Getting accuracy out of conicals

[brewer12345]

I had my first range session with the new to me TC Hawken in .50 cal on Saturday. Got used to packing loads and god decent accuracy with patched balls, but the two or 3 conicals I shot seemed a little more squirrely. I have some REALs in 250 and 320 grains, as well as some TC Maxiballs at 370 grains. It was hard not to deform the noses a bit, and I did not realize that for many people using a wad is a key component of success. Any tips for getting accuracy with conicals? I picked up some wads today. What charge would you start with? This is for a percussion rifle with a 1 in 48 twist.

[yeahbub]

A trick I learned was to cloth-patch the base driving band on REAL's and Maxi's. I couldn't get accuracy I could trust until a fellow shooter suggested doing so. It made quite a difference.

[arcticap]

A trick I learned was to cloth-patch the base driving band on REAL's and Maxi's. I couldn't get accuracy I could trust until a fellow shooter suggested doing so. It made quite a difference.

It must be a very thin patch such as a .005 perhaps?

[bob208]

the only way to get them to shoot is to start them straight the same way every time. the only way I know to do that is with a false muzzle.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Dead soft lead is a must with maxi balls.
I always did better with patched round balls. Much less recoil too. Through and through on deer.

[Walks]

I've had a .54 Cal T/C Hawken for 30 odd years. I think my T/C mold will drop a 425gr Maxi-Ball. I lube using either T/C Bore Butter or Crisco.

I'm able to push a MAXI straight down into the Muzzle with my thumb. It shoots straight into 3+inches at 100yrds over 90grs of 2F Swiss Powder. With the Factory iron sights.

But it's a heck of a lot easier with a short starter. However the Short Starter can't always be hit straight on.

Or at least I could before arthritis set in.

[arcticap]

Usually the slower the twist rate, the shorter the conicals need to be in order to shoot accurately.
In most cases, shorter bullets means lighter weight bullets.
It's often better to shoot conicals that are lighter weight and short than bullets that are too long and heavy to stabilize.
Of course this is only a generalization since any bullet can possibly shoot well with any twist.
Sometimes it depends on the size of the powder charge which affects the RPM's of the bullets when fired.
The same rule often applies to bullets fired with sabots which can offer a greater variety of bullet weights, some as light as 225 grains or less.
For instance MMP sells .50 sabots that allow either .44 or .45 bullets to be loaded of which there are some light weight ones to choose from.--->>> https://mmpsabots.com

The old 245-250 grain Buffalo Ball-ets would shoot close to the point of aim of a .50 patched round ball.
Since Buffalo Bullets moved to Nevada, people have been waiting for them to restart Ball-et production.--->>> https://buffalobulletindustries.com

The Hornady Pennsylvania .50 Conical that weighs 240 grains is very similar to the Buffalo Ball-ets and works with a variety of twist rates from fast to slow.
It has a lot of favorable reviews on the MidwayUSA website.--->>> https://www.midwayusa.com/product/730932/hornady-pennsylvania-conical-muzzleloading-bullets-50-caliber-512-diameter-240-grain-box-of-50

[brewer12345]

Frankly, I would be perfectly happy to stick with a round ball, but I am expecting to get a cow elk tag this year and my state requires a conical for elk in 50 cal. That being the case, I need to figure out a conical of some sort.

In part, I think I just need more range time with the front stuffer. I will investigate the 240 grain Hornady conical if I can't get any of the ones I have handy to work. I suppose I could always buy one of the stoopid expensive jacketed or all copper conicals, but I would really rather use a cast projectile.

[dk17hmr]

My 54 has gotten noticeably more accurate with taper sizing my conicals and using an over powder wad.

Are you using pure lead?

[brewer12345]

The conical I have I traded for with another member who told me they are pure.

[Good Cheer]

The entries above tell the tale.
It's always a matter of how the bullet diameter(s) fit the barrel.
Typically you need a close fit. And to load straight without a false muzzle the bullet also has to be of a design that does load straight without a false muzzle.
And you probably have to prevent excessive gas cutting somehow (usually close fit, soft metal and maybe some kind of card or wad).

