Surplus Powder Prices

[alamogunr]

With surplus powders becoming less available to some extent, I'm beginning to question whether it is feasible to pay more than $10/lb for surplus when a canister powder may be available for $12 to $14 per lb in 8 lb jugs. I don't have a lot of experience with surplus but the little I do have has been good. As an example, Pat's Reloading has WC-846 for $100/8lbs. This is very close to BL-C(2) at $117.50/8lbs from Powder Valley. It would probably take me a couple of years to shoot up 8 lbs of either.

On the other hand, pistol powders might be used more quickly. I have a good supply of WC-820 but usually shoot mid level loads in .44 mag and .45 Colt, so another powder might be better for these. Something that would also work in .357/.38 spec. would simplify things.

Any comments or recommendations?

John
"alamogunr"

[bradh]

I agree the prices for surplus powder today don't justify buying any when you
consider having to work up loads and canister powder is just 10-15 percent
more in cost.

[felix]

The real question to ask is just what is that powder. BLC2, for example, is surplus, was surplus, could be surplus. The newer powders have different additives to control burning speed, smoke, etc. The dead give away would be the physical granule size, weight of the two powders being compared, and especially using a chrono. And besides that, moisture content of the same powder, same lot, changes during storage. The wetter it is, the slower it is. ... felix

[alamogunr]

The real question to ask is just what is that powder. BLC2, for example, is surplus, was surplus, could be surplus. The newer powders have different additives to control burning speed, smoke, etc. The dead give away would be the physical granule size, weight of the two powders being compared, and especially using a chrono. And besides that, moisture content of the same powder, same lot, changes during storage. The wetter it is, the slower it is. ... felix

I was under the impression that BL-C(2) (this is how it is listed on the Hodgdon site) was a canister powder and that if I bought it, I would be getting a consistent product. The site does indicate that it was originally a military powder. If I bought WC-846, I would have to work up loads from a different starting point than might be possible with BL-C(2). I guess my main question was, is the slight savings worth it?
John

[felix]

Worth it to a shooter? NO. Worth it to an occasional shooter who considers his time at the range a luxery? YES. This means, buy the Hodgdon lot if you are an occasional shooter. ... felix

[Kraschenbirn]

Walked through our twice-a-year local gun show Saturday morning and only one guy had any surplus powders, at all. His WC844 was $120/8# and WC860 @ $95/8#; both of which I considered a bit over-priced considering that 8-pounders of new H335 and IMR4895 were being offered for $140 and $146, respectively, about 10 tables further down the aisle...just about the same as ordering from Midway with a $20 Hazmat charge added.

Bill

[alamogunr]

Less than a year ago I got (4) 8 pounders of WC846 for about $42 per jug. I wouldn't have paid more than that since it was just plinking powder for me. I don't shoot any BIG magnums so really can't use extremely slow powders for serious use. I'm going to try some in my .25-06 but since I don't have a chronograph yet, the results will be approximate at best.

If I can work up a decent order, I will order from Powder Valley. They have always treated me right and only charge one hazmat for a powder and primer order.
John

[Jim]

I have a pound cannister of 3031 that my brother bought close to 10 years ago. The price sticker reads $21.95 . Now, most cannister powders in my area are running about $27. $100 for 8 pounds equates to $12.50 a pound. I' m happy to pay that compared to cannister prices.

[jonk]

Jim,

If you are paying $27 a pound you are getting fleeced. At gunshows here it runs about $19-$21. I suspect you coudl order 2 or 3 cans AND pay hazmat and shipping and come out ahead of $27 per pound.

[felix]

WC846 is too fast for 25-06, except maybe for the 60g or thereabout condoms. ... felix

[sundog]

Bill is right and so is Felix. If you shoot a lot and can find a GOOD application for something you shoot a lot of, buy all you can afford ONLY if the price is right. If you do not shoot a lot of the same thing, stick with canister. Look at it like this -- savings of $17 over 2 years is less than a dollar a month. It's not worth it when I can go back and get another batch of cannister of the same flavor, even with a different lot #, and not have to redevelop the load.

