Lee .44 M Factory Crimp Die issues

[Captain*Kirk]

Hi, I'm copying/pasting from a thread I did last year on another forum regarding the Lee FCD in .44RM using Berry's plated 240gr FN bullets to see if anyone experienced the same or similar issues here. The issue at hand was never resolved; in the end I just reverted to crimping with the standard RCBS RC die and it works just dandy. However, having an inquisitive mind, just saying the FCD "doesn't work" is not an answer, and neither Lee tech support nor Berry's Bullets could give me an acceptable answer other than "It should work". Well, it didn't, and I'd like to know why not.



I ordered a Lee factory crimp die for my .44 magnum reloads. Turns out my RCBS dies were roll crimp dies after all, and roll crimping plated bullets is somewhat frowned upon, as there is no cannelure. Mind you, they slip right in and out of the cylinder on my Super Blackhawk with simple gravity (Sir Isaac Newton would blush), shoot and group just fine using my standard RCBS carbide dies, but my research on the interweb thingie recommended a taper crimp on plated bullets. Having experienced nothing but awesomeness out of the Lee TC dies I have for my rifle cartridges, I immediately opted for the Lee FC die in .44 spl/.44RM. Tonight's exercise in frustration involved spooling up a lot of 50 and simply seating to the correct depth without using the roll crimp function in my RCBS die. I then set up the Lee FC die and proceeded to crimp cartridge #1. Harrumph...while it did give a slight crimp, the bullet was loose. I could spin it by hand. I gave the crimp knob another quarter twist, and...hell's bells! Despite all the flowery rhetoric on the instructions (see below) Nuts if it didn't bulge the case! I backed off on the adjustment and loaded one more. It seemed OK, but looked strangely similar to the couple hundred I had roll crimped using my RCBS dies. The next three turned out like THIS:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4203/34693663692_a27f1de7c3_z.jpg

No, you are not imagining the huge bulge in the middle of the cases.

I then re-read the instructions:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4267/34047058603_377e5777f0_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4268/34817239756_3abf8323d5_z.jpg

Notice the fact that it is, apparently, a roll crimp die. Also notice the statements about being "impossible to buckle the case" and "crimps bullets with no cannelure"

To that, I say nonsense.
Quite frankly, the bullets I produced using the RCBS die were 100% more uniform with zero buckling or bulge. After pulling the bullets and powder and resizing the cases, I have three cases that MIGHT be able to be fire-formed and resized again, but doubtful. This die should have performed to the specifications in the instructions. Instead, it ruined three good cases. I will call Lee Precision to get their take on this before doing any negative reviews, but the Captain is NOT a happy camper.
FWIW, I stopped crimping immediately on the rest of the batch. No sense throwing good money after bad.

[Captain*Kirk]

Posted the following day after discussions with both Lee tech support and Berry's tech support:

OK, so I talked to Lee Precision this morning. All Tech Support could recommend was backing off on the crimp.
Let's recall, if we may, that the first crimp resulted in a loose bullet...
In lieu, they recommended I try either their taper crimp die, or their collet-type crimp die (which I thought I was getting in the first place). So I looked up the specs on these two dies
Turns out the taper crimp die description states "Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove (cannelure)" So, no go there. Nuts.
Checking the collet-type die info reveals that it is NOT a carbide die. Nuts #2.
MidwayUSA tech support was unable to give me a confirmation on anything. But they did provide me with a tech support phone # to Berry's Bullets.
A phone call to Berry's gave me the info I wanted. First, they recommend a light roll crimp over a taper crimp or collet-type crimp. Second, the fact that it sort of makes it's own cannelure via the roll crimp process is not only acceptable, but actually preferred.
The solution? Go back to doing exactly what I was doing, roll crimping with the standard RCBS carbide die. Duh.
Since I've already paid for the Lee die plus shipping and it will cost me half again as much to return it, I'll just hang on to it and try it out on jacketed bullets with cannelure like the Hornady XTP's I load for defense.
Bottom line; don't believe everything you read on the internet.

