Smooth bores?

[faustus]

I guess my question is .... why is there not more research done on smooth bores?

Last week end I hit the range for the first time this year ... and I tried my 870 ... 12ga with Ghost Rings at 100 meters/yards ... and with Federal TruBall slugs.

And to be honest, I was pretty much surprised at the accuracy that I got that day.

1.) First, ghost ring sights are not the most accurate sighting system.
2.) This was from an 18.5 inch barrel on an an 870 Police shotgun with a fixed Improved Cylinder choke and with a lousy trigger showing lots of creep.
3.) The main component for the success ... I guess ... is the Federal TruBall rifled slug.
4.) My front sight was covering 80% of the paper target .... so much for accuracy ... and a fine tuned sighting system.


239790

239791

239792


I am just imagining ... with a better trigger .... a better sighting system ... even better ammo ... what accuracy I could get. I mean who needs a rifle at 100 meters/yards if you could get sufficient accuracy to hunt large game at that distance and from a smooth bore? And I can still shoot small game with shot ... and with the same gun.

So, why is nobody doing more research in this field? Smooth bore accuracy with slugs out to 100 plus meters/yards???

Why?

I just don't get it .... :sad:


p.s.: That little ball in the picture makes all the difference!!

[Ozark mike]

About the only way to improve accuracy with a slug would to rifle the bbl as far as tech goes one would think besides a crisper action scope and recoil reducer

[NyFirefighter357]

Remington shotguns usually shoot good groups with Remington rifled slugs or Winchester rifled slugs. !00yrds with a shotgun is normal range sighting here. I had a friend that regularly shot deer over 100yrds with a Rem 1100 and Remington slugs.

[Hogtamer]

1) for a better sighting system buy a good saddle mount on your 870 and a scope.
2) cut a half round off the trigger spring and polish the sear for a better trigger.

The majority of this forum is about smoothbores but you're close to "as good as it gets" with a smoothbore shotgun and those slugs you're shooting. Nice job.

[centershot]

faustus,
Personally, I beleve the pinnacle of smoothbore accuracy was achieved many years ago when Ithaca Gun Co. introduced their Deerslayer model. In 12 ga. their barrel I.D. miked .710", IIRC. Coupled with a scope sight and ammo it liked I was able to achieve 4" groups with mine at 100 yards. My dad had one that would make cloverleafs at 75 yards. I wish I still had those guns!

By the way, from what I've seen, those Federal Tru-Balls are the best thing that ever happened to smoothbore shooters, good job on that target!

[Ozark mike]

faustus,
Personally, I beleve the pinnacle of smoothbore accuracy was achieved many years ago when Ithaca Gun Co. introduced their Deerslayer model. In 12 ga. their barrel I.D. miked .710", IIRC. Coupled with a scope sight and ammo it liked I was able to achieve 4" groups with mine at 100 yards. My dad had one that would make cloverleafs at 75 yards. I wish I still had those guns!

By the way, from what I've seen, those Federal Tru-Balls are the best thing that ever happened to smoothbore shooters, good job on that target!

My Mind must be going for some reason I was thinking the deer slayer was a version of the Browning auto 5 don't know what I was thinking always liked those Ithaca deer Guns fine weapon's indeed

[longbow]

I'm with you Faustus! My preference is still smoothbore due to its versatility. I don't really want a .73 cal. "rifle" which is what a fully rifled shotgun is... though having said that I may make the plunge.

However, after watching the Taofledermaus videos using rifled choke tube and SMOOTHBORE shooting the Moose .69 Minie and the Lyman 730 gr. .69 Minie I have decided to try the Moose Minie in my smoothbore (my copy of the Moose Minie anyway) and see how it goes. If I get even close to the results they got on the Taofledermaus video I will be happy! If not then I put my rifled choke tube adaptor on my shotgun! If that doesn't do it I may just go fully rifled.

As for smoothbore accuracy, I'll agree that factory Foster slugs can be darned accurate and yet I have not managed to equal them with home made slugs and loads. The best I have shot so far are Federal Fosters (not Tru-Ball, this was in pre-Tru-Ball days) and AQ slugs which I loaded. Both would maintain 6" or less groups at 100 yards. Winchester and Remington Foster loads were no slouches either from my gun. I wish I could get my home loads to do as well at as long a range!

Tru-Ball slugs do have a reputation for accuracy! I haven't tried any yet but I believe it. Lots of good reports on them.

As for improving your trigger, you might try the M-Carbo spring set. I put one in my Mossberg Slugster and the trigger is much nicer now. Wouldn't fix creep but that wasn't an issue with my Slugster, just really HEAVY trigger pull!

I also shimmed the barrel but am embarrassed to say that I have not shot it yet with the new brass shim I made. Been busy and distracted with other "stuff". That shim tightened the barrel up a lot.

I will get to it shortly I hope and report back on the Moose Minie copy accuracy from my smoothbore.

Longbow

[GhostHawk]

I hunted deer for years with a Rem 870 20 ga and federal slugs. Once I learned a few things I had no problem making meat.

I do need to get out and test my Lee 7/8ths oz slug loads for a couple of different 12 ga guns I have.

[6pt-sika]

It’s kinda like complaining about the food to the cook . If you think you can do better DO IT YOURSELF :groner: Now with that being said , regardless of what anyone may do and be kind enough to post on a place like this , someone is gonna be negative because the person who paid the bill didn’t do it the way someone else who wants the info for FREE wanted it done .