If you buy surplus and cannot find a use for it, you've tied up a resource ($) that could have been used for something else (canister).

Bill, those prices you mentioned I consider to be way out of line. In that particular case I would rather have canister in the exact flavor I needed.

[alamogunr]

WC846 is too fast for 25-06, except maybe for the 60g or thereabout condoms. ... felix

I goofed on my post about use in .25-06. I meant to say that I was going to use WC860, of which I have several jugs. I think that WC846 might work for .30-30 though.
John

[sundog]

John, try snooping around on castpics at member load data. There's even an 860 load from Buckshot on there for 30-30. I've used 844 in 30-30 and 32 Win Spl, and it does right swell. 846 is not that far off, so I'm bettin' you can maybe make it work. 860 with cast in the 25-06 might get the boolit out the bbl, but I bet you'll have A LOT of trash in the bore. I know that 860 work pretty good in 7 mag with condums.

[Kraschenbirn]

Bill, those prices you mentioned I consider to be way out of line. In that particular case I would rather have canister in the exact flavor I needed.

Yeah, I thought so, too. WC844 would've probably worked okay for my 30-30s and, maybe, my .308 and .303 Brit...and I would've given it a try had the price been more reasonable...but why pay a premium to reinvent the wheel when 4895 and 5744 cover 90% of my CF rifle needs, both cast and jacketed?

Bill

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I retired in October of 2006, so weather is the deciding factor on whether I go to the range or not. Wheelweights and surplus powder allow me to go and tinker all I want.

Rich

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess it depends on how much you shoot and how much your willing to buy at one time. For example i shoot alot of 820. I go through two to three kegs a year. At least i did till the back thing slowed me down. If i bought 6 kegs at 90 bucks a keg it still was enough of a savings to make it worth while. If your only going through a keg every couple years your probably best off using comercial powder. Biggest problem with surplus is a guy works up loads for a bunch of guns and then its gone and you have to start over with another powder. 820 has an advantage there to as its just aa9. Sure the burn rate varys a little but in my experience so does aa9. I use 820 because ive found nothing that worked better in mag pistol rounds not because i saved a bunch of money but the fact i do save money is definately a plus. When i look at powders like wc844 at a 100 bucks a keg i will agree that it isnt worth it to me as i dont use much and by the time i need more it will probably be gone. I can buy 335 for not much more and i dont have to work up new loads because it will allways be there.

[Shuz]

Rich--I retired in 1992 and surplus powder and lead boolits allow me to shoot way more that I would otherwise!--Shuz

[Shuz]

I guess it depends on how much you shoot and how much your willing to buy at one time. For example i shoot alot of 820. I go through two to three kegs a year. At least i did till the back thing slowed me down. If i bought 6 kegs at 90 bucks a keg it still was enough of a savings to make it worth while. If your only going through a keg every couple years your probably best off using comercial powder. Biggest problem with surplus is a guy works up loads for a bunch of guns and then its gone and you have to start over with another powder. 820 has an advantage there to as its just aa9. Sure the burn rate varys a little but in my experience so does aa9. I use 820 because ive found nothing that worked better in mag pistol rounds not because i saved a bunch of money but the fact i do save money is definately a plus. When i look at powders like wc844 at a 100 bucks a keg i will agree that it isnt worth it to me as i dont use much and by the time i need more it will probably be gone. I can buy 335 for not much more and i dont have to work up new loads because it will allways be there.

LLoyd--what kind of primers do you use with WC820?

[Shiloh]

Walked through our twice-a-year local gun show Saturday morning and only one guy had any surplus powders, at all. His WC844 was $120/8# and WC860 @ $95/8#; both of which I considered a bit over-priced considering that 8-pounders of new H335 and IMR4895 were being offered for $140 and $146, respectively, about 10 tables further down the aisle...just about the same as ordering from Midway with a $20 Hazmat charge added.