What this tells me is that the Lee FCD is unsuitable for plated bullets such as the Ranier and Berry's despite what Lee's advertising says. I would not recommend using the FCD on any bullet without a cannelure.

[country gent]

Several things to remember when looking at dies and descriptions. First a carbide die isn't a solid carbide die body that would be prohibitive from material and machining costs perspective. The carbide in most carbide dies is a ring at the base in the sizing die about 3/8" wide pressed or soldered in place. The body is steel. Expanders, bell, and seaters are steel.

Crimping is done by rolling the case mouth in and if no room or "edge" to grab on over then its more a tightened neck tension. On some bullets with out grooves you can crimp over the shoulder or ogive. Some softer bullets you can push into the jacket or copper plating forming a chanelure while crimping, not the best way to do it but can be done. The true crimp needs a place to form into when forming or forces go much higher.

There are tools to roll the crimp groove into bullets that don't have them. In jacketed or copper plated I would question how it affects the integrity between jacket and core.

[Captain*Kirk]

Thanks for that info.
Since the RC RCBS carbide dies work, don't buckle the cases, produce a tight crimp and chamber easily in my Super Blackhawk, the obvious solution at this point is carry on with what I'm doing. Which, in fact, is what prompted me to dig this thread up. I recently loaded over 500rds using the Berry's bullets without a single hitch. Not one bad crimp, loose bullet or bulged case.
The point is, not every Best New Thing is necessary or even appropriate. And sometimes, it flat out doesn't even work...

[Walks]

Buy a GOOD TAPER CRIMP DIE.

From; RCBS, LYMAN OR REDDING.

Some things from Lee work Fine, some are Ok, and Some work lie ****.

[Maven]

[QUOTE=Walks;4622509]Buy a GOOD TAPER CRIMP DIE.

From; RCBS, LYMAN OR REDDING.


I second Walks' advice: saves a lot of problems regarding case length too.

[Carrier]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.
Something is not right be it the die or how you are using it. I would bet something is wrong with the die or the crimp insert.

[ioon44]

I removed the Carbide sizer ring from my Lee FCD as it was swagging the cast bullets for my .44 spl, with the sizer ring removed it does OK for the few .44 spl I load, if I were loading a lot of .44 spl I would use better dies.

[Gillie Dog]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.

That is my experience with the 44 mag LEE FCD also. Have never had any problems and a nice end product is produced. (Do not run cast though, only plated and jacketed.)

GD

[Moleman-]

Buy a lyman taper crimp die. It is a true gentle taper crimp and not the abrupt "taper" crimp that really produces a modified roll crimp that Lee sells. Do you have any neck tension? you mentioned being able to spin the bullet by hand. These pics are for a 357, but the cerro castings would be similar for 44. Note how short of a "taper" the Lee dies have v/s the Lyman taper crimp die. Bought my Lyman 44mag taper crimp die at the clearance bin at Gander mountain likely 30 years ago for $5.

[Captain*Kirk]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.
Something is not right be it the die or how you are using it. I would bet something is wrong with the die or the crimp insert.

Well, I am (was) using it EXACTLY per the written instructions I showed in the OP. You might be right about something being amiss with the die itself. I have yet to try it on a cannelured bullet, but I will eventually.

[Captain*Kirk]

Do you have any neck tension? you mentioned being able to spin the bullet by hand.

Oddly enough, yes. I'm using standard RCBS carbide sizer and expander dies and trimming brass to SAAMI specs chamfer/deburr before expanding. None of the bullets seated with the RCBS RC die are loose, only the ones seated with the Lee FC die.
I suspect what the issue is, is that despite what I was told the FC die is *really* not designed to be used with plated bullets. Either that, or there is an issue with the die I have.

[Moleman-]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

[Captain*Kirk]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

I can do that tonight. Just so happens I have one of the loose bullets on the bench still.

[onelight]

I have no idea what is causing your problem but you have a defective die or you are doing something wrong ,there are lots of people use those dies with good results.

