Single stage press comparison test

[doulos]

Don't know how many have seen this from Ultimate Reloader. Wow! This was definitely a lot of work. Interesting stuff.
https://ultimatereloader.com/2019/04/08/fourteen-reloading-presses-compared-single-stage-shootout/

[MrWolf]

That was a lot of work and a bit over my head on some.

[jmort]

It is very interesting
Not sure I would ever buy a press named "Turban" but it stood pretty tall.
The Lyman Brass Smith also did well overall.
The Rock Chucker did well
As did the Redding Big Boss
The sizing force was interesting
I bought a used Hornady Iron Press and I like it, but the sizing force was way bad.
At least it has very little slop.
I usually size on an A2 or a Big Max which were not tested

[onelight]

The rock chucker test showed why so many here recommend it. It looks like the bargain precision press.

[jmort]

It is one I would consider.
The Turban is around a grand so I guess you pay a high price for precision.

[onelight]

It was outperformed so not sure how you get there.

Maybe I missed something . Was it outperformed by something cheaper ? While in at least one category was second to a press that was more than 4 times as much.

[doulos]

It is very interesting
Not sure I would ever buy a press named "Turban" but it stood pretty tall.
The Lyman Brass Smith also did well overall.
The Rock Chucker did well
As did the Redding Big Boss
The sizing force was interesting
I bought a used Hornady Iron Press and I like it, but the sizing force was way bad.
At least it has very little slop.
I usually size on an A2 or a Big Max which were not tested

I thought that was interesting. But can you really feel the difference? I mean I have a Redding Big Boss 2 and a Rockchucker. The rockchucker scored slightly worse for peak sizing force. But the Rock chucker seems easier to size with to me. But it could be a handle location issue. How does the Hornady Iron "feel" when compared to any other press you have? I would be interested to hear from those who can do direct comparisons>

[country gent]

I would be interested to Feel that turban Perazi press. with the ball bushings and bearings its go to be smooth. While $950.00 a big part of that is the 5 ball bushings and hardened and ground shafts for them. The ball bushings run around $150.00 apiece.
I get the shop up and running I may make one. though I think Ill use Steel plate instead of aluminum. A press with a 5 1/2" opening would be interesting.

[Winger Ed.]

Gosh that's a lot of work.

In the early 80's I got a Hornady 007 (that has evolved into the Lock-N-Load classic) when I started reloading.
It was just by chance I got it instead of something else.

When I got back into reloading, I got the L-N-L because I liked my old 007 so much with the way the opening is offset.
I've used a rockchucker, but it always wanted to pinch my finger, and I had to look around it to see what I was doing.

Everybody I know was using RCBS or Lee stuff, and poo-pooed on my Hornady.

After reading the article and seeing the author praise his Hornady----
I feel vindicated!


I'll probably put a set screw in the frame to lock in a L-N-L bushing.
I'm too tight to spend $5-6 each for a sack full of bushings to fit each of dies I use.
I find it is a solution for a problem I don't have.

[1hole]

For what it's worth, bullet tilt measurements "at the ogive" are meaningless. I assume he means at the bore diameter but bullet ogive is the entire forward surface from full body diameter to meplat. Anyone wanting to know what his bullet run out really is must measure the bullet from the case mouth to as close to the tip as possible.

"Testing" and comparing a collection of individual presses is interesting but pointless. Things vary in production so measuring and comparing single samples of different things is just not how valid statistics are done.

[EDG]

One thing I found was unusual.
He tested 2 different Lee Classic cast presses and they had 2 different sizing force values.
If he sized the same brass in both - the 50 cal press required more force.

[EDG]

One thing I found was unusual.
He tested 2 different Lee Classic cast presses and they had 2 different sizing force values.

[Conditor22]

I've heard good things about the MEC Marksman and for $204.58 shipped from midway------just bought another gun so ----- darn :(

[Taterhead]

That was a good video. Thank you for the link doulos!

It makes me wish that I had spent a little more time with the Summit before selling. I did find it very nice for neck sizing and seating bullets. I much prefer the RC for F/L sizing. The test results seemed to agree.

I bought the Summit for a mobile range setup project that never materialized. I've owned 5 different single stages, and continue to be very happy with my RC Supreme.

[AllanD]

I started out with a Lyman Spar-T turret press I got at a garage sale as part of a bundle that included a MEC 500Jr 12Ga shotshell machine which I actually put to work first after getting to know the Spar-T I came to HATE it with a passion, so when I saw an RCBS starterkit with a RS2 press on sale at my favorite reloading toy emporium I switched and put the spar-T into my scrap bin. Afterwords I realized I could have used it as a de-capping and lubing station, but at the time I really didn't have enough bench space...


I still have the RS-2, but have been thinking about replacing it with a CAST IRON O-frame press, like a Rock Chucker or similar and just the other day that new MEC single stage press caught my eye...


I don't give a Rat's Butt about their lack of Rem-priming I use a Lee press top priming auto prime setup, I'm used to it and have little interest in adjusting myself to something new...