[6pt-sika]

However, after watching the Taofledermaus videos using rifled choke tube and SMOOTHBORE shooting the Moose .69 Minie I have decided to try the Moose Minie in my smoothbore (my copy of the Moose Minie anyway) and see how it goes. If I get even close to the results they got on the Taofledermaus video I will be happy!

Longbow

I’m gonna soon see how the Moose Wadcutter Minnie’s do in both 10 and 12 gauge smoothbore guns . And with both HB and solid base . Matter of fact I would not be surprised if I plunk a deer this coming season with one of the 10 gauge loads from one of my Parker FIXED choke doubles .

[Bazoo]

There is occasional research and improvement in the smooth bore field but it isn't much. The wheel has already been invented and it's hard to improve on it as it's as round as it is going to get. Slug hunting went to the rifled barrel niche and most of the slug research is there.

[Petander]

I'm all in for better accuracy,being a long time Long Range shooter. But it got too serious at one point, I was shooting 300 m every other week trying to get 22 mm groups instead of 24 mm the week before...

Shotgun slugs are relaxing fun to me, I accept fist size 10 shot grouping @ 35 meters. We have no "shotgun only" rules here,my deer and moose are rifle game.

But if we had "shotgun only" I'm sure I'd have been working with rifled barrels for decades. Now a slug is just a "nice to have option" with smoothbore, it is deer legal and a situation may come up. I do compete with slugs in one club,too. Great fun!

My "Economy Slugs" (converted trap ammo) costs the same to shoot as factory 9mm subsonic ammo.

[RED BEAR]

Hey good shooting better than i could do at 100 yrds . Smooth bores can be very accurate to reasonable ranges saw something once adout a fellow shooting smooth bore to 180 yrds and groups were very impressive. After all a lot of tank guns are smooth bore.

[centershot]

Over the years the call for greater accuracy from hunters in shotgun-only areas was heard by the manufacturers and today we have the plethora of rifled-barrel shotguns, Lightfield sabot, etc. That's OK! They meet a need for a lot of hunters. I myself fell victim to that "need" for more, i.e., better accuracy at one point. Long story short, here in the eastern U.S. we hunt in heavily timbered woodlands and swamps. IF you can even SEE a deer at 100 yds. there's no way you're gonna' get a shot into him, shotgun OR rifle. I've hunted big game since 1970, in all that time every deer I've killed, with three exceptions, was within thirty yards. When that thought became fixed in my mind I went back to hunting with a shotgun. A smooth bore with VR barrel and two beads for sights. IMO, the shotgun was always meant to be a do-it-all gun. Versatile. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a dedicated scope-sighted slug gun if that's what you want. There's nothing wrong with the pursuit of that magic one hole group, if that's what you want. I'm still working up slug loads for my guns, just because it's FUN! Man-o-man, once you start down this slug-making rabbit hole........OOOOOEEEEEEE!

[Cap'n Morgan]

Well, maybe it's time for Hickok45 revisited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks

230 yards, open sights, smoothbore and offhand!

[W.R.Buchanan]

To the OP, you asked,,, "So, why is nobody doing more research in this field? Smooth bore accuracy with slugs out to 100 plus meters/yards???"

50 % of this forum is totally devoted to this topic! Lots of us are pursuing this goal.

OK just to clear up a few things the Browning A5 Slug Gun was known as the "Buck Special," and has a choked Smooth Bore Barrel with open rifle sights. (See Pic below) Ithaca's Deer Slayer is also a choked barrel and they figured out that the slug which normally undersized would center up in the bore at ejection with a light choke of around I C or .715 ish. It appears from my research that Browning figured it was a good idea and followed suit. These guns typically are a little more accurate than a strait Cylinder Bore Barrel.

As far as the sighting systems and bad triggers these can be Improved or Learned. The biggest problem with Riot Guns and bad triggers is the fact that these guns are seldom fired enough to even break them in well. My Mossberg 500 had a funky trigger, 3 Front Sight Tactical Shotguns Classes cured that, along with making the gun run much smoother. I had cleaned up the action before I went the first time but I didn't mess with the trigger other than deburring the safety parts so they ran smoothly. 1000 rounds has fixed the trigger. However I have so many guns that I can't do trigger jobs on all of them. Sometimes you just have to learn the trigger and actually practice with it . All my Glocks (4 ea.) have the same trigger and they all are well broken in and I can shoot each one well with only a few dry fire shots as a warm up.

You can't do very much to improve the trigger on a #4 Mk 1 Enfield, They all have 40 yards of creep and you kinda have to live with it. However it can be learned and that's what I have done.

I suggest more shooting! Less thinking.

Now the the Target and Sight Thing. The OP's target is what lots of us use as they are common, however there is a better one out there. It is called a Black Diamond 3" for 50 yards and for 100 yards a 6-8" one is appropriate. The POA is the bottom point of the diamond.

Ghost Ring sights are designed for quick target acquisition. However the accuracy can still be there if combined with the Diamond shaped target. You simply put the bottom point of the Diamond in the middle of the top of the Front Sight and let fly. This takes a little practice but will yield much better accuracy. The size of the hole in the rear sight is of no consequence as the Front Sight automatically is centered in the rear sight by your eye.

I just shot this 3 shot group at 50 yards last week with my Browning A5 "Buck Special" with Open Sights. It measure 1" x 1.5". I didn't have any bigger Diamonds or I would have shot at 100 yards.

It helps to shoot heavy recoiling Shotguns off a Lead Sled to suck up some of the recoil. Then you can concentrate on the Sight Picture instead of getting the snot knocked out of you.

