Pedersoli Sharps .45-70 alloy hardness for smokeless powder.

[Fisher]

Hallo Guys, Its been quite a while since posting here because I had all my ducks in a row, until I bought a new gun...
(Its been a long time since I’ve been here, for the older members wondering where I come from here is an old post - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?210778-Took-a-Giraffe-with-the-44 )

I bought a new Pedersoli Billy Dixon 32” Sharps a month or so ago that spend some time in a warehouse, it was made in 2016, And if I convert our currency to $ the price roughly worked out to $1400, so in my eyes I would have been a fool not to take it...

I had some RCBS 400gr GC flat point water quenched WW boolits on hand, sized them to .459” lubed with LBT soft blue lube and loded them on a node using QuickLoad and MagnetoSpeed at 1700fps using a local fast burning rifle powder. After sorting out the sights on the shooting range, I managed to hit a 12”x12” plate 3 consecutive times on 600 yards.
After about 70-80 shots with this ammo I did not notice any leading in the barrel.

I ordered a “Propper” mold for the rifle, the layman 535 Postel (which is a plain base boolit), and some Lee Shaver sights. The plan is shooting that same 12”x12” steel plates between 500 and a 1000 yards. According to QuickLoad I should push them at around 1600fps to be on the node, pressures running between 24500 and 27500psi depending on what powder being used.

NOW THE QUESTION IS:

Out of what alloy should I cast the Postel driven by smoleless powder @ 1600fps, if the guys use 20:1-30:1 lead:tin alloy when using Blackpowder @ 1100-1300fps

I do have clip on wheel weights, and some of the more pure lead stick on wheel weights.
I would be able to get my hands on tin if needed.

Thanks for all the help in advance, you guys have an excellent track record when it comes to sorting out my boolits.

Ferdi

[EDG]

Forget that high velocity.
Load your ammo to 1100 to 1300 fps.
Use 4227 or 5744 or asimilar powder.
Brinell 10 at 20 to 1 will work fine.

[Leadmad]

Forget that high velocity.
Load your ammo to 1100 to 1300 fps.
Use 4227 or 5744 or asimilar powder.
Brinell 10 at 20 to 1 will work fine.

Same for me too

[Butler Ford]

I dug out the LEE reloading manual (a lot if information about pressure not found in other manuals) and with that bullet, I can't find any powder AND THAT VELOCITY that isn't going to exceed pressure limits of that rifle. I have been wrong before so keep looking.

BF

[Terrence Clarke]

I use a different cast bullet with smokeless, RCBS 45-500 bps and wheel weight hardness works for me- 44 grains Varget -1475 fps

[rfd]

i'd start with 20:1 and see if 30:1 works well, too. a 30:1 lyman postell and aa5744 was a winning greaser load for me when i was stubborn about not going black, but i was sooooo wrong and black is by far THE best (at least for me). use a good lube and NO wads or fillers.

sr4759 was the powder of choice for quite some time with those who took up that white devil dust powder over the holy black. that powder has been discontinued, but aa5744 is just as good if not better, is made for the old 19th century cartridges, and is not position sensitive in the case.

[Edward]

i'd start with 20:1 and see if 30:1 works well, too. a 30:1 lyman postell and aa5744 was a winning greaser load for me when i was stubborn about not going black, but i was sooooo wrong and black is by far THE best (at least for me). use a good lube and NO wads or fillers.

sr4759 was the powder of choice for quite some time with those who took up that white devil dust powder over the holy black. that powder has been discontinued, but aa5744 is just as good if not better, is made for the old 19th century cartridges, and is not position sensitive in the case.

2nd what Rob said it"s working for me to 700 yd (range limit) Ed

[country gent]

I cast the lyman 535 postel and a Old West 550 grn postel style from 20-1 lead tin. Shoot as cast pan lubed with emmerts improved or SPG. No gas checks. My loads (BP) are in the 1190-1230 fps range, Actual extreme spread is around 12 fps. This load will ring all 10 rams at 500 yds. Look at what the bPCR shooters are doing and loading velocity wise. The lower velocity may take a little more elevation on the rear sight. but better accuracy and no transitions to worry about. The other plus is the lower velocity will be less recoil allowing you to preform better longer.