It isn't like I do any "High Volume" reloading on my single stage press, I have a Dillon RL550 I use for my handgun shell reloading, plus I recently bought the conversion plates So I can Do 30Carbine & 223Rem on the Dillon. but I wont use the Dillon for sizing, I'll feed sized prepped & polished cases into it at station #2(Priming)


But I'll still load my precision (Varmint) 223 rounds on the single stage...

[David2011]

Gavin's video review of the Turban was very interesting. It seems to be an example of the proverbial German engineering, something that was done because it could be done. He indicated that the press was extremely smooth. The down sides for me are that it is much more expensive than other presses that will produce equally good ammunition and that I'm not sure I would ever own a rifle that would benefit from the categories where the Turban was best. Two of my single stage presses are a Rock Chucker and a Summit, both of which performed well in Gavin's testing. I'm sure I would enjoy loading on the fully bearing supported Turban but doubt I would shoot better with ammunition produced by it.

[onelight]

What would be the order of importance for long range or bench rest shooters would assign to the different measurements he shows ? I would think priorities might be different if you were making bullets or reforming cases.

[robg]

my wamadet press brings the die to the cartridge .good test but you use what you can afford

[Froogal]

I have the LEE single stage. The price allowed me to get into reloading. I have never used anything else, so I have nothing to compare it to, but the LEE has done everything I wanted it to and has never complained.

[RED BEAR]

I have a lee single stage that i have used for 40+ years a while back i got into everything had to be just so so i rebuilt my lee to better than new no play everything lined up just so . Was very proud and ready for a real improvement in my ammo never happened my ammo was no more accurate than it had been. And its not that it was ever bad . My stuff works as well as my buddies stuff that they load on there fancy dan set ups. It shoots better than i can. And it may sound crazy but a i do use a good amount of ammo the range is only bout 4 miles from home. I finished loading 6000 rounds of 25acp and 32acp a couple weeks ago. I will never get rid of my old lee if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[jmort]

This exactitude will not make a bit of difference except to the egos.
Tubbs used a 550 to crush the competition who had access to many of these presses.
Want the best, based on this test, get a Turban.

[onelight]

This exactitude will not make a bit of difference except to the egos.
Tubbs used a 550 to crush the competition who had access to many of these presses.
Want the best, based on this test, get a Turban.
I have a Turban ego but a Lyman , Lee budget :-P

[rbuck351]

The results page is interesting in that even at $950 the Turban is best in only 3 of the categories. Each of the RCBS holds 2 and several presses are very close to the Turban in several areas for a whole lot less $.
Not being a bench rest shooter or owning rifles in that class I doubt I would benefit by using any press on the list over any other with the exception of force required to size cases.
Nice article and it confirms my belief that most any press is capable of loading very good ammo. The question is , how good of a press do you need for your your type of shooting and loading. I have about a dozen different presses and find they all work good enough for me, even the lowly Lee hand press.

[jmort]

I have a Turban ego but a Lyman , Lee budget :-P

Nice..........

[L Erie Caster]

The results page is interesting in that even at $950 the Turban is best in only 3 of the categories. Each of the RCBS holds 2 and several presses are very close to the Turban in several areas for a whole lot less $.
Not being a bench rest shooter or owning rifles in that class I doubt I would benefit by using any press on the list over any other with the exception of force required to size cases.
Nice article and it confirms my belief that most any press is capable of loading very good ammo. The question is , how good of a press do you need for your your type of shooting and loading. I have about a dozen different presses and find they all work good enough for me, even the lowly Lee hand press.

+1000

[DonMountain]

So, where can I purchase one of these "Turban" really high quality presses, because I really need one for my really precise type of loading and shooting at extensive ranges. With my Moisin Negant and 303 British?

[gwpercle]

I can't figure out who won the test....too complicated for this old dog.
I'll stick with my Pacific Super Deluxe , Eagle Cobra 300 , Lyman All American turret and last but not least my two humble Lee Hand Presses ... We can do it !

[1hole]

Not being a bench rest shooter or owning rifles in that class I doubt I would benefit by using any press on the list over any other ....

I've never heard of any serious bench shooter using a threaded press or threaded dies of any kind to load competition ammo.



Nice article and it confirms my belief that most any press is capable of loading very good ammo.

You believe correctly. Ammo is made in the dies, all any press, does or can do is push cases into and pull them out of the dies. In some 50 years I've seen and used quite a few presses, some new and some "worn out" but I've never seen any press that wouldn't make very good ammo if the dies, cases, bullet, developed charges and user technique were right. In other words, I've learned that if we're getting bad targets buying a more costly press won't improve a thing.

There are no sure or easy paths to precision ammo. A skilled loader will make good ammo on most any press. Some tools are easier to use than others but loading skill is paramount. Skill can't be replaced by a tool and, unlike tools, skill can't be bought at any price.

