Is it safe to use 125gr load data for 124 gr lead cast?

[Nano]

So I'm having troubles finding proper load data. I cast my own bullets from a 2 cavity .356 124gr round nose mold from Lee. They came out just fine, I dropped them immediately in water cuz some light research says that's helpful. The lead content is... unknown. I bought about 10 ingots from my local shop. Some were labeled WW which I assume are wheel weights. And some were labeled 60/40. Either way this was just a proof of concept for plinking ammo. I'm using Titegroup and I'm using the load data that came with the Lee dies as the data on the powder has 115gr and I can't seem to narrow down two consistent sources. I just kinda started with 3.6 as that was what the Lee insert said was for a 125gr Lead Cast bullet. Is this safe? What should I adjust? I also have die questions but those are for a different place on the forum I'd assume. :P

[Madoktor1]

You probably have the same Lee mold I have. It sounds like it anyways. I use the 124gr data with no issues.

It is generally accepted and safe practice to use the next higher weight data for a bullet weight that doesn’t have data. But, that is usually for more of a weight difference than 1 gr.


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[nicholst55]

First, it's extremely unlikely that your cast bullets actually weight 124 grains. That is the nominal weight, and only attainable if you're using the exact alloy that the manufacturer did. You need to weigh your bullets with your reloading scale, and go from there. Unless they're way, way off (more than just a few grains), I would start with the minimum load for a 124 grain bullet listed in your reloading manual, and go from there.

The ingots marked 60/40 are most likely plumbing solder - or at least were cast in an ingot mold for same, 60% lead, 40% tin, and a horrible waste to just toss into your lead pot willy-nilly. They should be reserved to 'sweeten' softer alloys with their high tin content.

[bmortell]

how far the base goes in the case and reduces capacity will change things more than small weight difference

[Nano]

So I weighed the bullet and it weighed 121gr. And when you say start with minimum load for a 124gr. I have a modern reloading second edition book and the closest data I could find to what I need is 124gr copper plated and it lists titegroup as 3.6 start grains and and max OAL of 1.150. Is this still acceptable? As for the waste of lead, honestly it's fine. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, right? Or something like that lol.

[BigAlofPa.]

Start at 3.6 and work up from there.

[bmortell]

I dont even know if making bullets out of 40% tin is a good idea besides wasting expensive tin. People normally use like 2% multiplying that by 20 will change density and hardness quite a bit, id definitly save it for mixing small amounts into other lead. You can calculate how much weight for weight gives what % tin, or theres probably a calculator somewhere on internet for adding it specifically. Any more than 5% tin in lead is kind of wastefull. Putting a bit in the ww alloy you got would be good

If my headmath is good id mix 1part 60/40 to between 10-20 parts ww for the normal good range of tin

[Minerat]

In Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4, 3.6gr of Titegroup is the max load for a 38 special I'd back off 10% and work up. Starting load is 2.6. If you are shooting in a 357 mag you're probably ok. I use the closest load data for the weight that is closest and start 10% low from start load and work up. So 2.6*0.1=0.26 start 2.3 gr.

[Outpost75]

PAY ATTENTION TO SEATING DEPTH!

Do not seat shorter than the cartridge OAL cited in your published, pressure tested data source.

If your chosen bullet does not plunk test at the suggested OAL, reduce the charge@!

[tazman]

The op is talking about 9mm, I believe.
Try using the Hodgdon data site. They have data for nearly all their powders and cartridge combinations.
Here is the link
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Minerat]

Thanks tazman, mine was WAG since no caliber was listed. That load weight is in the mid range for both bullet weights in Lyman #4 for a 9mm.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Without getting into the details of your particular caliber, as a general rule I feel comfortable using the powder charge from a heavier bullet while actually loading a lighter bullet. As long as you stick with the cardinal rule of "start low and work up your powder charge" small substitutions can be safe. Once you've achieved max charge you need drop down every time you change a parameter. So if I work up to max with the WW alloy I would drop down for the 60/40 and work up again.

A chronograph is your friend. As you go up the ladder you should see even gains in velocity.

[jsizemore]

As for the waste of lead, honestly it's fine. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, right? Or something like that lol.

Messing up with an egg is easy to clean up. Not so easy with tin plated to your bore.

Use lead bullet data with lead bullets.

[bedbugbilly]

Already suggested but one of the best investments you'll ever make is to purchase a copy of the Lymnn Cast Bullet Handbook. There have been 4 different editions - I have all four but #3 and #4 re my "go to" books for cast bullet load data. Plus, the handbooks are also filled with lots of good information bout casting, reloading, etc..