[knifemaker]

The pressure limits, in order not to void the warranty, is 29,000 for the Pedersoli. I received that information from the Pedersoli factory spokesman that was in charge of their shooting program. They tested their rifle to 80,000 where it sprung the breech block just 3 thousands. The Pedersoli 1874 Sharps is a forged frame and the side walls are 50 thousands thicker then a poplar American made Sharps rifle.
I used 43 gr. of IMR-4198 with a 350 gr. cast Ranch Dog boolit for a velocity of around 1850 fps as my hunting load in my 1874 Pedisoli that is just under the 29,000 pressure limit. Hodgdon load data web site also lists the pressure for their powder load data.

[Ozark mike]

Hmm those loads will be just as accurate with a full case of black as any just more arc. It's amazing how accurate black can be I've seen enough folks who got bad performance from a partial case of smokeless but when switching to black got outstanding results

[Fisher]

Thank you guys for all the excellent replies, you all gave very high quality responses, I wish that I could reply to each and every one of you, unfortunately that is not very practical...

From all my research I have done I found that all the guys say the same thing: that eventually the best results are to be had with black powder, which I personally don’t have a problem with, I love using black. The problem is in South Africa at the moment, we don’t have a cartridge grade black powder available. There is a powder called Obadex which is in very high regard with the long range muzzleloader movement which compares it to the 2 best blackpowders in the world , Wano and Swiss, the problem is although it is by weight (2F) very potent, by volume it is unfortunately not. I loaded 70gr per volume, which by weight was only something like 42grain, loaded the 400gr RCBS on top, and If I recall correctly, it gave around 1070fps. At 80grain volume (50-51 actual weight) it sped up to about 1350fps, but that filled the case completely, I compressed the powder load to the seating depth with only firm finger pressure, I did that out of pure ignorance, I don’t know how good or bad thing that is to do?? What botherd me also was the crude fouling that I could see laying on the bottom of the barrel (@6’o clock) after dropping the breach block and blowing out the smoke? How normal is that?

The other real black powder we can get is the ZAR brand that I use in muzzleloader cannons (1F), I tried the 2F, which the manufacturer say we should load by weight, and 70 grains overrun the case quite a bit. It is not a potent powder by weight nor volume, which makes it even more difficult to use in the .4570...

This is exactly why I thought it better to stick to smokeless and my reason for posting in the Singleshot section and not the BPCR section.

Please forgive my ignorance....

Ferdi

[Ozark mike]

First off always compress black if not then you could be digging barrel out of your face because it can detonate. Use a full case or use filler like cream of wheat. Then you need to use a non petroleum oil like lard Crisco or veggie oil used with bees wax to stiffen(my mix is 50/50 wax-crisco mix melted together on the wood stove in a small pot but don't over heat) and use either a big lube bullet or a grease cookie to keep fouling soft. As far a powder availability read the homemade black powder thread it's about 130 pages long but good stuff. And it's a lot cheaper than smokeless but I do have to confess to using smokeless in my modern guns because of the big critters but that's another subject

[Ozark mike]

Oh one other thing bp is loaded by volume different powders from different manufacturers will weigh differently by just a little 2f or 3f is what you want. And the fouling is normal just clean good after shooting to prevent it from absorbing moisture 1350 fps is about right for a full case

[40-82 hiker]

aa5744 for all of my BP cartridge rifles, with 20:1 I would suggest you give it a try, with BP velocities. I used a chrono at the range a few years ago (offered to use one by a stranger), and my TD with a 400 gr. boolit, with 5744 was 1240fps. That was just one shot however, as having never used a chronograph before, and not owning the contraption, I was worried I might shoot his screens. [smilie=l:

Seriously though, and more to the point, I agree with all concerning 20:1 or 30:1.

[Fisher]

I use a different cast bullet with smokeless, RCBS 45-500 bps and wheel weight hardness works for me- 44 grains Varget -1475 fps



Terrence, Quenched, or air cooled?

[marlinman93]

No problem shooting your Pedersoli with smokeless, but pushing the velocity up to the levels you chose seems unnecessary and not sure it will produce accurate groups either. I'd stick with velocities down around 1350-1400 fps, and I think you'll find the groups are better. That's where I load mine at and they shoot well.
I also have experimented with 15:1, 20:1 and 30:1 and not noticed any leading. More important to avoiding leading is bullet size for your groove diameter than alloy. If the bullet isn't too small or too large, then the right size shouldn't lead a great bore.