[onelight]

I read his comparison more as multiple reviews with a few measurements to help one make a more informed decision if shopping for a press.
even the cheapest $40 or $50. press he tested he said loaded ammo that shot into 1/2 at 100 yards and that is more than good enough for a lot of deer hunters or plinkers.He goes from there to $900.00 press for the guy that has to have what may be the very best single stage press.
I thought it was interesting and informative.

[JeepHammer]

I thought that was interesting. But can you really feel the difference?

Feelings? Really? ;)

You can't make 99.99% believe this,
1. Trying to determine force with the human nervous system is the most unreliable things you can do.
Humans simply aren't wired to determine force accurately.

Prove it to yourself, put exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale, blindfolded...
See how close you get.

2. Hold exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale for 30 seconds and see how good you are...
That scale is going to jump up & down like a little girl that gets a kitten, you have no chance!

The biggie of 'Feel' is ergonomics.
Again, 99.99% won't have a bench at the optimum height, or have a chair/stool at the right height.

I'm 'Disabled', I have a shoulder, neck & back that's screwed up...
I took the class on ergonomics & kinesiology, and went home to rebuild my workbenches.

I got a solid, comfortable chair with back & thigh support (no wobbles or leaning!),
And I put the presses in a position where I could pull/push the handles within comfortable range of motion,
Then built a bench design that didn't wobble, and adjusted the top height so the handle was in the normal, comfortable range of motion.

Shoulder, neck & back problems went away, AND the machine *Seemed* to run smoother, much less effort required...
And I was back doing one of my favorite things without pain & suffering.

----------

As for mechanical movement, there is a reason humans invented all sorts of measuring devices,
Because we suck at determining small movements.
It's a predator/pray thing...

[JeepHammer]

As for presses, I've owned a bunch, tested a bunch, even built a few...
(What a waste of time & money...)

From my observations,
A Co-Axial press that PULLS into the dies are quite inherently accurate.

The Pusher presses, which is most types, the issue is ram diameter and the extension of that ram.
A LOT of unsupported ram will deflect (bend) when the pressure is on.
A larger diameter and/or hardened ram would stop a lot of this...

The 'O' ring press frames stretch/flex/deflect less than 'C' frame presses, but everyone should already know that, it's a no-brainer.

Just for the record, the #1 killer of a good press is rust on the ram.
Rust just kills the guide bore tolerances, and it does it really quickly.
Doesn't matter if the frame is aluminum or iron or steel, rust on the ram is an equal opportunity tolerance killer.
It's also 100% preventable with cleaning & lubrication...

[1hole]

I have no idea how a case entering a die knows if it's moving up or the die is moving down, relative only to the user. ???

I'm not a BR shooter but I've been friends with some serious bench shooters. Perhaps the best once told me a lot of them used a slightly modified RCBS alum "Partner" press and a body bump die at the range when they needed to restore the case headspace they desired. The modification was to lathe turn a skim cut to the ram so there would be enough ram looseness to insure cases could drift into perfect self alignment with the die. He pointed out that a tapered round object (case) will always float into a perfectly round and tapered hole (die) unless a too tight ram fit prevents it.

(That bit of info came from the late Meryl "Mike" Walker who was a lead rifle engineer with Remington and ran their custom shop until he retired. Of course Mike may have been wrong about the value of a slightly sloppy ram but he knew enough about rifles, precision reloading and BR shooting to earn his way into the National BR Hall of Fame before he died.)

[David2011]

As I've looked at the chart of measured specs the Lee Classic Cast Iron equals or betters the neck and tip TIR of the Turban and is only slightly behind the Turban for ogive TIR. (How do you get better TIR at both ends than in the middle? Lopsided bullets?) I've read for years that runout was the most important component of accuracy. I only have 3 rifles that I've used for hunting and all will shoot sub MOA groups without measuring runout. Two of the three will shoot under 0.5 MOA at 100 yards. I don't uniform primer pockets or debur flash holes or do any of the more involved procedures that serious accuracy shooters do.

A complete test would include 5 shot groups at 100 and 500 yards from each of the tested presses. I'm betting that more money would not necessarily equal better accuracy.

[country gent]

As stated in the video the 2 presses that the die lowered to the case, had float built in or by design. The concentricity on a fixed die and ram (pusher) press is important. But so is the squareness of the ram and die threads. If one or the other is out of square you get oval or banana shaped rounds.

Most of the benchrest and a few of the long range shooters loaded with Wilson style straight line dies in a small arbor press. A lot of these dies were / are custom made from the chambering reamer. ( some air hardening steels shrink when hardened). Its slower but the alignment and size is almost perfect. I have set the rams up and faced them square for several guys. Sinclair's sells several small light arbor presses for this.

I loaded my Palma 308 in the Wilson dies with a arbor press I made.

To put this in perspective when Jenson had the contract for the issue palma ammo they loaded it on 650s or 550s.

[dverna]

Maybe the press does not matter wrt producing accurate ammunition...depending on how one defines accuracy.

Reminds me of the MOA claims by so many rifle producers...their MOA is for 3 shots....but they don't tell you it may take 5 or six groups to get that...statistical ** stuff. Food for the ignorant masses.