But if what you're after is just killing something then any shape of some metal that pokes the hole OK will work.
Me myself I love muzzleloading and have fast twists and slow twists... but none of them agree with each other.

[Good Cheer]

With the molds in the toy box I'd really like to have a medium twist .41 bore rifle to use various .41 mag molds and .403 round ball.
239579

But I spent my stash of happy cash on a .41 mag single shot instead.:rolleyes:

[charlie b]

My Lyman GPH is a faster twist with shallow grooves but it does much better with bullets sized to the bore dia (in my case .502). I prefer the Hornady Great Plains bullets, but, again, I size them to the bore and put a veggie wad, then lubed felt wad, then the bullet. FYI, those bullets have a forward band that is designed to engrave to the grooves, but, I had little luck using them that way. I do find they take quite a bit of powder to properly upset on firing (the force of the powder shoves hard enough to make the bullet expand into the grooves). Mine shoots best with 100gn.

My preferred method is paper patching, but, some find that a bit too involved.

With the 1/48 twist you need a bit shorter bullet to stabilize well.

One thing I would recommend is that you use really soft lead. I have had really bad luck with wheel weight bullets in front stuffers.

[Good Cheer]

Was just thinking on something...

If a fella was to have an old Lyman 445599 minie mold it could be pretty easy to have it modified to cast about .045 to .050 larger in diameter for a paper patched smooth sided hollow base minie of 300+ grains.
The skirt would be a little thicker to take higher pressures.
And the thicker skirt could let you seal off deeper rifling.
And it could be it would shoot well in slower twist .50 caliber rifles.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I would suggest 70 to 80gr 2f or 3f Goex / Pyrodex RS - Pyrodex P. The 250 & 320gr REAL bullets shoot fantastic in my rifles, but I first have to use a lightly lubed felt wad behind the conical.

Another great bullet for these guns is the 370gr Maxiball & 385gr hornady great plains bullet with the same loads above.

I just hope your hawken does not have that false bore QLA **** at the end.

Also make sure all your tang screws and wedge key are snug. Loose tang screws play hell on accuracy.

[brewer12345]

I think I will be trying the was on conicals and see what happens. I was fiddling with the sights today and realized the front sight was knocked all the way to one side. Sorted that out and used a laser to get things lined back up.

Hoping to get to the range tomorrow to try again. At least I know that it works and will shoot round balls. Guessing conical are just a matter of figuring out what works. Once I get it right, I will cast up a bunch.

[hc18flyer]

Usually the slower the twist rate, the shorter the conicals need to be in order to shoot accurately.
In most cases, shorter bullets means lighter weight bullets.
It's often better to shoot conicals that are lighter weight and short than bullets that are too long and heavy to stabilize.
Of course this is only a generalization since any bullet can possibly shoot well with any twist.
Sometimes it depends on the size of the powder charge which affects the RPM's of the bullets when fired.
The same rule often applies to bullets fired with sabots which can offer a greater variety of bullet weights, some as light as 225 grains or less.
For instance MMP sells .50 sabots that allow either .44 or .45 bullets to be loaded of which there are some light weight ones to choose from.--->>> https://mmpsabots.com

The old 245-250 grain Buffalo Ball-ets would shoot close to the point of aim of a .50 patched round ball.
Since Buffalo Bullets moved to Nevada, people have been waiting for them to restart Ball-et production.--->>> https://buffalobulletindustries.com

The Hornady Pennsylvania .50 Conical that weighs 240 grains is very similar to the Buffalo Ball-ets and works with a variety of twist rates from fast to slow.
It has a lot of favorable reviews on the MidwayUSA website.--->>> https://www.midwayusa.com/product/730932/hornady-pennsylvania-conical-muzzleloading-bullets-50-caliber-512-diameter-240-grain-box-of-50

I too am a 'Ball-et' fan. My Lyman Great Plains with its 1 in 66 twist, shot them very well. At my tree stand ranges, round ball is acceptable too. For anything bigger then deer with a .50 cal, would want a conical. hc18flyer

[OverMax]

Looking to shoot conical having modern like accuracy with a antiquated side lock design. "Twist-rate does make a difference."
1-32 is preferenced.