Welcome to the forum - you'll find lots of good folks here, good information and a good place to ask questions . . . just remember . . . "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask". :-) Good luck with your casting, loading and shooting and be safe!

[Conditor22]

Nano, Welcome to Cast Boolits

It's always safe to use load data from a heavier boolit (boolit = lead bullet :)) for a lighter boolit [for the same firearm caliber]

here Is a good resource for load data

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

and You can download (for free) layman cast #3 here
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AElJK0B10qTCJGA&cid=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9&id=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21258&parId=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21238&o=OneUp

plus a lot of other great (free) resources here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

PM sent

[Winger Ed.]

The Lee data is good and won't get you in trouble, or hurt.

But as this addiction takes hold, you'll be wanting to get at least a few loading manuals.
You can lay them out on a table and peruse over them like a General does their battlefield maps.

[Conditor22]

Nano, Welcome to Cast Boolits

The answer is YES
It's always safe to use load data from a heavier boolit (boolit = lead bullet :)) for a lighter boolit [for the same firearm/caliber]

here Is a good resource for load data

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

and You can download (for free) layman cast #3 here
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AElJK0B10qTCJGA&cid=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9&id=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21258&parId=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21238&o=OneUp

plus a lot of other great (free) resources here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

Lyman cast #4
https://i.imgur.com/3fZkWov.jpg

PM sent

[Nano]

Oh jeez, this is a lot of info, let me run through this a bit and see what I can clear up lol. Lets address some things first off.

The whole "break a few eggs to make an omelette" was strictly my way of saying I don't mind wasting lead, it's fine. I can start over if needed. I bought 10 total ingots for like 10 bucks or something. I don't mind taking that loss.

Books: I only have the one. It's Modern Reloading Second edition and it says Revised 2017. It came with my turret press kit. Obviously I will be looking into diversifying materials.

The caliber I'm working with is a 9mm Luger. The firearm is a Ruger Lc9s. The powder I have on hand right now is Titegroup. That's all for now.

Seating depth: I did of course purchase a caliper. And the data from Hodgdon the closest 124gr data is data for a 124gr BERB HBRN TP. The 125gr data from the same site lists a 125LCN @ 3.6gr starting load for a COL of 1.125. The paper insert that came with my Lee 9mm Deluxe Pistol Die set has data for the 12gr lead cast but my powder isn't listed so I figured I'd ask instead. It has 125gr data though which has 125gr data the same as Hodgdon's site. So I kinda sorta followed that. I seen someone mention a plunk test. What exactly is this? I currently have a round loaded and it's a 121 ish gr Lead Cast with 3.6gr and it measures to be 1.125. I probably will NOT fire this without getting my information 100% correct. I'd rather be educated than getting injured. This is why I'm seeking all the information I can. :) I want this to be a safe and enjoyable hobby.

I'll ask the owner of that shop who their source was if they could provide me any tips. All of my reloading is being done with a Lee classic turret press kit. The die set is a Lee Deluxe pistol carbide set. It's a recent purchase, this year. So if there were any revisions, it's the latest one I believe. I see a lot of suggestions about picking up the Lyman cast bullet handbook #4. You'll be happy to know it's currently being ordered.

I realllly appreciate all the help, don't worry. None of these rounds will be fired until I have all the information required to make this safe. If I missed anything extra, let me know and I'll go back and take a look!

Slight edit to this post. I've purchased the suggested lyman #4 manual. Thank you. :)

[jcren]

If you look at the top right of the screen, you will see a search tab that is priceless. Type in "plunk test" and prepare to be amazed. Basically, field strip your gun and use the barrel as a cartridge gauge. Drop in a loaded round and if it "plunks" and dumps back out freely, your oal is good. Btw, i saw a thread on the lc9s recently, might use the search for it and see if there is any helpful data.

[Minerat]

Nano, In my first post I was so discourteous as to not welcome you to Cast Boolits so Welcome. As you can tell by now the members here will help any way they can. So with that in mind, here is a link to the discussion on the LC9s noted by jcren for your review.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378727-Ruger-LC9S

[RED BEAR]

Welcome aboard glad to have you as you have already figured out the answer is yes. Just approach max with caution as always.

[Cherokee]

You've already gotten lots of input so I'll just say: Welcome !

[skeet1]

The only problem in switching bullets is not the 1 gr. of weight difference but the profile of the bullet. Is the seating depth greatly different and is the nose of the bullet able to be chambered in you firearm without seating to deep?