As to presses, I have only ever had one single stage. I used a Lee Target Loader until I go the Co-Ax 45+ years ago. I probably wasted the $68 it cost me way back then but I was a sucker for the marketing of "self aligning dies". Cannot tell you if it (now about $300+) is any better than a $30 Lee (no Lee presses back in the Dark Ages). What I can tell you is it produces ammunition that consistently holds sub MOA 5 shot groups with a capable rifle and shooter. Because of that, I have never yearned for something better. 5 shots under an inch at 100 yards is all I need. (My "wallet group" is .276" with my cheapest rilfe...a T/C Compass .308)

In spite of owning a few Dillon's (two 550's, a 650, three 1050's) capable of loading rifle ammunition, I have never loaded rifle ammunition on one. Might do that this year with one of the 550's for .223. Point being, if the .223's off the 550 are just as good as what the Co-Ax produces, I will conclude I wasted those hard earned $68 when I was a struggling college kid.

Common sense tells me those Benchrest guys think it matters. But my needs are different. If I needed to shoot sub .250", things change.

Good enough is good enough. The other components of accuracy are even more important than the press IMHO. The rifle, and shooter matter. I suspect that with the best ammunition and the best benchrest rifle I would still shoot groups 2-3 times larger than a top benchrest shooter. I am not good enough to tell the difference at that level.

[onelight]

Maybe the press does not matter wrt producing accurate ammunition...depending on how one defines accuracy.

Reminds me of the MOA claims by so many rifle producers...their MOA is for 3 shots....but they don't tell you it may take 5 or six groups to get that...statistical ** stuff. Food for the ignorant masses.

As to presses, I have only ever had one single stage. I used a Lee Target Loader until I go the Co-Ax 45+ years ago. I probably wasted the $68 it cost me way back then but I was a sucker for the marketing of "self aligning dies". Cannot tell you if it (now about $300+) is any better than a $30 Lee (no Lee presses back in the Dark Ages). What I can tell you is it produces ammunition that consistently holds sub MOA 5 shot groups with a capable rifle and shooter. Because of that, I have never yearned for something better. 5 shots under an inch at 100 yards is all I need. (My "wallet group" is .276" with my cheapest rilfe...a T/C Compass .308)

In spite of owning a few Dillon's (two 550's, a 650, three 1050's) capable of loading rifle ammunition, I have never loaded rifle ammunition on one. Might do that this year with one of the 550's for .223. Point being, if the .223's off the 550 are just as good as what the Co-Ax produces, I will conclude I wasted those hard earned $68 when I was a struggling college kid.

Common sense tells me those Benchrest guys think it matters. But my needs are different. If I needed to shoot sub .250", things change.

Good enough is good enough. The other components of accuracy are even more important than the press IMHO. The rifle, and shooter matter. I suspect that with the best ammunition and the best benchrest rifle I would still shoot groups 2-3 times larger than a top benchrest shooter. I am not good enough to tell the difference at that level.
Good post:goodpost:

[rbuck351]

Yep, good enough is good enough and we each have our own ideas what good enough is for our own uses. Some folks need the absolute very best, I don't.

[rcslotcar]

Very well done review. I thought 8 presses was a lot!

[EDG]

If you analyze the clearance between the shell holder and the case head you will find more clearance (slop) than the amount of error between the ram and the die threads. This clearance permits the case head to move as the case taper moves into alignment with the tapered die interior. The result is all that German perfection is a waste of money.
The one area where the author did not test the presses has to do with the co-axial alignment of the die threads along their entire length. The co-axial alignment of the dies insures there is no tilt of the die and that the case heads are not at an angle to the case body. Many die sets have such poorly cut 7/8-14 threads that a perfect press can't correct for the crummy threads and their misalignment.
Another thing that shows the difficulty of a good series of test would be life cycle testing.
A life cycle test might look something like the following:
Determine a standard case to resize or reform. Determine how much force this produces in the press. Then cycle the press until it fails or until it successfully runs the test to completion. A successful completion might be 50,000 cycles in a cheap die cast aluminum press. A heavy cast steel press might last 500,000 cycles. For presses that pass the life cycle test remeasuring the alignment would be in order.
Without objecting testing the rating of an item's quality is subject to the hot stove league's opinions.
A guy who is happy with a press used for 40 years might be misleading. It is possible you are hearing the opinion of a sometime reloader that used his press to load one box of 32 ACP each year for 40 years.
The opposite case might be a guy who used a press only 3 years to reload 5000 rounds of 14.5mmX114mm Russian machine gun ammo. The stress of the press is very different due to the size of the cases. Long life of a press that does only sparing and light duty does not mean much.



Gavin's video review of the Turban was very interesting. It seems to be an example of the proverbial German engineering, something that was done because it could be done. He indicated that the press was extremely smooth. The down sides for me are that it is much more expensive than other presses that will produce equally good ammunition and that I'm not sure I would ever own a rifle that would benefit from the categories where the Turban was best. Two of my single stage presses are a Rock Chucker and a Summit, both of which performed well in Gavin's testing. I'm sure I would enjoy loading on the fully bearing supported Turban but doubt I would shoot better with ammunition produced by it.