Bill

It's been a while since I ordered powder, WC 846. Glad I did when I did. Now it's around $100-$110 plus shipping and HAZMAT or $120 at a gun show. I haven't seen it at the last couple of local gun shows, but heard it was available at the bigger gun show. I still have about 5# left of the original two 8 # kegs purchased for $144 out the door. It is a shame that surplus is almost gone. What is left is getting close to canister grade prices.

Shiloh :castmine:

[wiljen]

Dan at Hi-tech has held the line pretty well on prices - I just bought 5 jugs of 7383 for $36 a jug.
Not at all shabby in today's market.

[Maven]

Ray, I've used WC 820 for many years with a 180gr. GCCB in my .357mags., but always with magnum primers. When I finally try it (17grs. as per your recommendation) in the .44mag., it will also be with magnum primers. If the smaller caliber is any indication, it will burn very cleanly in the .44mag. too.

[Lloyd Smale]

mostly cci 350s. it can be a tough powder to ignite well. Simular to 110
LLoyd--what kind of primers do you use with WC820?

[Kraschenbirn]

Hit the big "1500" gun show in Indianapolis this afternoon (the "1500" stands for 1500 available tables and they were better than 95% filled). Not a single pound of surplus powder anywhere anywhere in the building and only, maybe, a half dozen or ten sellers with any powder or reloading components at all...but all kinds of loaded ammo, mostly imported stuff. No bargains on what was there, either; best I could manage was to swap a a few boxes of S&B (Czech) 7.52x39 ball ammo (leftovers from my SKS) for a couple hundred rounds of once-fired W-W 30-30s and a pair of aftermarket SKS mags for 100 rounds of new Privi 7.5x55 brass (with the Graf's labels still in the bags).

Bill

[Hardcast416taylor]

Last week on a "gun place" driving trip I noticed the following prices on IMR-4350 in pound plastic jars. Bass Pro Shoppe in Pontiac, Mi was $25, Gander Mountain in Flint was $26. Down the road to Williams Gun Sight in Davision it was $20!. I took the only 3 jars they had. I was told 4350 was hard to come by this year for some reason.:coffee:

[bigdog454]

Just bought a Jug of PR700 for $400.00 thought the price was a little high. But then the guy thru in 2 dillions, 1Lyman shout shell press, 14 sets of dies, 8 bullet molds, and 10 or 12 1-lb cans of other powder along with 4 to 5000 primers.
So I guess I did OK

[TCLouis]

BigDog454

Sounds like a very good to GREAT deal. At the end of the first sentence I wondered what the follow-up posts might look like, but as your list grew I could feel you gloating clear through the internet!

[hydraulic]

Befoe you buy a large amount of powder make sure it's right for your calibre. Midway had a sale on AA2230, last year, and my burning rate chart showed it was about halfway between IMR 3031 and IMR4895. That should be just the thing for my 03-A3, says I, so I ordered 24 lbs for $9.99 a lb. Hazmat brought it up to $11 a pound. 22 grains under 31141 shoots better than any other load I have ever tried. Then I found out from Felix and some of the boys that it is dangerous to use light charges of ball powder in the middle burning rate range. I still have 22 lbs. sitting under the bench.

[PatMarlin]

Then I found out from Felix and some of the boys that it is dangerous to use light charges of ball powder in the middle burning rate range. I still have 22 lbs. sitting under the bench.

Is there a thread on the subject?

[wiljen]

Befoe you buy a large amount of powder make sure it's right for your calibre. Midway had a sale on AA2230, last year, and my burning rate chart showed it was about halfway between IMR 3031 and IMR4895. That should be just the thing for my 03-A3, says I, so I ordered 24 lbs for $9.99 a lb. Hazmat brought it up to $11 a pound. 22 grains under 31141 shoots better than any other load I have ever tried. Then I found out from Felix and some of the boys that it is dangerous to use light charges of ball powder in the middle burning rate range. I still have 22 lbs. sitting under the bench.

Why not use Dacron fiber to take up the case volume ahead of the powder charge to remove the air space?

[rockrat]

Either that or sell the 2230 to me!! Probably work fine in my 7.62 x 39 single shot.