[Carrier]

Either the sizer ring of that die is too small, crimped insert is wrong or it’s not a 44 Remington mag die.

[Captain*Kirk]

I have no idea what is causing your problem but you have a defective die or you are doing something wrong ,there are lots of people use those dies with good results.

Unfortunately, I have no way to tell if I am doing something wrong as I am following the die instructions to the letter. I've used the Lee FCD on every one of my other calibers and never experienced an issue until now.
A couple things come to mind:
1) I'm using RCBS dies for sizing and expanding. Maybe the finish dimensions are different from the Lee die specs?
2) Possibly my expander is putting too much bellmouth on the cases and instead of rolling the case mouth it is hanging up on it and crushing the case as a result?

[onelight]

Unfortunately, I have no way to tell if I am doing something wrong as I am following the die instructions to the letter. I've used the Lee FCD on every one of my other calibers and never experienced an issue until now.
A couple things come to mind:
1) I'm using RCBS dies for sizing and expanding. Maybe the finish dimensions are different from the Lee die specs?
2) Possibly my expander is putting too much bellmouth on the cases and instead of rolling the case mouth it is hanging up on it and crushing the case as a result?
I use Lee factory crimp on autos cases but have not had the need in any revolver rounds I load for.
Certainly the flare might be the cause I read in one of my lee sets if the flare is to large to enter the crimp die to adjust the bullet seating die to remove enough flare so it can enter the factory crimp die , the point of the factory crimp is to return cartridge to factory specs on the last stage this requires a fairly tight base this is the main complaint on the dies , because many guns need a bigger cast bullet than these dies allow. In my limited experience they do that but are not always the best choice it’s great to have many choices.

[44magLeo]

I Have the Lee Carbide FCD that came in my Lee four die set. I found it didn't work so well with bulets over .430 as most factory jacketed bullets are.
My cast bullets for My Marlin 1894 are .432+ The carbide ring in that die is too small for large cast bullets. As the case come out of die the ring sizes the case small enough so that the bullet gets sized down too. When the brass springs back a bit, this leaves the bullet loose in the case.
I then bought Lee's Collet Crimp dies. Works much better.
I now use the Carbide FCD with out the crimp insert, just the body as a sizing die for the Marlin. I don't recall the measurements right now but it doesn't size quite as much as the regular Carbide size die. Works the brass a bit less.
Leo

[Captain*Kirk]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

FWIW:I check bullet diameter last night, mics out at .429 at the base. Just for snicks I took one of my prepped cases and inserted it into the FCD. Slips through the carbide ring all the way up to the crimp shoulder. So nothing still makes any sense. I have a few Hornady XTPs left with cannelure; I might try loading a dummy round and crimping with the FCD to see how it works on a cannelured bullet. If it works fine, I'll probably just use the FCD for bullets with a cannelure and continue roll crimping for plated bullets.
However, it still doesn't answer the question as to WHY this die doesn't work as advertised, especially since a number of you seem to be using it with plated bullets and have no issues.

If crimping the XTPs crushes the case, well...then I will consider it a defective die and sent it back to Lee.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Never had a problem using my Hornady titanium nitride dies in .44 mag, including the roll crimp regardless of case brand. I like a roll crimp on revolver cartridges.

[onelight]

FWIW:I check bullet diameter last night, mics out at .429 at the base. Just for snicks I took one of my prepped cases and inserted it into the FCD. Slips through the carbide ring all the way up to the crimp shoulder. So nothing still makes any sense. I have a few Hornady XTPs left with cannelure; I might try loading a dummy round and crimping with the FCD to see how it works on a cannelured bullet. If it works fine, I'll probably just use the FCD for bullets with a cannelure and continue roll crimping for plated bullets.
However, it still doesn't answer the question as to WHY this die doesn't work as advertised, especially since a number of you seem to be using it with plated bullets and have no issues.

