Wiring Question - 220v Bullet Master Caster

[AnthonyB]

I have a 220v Master Caster I would like to get set up in my shop. I have plenty of open slots in the junction box and will need to run around 80 feet (call it 100 feet to be safe) of wire to get the pot where I want it. I know nothing about electricity other than that 220 knocked me for a loop the last time I messed with it - lesson learned about taking the breaker with me from now on. My question is about what size wire I need to run that distance. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Tony

[Froogal]

It depends on how many amps that Master Caster needs. My upright air compressor out in the shop is wired with 10 gauge. My arc welder is wired with 4 gauge. Electric kitchen ranges and clothes dryers used to all call for 8 gauge, but both are now happy with 10 gauge.

[gwpercle]

Hire a real Electrician.
Show him the pot you want to use , answer any questions he might have then go inside and let the man do his job.
It will be worth every penny.
Not getting electrocuted , not burning your house or shop down, getting a good night sleep because you know the wire size , breaker size and connections are all correct ....Priceless!!!
Gary

[AnthonyB]

240 volts, 12.5 Amps and 300 watts from the Magma website.
Tony

[mattw]

Well... 10 gauge would be fine, but over the distance I would go 8. At 100 feet the voltage drop on 8 gauge will be less than 1%, 10 gauge is just over 1%. This is for copper conductors, I would not use aluminum. I am also assuming single phase 240 distribution.

[Springfield]

3000 watts, not 300.

[mattw]

3000 watts, not 300.

That sounds much better... assumed a typo and based the voltage drop on current.

[AnthonyB]

Correct, fat finger typo. 3000 watts. Matt, what is "single phase 240 distribution?" I am only YouTube smart at this point.
Tony

[ReloaderFred]

You can change that Master Caster to 110 volts by simply moving two wires behind the thermostat. The wiring diagram is on the Magma website here:

http://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/Master_CASTER_Instructions.pdf

Page 5 has the information needed.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[AnthonyB]

Not my day for typing. This is a 90 lb Cast Master pot, not a Master Caster.
Tony

[HATCH]

run 10-3 romex for a 100 foot run
You will have a 3 volt drop over the distance of the run.
You could go with 8-3 and have a 2 volt drop.

By the book 14-3 will give you a 3% drop and still be acceptable.
Personally I think 12/3 is plenty

Its easy to wire up.
you have 3 wire.
Red/black/green
Red and black are HOT wire.
Green is ground.

Your breaker has 2 poles (levers). You are gonna hook the red and black wires to them. One per pole.
The green wire or bare copper will go to the ground bar in your panel.
I would wire up the pot first then wire up the panel last.
Its REALLY easy.

[mattw]

Hatch, nice instructions, knew I should not answer from my phone at work. Even forgot to double the drop. At our university, if 100 plus feet, we upgauge.

[AnthonyB]

Thanks for all the help. I’ll go with 8 gauge and let my son do the connections!
Tony

[Catshooter]

Anthony,

The Romex you want is called 10-2, with ground (not 10-3). Thirty amp two pole breaker in your panel.

I've been a commercial/industrial electrician for more than 40 years and if I were running it for me (or anyone else) I'd use the #10. There is a considerable jump in price between #8 and #10.

There is no reason to care about voltage loss. If one wants to get technical, this is a resistive load, so dropping (if a 100 foot run would do so) the voltage by a few percent only means that the wattage would drop accordingly. Utility company will vary the voltage on any give day more than that.

No problem, no concerns for safety in any corner.

If this was a motor (like a compressor) then one would take a few other considerations up and might end up with #8. Might. The 8-2 will work, but you'll spend more, drill bigger holes to run it through and work much harder to install it. To gain nothing.



Cat

[lightman]

If you have not already bought the material, consider this. I use an app for voltage drop and it shows 14 gauge copper wire would have a 2.79% loss using 100 feet and 12.5 amps at 240 volts. Seeing this, I would run 12. I would use 12-3 if I were doing this job for you. Most consider 3% to be an acceptable loss.

Larger wire is more difficult to make up and sometimes the terminals on the device won't accept much larger wire. I've used this app a lot. Everything from residential use to commercial and I have compared it to my hand calculations enough to trust it.

[Randy Bohannon]

Anthony you’re a funny guy, ‘I’m only YouTube’ smart, ‘ I’ll let my Son do the connections’ .