[1hole]

A successful completion might be 50,000 cycles in a cheap die cast aluminum press.

Not sure how you derive that number but, accepting you may be correct in general, I wonder ... how many guys who are happy reloaders would you guess will ever assemble that many rounds in their life. The point being, a LOT of reloaders will live quite well with a cheap cast aluminum.

My observation is that a few of us will ever punch out 50K rounds and for them a "cheap press" is entirely sufficent to last a lifetime. For the vast majority of reloaders, spending more for any tool than is needed for the job isn't wisdom, it's a waste. Note that "cheap alum" alloy presses are sold by RCBS, Hornady, Dillon and Lee; the users I know of are happy with all of them.

For those of us who eventually reload vast numbers, how we started doesn't really matter in the long run. I mean, all of the highly active loaders I've ever known have much more than one press on their bench so whatever press they started with seems a moot point. IMHO. ???

[EDG]

The point is who are you kidding if you brag about your press when any old press will do the job?
You may feel good expressing an opinion even though you have only used one press all your life. But feeling good about your press is not an objective measurement. To be objective means measuring and comparing.
You can rationalize all you want but you have not provided objective evidence (data) that proves your point. You have only expressed an opinion.


Not sure how you derive that number but, accepting you may be correct in general, I wonder ... how many guys who are happy reloaders would you guess will ever assemble that many rounds in their life. The point being, a LOT of reloaders will live quite well with a cheap cast aluminum.

My observation is that a few of us will ever punch out 50K rounds and for them a "cheap press" is entirely sufficent to last a lifetime. For the vast majority of reloaders, spending more for any tool than is needed for the job isn't wisdom, it's a waste. Note that "cheap alum" alloy presses are sold by RCBS, Hornady, Dillon and Lee; the users I know of are happy with all of them.

For those of us who eventually reload vast numbers, how we started doesn't really matter in the long run. I mean, all of the highly active loaders I've ever known have much more than one press on their bench so whatever press they started with seems a moot point. IMHO. ???

[onelight]

The measurement that counts is does a tool do what I need it to do.
I have seen several posts from folks that say they have used aluminum presses for decades with no problems I think they are telling the truth.

[EDG]

Sure but that does not mean much because you have not quantified what the press is doing. If you do not quantify a characteristic how can you measure it?

Sure people tell the truth but the truth is their requirements are not known.
Any press might load 38 Special.
Any press might load 1000 rounds.
Not every press can load 50,000 round of 50 BMG.

The whole point of the original article was to provide data that permitted direct comparison of the presses. To say a press is good enough is not very useful when shopping for the best deal for your money.
And again decades means nothing if the press was used very little in 40 years.





The measurement that counts is does a tool do what I need it to do.
I have seen several posts from folks that say they have used aluminum presses for decades with no problems I think they are telling the truth.

[1hole]

The point is who are you kidding if you brag about your press when any old press will do the job?

Not sure if you are speaking hypothetically or to me. I believe ALL of our reloading tool makers (any old press?) make good gear. Not all of it is aimed at the most critical of us nor should it be. Taking an elitist position and looking down on presses that are obviously plenty "good enough" for a very large percentage of us is pointless.


You may feel good expressing an opinion even though you have only used one press all your life. But feeling good about your press is not an objective measurement. To be objective means measuring and comparing.

Being objective about what is good enough for different levels of reloading is what we're discussing. I'm sure you know that casual shooters reloading for their hand guns and deer rifles can have a lot of fun and wouldn't gain a thing - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - by meeting your more "objective" standards. You know it so why be so condescending about what's barely "good enough" for others for because they don't want or need what you like?


You can rationalize all you want but you have not provided objective evidence (data) that proves your point. You have only expressed an opinion.

You are quite correct ... but, as Mr. Onelight (#42) observes, my point IS an objective opinion that requires logic, not arcane measurements.

I've lived with the idea that the only measurement that really matters is the groups on target, not the press.

Assuming the same care in assembly, have you actually found measurably better accuracy on target with your more precise press; I mean how much smaller are the average groups with ammo from your best press than your second best? Or even from your third best? And, if your best is really better, would you objectively tell us in inches how much better your best press does its job?

[David2011]

Note that "cheap alum" alloy presses are sold by RCBS, Hornady, Dillon and Lee; the users I know of are happy with all of them.


There are cheap aluminum presses and there are good ones. Being made of an aluminum alloy alone doesn't define the quality of a press. You lumped Dillon and Lee in the same sentence. I'm calling that a party foul! :kidding:

[1hole]

Okay, okay, I knew it would probably come so ... I'll consider my rusty chain to be well pulled. :)

BUT, the alloy Lee uses isn't the same stuff as the others use.