Ken

[mdi]

Welcome to the wonderful, often frustrating and confusing world of cast boolits.

You have received a lot of info, possibly too much, but in my experience teaching and learning; K.I.S.S.!
Get a Lyman Cast bullet Handbook (the 3rd Edition is more newby friendly, but the 4th Edition has a bit more data). Use book data for powder charge and OAL. Learn the plunk test.

Also my#1 Rule that I suggest to anybody; pay no attention to any load data from any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, good intended friend, or gun shop guru. I use published reloading manuals for 98% of my load data and occasionally look in at a powder manufacturer/distributor's website. I suggest this to new reloaders at least until they have enough experience for their Poo Poo filters to develop. I have been reloading since 1969 and had one squib (1970) and no Kabooms, nor near Kabooms (I don't fear upper, "hot" loads, especially in my 44 Magnums, but I use common sense and stay below book maximums).I have seen questionable load data and at least one dangerous load (I saw a load that was one full grain over max for Unique on a forum). I log every load and normally I stsrt at the starting load and often refer back to my log for subsequent loads.

[Springfield]

I know you don't care about wasting lead, but if you were worried about using bullets that were 1 grain lighter than what the books listed, wait until you cast a bullet from the 60/40! Also, I'm pretty sure that the 60/40 bullets will be much harder and increase pressure. Our suggestion to keep that lead separate was not just about money and wasting lead, it was about safety.

[trapper9260]

Welcome to the fun .I have nothing to add then what all had been stated .

[Nano]

I got my copy of the #4 book today, so I'm gonna pour over that a bit and learn about the loads and such while I look into lead sources etc. Another question. I do plan on casting while using range lead as a source as my range said it's ok for me to collect brass and lead as long as I pay for the range time which Is 100% fair in my book. What type of lead would you consider this, to the closest description? Once I've went through the roughly 10 ish pounds of lead in my current pot. Then I'll focus on making sure I use specific alloys. I think I should be able to get a better hand on making sure my mold is hot enough as is my mix and possibly pick up a lead thermometer soon so I can write down what temps give me what type of pour. I did cast a bullet I thought looked nice, and made a single round that was within spec entirely. I just did the plunk test with my round that I assembled and it passed the plunk test with no issues. I also tested two factory rounds and both did as well. The round also fits in the magazine with no issues. Safe to say I did something right at least? However... I used the load data from the Lee deluxe die set. My completed round measured 1.125 OAL. The paper insert from the die set says that's the minimum OAL. Is this still ok? Bear with me. I'm still getting the hang of this. All this info has been amazing. :) I will say my completed round. You know how my mold has the 3... I don't know what you call them. The 3 grooves or whatever. Well my projectile is seated on the one closest to the top. Possibly half way up it. As in the round is not completely in the cartridge. Is this ok? Here's a picture of it. Hope it's ok. https://imgur.com/a/bW1r7s2

Also I might as well post this since it could be relevant. Any ideas on why my powder charge and expander die sorta... "grabs" a case and occasionally doesn't wanna let go unless I use a little more force? Also looking at my completed round it looks like the boolit is... crooked. Not by much but very slightly. I was so close too.. :(

[David2011]

So I weighed the bullet and it weighed 121gr. And when you say start with minimum load for a 124gr. I have a modern reloading second edition book and the closest data I could find to what I need is 124gr copper plated and it lists titegroup as 3.6 start grains and and max OAL of 1.150. Is this still acceptable? As for the waste of lead, honestly it's fine. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, right? Or something like that lol.

First, I want to welcome you to Castboolits.

Now, ARRRRRGH!!!! As a group we really hate to see tin wasted. Others have already said this, but you should not be casting boolits with 60/40 solder. There are economic and safety issues. The BHN (Brinell Hardness Number) of 60/40 solder is 16 so boolits cast from 60/40 will be harder than necessary or desirable for handguns. A pound of 60/40 has 6.4 ounces of tin which is enough to add to 8-10 pounds of clip on wheel weights for a BNH between 10-11. The benefit of the tin is that it is a wetting agent for molten lead, much as a drop or two of dishwater reduces the surface tension of a quart of water. It will make it much easier to get the alloy to fill the mold completely and get nice sharp corners on your boolits that mimic the machined cavities of the mold. Without the tin the mold and alloy need to be considerably hotter to get good fillout. Casting at higher temperatures has its own set of challenges and is slower compared to more normal temperatures.

Copper plated boolits can be considered the same as cast boolits since the core is soft swaged lead and the copper plating is very thin compared to a drawn copper jacket.