[PatMarlin]

Why is ball a problem in this instance, and stick powders not?

[felix]

Powder shape is not the question, Pat, like you suggest. It is the deterrent coatings placed upon the finished shape. Ball powders (slower than Unique) are typically made for high performance/pressure applications first and foremost, and use coatings/flattening to fine tune the speed required without regard to ignition characteristics. Thus, each lot would be different ignition wise. The only way to really tell is the use the chrono for the ES of the chosen load. Anything over a 100, say, would be dangerous, caused by too much expansion ratio, or too large of a case to begin with. ... felix

[Scrounger]

Felix would know a heck of a lot more about it, including any safety concerns, but in my experience, ball powder does not work well at all in loads of less than 90% of maximum. Extruded powder can be loaded down to a much smaller percentage. That's why in a lot of cases ball powders do not do well with cast bullets. One exception is the .30-30.

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for the input guys.

I ask these questions, not only for my own info but for the info of others as well as this is very important to learn and keep in mind when it comes to the safety of our field.

Before I joined cast boolits, I had no knowledge of the potential hiddon dangers of various powders, case density, etc. Combine that with books like Lyman's Cast and the issue can be very confusing to a newcomer.

[hydraulic]

Well, I still hope to work something out with all that 2230 I have. There is a new chrony under the tree this year, I just learned, so I'm going to load up about 30 rounds and run them past the screens in hopes that they produce significantly less than 100 fps ES. I would have done this before, but I shot my old chrony, and was too embarassed to mention it to the Mrs. She thought it would make a good Christmas present.

[Ricochet]

2230 works mighty well for full power cast loads in .45-70.

[rbstern]

At gunshows and retail shops, local powder prices have risen. Online, not so much.

Via local online forums, I recruited three other reloaders, and we placed a moderate sized order (about $700) for powder and primers with Powder Valley. Shipping and hazmat came to $10 for each person in the order. I got an 8lb jug of Alliant promo for $77, and a pound of Acurate No.2 for $13.50.

I did the legwork to collect money and coordinate the local pickup, but it wasn't a huge hassle. A little patience from everyone, and careful communication to get the order right, and it's not a big deal. Not much different than a bullet mold group buy.

I like surp WC820 and 4895, but given the prices and lack of availability for surplus these days, I'd try to organize another, local group buy before I placed an order for surplus.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Is it just me seeing this or has everybody forgotten that AA-2230 is originally designed for the M-16 round the .223. :confused: Robert

[Ricochet]

Nope. Haven't forgotten that.

[PDshooter]

I retired in October of 2006, so weather is the deciding factor on whether I go to the range or not. Wheelweights and surplus powder allow me to go and tinker all I want.

Rich


+++111:-D
I'm with you!
10 more years, and I hope I can retire too!:castmine:

[georgeld]

My last combined order at the club came to three 6 jug cases from PVI.
That UPS driver was rolling his eyeballs and asked: "is that what I think it is?" "What's that?" "Gun powder" "yep", what you gonna blow up with all that?" "Not gonna blow anything up with it" "bunch of us shooters at the range put a group buy together and I ordered it all, we're gonna be shooting a lot over the next year or two" "ok, man that's a big relief to hear, have fun"

With it stacked in the livingroom that night I got to thinking that was quite a pile of powder so started making the phone calls for delivery the next morning. Sure glad I did as about 6pm the next evening CBI agent came to the door to ask a few questions. I'd never had that happen before, but, never ordered that much at once before either. By then I only had three jugs at the place.
Something to keep in mind if you place an overly large order. Get rid of it quick as it might draw flies or attention and some wive's might get dumb ideas about the size of the hole it would make in the ground.