[Lloyd Smale]

12.5 amps means 6.24 on each leg so a 10 amp breaker is fine and so would be #14 wire. You sure don't need anything bigger then 12 for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

12.5 amps means 6.24 on each leg so a 10 amp breaker is fine and so would be #14 wire. You sure don't need anything bigger then 12 for it. Nothing wrong with over kill but think of it like this. the average toaster draws about a 1000 watts. Same circuit in my house feeds my toaster, fridge, microwave and any plug in 120 appliance. MANY times my fridge is running when the toaster or microwave are running and maybe even 3 things at once and my house is wired with 14 and those are all 120 vt loads so all the amperage is on one leg. My house is 60 feet long and the breakbox is on one end the kitchen on the other. I guess id look at it like this. If I knew all id ever use that plug for is your pot I wouldn't waste money on anything bigger then 14. If I possibly would someday use it for something with a 3/4 hp or smaller 220 vt motor that needed start up amperage that would run higher id step up to 12. Anything bigger is a waste unless your using it for a big welder, compressor or a 1hp or larger pump.

[Catshooter]

Anthony,

This is a forum of shooters. Not electricians. A lot of the advice you've gotten here is worse than useless. Virtually every thread I've seen here asking for electrical advice is full of very poor or worse advice.

Run what you think is best. Or if you've got a sparky for a friend ask him. Or just hire one. Good luck.



Cat

[Paper Puncher]

12.5 amps means 6.24 on each leg so a 10 amp breaker is fine and so would be #14 wire. You sure don't need anything bigger then 12 for it.

Doesn't work that way.

Your house has two hot leads coming in to it. L1 and L2. The voltage from L1 to L2 is 220v (sine wave). There is a Neutral wire at zero volts. The voltage from L1 to Neutral is 110v. (Top half of sine wave). The voltage from L2 to Neutral is 110v. (Bottom half of sine wave).

On a 220v volt circuit each leg (L1 and L2) is seeing the full load. In Anthony's case 12.5 Amps.

[lightman]

Anthony,

This is a forum of shooters. Not electricians. A lot of the advice you've gotten here is worse than useless. Virtually every thread I've seen here asking for electrical advice is full of very poor or worse advice.

Run what you think is best. Or if you've got a sparky for a friend ask him. Or just hire one. Good luck.



Cat

This is very sound advice. gwpurcel suggested this back in post #3. As a former licensed electrician I have seen both very good and very bad work done by homeowners. And even some "electricians".

[Catshooter]

Doesn't work that way.

Your house has two hot leads coming in to it. L1 and L2. The voltage from L1 to L2 is 220v (sine wave). There is a Neutral wire at zero volts. The voltage from L1 to Neutral is 110v. (Top half of sine wave). The voltage from L2 to Neutral is 110v. (Bottom half of sine wave).

On a 220v volt circuit each leg (L1 and L2) is seeing the full load. In Anthony's case 12.5 Amps.

Yes, exactly. And good luck trying to find a 10 amp breaker that'll fit your home panel! A fine example of what I was talking about.


Cat

[AnthonyB]

Fella's; thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. I have been out of town and away from the computer for a few days, and am not in a hurry to get this done. I'll ask around for more help before moving forward. And no, I won't let my son make the connections for me!
Tony

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but YOU are wrong. If you have a motor that draws 30 amps and feed it with 110 you will have 30 amps on that wire. If you feed it with 220 you will have 15 amps on each leg as the motor doesn't magicaly take 60 amps to run because it is hooked up 220.

Amps=wattage divided by voltage. So if you have a motor that draws 480 watts at 120 volts you get 4 amps draw, power it by 240 volts and each leg gets 2 amp of draw. If it didn't nobody would use a 240 volt motor because it would result in using twice the wattage (what your billed for) then the same size motor in 120 volt. Wattage is voltage x amperage. So a 240 volt motor drawing 2 amps for one hour is 480 watt hours, a 120 volt motor drawing 4 amps gives you the same 480 watt hours. If that 240 volt motor still drew 4 amps on each leg your meter would spin twice as fast and youd use 960 watthours. What the 240 motor gives for advantage is the ability to use smaller conductor with a given hp motor because the amperage is split between two legs not one and it also puts an equal load on both sides of your breaker box so you keep your load balanced. Sorry bud but I was an electrical lineman for 35 years and its not my first rodeo. I also know how your meter works and I think I might even know that your house has two hot legs coming into it.
Doesn't work that way.

Your house has two hot leads coming in to it. L1 and L2. The voltage from L1 to L2 is 220v (sine wave). There is a Neutral wire at zero volts. The voltage from L1 to Neutral is 110v. (Top half of sine wave). The voltage from L2 to Neutral is 110v. (Bottom half of sine wave).