As for powder charge:
370 gr. T/c Maxi Ball cast: 70 to 100 grs of 2-ffg is factory suggested charging's.
250 & 320 grain REALS? There a projectile I have no experience in using.

[brewer12345]

Heh, I have no illusions about modern accuracy. That said, If I can get a 3 or 4 inch group at 75 or 100 yards, it will do. The vitals on an elk are a good sized target.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

some like to complicate things as we can see :D

Follow my advice with the projectiles mentioned and you'll find something in there thats accurate.

My elk load now since the rule change is 80gr 3fg goex or pyrodex p, lubed wad and a 250gr REAL. In my Traditions St.Louis Hawken with 1:48 twist, I can keep them under 2" at 100 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

some like to complicate things as we can see :D

Follow my advice with the projectiles mentioned and you'll find something in there thats accurate.

My elk load now since the rule change is 80gr 3fg goex or pyrodex p, lubed wad and a 250gr REAL. In my Traditions St.Louis Hawken with 1:48 twist, I can keep them under 2" at 100 yards.

Do you lube the bullets themselves too?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Yes I do.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/04/51/92/img_9710.jpg

[yeahbub]

It must be a very thin patch such as a .005 perhaps?

That's correct. It wasn't the awning canvas I use for a RB. That will work for the narrow and undersized base band on a REAL (less engagement length than the curvature on a RB), but I went with a somewhat thinner pillow ticking because it was easier and just as accurate. For a maxi it was a high thread count cotton bed sheet material. In both cases, I used a boolit board for convenience so I wouldn't have to deal with all the tedium in the field. I also tried paper patching after running the REALs through a sizer and they worked really well - from a clean barrel. Once I realized I'd have to wet-patch twice and dry to get the barrel clean enough to load the next one without damage, thoughts of hunting with them lost their luster. A cloth patched base band and grooves slathered with bore butter in a board is field practical.

[charlie b]

When sized correctly for the bore I can shoot quite a few times between swabbing with PP bullets. Usually I limit it to 5 rounds. A key for me is the veggie wad. It is stiff enough that it pushes a lot of the crud down the barrel before the bullet goes in. But, the same holds true for lubed conicals as well since I use them with a veggie wad as well.

[kens]

I have a .50 cal 1:48 twist rifle. the 48 twist is too fast for really good round ball accuracy, and too slow for really good heavy conicals, it is an in-between twist rate that stabilizes either RB or conical but neither one very well.
I found the best load is a .45acp bullet in a 45/50 sabot. keep it light like 185/200/230gr bullet was best for me. the Lee .45-200RF does nice for me. (lightweight conical)

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I've shot up to 460 grains with a 1:48 and excellent 100 yard results.

1:48 twist @ 100 yards with patched round ball from a traditions st.louis hawken. Black bulls eye is 1 1/2" diameter for size comparison.
https://i.postimg.cc/4xmNJmBq/IMG-9213.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[brewer12345]

Well I got to the range today and the wad did the job. The smaller real bullet did ok with 60 grains of black mz. The 370 grain maxi ball did even better with 80 grains. I need to cast a bunch and experiment with the maxi, but this will be my hunting bullet.

How do people lube the maxis? We just smeared some bore butter on them, but it would be a lot easier to pre lube them if it didn't melt in summer temps.

[Camper64]

I pan lube mine with bee's wax and olive oil. 50/50.

[brewer12345]

I read online about someone mixing beeswax and bore butter, then dipping up through the lube groove and setting the to dry on wax paper. Sounds plausible?

[Hickok]

I always had improved grouping with T/C Hawkins and Civil-War era Enfield .58 muskets after glass bedding the stock/barrel channel solid the entire length. Stopped the flyers and the shooting groups with 2-3 shots together, and then 2-3 shots a couple of inches away in their own separate little group, I.E., getting two separate groups slightly apart from each other with the same aiming point.