[waksupi]

If you keep your velocity under 1250 FPS, you can avoid the transonic inaccuracies at midrange, usually around 700-750 yards. Trajectory may not be as flat, but those mid range targets can put you in the money at a competition.
Air cooled wheel weights work fine for me.

[kokomokid]

You could paper patch and run a soft alloy maybe bullet bore size +.001 and patched to groove +.001 for your smokeless. In my 30-06 I run WW plus 2% tin at about 1700 fps for a GG bullet but that may not work in a 45.

[KCSO]

Try try try ...see what your gun shoots best. Mix your alloys and keep notes. The target tells the tale. In my 40-65 I am working on now I have currently 4 different alloys cast up and will test each for grouping before I settle on a load. Then I will mix up 100 pounds of that alloy and use it exclusively in that rifle for target work. I can't help with smokless as I just don't use it in my BPCR.

[curator]

Something I have found shooting the .45-70 cartridge with both black powder and smokeless powder: Black powder loads nearly always shoot best with lead/tin alloy (BHN 8-10) at or over groove diameter by .001"-002". Smokeless powder loads seem to prefer Air cooled wheel weight alloy plus 2% in (BHN 12-15) at .002 or even .004" over groove diameter. Smokeless powder appears to burn much hotter and even if pressures are similar. is more prone to leading. Fillers like Cream O wheat and Plastic shot buffer can help with this when shooting softer alloys but shooting smokeless powder loads accurately requires attention to preventing any gas blow-by.

[Hamish]

Something I have found shooting the .45-70 cartridge with both black powder and smokeless powder: Black powder loads nearly always shoot best with lead/tin alloy (BHN 8-10) at or over groove diameter by .001"-002". Smokeless powder loads seem to prefer Air cooled wheel weight alloy plus 2% in (BHN 12-15) at .002 or even .004" over groove diameter. Smokeless powder appears to burn much hotter and even if pressures are similar. is more prone to leading. Fillers like Cream O wheat and Plastic shot buffer can help with this when shooting softer alloys but shooting smokeless powder loads accurately requires attention to preventing any gas blow-by.

I am going to assume (yes, I know,,,,) that you implicitly mean plain base bullets, owing to the relative ease of shooting cast with a gas check when it comes to leading at moderate velocities, yes? Sometimes it's aggravating dealing with them, but boy, it sure makes things easier sometimes.

[Hamish]

If you keep your velocity under 1250 FPS, you can avoid the transonic inaccuracies at midrange, usually around 700-750 yards. Trajectory may not be as flat, but those mid range targets can put you in the money at a competition.
Air cooled wheel weights work fine for me.

I guess I'm getting old, anything in the 45 2.1 that has the mass for long distance, I don't want to shoot more than one or two if they're going fast enough to go transonic,,,,,.

[samari46]

For my Ruger #1 in 45/70 just plain wheel weights with 2% tin added is fine. Estimated velocity is about 1350-1400 FPS. Bullet is the 486 grain semi round nose 45 rifle bullet with gas check. Slugged the barrel and it's .459 and my mold only comes out at .459. Have a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps infantry rifle also in 45/70 but haven't shot it yet. Probably get an accurate mold at or near 500 grains w/gas check about .463 in diameter and maybe the same for the sharps. The Ruger wants to shoot but with an oversized bore a fatter bullet is needed. Frank

[Ozark mike]

In my bfr and 1895 a heavy dose of h322 and a ww pb 500rnfp (which will knock the socks off of most unless you can handle a 500sw mag with one hand) produces no leading at all but Im also at .001+ overbore. So if you're worried about leading w bp use a grease cookie

[Larry Gibson]

Fisher

If you want to push that Postel bullet 1500 - 1600 fps with smokeless powder and stay within 29,000 psi I suggest Lyman #2 alloy, a 93/3/3 alloy or at the very least a 16-1 alloy. I also suggest you try a smokeless powder such as 4895 or similar if available.

[Fisher]

Fisher

If you want to push that Postel bullet 1500 - 1600 fps with smokeless powder and stay within 29,000 psi I suggest Lyman #2 alloy, a 93/3/3 alloy or at the very least a 16-1 alloy. I also suggest you try a smokeless powder such as 4895 or similar if available.

Thanks for the reply Larry, but just to clear things up for me, is that 93/3/3 parts? If it is in percentage, where do I add the 1% that is short?(I suppose to the lead)