[doulos]

Feelings? Really? ;)

You can't make 99.99% believe this,
1. Trying to determine force with the human nervous system is the most unreliable things you can do.
Humans simply aren't wired to determine force accurately.

Prove it to yourself, put exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale, blindfolded...
See how close you get.

2. Hold exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale for 30 seconds and see how good you are...
That scale is going to jump up & down like a little girl that gets a kitten, you have no chance!

The biggie of 'Feel' is ergonomics.
Again, 99.99% won't have a bench at the optimum height, or have a chair/stool at the right height.

I'm 'Disabled', I have a shoulder, neck & back that's screwed up...
I took the class on ergonomics & kinesiology, and went home to rebuild my workbenches.

I got a solid, comfortable chair with back & thigh support (no wobbles or leaning!),
And I put the presses in a position where I could pull/push the handles within comfortable range of motion,
Then built a bench design that didn't wobble, and adjusted the top height so the handle was in the normal, comfortable range of motion.

Shoulder, neck & back problems went away, AND the machine *Seemed* to run smoother, much less effort required...
And I was back doing one of my favorite things without pain & suffering.

----------

As for mechanical movement, there is a reason humans invented all sorts of measuring devices,
Because we suck at determining small movements.
It's a predator/pray thing...
I dont think you read my whole post about the feel of a press. I said the handle location of my Rockchucker is probably the determining factor for how it FEELS. And I agree wholeheartedly that ergonomics and press height contribute more than we all realize to perceived force needed.

[country gent]

Ergonomics is a big part of any equipment used. Handles that fit the hand controls and adjustment in easy reach. A lot of thought and testing go into this when working up a new item. A Having to reach stretch for the machine is tiring and becomes uncomfortable. An example is a coax or Summit press on a bench that's comfortable to use then mount a rock chucker lee or other press with the lower handle mount and it may become an issue due to the difference in handle location. Another is how colors affect this. One reason a lot of machine equipment is grey is its easy on the eyes to look at all day.

A machine you sit in front of for hours working little things can make a big difference

[EDG]

I would bet that Lee uses exactly the same aluminum alloy that is the industry standard for high strength die castings.
It is A380 and it is about all that anyone uses and has been since the first time I used it about 1980.


Okay, okay, I knew it would probably come so ... I'll consider my rusty chain to be well pulled. :)

BUT, the alloy Lee uses isn't the same stuff as the others use.

[john.k]

Surprising how much difference in applied force .........but its not a factor for me,if I wanted a feather touch operation,I would get a press with a ball bushing on the ram and needle rollers in every bearing...............or maybe I would just install a small hydraulic cylinder,and need no manual effort at all.

[EDG]

With most control valves for hydraulic cylinders there is no feed back to the operator to judge the force applied. So you have no idea when you are jamming a case into the die that has insufficient case lube.
Instead of stopping and pulling the case out for more lube you will just wind up with a stuck case that will pull off the rim. If the case lubing process is well controlled then you might be able to use hydraulic pressure without issue. I have seen some operators use a 650 Dillion with spray case lube and 2 FL .223 dies.
The first FL die is set shallow like a partial sizing operation. The second die is set full depth to set the shoulder to give proper head space. Those setups will FL size a large pile of cases in just a minute or 2.


Surprising how much difference in applied force .........but its not a factor for me,if I wanted a feather touch operation,I would get a press with a ball bushing on the ram and needle rollers in every bearing...............or maybe I would just install a small hydraulic cylinder,and need no manual effort at all.

[EDG]

Subjective refers to personal perspectives, feelings, or opinions entering the decision making process. Objective refers to the elimination of subjective perspectives and a process that is purely based on hard facts.

You are arguing in circles. If the presses are good enough just because you say so - prove it. You cannot prove it without data. Most people's opinions are worth what they cost.

Your way of arguing for judgment means we or they could skip any kind of competition, game or race because in your opinion and judgement you know whose team or car is good enough. But what is good enough?
There is not much more worthless opinions that a bunch of old wind bags sitting around a hot stove expounding on things they have never done. Just like the pope giving an opinion on sex....
So what if some people cannot and don't care enough to discriminate so they can chose one over the other. Is that how you think you would buy everything.
Many people cannot tell one car from another and persist buying mediocre junk.
Some people spend weeks analyzing different cars because it is important to them to get the best deal for their money. If you don't care that is fine but you cannot speak for those that do care.
Some shooters can make good choices based on data and for those that can it is important.
To some extent you have to remember one of the main concepts of management.
You cannot manage people, money, businesses or processes unless you can measure them. To measure them means you need data.

If you choose to live the mediocre life then you have little need to tell the big number from the little number. You will not need to make any decision - you can just buy the first thing on the web page or first thing you see on the shelf. But remember most people do have preferences and choices. I suspect you do too. Does that mean you are also an elitist and will not admit it?