It can be done, and all we are doing is reinventing the Brown Bess Musket of 300 years ago. We have sights, and better ammo, but keep in mind that Factories that produce ammo have much larger budgets for research that most of us do, so it would seem logical that they would be able to produce ammo that would shoot better than your average home craftsman. However that isn't always true.

Lightfield started out at home and is now regarded as the Premier 12 and 20 Bore High Accuracy Ammunition Manufacturer in the US. His ammo will yield Sub MOA accuracy from the right guns (See Tarhunt 12 and 20 ga. Rifles) and claims to yield excellent results from Smoothbore barrels as well. I will see if that holds up when I test mine.

The Brenneke Catalog shows 2-2.5" groups at 50 yards from smooth bores and the same at 100 yards with rifling.

So to fully answer the question, We are working on this and there will probably never be an end all solution. There is simply too many roads to go down, too many things to try, and too much fun to have!:holysheep

My .02

Randy

[pashiner]

If it wasn't for the flier bottom left, you'd have a 4 inch group there! Pretty impressive if you ask me. I have a feeling smoothbore accuracy can only be improved to a point with 12 gauge size projectiles, plastic shells, and the chambers/forcing cones on production guns. I think if I were you, I'd stock up on those tru-balls, and call it a win!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Even with the flyer that group is pretty dang good for a Smoothbore Riot Gun at 100 yards. I'd be pretty happy. And if I hadn't already spent a bunch of $ on components to load at home or wasn't interested in the subject I'd probably just buy a bunch of Tru Balls and be done with it.

Most guys who hunt with a shotgun are only going to fire a few rounds a year so paying a dollar a piece for ammo is not a big deal.

In the 2 day Tactical Shotgun Class I'm going to tomorrow I will shoot 175 rounds of #8's, 25 Bucks and 25 slugs. In a 4 day class it is 350 #8's, 75 Bucks and 75 slugs or right at 500 rounds. That gets expensive, but luckily there is a Walmart close by!

I can't reload #8s for 21.74 cents each! But I can load homemade slugs for way less than that using new RIO Primed hulls. @.11 ea a .02 wad and .04 worth of powder. .17 for slugs is not bad, but my time isn't in that number.

Lots of ways to go here, and how can you put a price on fun.

Randy

[faustus]

If it wasn't for the flier bottom left, you'd have a 4 inch group there! Pretty impressive if you ask me. I have a feeling smoothbore accuracy can only be improved to a point with 12 gauge size projectiles, plastic shells, and the chambers/forcing cones on production guns. I think if I were you, I'd stock up on those tru-balls, and call it a win!

Thanks Pashiner, .... the bottom left was the first shot .... after that I knew where to hold .... upper right corner of the paper target. And you are right ... it seems I can do a 4" group at 100 yards ... I need to try it again to be sure.

But I was surprised by the result ... I did not think it was possible ... and especially not out of that gun with ghost rings. In my mind hunting accuracy with a smooth bore and foster slugs ended at 70 yards/meters. Now, I am not sure any more ... ??

I spent many many hundreds of dollars on sabots for my other 870 with a Hastings cantilever rifled barrel ... and to find an ammo / barrel match ... and I can only get 2" -3" group at that distance with that setup. And that is with a scope .... rifled cantilever barrel .... and proper cheek weld ... ok, the trigger is still lousy.

So, I am asking myself ... why bother with a rifled setup? I could go smooth bore all the way .... I am the kind of guy that calls 100 yards/meters my max distance. And if that deer is further away .... then my challenge is to get closer to that deer ... thats all.

But somehow ... with the exception of this forum ...

(And I am really thankful for this forum and the spirit of testing and sharing)

.... there isn't much talk out there about improving accuracy with smooth bores .... and that is what I realized .... ??

[longbow]

I am thinking that a few of the tricks to smoothbore accuracy are:

- shim or pin the barrel to eliminate the slop that most if not all take apart pump guns have
- good sights/scope
- better trigger! I still haven't field tested my M*Carbo spring set but the trigger pull is abut half what is was and that has to help
- oversize slugs ~ in the spirit of Itahca making tight bored guns to ensure tight centered fit for slugs, a guy can use larger diameter slugs and accomplish the same thing. Brenneke says their 12 ga. slugs are nominal 0.735" and crush to any bore under that. Federal Tru-Ball use the balls to make sure the skirt expands and fills the bore.
- solid and consistent wad column ~ easier said than done I think. The factories have full control of what they use and what quality/tolerance it is. We buy bulk "stuff" from BPI or Precision reloading with little to no control over the quality and consistency and this "stuff" is adequate for shot loads while maybe not for slug loads.
- I'll add that even though I like the ease of loading wad slugs I think full bore slugs are likely more inherently accurate by eliminating non-precision made wads and cushion legs. Also see solid wad columns!

All of Winchester, Remington and Federal Foster slug loads have produced what I'll call near amazing accuracy from my slug gun all the way to 100 yards. I have not been able to equal that accuracy with my home brewed slugs and loads... came very close with hand loaded AQ slugs a few years ago though, but not with home cast slugs.

Really, as Randy says for the shooting a guy "has to do", buying factory Foster slugs, Brenneke's, Gualandi's or other full bore slugs is probably the easiest way to get consistent and good accuracy. My problem is that I like to tinker so am challenged to try to duplicate the factory slug performance. I've been at it for years, semi successfully at times, and it has probably taken years off my life! But a guy has to do something!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: after my gun is broken back in after this trip to FS,, I'll be shooting some home made stuff at home.