On a 220v volt circuit each leg (L1 and L2) is seeing the full load. In Anthony's case 12.5 Amps.

[Paper Puncher]

"240 volts, 12.5 Amps and 3000 watts from the Magma website."

“12.5 amps means 6.24 on each leg so a 10 amp breaker is fine and so would be #14 wire. You sure don't need anything bigger then 12 for it.”

“Amps=wattage divided by voltage. So if you have a motor that draws 480 watts at 120 volts you get 4 amps draw, power it by 240 volts and each leg gets 2 amp of draw. “

Loyd

I sure don’t have the experience you have. I am a bit confused.

If the pot is using 12.5 amps, 3000 watts divided by 240 volts. Wouldn’t it require 25 amps to run on 120 volts if you wanted the same wattage (3000 watts)?

The pot is 3000 watts. The voltage is 240 volt. So the amperage is 12.5 amps.
The motor is 480 watts. The voltage is 240 volt. So a 2 amp draw each leg.

How do you get the 6.24?

[Ozark mike]

As far as distance any decent electric supply place with have a chart for wire ga

[iomskp]

The best advise given so far is employ a qualified electrician, we don't do an apprenticeship on low wages for years just for the job title.

[Catshooter]

Lloyd,

AnthonyB states that this pot draws 12.5 amps @ 240 volt. Twelve point five at two forty, man. No where is anyone saying anything about feeding anything with 120.



Cat

[Lloyd Smale]

If the pot is using 12.5 amps, 3000 watts divided by 240 volts. Wouldn’t it require 25 amps to run on 120 volts if you wanted the same wattage (3000 watts)? Think of amps as the push behind the voltage. watts is the power used. Be it 120 or 240 if its 3000 watts are need it takes 25 amps to push it. Difference is if you power it with 110 the 25 amps is on one leg. Run it 240 and the amperage load is still 25 amps but its split between two conducters each carrying 12.5 amps. All it does on something like a pot is allow you to use smaller conductor and smaller breakers. It wont heat up faster or heat up hotter or make your meter spin slower.


How do you get the 6.24? call it a brain fart:p. 3000 watts at 240 would take 12.5 amps on each leg. 25 amps on 110. So in the case of this 220 pot a 20 amp breaker and #12 wire would be plenty. A 15 amp 220 breaker and #14 would get it done. The nec puts lots of safe leeway in what they demand for safety reasons.

[Paper Puncher]

Loyd

I have had more than one of those brain farts myself. I hate when I climb up a ladder take a measurement climb down to cut the board and then can't remember what the measurement was. LOL

[Catshooter]

Lloyd,

You need to stop posting in these sorts of threads.

3000 watts @ 120 volts = 25 amps. 25 amps on the black, and 25 amps on the white. Two conductors.

3000 watts @ 240 volts = 12.5 amps. 12.5 on the black, and 12.5 amps on the white. Two conductors.


Cat

[Lloyd Smale]

did I say something different?? amperage is the same measured anywhere in the circuit. You seem pretty quick to give answers yourself but then tell us that we shouldnt look here for advice. Or is it just everyones advice but yours? Don't see where this post added a thing to what was not already said. Are you a licensed electrician??
Lloyd,

You need to stop posting in these sorts of threads.

3000 watts @ 120 volts = 25 amps. 25 amps on the black, and 25 amps on the white. Two conductors.

3000 watts @ 240 volts = 12.5 amps. 12.5 on the black, and 12.5 amps on the white. Two conductors.


Cat

[gwpercle]

Anthony,

This is a forum of shooters. Not electricians. A lot of the advice you've gotten here is worse than useless. Virtually every thread I've seen here asking for electrical advice is full of very poor or worse advice.

Run what you think is best. Or if you've got a sparky for a friend ask him. Or just hire one. Good luck.



Cat
What about my advice to just hire a real electrician ?.... My father was a one and I helped him rewire many a homeowner's botched electrical jobs that wouldn't pass building inspection.
He alway's told me it would have been cheaper if the homeowner had let him do the job correctly from the get go .
Gary

[HATCH]

Enough

Watts = volts times amps

Watts/volts = amps

Yes 10-2/12-2/14-2 Romeo is what I meant.
I think of conductors.
240 is two hots and a ground.

Amp load is on all wires.
That is why a 20 amp double pole breaker is 20 amps per pole