jack

[Boomer Mikey]

You guys are right of course,

The problem of over doing things is a major concern for LE and one that must be considered carefully for the safety of the innocent. Thank you for reminding us.

For home defense I use #7.5 or 8 shot trap loads for that very reason.

The LAPD instructor we talked to said there is significant improvement in "tactical" shotgun loads that improve patterns out to 100 yards with small shot in the Beretta M4. It's just another tool and trend worth mentioning.

I'm not in Law Enforcement and I appreciate the constraints officers must work within; however, If the bad guys come to get me or my family we're prepared to defend ourselves with overwhelming force if it becomes necessary.

No offence intended to those of you that serve us well with dignity and respect for others. Placing your regard for the safety of others ahead of your own personal safety is the ultimate respect for all citizens and the tradition of your honored profession.

Boomer :Fire:

[cajun shooter]

After reading all the above I remember why I was under stress as a Range officer, sniper and narcotics officer. There seems to be someone in every dept. that makes decisions on the firearms carried that sits in a office far from the danger. Back in 65 I was told by a very wise sargeant that the people who start wars don't have to fight them!! I was taken to the hospital once and given time off without pay when the doctor raised my pant leg up and reveald a S&W mdl 60 back up. The lieutenant that observed this was a desk jockey. The back up rifle that I now have for SASS is a Marlin 1894 357 that was sold by the dept when it was found to be too powerful for Parish Prison guards to have. I guess that the only thing I miss is the fellowship. Take Care

[Poohgyrr]

KCSO--
The admin pogue's response was to say the following--"Those are too accurate, we're not sending out sniper squads on school sites "
Too accurate. I kid you not. Did I mention how happy I am to be retired?


We had those days too. Thing was, back then, buckshot was OK in schools, but accurate rifles were not.... And we could easily need 200 yard shots... Happily, that Admin finally left and much more modern thinking types were brought in. And yeah, with Dept budgets being what they are, individual AR buying was finally OK'd. And we do (still) have the "newly discovered" "loophole" that allows for AR types to be bought by (non LEO) good people. That probably won't last for long though.

They still won't let me use my Levers either.. :(

[Bret4207]

You guys have to remember- the street cop is cannon fodder as far as much of the public and most of the brass is concerned. Our local Supreme Court Judge once said, "A Trooper has to expect to get beat up every once in a while". With thinking like that, it's no wonder wehave the problems we do.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Back in the late sixties-early seventies, When we were getting ambushed and suffering booby trapped call boxes, by Obama's friends Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dorhn, and Joann Chesimard (Black Panthers and Weather Underground). We weren't issued any long guns, having to make do with our .38spl. revolvers. Many of us, me included, purchased Rem. 870 "Police Specials" and Ithica 37's, In defiance of NYPD "special orders", to carry in the trunks of our RMP's. Had to watch out for the Indians AND the brass!
Boy, sometimes, the job really sucked!
Morgan

[Dutch4122]

You guys have to remember- the street cop is cannon fodder as far as much of the public and most of the brass is concerned.

Sad, but true. I remember in 1995 when our department was still transitioning to high capacity 9mm's; one of our township board members found out through casual conversation with a female officer that the new pistol she was issued held 15 bullets and that she also carried 30 spare rounds in two magazines for a total of 45 rounds.

Her reaction made it obvious that she was more concerned with what we might do to one of her constituants than with our ability to defend ourselves on the street.

[WildmanJack]

Back in the late sixties-early seventies, When we were getting ambushed and suffering booby trapped call boxes, by Obama's friends Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dorhn, and Joann Chesimard (Black Panthers and Weather Underground). We weren't issued any long guns, having to make do with our .38spl. revolvers. Many of us, me included, purchased Rem. 870 "Police Specials" and Ithica 37's, In defiance of NYPD "special orders", to carry in the trunks of our RMP's. Had to watch out for the Indians AND the brass!
Boy, sometimes, the job really sucked!
Morgan

Morgan, you got that right. Back in 69 we had a group of Black Panthers knock off a local gun shop. We had the info and got a search warrant for the house we knew they were in. I had to "BORROW" a bullet proff vest from another dept., and we only had one shotgun for the entire dept. The chief issued us "Construction Helmets" with badges glued on them!!! Thankfully the Panters had left town along with their booty, but you can imagine the thoughts that went thru our minds.. Another that's glad to be out of Law Enforcement, and no longer Cannon Fodder !!!!

:drinks::drinks::drinks:

Jack