I will be bringing back a bunch of OF Roll Crimped factory hulls I'll pick up off the range there. I have found that the Federal Hulls Roll Crimp really nicely if you trim about 1/16" off the front end which gets rid of very end of the hull which get burned up or split during firing.

I reloaded 10 of them today to take with me with Lyman Slugs, blue wads, 18 gr of Green Dot, and a perfect roll crimp. I will use them for dedicated slug drills and hopefully they will shoot right. We'll see.

I'm gone til next Wednesday. See you guys when I get back and I'll have stories to tell!

Randy

[Bob9863]

I guess my question is .... why is there not more research done on smooth bores?


I've found the best smooth bore slugs to come from Europe, I have been using GB rifled slugs and getting 3 rounds touching at 59 yards and around or just under 3" at 100 yards, I've stoped casting slugs and only cast RB now as I can't get anywhere near that accuracy with anything I can make.
I've never considered rifled shotguns to be shotguns as you can't shoot shot in them so they are a 12 bore rifle in my book.
But there are some great smoothbore slugs out there and once you find one that your gun likes do what I did and buy every box they have on the shelf.:drinks:

[longbow]

Okay then what are GB slugs and where do you get them?

The best I've shot to date, though I certainly haven't tried everything available, are AQ slugs... at least for home loading. Some factory loaded slugs have done very well for me too but... being a tinkerer, I want to cast and shoot. As you say though, I have as yet to manage to equal good factory made slugs or factory loads at ranges beyond 50m or so.

The quest continues!

Round ball to 50m can be quite accurate and can generally be depended on to maybe 70m. However, for me, 100m groups are fairly random. Sometimes good and sometimes not so good... and sometimes wild fliers. Certainly not dependable. That's why I want a good slug but... as above... the quest continues!

Longbow

[faustus]

My question would be .... how are rifled Foster slugs commercially manufactured? And how could we make our own in our hobby garage?

The TruBall Foster slug is the most accurate I have tried so far ....

[W.R.Buchanan]

The one thing that all of the High End Commercial Slugs have in common is that they are Swaged not cast. This insures an identical product from one round to the next and from one batch to the next. it also insures a perfect trailing edge which is the key to accuracy on any Lead Slug or Boolit.

It would be possible to swage slugs at home with a Corbin Press and the right dies but not cheap and certainly not worth doing unless you were going to fire literally thousands of them or going to sell them. You could also do it with a Hydraulic Arbor Press in your garage if you have one,(Harbor Freight?) and then it would just be the cost of the die.

All of the Italian slugs are swaged, Brenneke's, Lightfield's, Federal, Winchester, etc. same.

We have been studying this here for a long time and I myself have been immersed in the subject for about 9 months now.

The things I can tell you is that all of the "Rules of Boolit Casting" apply to Slugs, which are nothing more than large boolits. A perfect trailing edge being among the most critical. Weighing cast slugs and sorting around the highest weight for any given design is the key to consistency.

Balls should be perfectly round for best results. Recently saw a guy loading large ball bearings which are as close to perfect as is possible. Making sure they never touch the bore would be a good idea with those.

Next the slug (not ball) must be introduced into the bore perfectly square on two axis'and parallel to the center line of the bore.

The Slug cannot be distorted or deformed in any way during it's acceleration and release. This requires a firm base in the wad, or on top of the wad column, in the case of full bore slugs.

Every projectile has a Sweet Spot as far as velocity that allows it to fly at it's most stable, and undisturbed state during flight. You will have to hunt that speed down as it will vary from gun to gun.

I feel that these are the most significant considerations with regard to this subject. There may be more.

Feel free to add any other considerations to this list you feel I missed, as I doubt very seriously that I know everything about this,,, or any other subject.

Randy

Oh, the whole reason behind the Ball in Federal Tru-Ball Loads is that the Ball is forced into the rear cavity of the slug during acceleration and obturates the base of the slug to fit the bore, thus insuring a perfect fit to the bore every time. Pretty good idea I think.

Federal also has those nice "Flight-Control Wads" for their Buckshot loads which easily add another 10-20 yards to your shots. been working on duplicating those for a while now.

Randy

[bikerbeans]

Randy,

I would add rotation to your list. A slug is a big boolit and it needs to spin to achieve the best accuracy.

BB

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would add rotation to your list. BB

Probably a good idea!

Anything other than a ball must rotate to achieve stability. Even a ball needs to rotate some amount to get past the "Knuckle Ball" effect.

Randy

[Hogtamer]

You mean this is no good?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYrT7AcTYI

[centershot]

Yes, unfortunately for us, the swaged rifled slug is beyond the capabilities of most of us D.I.Y.'ers! If here were a way to cast a slug with helical rifling then we could build a solid wad column beneath it and be on our way to success, buuuuuttt........:sad:

[longbow]

I am in agreement with most of the above.

Not sure a slug needs to spin though if it is properly drag stabilized. Spinning sure doesn't hurt though.

I still like the AQ and that is basically a Foster slug on a plastic pedestal... not a cushion leg. And that pedestal has helical fins. Now that is something we might be able to do at home especially now with 3D printers.

I still think the wad column is a key issue as well. if the wad column tilts at all then the gas seal could leave the muzzle unevenly just like an uneven/not flat boolit base. That can't be good. The factories can muck around testing and spec what they want to then order by the tens of thousands. I note that any Foster slug loads I've seen have a quite solid wad column whether gas seal and cards or plastic... it isn't a flimsy cushion leg.