You asked the question about what is the impact on accuracy based on the accuracy of the press manufacturing. jajajaja Well the answer is YOU DON'T KNOW and I don't know because neither one of us have ran exhausting tests and collected data on it. However you are assuming it makes a difference and you cannot prove that it makes any difference or NOT without any data. That is why you asked a question that you cannot answer. The answer can be partially determined by analysis. That is the slop between the case heads and most shell holders is greater than the manufactured misalignment of the press. Therefore the cases can move into alignment without interference from the shell holder lips. But guess what that little bit of analysis took data - yeah more numbers. Sure there are hand loaders that don't really care but some really do. And you cannot speak for every one.
The real data needed is the force generated by the rams based on a standard input force to judge the mechanical advantage and the presses need life cycle testing. There again some of your bubba loaders will not know enough to care.
Some will want the best mechanical advantage and longest lived press for the money. Don't you?







Not sure if you are speaking hypothetically or to me. I believe ALL of our reloading tool makers (any old press?) make good gear. Not all of it is aimed at the most critical of us nor should it be. Taking an elitist position and looking down on presses that are obviously plenty "good enough" for a very large percentage of us is pointless.



Being objective about what is good enough for different levels of reloading is what we're discussing. I'm sure you know that casual shooters reloading for their hand guns and deer rifles can have a lot of fun and wouldn't gain a thing - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - by meeting your more "objective" standards. You know it so why be so condescending about what's barely "good enough" for others for because they don't want or need what you like?



You are quite correct ... but, as Mr. Onelight (#42) observes, my point IS an objective opinion that requires logic, not arcane measurements.

I've lived with the idea that the only measurement that really matters is the groups on target, not the press.

Assuming the same care in assembly, have you actually found measurably better accuracy on target with your more precise press; I mean how much smaller are the average groups with ammo from your best press than your second best? Or even from your third best? And, if your best is really better, would you objectively tell us in inches how much better your best press does its job?

[elmacgyver0]

I would love to have a fancy high dollar Dillion press, no experience with them, but bet they are great.
Problem is I already have 3 Lee progressives. One I got for Christmas many years ago.
The other two I got in a box from a LGS for 20 dollars for both. The Lees work fine for me and you can't beat the price.

[Willbird]

For what it's worth, bullet tilt measurements "at the ogive" are meaningless. I assume he means at the bore diameter but bullet ogive is the entire forward surface from full body diameter to meplat. Anyone wanting to know what his bullet run out really is must measure the bullet from the case mouth to as close to the tip as possible.

"Testing" and comparing a collection of individual presses is interesting but pointless. Things vary in production so measuring and comparing single samples of different things is just not how valid statistics are done.

I would presume his tool measured to a datum line on the Ogive, and saying that just gets the point across that he was not measuring to the tip of the bullet. Here is his sketch as to where he measured it, he used .200 and .600 from the case mouth, pretty easy to hit that spot every time if your much of a lathe hand :-).

http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Cartridge-measurement-datum-points-2000.jpg

There is a science to picking the samples at random from a group of concurrent parts...how many parts depends on level of precision. Also a measuring instrument should resolve to 10% of your tolerance.

And the TIR setup and lathe spindle should be tested with a tapered pin to actually see what numbers you get after loading and unloading a "perfect" part. I did a lot of ID and OD grinding that required TIR of a few .0001" and every machine was an individual...some gave you wonky numbers turning the work head (a sort of spindle that rotates the part on a grinder) by hand but WOULD give honest number being spun under power.

http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Cartridge-measurement-datum-points-2000.jpg

I do not see that he ever measured ram to die ALIGNMENT, IMHO without that number the "slop" value is not as relevant. I operate with the notion that nothing is ever 0 to the tenth decimal place, so if we have .0019" mis alignment between die and ram, and .005" slop that slop may be GOOD rather than bad again IMHO. Then there is parallelism between the die and ram, and squareness of the shell holder to the ram axis of movement. None of those will every truly be "0". The mfg has a tolerance on all of those features.

We start to devolve into how to define position ...there is a system we use called GDT, Geometric Design and Tolerance that helps define whether parts will function as made.

Then there is some random with the sample size of 5 for each press too. Quite possible that a sample size of 5 concurrent parts will not give us enough data to make a truly accurate judgement. Kind of like shooting one 5 shot group and calling the work "done" because we got a .340" group at 100 yards :-).

His whole mounting system was flexing all over the place in some video too...so that will screw with data too probably.

Bill

[country gent]

Also on machines numbers may change from cold start up to at operating temperatures. As lube pressures are different and flows of lubes different. Temps may change tolerance's on the spindle and machine slightly. What a press is lubed with how often and such will have an affect. A light oil on the ram will allow more float or play than a super thick grease will. A true test would be sizing 100 or more cases and a sample pulled from start middle and end of the batch this would show cold warmed up and thinned lubes. In industry samples are pulled and measured or gaged every hour or so on the lines. Some of these samples are measured and tested for quality in some cases a small portion is subjected to "destructive" testing basically ran until it fails to meet specs.
In the case of reloading presses running a press to out of spec testing would be a long slow process with a tech providing the recommended lubing and such. Most press will out last a couple owners. ( My buddies rock chucker is on its 3rd known operator).