[AggieEE]

David2011 beat me to asking about the 60/40 marked bar. If it looks like the 60/40 was molded in and not stamped by somebody with a set of metal stamps it could be 60/40 solder. The tin % is always listed first. The exceptions will be some of the lead free solders that have a high antimony content. I've seen 95/5 listed where it's 95% antimony. If it really is 60/40 solder use about 3% by weight with your WWs. Welcome to the madness.

[jcren]

Your seating depth looks fine. Old rule of thumb is usually a thumbnail thickness of the "driving band" (first shoulder on bullet) showing. The dragging after flare/powdercharge is normal, Probably due to the flare die being a bit rough, or maybe overflaring if it sticks as the brass is coming out of the die. Could polish it if you are ocd, but the jerking actually helps settle the next charge in the measure. Don't over stress oal for now as long as you aren't pushing max pressures, book oal only applies to that exact bullet style, if it feeds and functions and is not excessivly short, good to go. Don't sweat the slightly crooked. This can be caused by the bullet being slightly out of round (didn't notice if you sized the bullet)

[fredj338]

Reloading data isn't that complicated guys nor is it that precise. The diff in the same bullet bearing surface with a bit more weight either way isn't moving the pressure needle. So no issues using 124gr data for a 125gr or even 130gr bullet if the bearing surface is the same length.

[mdi]

Hint; K.I.S.S. Some of the "suggestions" are involved enough, long enough to be a magazine article, and way overkill for a new caster.

Range lead is fine for a beginning caster. I even bought range lead from a Vendor Sponsor here and it normally runs 9-11 BHN (when I started casting I wasn't overly concerned with BHN and 98% of my casting was with wheel weights and range lead). Alloying can wait for now, as making good bullets, learning how to process and load them is more important (bullet to gun fit is very important). BTW, 60/40 is solder not bullet lead.

For now, your most important measurements; Bullet diameter and for your 9mm, groove diameter, and OAL. Just make sure the finished cartridge fits the chamber.

Load data is in your manual, stick with that.

Look at your Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for casting and loading info.

Most forum responses are good, but many new reloader's threads start out with a simple question, and the next few posts are good answers then they morph into advanced techniques and theory, very often just adding confusion to a new reloader/caster's simple request. Since the newbe isn't informed enough to separate the "wheat from the chaff", he is often left frustrated and confused...

So, again, K.I.S.S.
Go slow. Double check everything. And most important, have fun...

[Nano]

Oh I'm definitely going slow. I'm super new to it and I get people wanna just get that first fresh loaded round in I like my fingers so I'm taking my time. Like I said before. I'm going slow for my own safety. I spent the last few days going back through this thread making sure I read things properly. A lot of this info was great and you're right, it did add a lot of confusion but it also helped me a bit so I'll take it. I'm very thankful for all the wonderful help and knowledge provided. :D

[mdi]

"They" say, "the only way to learn to cast bullets, is to cast bullets". Enjoy...

[castalott]

Welcome Nano! Your harder bullets ( more tin ) can lead worse than a soft alloy. WW work just fine for most things although not all WW are the same. The older WW are much prized by me as the newer stuff just isn't as good for my purposes.

I was where you are 40+ years ago. My first 38 special loads were so light they would not shoot thru one side of a metal 55 gallon drum..... Yes, I could see them in flight now that you mention it. Lucky I didn't leave one in the barrel and the add another to it...ruining the barrel.

I did ruin a wonderful 45 acp barrel that way..... I'm just saying count your shots on target...


Best of luck... Dale

[Nano]

There was like 2 or maybe 3 bars of 60/40. The rest were WW or unknown source. I've used a total of 11 ingots from this location. So maybe I'm safe? Either way. Nothing has been fired yet. :) Lets say I did though. What is the process of cleaning the tin out? Is it like the typical rod and patch + Bore snake orrrrr toss the gun in a river and call it a loss?

[castalott]

Just try to watch for the start of it and stop before it is bad. There is a thread , I think, on spraying the bore with Kano oil and it might get under the lead to loosen it. A Lewis lead remover or such can get it out. If it is not too bad, a few jacketed rounds can do wonders. I expect the experts will answer shortly with something I have forgot. Don't let it drive you crazy. Everyone has a few problems starting out. (You can always just melt your boolets down and cast some from pure ww. Save this tin rich alloy for sweetening another mix.)

You will have to try hard to make as many mistakes as me.... Dale

[Nano]

Ok but my mix is already melted lol. I mean I have an ingot mold so I can dispense the entirety of my pot into the molds I guess.