If you want plastic balls for "Tru-Ball" like slugs Corbin sells plastic balls and they are, or were, available on that internet auction site in bulk. You'd want a tough plastic like urethane, nylon, Delrin or similar. You just need a ball that will just start into the skirt so as Randy says, it pushes into the slug and forces obturation to bore diameter. Not quite sure what an oversize slug swaging down would have the same effect...

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

I know nothing about machining, so is there a technical reason someone with the right equipment cannot cut grooves into a mold that would cast fins or "rifling" on fillout?

[Ozark mike]

Most molds are made with a spinning burr shaped to the size of the bullet a small bit on a mill could cut the slots into the mold but the chamber is round and getting it right could be a headache unless someone here has done it I don't know if it is feasible

[longbow]

Nope! I've made moulds that produce straight finned and ribbed slugs. I don't have the equipment or skill set to make helical ribs/vanes but Cap'n Morgan has made moulds with helical vanes just like Brenneke.

These have to be like swaging dies though and push out of a solid mould rather than a two piece opening mould as you are used to. Look up Ideal Cylindrical moulds and you will see what they did back in the 1800's. Okay, I'll do it:

Scroll down to page 6

http://www.castpics.net/subsite/HistMolds/Ideal_barlow.pdf

also:

second from the right at the top of the page

https://www.google.com/search?q=bullet+casting+ideal+cylindrical+mould&rlz=1C1ASUM_enCA755CA755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiY-MWRiu_hAhXyHzQIHTQvBwoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=937

I make a slotted hollow core that slides inside the mould so when I cast I push out a ribbed slug. They cast just fine but don't shoot any better than smooth slugs so...

Cap'n Morgan's mould produces a beautiful Brenneke clone that shot quite accurately for him. Not sure how he cut the helical grooves, whether CNC or EDM but he did a beautiful job of it and the injection moulded tail wads as well. He is a class act!

Now, in the past I admit to being a naysayer that Foster slugs rotate. However, Taofledermaus video shows that they do indeed rotate. Not nearly fast enough to give gyroscopic stabilization but enough to average out imperfect flight so maintain a smaller spiral course. Brenneke states that the helical vanes do not impart spin but if a rifled Foster spins a Brenneke must.

It would take some extensive testing to prove whether that slow rotation has any significant benefit but I have to say that I have shot several brands of factory loaded Foster slugs and all have shot quite well and better than home cast and loaded Foster slugs. I refer back to my comment on fit and wad column here though as I believe those are as important or more so than a slow spin.

More recently I watched the Taofledermaus videos of the Moose Minie .69 and Lyman .69 Minie and was blown away with the slo-mo video as both flew perfectly stable and accurately from smoothbore. Of course there are very limited number of shots fired but still it indicates if they are launched well they can fly well and more importantly accurately.

Longbow

[Ozark mike]

Yea I imagine you could take a rifled bbl and pour lead in it then push it out hydraulically then cut at the desired length. I'm just imagining things not to be taken seriously though

[Bob9863]

Okay then what are GB slugs and where do you get them?


I don't have all the groups I shot with them, I'm overseas ATM and will dig them up when I get home, but here are the slugs and a 3 round confirmatory group I put into a tree at 65m.
Nothing else shot as good as these, I've gust got to test them on some game now.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I have sometims wondered how the dies for the original Brenneke slugs were made. My best guess is that they were forged or perhaps cold-swaged using a hardened and polished punch. It must have taken several steps (and a lot of failed tries) before reaching the final result. Nowadays the mold would be made using EDM (eletric discharge machining) where an electrode shaped as the slug is burning the cavity directly in the hardened die. This process is rather slow, but by gradually reducing the current and voltage it can produce an almost mirror-like surface which needs no further processing.

I have contemplated making swaged slugs to speed up the process and to get a more uniform product. The plan was to make a swaging unit that could be mounted in one of our injection molding machines (of which the smallest has a closing pressure about 25 ton) The "base slugs" would still have to be cast, but this could be done in an ordinary multi-cavity mold.

The procedure would be quite simple: Place a slug in the die(s) and press a button. The die closes and forms the slug while any excess lead is bled out through a tiny venting hole in the die (this will guarantee an even weight even if the base slugs are of varying weight). The die opens after a second and the finished slug(s) is ejected. Wash, rinse, repeat...

[longbow]

Well Ozark Mike has an interesting idea! Using the push out type moulds I make one could indeed rifle a short piece of round bar then make the nose and HB plugs to suit. The ejector could be the HB cavity form so the entire base plug didn't have to match rifling.

I think the rifling would have to be considerably deeper than typical rifling to be effective as vanes but that is just time spent with the rifling machine. Mine would do it.

These are quite simple moulds and easy to make. Agreed that swaged slugs would be more consistent than cast but I think well cast slugs should be accurate enough for my needs... especially since I don't think I can fit a 20 tonne press in my basement!

Alternately the rifled choke tube is an option and my next project when I get time after the archery shoots. Again referring to Taofledermaus videos, I was convinced that rifled choke tubes can impart a good spin on slugs after watching their slo-mo video. Good enough to try myself and I would have done so long ago if I had a gun threaded for choke tubes. The benefit here if it works well enough is to keep one's smoothbore but have the option of the rifled choke tube for (hopefully) improved long range accuracy.