[taco650]

When sized correctly for the bore I can shoot quite a few times between swabbing with PP bullets. Usually I limit it to 5 rounds. A key for me is the veggie wad. It is stiff enough that it pushes a lot of the crud down the barrel before the bullet goes in. But, the same holds true for lubed conicals as well since I use them with a veggie wad as well.


Sorry for my ignorance but can you please explain what a "veggie wad" is or made of? Thanks.

[Ozark mike]

Usually a felt type wad in this case jute soaked with BP lube of your choice

[arcticap]

Cabela's used to sell them labeled as vegetable fiber wads.
They're not as thick or expensive as wool wads.
The vegetable fiber material is also sold in bulk roll form.
Buffalo Arms sells them as "Vegetable Fiber Walters Wads" which cost $20 for a bag of 1000.--->>> https://www.buffaloarms.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=vegetable%2520wads

[charlie b]

Veggie wads are not felt. They are a card made with vegetable fiber, kinda like gasket material. I load the lubed felt wad on top of that to provide lube to keep the fouling softer.

I get mine at Buffalo Arms Co

https://www.buffaloarms.com/50-caliber-030-512-vegetable-fiber-walters-wads-bag-of-1000-wal512030

[Ozark mike]

I could of sworn they had a jute wad that was similar to a flexible type thicker than .125 maybe I'm thinking of something else

[arcticap]

I could of sworn they had a jute wad that was similar to a flexible type thicker than .125 maybe I'm thinking of something else

I wonder if it's those thick fiber shotgun wads that are made from jute.
Depending on the maker, those seem to be quite fibrous and also easy to split apart.

[koger]

i have hunted with TC Hawkens in 54 and Renegade in .50 and .54, exclusively with Maxi ball types, including the TC varities, and the Hornady Great plains boolits, along with the Lyman in both calibers. I have taken around 50 deer with them at ranges from 35-185 yds. I finally sold all my molds except for the Lyman in .50-390 grs and .54-450 grs. All my rifles with 1-48 shoot great with these bullets, with scopes they will cut cloverleafs at 100yds, from a bench. They all shot slightly better with a veg fiber wad lubricated, but not a must have. The charges mentioned above, are all to light, from my findings. With a .50 I shoot 90-95grs 2ffg, with the nod going to 95grs. For the .54 I settled on 105 grains. I went up and down the whole spectrum of powder charges, and the hotter loads, shot the best, I assume because of upsetting the bullet better, or makin the bullet fill the lands better due to the hotter loading. This info was gleaned from time at the bench and afield, and a lot of powder burned, hope this helps.

[LAGS]

I would think that some kind of wad will do the sealing, and the boolit will not be expanding because of the cushioning effect of the wad.
But I could be wrong.
Maybe we need to test the loads into a deep water source and look at the fired boolit.
Dang,
I don't have access to the police Crime lab I built years ago.
That would have been the perfect place to test the boolits.
But I don't think they would let me fire BP inside the building.

[arcticap]

Personally I think that it has to with the twist rate, the higher velocity increases the RPM's of the bullet which helps to stabilize it.
A consistent velocity helps to provide a consistent point of impact.
But some barrels and bullets shoot better than others.

[Good Cheer]

Too bad there aren't many .50 minie molds on the market.
If there were I'd probably have picked up a GPH for a plinker.

[taco650]

i have hunted with TC Hawkens in 54 and Renegade in .50 and .54, exclusively with Maxi ball types, including the TC varities, and the Hornady Great plains boolits, along with the Lyman in both calibers. I have taken around 50 deer with them at ranges from 35-185 yds. I finally sold all my molds except for the Lyman in .50-390 grs and .54-450 grs. All my rifles with 1-48 shoot great with these bullets, with scopes they will cut cloverleafs at 100yds, from a bench. They all shot slightly better with a veg fiber wad lubricated, but not a must have. The charges mentioned above, are all to light, from my findings. With a .50 I shoot 90-95grs 2ffg, with the nod going to 95grs. For the .54 I settled on 105 grains. I went up and down the whole spectrum of powder charges, and the hotter loads, shot the best, I assume because of upsetting the bullet better, or makin the bullet fill the lands better due to the hotter loading. This info was gleaned from time at the bench and afield, and a lot of powder burned, hope this helps.