If crimping the XTPs crushes the case, well...then I will consider it a defective die and sent it back to Lee.
It certainly does not to hurt to check it on an XTP but that die should work with plated cast unless several thousandths oversized or jacketed.
What does it do if you back off the crimp adjustment no crimp and run a round in and out of the die. You should wind up with a bullet tight in the case with no flare left and no crimp.
This should eliminate the floating crimper as part of the problem.
If it is good at this point run the case all the way back in the die and screw down the crimper till you feel it hit the case back the case out and screw the crimper down in small increments checking for crimp between each adjustment if the bullet crimp grove is shallow you can’t crimp much.
You might also adjust the crimp on the bullet seating die to remove most of the flare to make sure It enters the factory crimp die as it should .
If it won’t adjust for your bullets send it back it ain’t workin , maybe they will send you a regular roll crimp die.

[MT Chambers]

Totally unnecessary die, roll or taper crimp in separate operation from bullet seating, and don't fall for all the hype.

[onelight]

Here is a cutaway picture from the Lee catalog that shows the design of the factory crimp die , same die for 44 Russian 44spec. and 44 mag. It you can adjust for crimp on 44 Russian , you could probably with the crimp drastically over adjusted for 44 mag push most if not all of the bullet in a mag case through the crimp.
239825
If the crimping part of the die floats lose in the die and became seized in the wrong spot it could do the same.

[Taterhead]

Does the bullet spin freely before crimping? If it does, the crimp die cannot fix poor neck tension. Either the expander shank is too large vis-a-vis the bullet diameter or the sizer is not small enough.

If the bullet seats snugly, then it is getting messed up in the crimping operation.

I did not notice if it is a collet style FCD or the Carbide FCD. Two very different tools with confusingly similar names. If the carbide variety: as stated earlier, the carbide post sizing ring can wreck neck tension by swaging the bullet. As can excessive crimp, as evidenced by the bulged cases. The latter is true of most any crimping die.

As an owner of a couple of carbide FCDs, I see no advantage whatsoever in that tool, except that the finger adjustment is nice. I see the post sizing ring more as a bug than a feature.

[Captain*Kirk]

Does the bullet spin freely before crimping? If it does, the crimp die cannot fix poor neck tension. Either the expander shank is too large vis-a-vis the bullet diameter or the sizer is not small enough.

In a word, no.



I did not notice if it is a collet style FCD or the Carbide FCD. Two very different tools with confusingly similar names. If the carbide variety: as stated earlier, the carbide post sizing ring can wreck neck tension by swaging the bullet. As can excessive crimp, as evidenced by the bulged cases. The latter is true of most any crimping die.

It's the carbide FCD. In fact, I was rather disappointed when I got it, as I was expecting a collet-type FCD like all my rifle dies are...which, BTW, make a very nice and secure crimp.



As an owner of a couple of carbide FCDs, I see no advantage whatsoever in that tool, except that the finger adjustment is nice. I see the post sizing ring more as a bug than a feature.

I would tend to agree with you. Since 90% of my .44 mag shooting is at the range using reduced powder charges and plated bullets, I've pretty much decided the standard roll crimp is completely satisfactory and the FCD offers no improvement as it too, is apparently a roll crimp die. It *might* serve a better purpose when loading 240gr JHP (Hornady XTP's; with a cannelure) but for now, I've pretty much determined I'll stick with the standard RC die rather than risk destroying any more cases than I already have by trying to utilize the Lee FCD, which as you say, is mostly useless in this instance.

[onelight]

This thread has me curious , I was getting ready to order another set of 38/357 dies so I ordered the Lee 4 die set that comes with the factory crimp die . I prefer to crimp separate from seating , and for revolvers have always just roll crimped. I think I can entertain myself and try the factory crimp with cast , plated and jacketed pull the bullets and see how the measurements compare to bullet diameters before and after loading.
I have seen reports here that they size carefully set up cast bullets to small but have not seen any reports on plated or jacketed.

[Captain*Kirk]

Good luck, hope you have better results than I did!

[Carrier]

Good luck, hope you have better results than I did!