However, as the OP notes, factory slugs seem to do quite well in smoothbore and as he says, I'd be a happy camper if I could get that sort of accuracy from my home brewed slug loads. So far good accuracy much past 50/60m with my home cast slugs and balls is elusive. I think for round balls somewhere short of 100m and more like 60 to 70m is about as far as one can expect hunting level accuracy from an un-spun round ball. A good drag stabilized slug should hold up better though as Brenneke, Gualandi, Benco-Vitt, etc. have proved they can. How do we do it I ask? Consistency keeps coming back as the answer to me. If the slug is centered solidly in the bore and leaves the muzzle the same every time with no tipped wad columns, uneven base/gas seal... and of course maintains nose forward flight through drag stabilization then it should fly well. Obviously easier said than done!

Bob9863:

Those GB slugs look like what BPI sells as Thug Slugs... and likely are. AQ's have their origins in Europe too as do Brenneke, Gualandi and many others.

SIARM has a good selection of slugs for sale and many I have not seen on this side of the pond. Not sure why but so it is. I would have figured the marked in the States would have been very large when shotgun only areas were being formed but the solution seemed to go with rifled choke tubes, fully rifled barrels and sabot slugs.

I'll have to try contacting SIARM again. No response to my last e-mail. If they'll ship to Canada they have several slugs and wads I'd like to try.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Those slugs are Thug Slugs made by Gualandi, I got some to load.

On the swaging dies with ribs, they would now be made with EDM. That is the only way to get the detail of the lettering on the face of the slugs.

However they were probably originally made by "Broaching" the groves into the die like the heads of socket head bolts are sometimes made. I have made screws in my shop that had a hex socket in both ends. They were not cold headed like the majority of screws are made since the quantities are not long enough to justify the set up of a cold heading machine. Broaching produces a chip for each groove cut which ends up in the bottom of the hole. Simply running the pilot drill (Minor Diameter of the Hex) back into the hole after broaching removes those chips and creates a smooth tapered bottom in the hole.

The Nose Detail with the raised bump in the middle of Brenneke Slugs has been there since the beginning. I suspect they drilled or bored a pilot hole then broached the ribs and then drilled the end detail which would remove the chips. The rear end of the swaging die would have been a simple punch which bottomed out at the correct depth and vent hole would bleed off the excess lead. The ejector pin could be either the whole front end detail or just the center bump, probably the former. The Germans have always been pretty good machinists, they obviously figured it out,,, over a hundred years ago! We are just Reverse Engineering it now? We are so behind!

Everybody should know by now that the ribs on those slugs are there to crush when ran thru a choke. They obviously will still "Bite" a little in the bore to impart some spin to the slug however that is not the primary reason for them. I suspect the Federal Tru Ball loads that obturate the slug to bore diameter have more of an effect on spin than just hitting the choke. Maybe that contributes to their accuracy.

I have a Brenneke Catalog which shows groups for some of their slugs. Most are shot with smooth bore barrels at 50 yards and are impressive. Some were shot at 75 yards as well and you can see how they open up into the 2.5-3" size. The 100 yard groups they show are all in the 3" range. When you consider that many hunting rifles can't even shoot that well, it is impressive, not to mention being so much more powerful!

Remember "Nothing Lives thru a Slug!"

One of the biggest problems with slugs is that generally they are about as Aerodynamic as a Refrigerator. Thus they don't fly all that well. Thus range will always be limited. But those poor aeros also detract somewhat from accuracy, and that is just something we have to live with, or find a way around.

So expecting one hole groups at 100 yards might be asking a bit much. Ranch Dog over at the Lee Loader website and here from time to time wants 3 MOA from his Marlin Slug Gun. He can get that from Lightfield Slugs however has not been able to get close to that with his handloads and he is about to abandon the project and sell everything and just buy them. I don't know if it is his ammo or his gun.

The Lightfield Slugs are the top of the heap when it comes to accuracy from Rifled Shotguns. We should all look there and try to extract as much information from their design as possible to apply to our slugs. STI also has some really accurate stuff and that is the road I am going down with my Brass Non Toxic Slugs. Lightfield sells STI slugs for reloading? Maybe that's a clue?

Don't forget that the gun also has something to do with this and if the gun won't shoot right nothing you put in it is going to make a difference. The last pic below is of the 3 shot group I shot with my A5 Smooth Bore Barrel with Federal Slugs. In this case it appears the gun is doing it's job. Hope the rifled barrel shoots too.

Randy

[faustus]

...

Everybody should know by now that the ribs on those slugs are there to crush when ran thru a choke. They obviously will still "Bite" a little in the bore to impart some spin to the slug however that is not the primary reason for them. I suspect the Federal Tru Ball loads that obturate the slug to bore diameter have more of an effect on spin than just hitting the choke. Maybe that contributes to their accuracy.

...


I can share another observation here. I have a Hastings cantilever barrel with straight rifling (Wadlock barrel). The straight rifling is supposed to keep the shotcup from rotating in the barrel when fired ... and this to improve the pattern.

Now, I have shot the Federal TruBall Foster slugs through that barrel (with a removable IC choke installed) ... and they were as accurate as out of my other 870P.

From this experiment .... it seems that rotation within the barrel does not really contribute to the accuracy ... or only marginally ... that is at least what it seems. If there is rotation, then it is after the slug left the barrel ....

240532

240533

[W.R.Buchanan]

Faustus: That is a pretty decent group at 50 yards !

There are Regular Slugs, which fly strait based on their weigh forward,
There are Sabot Slugs that discard the Sabot after it leaves the barrel but again must be weight forward or spin stabilized. There are Non Discarding Sabots that stay with the slug and can either work in a smoothbore as Drag Stabilized or in a Rifled Barrel as Spin Stabilized.
And there are Full Bore Slugs with either attached or non attached wads.