Thanks, it does! Sounds like more time on the range which is good thing IMO!! ����

[charlie b]

I would think that some kind of wad will do the sealing, and the boolit will not be expanding because of the cushioning effect of the wad.
But I could be wrong.
Maybe we need to test the loads into a deep water source and look at the fired boolit.
Dang,
I don't have access to the police Crime lab I built years ago.
That would have been the perfect place to test the boolits.
But I don't think they would let me fire BP inside the building.

Well, I did recover some bullets fired at 100 yd. 450gn PP bullets. 80gn Pyrodex Select, Veggie card wad, Oxyoke lubed felt wad (about 1/8" thick) and bullet. I load the powder and set the veggie card wad, ram it down tightly on the powder. Then the felt wad and bullet. Those two slide down the bore with just the weight of the rod. Bullet is seated with very light pressure. After the bullet was recovered I found that the rifling was marked on the bullets, despite the paper patch. So, the felt wad does not really 'cushion' the bullet and it definitely does not prevent the bullet from being upset into the grooves.

Sorry, I don't have pictures.

PS there is a minimum powder load to get the upset necessary. You have to experiment to find out what works the best. When I used Hornady Great Plains bullets (385gn, lubed and sized to .501, bore is .502) they liked 100gn best. After digging them out of the backstop they looked just like a cast bullet fired from a breechloader.

PPS my rifle is the Lyman GP Hunter, 1:32 twist. The 450gn are marginal stability unless pushed hard.

[Good Cheer]

I never tried conicals but some of the most frustrating barrels to shoot boolits in has been the Green Mountain .40 calibers with a 48" twist.
The GM .50 and .54 barrels worked fine but the .40's are heart breakers. Ran tests with a hollow base design, with .41 caliber revolver boolits, with paper patched...
There would be some good results (eureka!) and then the inconsistencies would show up. Finally concluded that it becomes an almost insurmountable difficulty as the bore size decreases and the rifling groove depth does not. Second part is that for .40 caliber the 48" twist is by ratio very slow as opposed to having a 48" twist in a .50 or .54 such as is so common from the famous Hawken Brothers and coming forwards in time through Spain and Italy. So any way, looking back it really was fun and after experimenting with 16" twist and 48" twist in .40 caliber rifles I'd really love to have some twist in between!
[smilie=l:

[Good Cheer]

Was looking through notes from 2011...
The Lee .41 SWC 195 grain was giving 2" groups at 50 yards (light weight boolits make it difficult to get consistent expansion into the rifling).
The deeper the rifling is the more inertia the boolit needs to have to get the lead base to spread out. Oh but wait, the twist is too slow to be shooting a heavier boolit...
And so it goes.

Got no doubt there's a design that will work well in the GM .40 barrels, something like a REAL but with a hollow base.

[megasupermagnum]

I finally had promising results today. I was shooting two conicals, the Lee REAL and the TC maxiball, both from a 1:48 twist 54 caliber renegade with peep sights. I had been using felt wads in the past, today I was using .070" 28 gauge nitro cards under the bullet. Both bullets I lubed by hand with bore butter. It's too early to call it, but the maxiballs shot into about 4" at 80 yards, and the REAL's into about 3". I forgot patches to swab between shots, so just loaded a dirty bore. The maxiballs I bought from October country, and they are junk castings. I'll be calling them, they are very bad. I picked out 6 acceptable ones out of the 20 they sent me. They still shot decent though, so who knows what a good cast maxiball would do.

I think the key in my case was more powder. Either they obturate better or they stabilize better, or both. At 70 grains they don't shoot for squat. I shot the maxiballs to 100 grains, and the REAL's to 110 grains. I may be willing to try up to 120 grains if accuracy continues to get better.