Are you going to send it back to Lee? Really would like to know what the issue is. I use the FCD for all my revolvers calibers and have never seen this.

[onelight]

Good luck, hope you have better results than I did!


Thanks , don’t know that I will like it , just curious , I have never had one for revolvers cause I did not see how it would improve anything for me and some of my cast I use diameters larger than standard Jacketed bullets .

[Captain*Kirk]

Are you going to send it back to Lee? Really would like to know what the issue is. I use the FCD for all my revolvers calibers and have never seen this.

Not unless I have an issue with it on cannelured bullets. I really don't need the FCD for plated bullets I guess, the standard RC is working fine. The die was only $18.00...it will cost me half that to send it back to Lee. Not worth the time, effort or $$

[TheDoctor]

What will probably do you well is a Lee collet crimp die.

[Captain*Kirk]

What will probably do you well is a Lee collet crimp die.

That's what I thought I was getting when I ordered it. However, the collet die is NOT available in carbide, so that would mean lubing the cartridges before crimping.

[Moleman-]

That's what I thought I was getting when I ordered it. However, the collet die is NOT available in carbide, so that would mean lubing the cartridges before crimping.

Why would you lube cases to crimp them?

[mdi]

When I was new to reloading I wanted to see how much my die was crimping. I ran an empty sized, flared case through the crimp die to see how much the case mouth was being formed. I could see where I was, sorta a "starting point"...

I really don't care what dies an experienced reloader uses, but I do object to telling a new reloader that they should hide their mistakes with a Lee FCD for handgun cartridges. I normally suggest they find out what is causing their problems (chambering and bulging) and fix it. Most of the time it's just a matter of die adjustment. I tried an FCD for handgun ammo, and it now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon. In 35+ years of reloading revolver and semi-auto ammo I have never had to size a cartridge after it was crimped. When I had a problem, I found out why it was happening, and fixed it...

[mdi]

That's what I thought I was getting when I ordered it. However, the collet die is NOT available in carbide, so that would mean lubing the cartridges before crimping.

Nope, no lube needed...

[Moleman-]

I bought a .357 one to try out as an option for a semiauto as it was supposed to have a taper crimp...but it's basically a modified roll crimp. I tried it on a few rounds and took a cerro cast of the "taper crimp" section to confirm that. Then it was put on a shelf. Might use the die body to hold an expander stem for case forming but won't use it for it's intended purpose and I won't be buying any more. Like MDI I think it's a band aid for improperly set up dies.

[onelight]

I bought a .357 one to try out as an option for a semiauto as it was supposed to have a taper crimp...but it's basically a modified roll crimp. I tried it on a few rounds and took a cerro cast of the "taper crimp" section to confirm that. Then it was put on a shelf. Might use the die body to hold an expander stem for case forming but won't use it for it's intended purpose and I won't be buying any more. Like MDI I think it's a band aid for improperly set up dies.
I just got a 38/357 set but have not used it yet. One of my shooting buddies said that the revolver dies will taper crimp and with more adjustment roll crimp. I don’t know how much he knows about reloading but he is a really good shot.:-P

[Moleman-]

Onelight, the taper crimp they make is very abrupt. Take a look at post 10 and compare a standard Lee 357 die I got around 1990, the cfcd from a year ago or so and the Lyman taper crimp die.

[onelight]

Nice castings.
I can’t tell from the picture does it actually put a taper crimp before you get to the roll crimp or just the roll crimp ?
Thanks

[Captain*Kirk]

Yeah, you're correct about not needing lube for a crimp die...brain freeze, I think, LOL. The only reason I "thought" I needed a FCD in the first place was some internet guru pontificating about how you shouldn't used a roll crimp with plated bullets. He was obviously wrong, as I got it straight from Berry's tech support that a light roll crimp is preferred over a taper crimp or collet crimp and I should have just kept doing what I was doing all along. BTW, I've loaded and fired many hundreds of these using the RC and they work just fine

[Moleman-]