Beyond that the gun becomes the primary issue. Like all guns some shoot better than others, and some won't shoot at all.

Finding a combination of stuff that gives us the performance we want is what we are all doing here. Lots of variables.

Randy

[Ozark mike]

I was kinda thinking the fins could catch some air like a model rocket fins and impart rotation

[faustus]

Faustus: That is a pretty decent group at 50 yards !
...


Randy, thanks .... but yes, those Federal TruBall Foster slugs give me clover leaves at 50 yards out of my guns. And I have tried them out of a couple of guns ....

I wish there was a way to reverse engineer those slugs for our hobby garage .... :-(

[longbow]

Randy:

What is the slug on the right side in your post #40? It looks like the new AQ slug but different tail wad.

You should try the AQ's if you haven't. BPI has them for sale again... "new and improved" ~ they were darn good before in my experience! They work for both rifled barrel and smoothbore though I only shot them from smoothbore.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: it is a new AQ slug sitting atop a BW12 wad with the top gas seal trimmed off. That slug won't fit in a shot cup as they are full bore at .730 and the fins are flared out to .740 at the base. Sitting atop a BW12 seems like the most prudent way to load them.

I will shoot them from both just to see what happens.

I also brought a bag full of the nice Blue Federal Low Recoil Slug Hulls back with me from Front Sight. They reload the Lyman and Lee slugs really nice and re-roll crimp easily. You've got to get a set of those Grabbers with the suction cups on the ends (Harbor Freight $6-8) for picking up hulls. I left all the ones that had been stepped on and you can easily inspect each one as you pick it up with the grabbers. There were literally hundreds of them and I just picked up a Walmart Bag full and was satisfied. Probably got close to 200.

Randy

[longbow]

Okay, I couldn't make out the AQ tailwad with vanes in the pic until I looked back at it. I thought that was all one long tail wad on "something" that looked like a Lee 7/8 oz. slug but not quite.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

You wish I'd figured that out. HA! You are so far ahead on that one you should have it completely wired by now. The attached wad is a good idea and Wilhelm figured it out about 120 years ago. No need to reinvent the wheel here, just screw the wads to the slugs and be done with it. You already have this figured out. All you have to do is figure out how to make them nice and consistent.

No, I got some AQ's just to try out and see if they are that good. Once again we see that they are Swaged meaning the trailing edge is perfect on every one. When you get them you have to push the tail into the slug itself so "Some Assembly Required." I love my little Sinclair Arbor Press!

I also got some 1 1/8 oz. Thug slugs which are made by Gualandi. I bought a Kit from BPI which had 25 slugs and 25 Rio Primed Hulls. You supply the Powder and Roll Crimp and you're good to go. I see these as being the closest thing to Brenneke's that you can load at home, and for the limited amount of usage they will see (IE: Hunting or backup rounds on the gun) $21 for the Kit was reasonable. The Brenneke's I bought were $8 for a box of 5 which is reasonable. But they were literally nothing more than .11 Clear Rios loaded with a Brenneke Slug. Nothing special there and when you consider that 25 of them would be $40, the BPI Thug Slug Kit is a good deal at close to half the price. Interesting to see just how the Thug Slugs would stack up next to the Brenneke's loaded to the same velocity. Bet there wouldn't be that much difference. The sides are nearly Identical. On the noses the Thugs have an INie and the Brenneke's have an Outie.

Be interesting to see if anything that got hit by either one would know the difference,.

All I need is some Ballistic Jello.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was kinda thinking the fins could catch some air like a model rocket fins and impart rotation

Mike: this is a standard Misconception I think created by the name "Rifled Slug" If you don't know, the ribs are there to give the lead somewhere to go when shoved thru a choke. I do however believe, and some tests with high speed cameras (taofledermaus) have shown, that the slugs do rotate slowly. I attribute this to those ribs "biting" in the bore or choke and imparting some spin.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

The old AQ's came assembled! I haven't checked the new price but the old ones when I bought them about 10 years ago ran $15 US for 25 and they came in a nice tray all assembled.

The old ones looked like a round ball but had about a 3/8" hole about 2/3 of the way through and a slightly flat bottom. The tail wad had a tit sticking out (I pulled one apart) and that was pressed into the hole in the ball. The "ball" was obviously swaged and quite soft lead. The tail wad seemed like polyethylene or similar plastic... kinda slippy like but not Teflon.

I think the Thug slugs are soft(ish) lead where the Brennekes are more like zinc they are so hard. That may make a difference in terminal performance. I'd prefer both AQ's and Thug slugs harder but then I likely won't buy many. I will likely buy a Thug Slug kit to try at some point. I may very well buy some new improved AQ's too. Oh... like the Lee 7/8 oz. slug, the old AQ's would roll right up onto the nose with no help.

I will certainly be interested in your results with both these slugs... and others.

I'll stay tuned!

Longbow

[Apocalypse]

...

I'll have to try contacting SIARM again. No response to my last e-mail. If they'll ship to Canada they have several slugs and wads I'd like to try...

Here's the response I got from them last month on the same question:

"yes, all

not primers and hulls primed

best regards

giuseppe

siarm"

[W.R.Buchanan]

Something lost in translation huh? Even the google translator function doesn't get it right many times. Seems like they could do better but
I guess it is because there is no way to factor in hand movements and gestures in the Italian to English translation?