[georgerkahn]

Most all my purchases are made as an algebraic sum of the pluses and minuses of function, cost, and usability/ease of use for me. I had RCBS, Herter, Lyman, and Pacific single stage presses through the years -- all functioning OK for my needs. THEN, I got into/started loading for .25ACP, .32Auto, and .380 -- and one of these calibers' loading caused quite a bit of blood, and a scar I still bear on my left forefinger. At a sportsman's expo a few months after I lowered seating die on my finger, I saw, and tried, a Redding BOSS -- the lowest-pried one. Since, I've purchased and use two of these: I can both see what I'm doing, and, the way it is designed, can do it quite easily and safely! The amount of flex, alignment, etc. became a second order variable.
Perhaps my choice basis are not for total precision, as much as for total enjoyment of the hobby.
geo

[onelight]

EDG I would love my brain surgeon or pilot of the plane I’m on have your attention to detail.
It’s great to have a place I can find people with the brains , money , tools and time to help me figure out an answer to a problem but for the most part I roll along getting the most “bang “for my buck and having a good safe time , for me the problems are trigger pull and sight picture.

[fast ronnie]

Concerning press leverage, I have two original Rock Chuckers and one Rock Chucker 2. The originals had a bicycle type grip, the model 2 had a ball type grip. The bicycle type was always hard on the palm of my hand, sometimes leaving blisters depending on how much I pulled that handle during a given session. The one with the ball handle is much more comfortable as it rotates in the palm and spreads the load over a greater area. There was enough difference that I got ball type handles for the older two presses. I am not comparing two different manufacturers, but a difference in ergonomics. The ball handles have much less PERCEIVED load.
Ergonomics can make a huge difference in the perception of how something works. I also have a SDB2. It also has a ball handle. I don't think I would like it very much if it had that old bicycle type grip. I am a tool and die maker by trade, so I certainly appreciate precision, but the ergonomics are also a big factor in satisfaction with a given product. Point is, use what it appropriate for your own use, and what is comfortable for you as an individual.

[JeepHammer]

I have no idea how a case entering a die knows if it's moving up or the die is moving down, relative only to the user. ???

If you are serious, it's the deflection of the ram, more or less moving sideways (bending) instead of applying CONSISTENT pressure force to the brass.
A larger diameter ram wouldn't deflect as much giving more consistent pressures.

A 'Puller' press uses two arms, located both sides of the case, don't stretch as much as the single small diameter ram deflects, so the pressure applied is more consistent.

Agreed, 99.99% of reloaders wouldn't notice the difference.
That 0.01% with the correct measuring equipment and want as consistent of brass that is humanly possible (and I don't mean possible in a unicorn or lawyer way) the puller/coaxial presses would do a better job.

As the case hits the die walls, the unsupported guides are VERY short, so no side to side movement,
And steel stretches more reliably/consistently than it pushes up unsupported.
Keeping in mind the ram is mostly unsupported by the time the brass hits die walls with a pusher.

When the tolerance in my pusher 'O' ring got sloppy, I bored the frame larger to clean it up and made a larger diameter ram, and hardened it, instead of bushing the frame and installing a factory ram.
The press got a slight bit more consistant, even from when it was new.
The principal is a no-brainer, but the materials & time involved quadrupled the investment in that single press, time being money in a machine shop...
Large scale from a manufacturer would drive that cost way down.

[JeepHammer]

Ergonomics is a big part of any equipment used. Handles that fit the hand controls and adjustment in easy reach. A lot of thought and testing go into this when working up a new item. A Having to reach stretch for the machine is tiring and becomes uncomfortable. An example is a coax or Summit press on a bench that's comfortable to use then mount a rock chucker lee or other press with the lower handle mount and it may become an issue due to the difference in handle location. Another is how colors affect this. One reason a lot of machine equipment is grey is its easy on the eyes to look at all day.

A machine you sit in front of for hours working little things can make a big difference

Even the spectrum of light makes a big difference!
'Harsh', 'Glaring' light will kill you quick.

People talk about light being 'Warm' or 'Inviting',
I use cheap lights that are really bright, but I also slip cheap tint 'Gels' over them when I don't need the bright 'Glaring' light.

I need the bright for set up checks, but when I sit down to run 10,000 brass, the gels go on (loop & staple).
I don't have the lights burned into my eyes at the end of the run.

With a pump handle press, ball never above shoulder, feet flat on the floor, no wobbling or walking benches...
If you have to bend at all when the handle goes down, the press is too low (or your butt is too high).

[EDG]

Most of us spend too much time slobbering over details and not enough shooting.
There is an old saying in engineering

In theory, practice and theory are the same.
In practice they are different.



EDG I would love my brain surgeon or pilot of the plane I’m on have your attention to detail.
It’s great to have a place I can find people with the brains , money , tools and time to help me figure out an answer to a problem but for the most part I roll along getting the most “bang “for my buck and having a good safe time , for me the problems are trigger pull and sight picture.