Nice castings.
I can’t tell from the picture does it actually put a taper crimp before you get to the roll crimp or just the roll crimp ?
Thanks

Just a roll type crimp. The standard lee on the left has no taper over the straight section before getting to the beveled reduction and neither does the much shorter button on the CFCD. The CFCD sort of looks like the bottom section might be tapered because there is a slight lip on the casting that gives the it the appearance that the bottom is larger/tapered. I set the button down on a piece of flat steel and made the pour. The lip is the metal the tried to leak out between the button and the plate it was sitting on. With the fuzzyness of the picture and shadow it does look tapered before the beveled section, but it is straight.

I like the Lyman taper crimp dies and use them where a taper crimp is required.

[Walks]

Most of my Taper Crimp dies are C&H as they offered a deal in HANDLOADER Mag about 35+yrs ago, 4 for $20. I bought 8 dies, most all for auto-loading cartridges.

Didn't use them for revolver cartridges until I started loading for Cowboy Shooting. Then I bought them from Lyman & Redding for .38/357 & .44spl, .45Colt. They worked extremly well in my Hornady Pro-Jector.

When the Lee FCD came out all the Cowboy Shooter's I knew raved about them for .44WCF and .38WCF, they all claimed how fantastic they were.

Well not for me. I tried one in .44WCF, leaded the heck out of my bbl. The die was squeezing down my bullets to make them undersized. Adjusted per instructions. Lee Tech Line was no help. I gave up on them and went back to crimping with my 55+yr old Lyman Die Set.

A good old fashioned roll crimp over the top of the front driving band. And I've never had a bullet forced back into the case in a rifle mag tube or move forward in a revolver cylinder.

Just use the right die for the right Bullet/Load combo.

[onelight]

I got a chance to mess with Lee 4 die 38/357 die set I just got . I resized 38 brass ran it through the neck expander flare powder die ( did not prime or drop powder ) then to the bullet seating die.
The crimp from the bullet seating die is close to a taper crimp , I would like it with jacketed bullets but prefer a heavier roll for cast.
The factory crimp revolver die performs differently than the FCD for auto rounds. With the auto FCD you can feel the bottom sizer bump over the bullet as the cartridge enters and exits the die.
On the revolver FCD the size ring is more of a bulge buster (I can push an unsized fired case in by hand) so the lower ring would do nothing unless I bulged a case with some error seating a bullet.
If I mess up a case or bullet I want to cull it not fix it so it will chamber , but we all get to choose .
The roll crimp is not as pronounced as I get from RCBS Lyman or Hornady dies but at this point I cant say it would be better or worse just different. One thing to note the floating crimp ring can be placed in the die upside down and that would certainly change crimp results .
Here are four cases with bullets seated and crimped the two on the left were crimped in the seating die the two on the right with the FCD , I hope you can see the crimp in the pic.
240136

[Carrier]

I got a chance to mess with Lee 4 die 38/357 die set I just got . I resized 38 brass ran it through the neck expander flare powder die ( did not prime or drop powder ) then to the bullet seating die.
The crimp from the bullet seating die is close to a taper crimp , I would like it with jacketed bullets but prefer a heavier roll for cast.
The factory crimp revolver die performs differently than the FCD for auto rounds. With the auto FCD you can feel the bottom sizer bump over the bullet as the cartridge enters and exits the die.
On the revolver FCD the size ring is more of a bulge buster (I can push an unsized fired case in by hand) so the lower ring would do nothing unless I bulged a case with some error seating a bullet.
If I mess up a case or bullet I want to cull it not fix it so it will chamber , but we all get to choose .
The roll crimp is not as pronounced as I get from RCBS Lyman or Hornady dies but at this point I cant say it would be better or worse just different. One thing to note the floating crimp ring can be placed in the die upside down and that would certainly change crimp results .
Here are four cases with bullets seated and crimped the two on the left were crimped in the seating die the two on the right with the FCD , I hope you can see the crimp in the pic.
240136

Good post.