Randy

[AllanD]

I see comments in this thread about the versatility of smooth bores and guys eschewing the use of rifled shotgun barrels, because they lose that versatility as though they'd LOSE their smoothbore barrel...

I own two fully rifled shotguns, but still have the original smooth bore barrels and as we all know it takes seconds to swap barrels on most shotguns.

My Remington 870 wears an aftermarket Hastings scope sighted barrel.
My Mossberg 500 wears a fully rifled Mossberg barrel with Iron sights.

To be perfectly honest though I've put more than 50,000 rounds through the Mossberg,
SFAIK the rifled slug barrel remains unfired (Certainly it is unfired by me).

Though I live in a Rifle state, I bought those Shotguns while I lived in New Jersey (A shotgun ONLY state)
So, they haven't gotten a lot of use in the past 20 years....

However since I just started casting for my shotguns ( Lyman 525gr sabot slug) that may change...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Allen: I think you might be misunderstanding the overall concept a little. The whole point of the rifled barrels is to increase your longer distance accuracy. Most slugs are willy-nilly by 60-70 yards out of a smoothbore, (some exceptions) whereas the Slugs fired from Rifled barrels are generally good to 100+ a little?

The versatility point of the smoothbore only comes in when you need on the spot interchangeability of ammo, like if you are loaded with buckshot and a target presents itself at a longer distance, prompting you to do a Select Slug Ammo Change in order to make the longer shot..

With the smooth bore barrels in both my A5 and M500 I can shoot birdshot buckshot and slugs interchangeably in a Class or 3 Gun Comp. however the distances are going to be 50 yards or less. There is no time to change barrels so you run what you brung.

For Hunting I'm most likely going to be shooting slugs so I'll have the rifled barrels on either one of those guns, and shooting buckshot or birdshot will not be necessary.

I think we all still have all of our barrels. Kind of dumb to sell one, because as soon as you sell it, you'll need it. Best to hang on to it.

Randy

[longbow]

Also, some of us (me for sure) have always had a thing for the old Paradox guns which were mostly smoothbore with rifled choke developed by George Vincent Fosbery along with the sexiest slugs I have ever seen ~ the Kynoch Paradox bullet.

The Paradox gun "did it all" without changing barrels. I've always wanted an H&H Paradox gun but since a used one costs about as I paid for my house I guess I won't be buying one.

I may not need it but I like it and want a modern Paradox gun. Hence the desire to squeeze decent 100 yard accuracy out of a smoothbore. Since so far I have not been able to do it with home cast and home brewed slug loads, the next step is rifled choke tube. As skeptical as I have been of them Taofledermaus videos have convince me to try. Much easier to carry a rifled choke tube with me than a spare barrel. Will I ever need the slug/buckshot/birdshot capability all at once? Not likely but I don't care! I want it!

I know... there's something wrong with me! My wife says I broke some time ago.

Longbow

[Petander]

Will I ever need the slug/buckshot/birdshot capability all at once? Not likely but I don't care! I want it!

I know... there's something wrong with me! My wife says I broke some time ago.

Longbow.

Sounds familiar... I might add tungsten shot to the cocktail,it works great out of a cylider bore. That covers my 12 gauge. I've also been interested in a side-by-side 20... don't really "need" but one barrel for slug and another for shot isn't bad either... 20's are just very nice... also like the "mini cape gun" aspect...

[longbow]

Regulation with the side by is supposedly a bit of an issue... likely hit and miss (no pun intended!). I note that the Kodiak double rifle muzzleloaders and the old CVA side by's have separate sights for each barrel for that reason. The side by double rifles took some finessing to get both barrels shooting to the same POA at whatever chosen range by wedging and resoldering until they grouped both barrels together. A cheap side by shotgun (as in not a double rifle) will not likely have very good regulation for slugs or balls. One method I have read about but not tried is filing the muzzles to bleed a bit of gas off to kick the slug a bit ~ basically poor man's regulation of a poor man's "double rifle (smoothbore)". I have been thinking of trying it with an inexpensive side by I do not yet have. If it doesn't work then the muzzles can be milled flat and perpendicular to the bores again with little cost and no damage except slightly shorter barrels.

Longbow

[Petander]

Yes,regulation -or the lack of it- can be anything.

I once built a load for a friend's double 8x57 and adjusted the regulation. It took a bunch of ammo even though it was adjustable with hex screws. The gun was for sale,I sometimes regret for not grabbing it.

A SxS shotgun could use a red dot zeroed for a slug barrel, the other barrel being for shot loads... Those Rib Rider mounts are handy when/if they fit right.

[longbow]

For some reason I do not understand it is apparently easier to make over/under double rifles than side by. I would have thought they both would be just as difficult to regulate.

I have always wanted a side by rifle but it has to be in a "substantial" caliber like .45-70 or bigger. The H&H Paradox gun has always been my dream but I will never own one.

Oh well.

Longbow

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Looking way back at the OP, it seems that the success of the Federal TruBall slug lies with that plastic ball in the base of the slug. Has anyone tried such with other hollow base slugs? I'm sure the attached wad does work like fins on a shuttlecock to vastly keep the thing pointed in the right direction. I read in some thread somewhere that filling the base of a hollowbase slug with Shoe Glue or silicone caulk improved the accuracy. Apparently there is something to getting the base of the slug to swage out to center the projectile that is good for accuracy. Ah, just another turn down the rabbit hole....

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow. An o/u will change impact in the vertical plane due to recoil and barrel lift. A s/s will also shift the impact point slightly sideways as the barrels are offset from the vertical centerline of the gun.