[rbstern]

My last combined order at the club came to three 6 jug cases from PVI.
That UPS driver was rolling his eyeballs and asked: "is that what I think it is?" "What's that?" "Gun powder" "yep", what you gonna blow up with all that?" "Not gonna blow anything up with it" "bunch of us shooters at the range put a group buy together and I ordered it all, we're gonna be shooting a lot over the next year or two" "ok, man that's a big relief to hear, have fun"

With it stacked in the livingroom that night I got to thinking that was quite a pile of powder so started making the phone calls for delivery the next morning. Sure glad I did as about 6pm the next evening CBI agent came to the door to ask a few questions. I'd never had that happen before, but, never ordered that much at once before either. By then I only had three jugs at the place.
Something to keep in mind if you place an overly large order. Get rid of it quick as it might draw flies or attention and some wive's might get dumb ideas about the size of the hole it would make in the ground.

You're the second person I've heard this from in less than a month. Other person ordered a lot of ammo for a years worth of competitive shooting. ATF showed up, asking questions.

Hmm. Just how free a society do we live in?

[wiljen]

Ah a new form of gun control - transit police. You know the folks who sold you the powder didnt call CBI or ATF, so who do you think did? Sounds like UPS may have a new policy regarding customer privacy or Lack thereof.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

ask me why I dislike UPS...

Rich

[rbstern]

ask me why I dislike UPS...

Rich

Why do you dislike UPS?

[Heavy lead]

Is it just me seeing this or has everybody forgotten that AA-2230 is originally designed for the M-16 round the .223. :confused: Robert

Yep, it's pretty good in the 308 for lighter j bullet (150 and less) and similiar cartridges too.

[Heavy lead]

Felix would know a heck of a lot more about it, including any safety concerns, but in my experience, ball powder does not work well at all in loads of less than 90% of maximum. Extruded powder can be loaded down to a much smaller percentage. That's why in a lot of cases ball powders do not do well with cast bullets. One exception is the .30-30.

I've found this true as well, with one exception. I have never had any luck with 4064, or any of the Alliant Reloder powders until I started to approach maximum, then exceptional accuracy.

[wills]

With it stacked in the livingroom that night I got to thinking that was quite a pile of powder so started making the phone calls for delivery the next morning. Sure glad I did as about 6pm the next evening CBI agent came to the door to ask a few questions. I'd never had that happen before, but, never ordered that much at once before either.

What is CBI and did he have a warrant?

[PatMarlin]

Cast Boolit Investigator.

[rugerman1]

Colorado Bureau of Investigation
Includes missing persons and sex offender information, Colorado's most wanted, and other CBI news.
cbi.state.co.us

[exile]

This type of scenerio is exactly why I never wanted to order powder or primers through the mail, however the last couple of times I bought primers at Scheels and Cabela's they acted like they were doing me a favor, so I ordered some by mail. I did not get that much because I could not afford it, however I would not get large quantities in the future for exactly this reason. It pays to be cautious I guess.

exile

[jtihlarik]

I’m Looking for IMR 4895 To reload 30 cal 150 grain FMJ/BT (308 win) rounds. Everything is out of stock at every vendor and store near me right now which from what I’ve heard it’s the same everywhere else right now and since I don’t think you can buy powder through the mail atleast I haven’t been able to find any that delivers or ships it through the mail. I have IMR 4198 to reload .223-5.56 rounds for my AR-15 I also have Bullseye to reload my 45acp. I’m not sure if the IMR4198 matches up to these rounds there were not casted at home there Hornady #3037 .308 so as of right now I don’t have anyway to reload my 308 win. Anyone with tips or know where to get any IMR4895 plz let me know thanks

[jtihlarik]

Yeah it’s scary when buying from unknown sources. How it was stored, made and weather conditions can affect a lot in powder. None of us want to have or be part of a Scott from
Kentucky ballistic situation. But That’s what can happen when a round or powder is stored for long periods of time or not stored correctly etc. I was reading pat’s reloading website he sells a surplus of something similar to BL-C(2) powder. Never used it and don’t know anyone who has either. So I don’t want to say
Either way.

[perotter]

About the only surplus I know of that might fit your needs in .308 is in the burn range of 4831, IMR7383. GI Brass has it for a about $10 a pound plus shipping, etc.

I haven't seen any surplus 4895 in years.

[Burnt Fingers]

This is a 13 year old thread.

Why not just start a new thread????