Besides higher powder charges, I also made two other changes. One, I was using Goex Old Eynsford FF, rather than Goex red bottle FF. I doubt this made a huge difference at the 80 yards I was shooting, but the stuff seems stronger than red bottle. The other change was on the REAL bullets, I beagled the mold. I've tried them in the past cast of pure lead, 40:1, and 20:1. None ever seemed a good fit in the bore, even casting WAY hotter than needed. Finally I beagled the mold, and cast them of 40:1, beagling made all the difference in the world. They don't load hard at all, but before they would just fall down the barrel once engraved. Now they might take 5 pounds of pressure.

[taco650]

Thanks for posting your results. If I can’t get my T/C Hawken barrel in .50 to RB’s good enough, I’ll start trying conicals. Did you try 3f with either of those bullets?

[megasupermagnum]

No. What would be a safe maximum of FFF in a 54 caliber? 90 grains?

[725]

Follow published data from the manufacturer for loading. Some use FFFg in .54 but it seems too fast for me.

[arcticap]

No. What would be a safe maximum of FFF in a 54 caliber? 90 grains?

Here's a TC Sidelock owner's manual with suggested loads at the end for balls, conicals and sabots.--->>> http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

120 grains of FFg is max. for balls and conicals.
110-120 grains of FFg for sabots depending on bullet weight.

A person would reduce FFFg loads by 10% to equal FFg.

[megasupermagnum]

Where did you come up with the 10% figure? From what I'm seeing, it's more around 20% based on velocity. I'm sure FFFg is plenty safe used in reasonable amounts, but I don't see a good reason to try it with conicals. If I were to try it in a 54 caliber, it would be for round balls. If anything, I was thinking of trying the Fg Swiss powder I've only tried a couple shots of.

[arcticap]

Where did you come up with the 10% figure? From what I'm seeing, it's more around 20% based on velocity. I'm sure FFFg is plenty safe used in reasonable amounts, but I don't see a good reason to try it with conicals. If I were to try it in a 54 caliber, it would be for round balls. If anything, I was thinking of trying the Fg Swiss powder I've only tried a couple shots of.

Look at the 3rd velocity chart for .54 caliber loads plotted for Goex 2F & 3F and it shows less than a 10% velocity difference for Goex round ball loads of 40 - 120 grains.--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/powder-loads-and-velocities.40427/

Notice that the Lyman chart provides data for a load of 120 grains of 3F Goex with a .54 patched round ball and it's less than 10% faster than 2F Goex.

Yes, there can be a difference for conicals but I was only providing you with the "rule of thumb" for powder reduction.
Also, Swiss powder is 11% denser by volume than Goex, so the amount of reduction could be double or 20%.

I'm not advocating maximum powder loads or recommending how much anyone should load.
You asked a generic question: "What would be a safe maximum of FFF in a 54 caliber? 90 grains?"

I simply provided the generic answer which is based on the Lyman Black Powder Handbook velocity data.

There's more info. to be found about shooting different .54 conicals but most only list 2F.
Maybe someone who has the Handbook can list more specific 3F info. for .54 if you need it.

Here's another thread with some .54 conical data for a Knight .54.--->>> https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/95534-black-powder-pressures-velocity-chart.html

[megasupermagnum]

Well the first link doesn't list powder charges. Assuming each point is 10 grains, and max is 120 grains, I can extrapolate. It looks like FFFg provides similar velocity with 20 grains less powder than FFg. The second link is more telling. With 80 grains of FFFg, the load provides 1300 fps, and 11,800 PSI. The same bullet with 110 grains FFg provides 1430 fps and 11,700 psi. That's a 27% drop in charge with the same pressure, and a significant drop in velocity.

This isn't to start an argument, but it looks like my original guess of 90 grains is closer than I realized.

[arcticap]

Well the first link doesn't list powder charges. Assuming each point is 10 grains, and max is 120 grains, I can extrapolate. It looks like FFFg provides similar velocity with 20 grains less powder than FFg. The second link is more telling. With 80 grains of FFFg, the load provides 1300 fps, and 11,800 PSI. The same bullet with 110 grains FFg provides 1430 fps and 11,700 psi. That's a 27% drop in charge with the same pressure, and a significant drop in velocity.

This isn't to start an argument, but it looks like my original guess of 90 grains is closer than I realized.


Please check your math.
The chart shows that the velocity for 120 grains of Goex 3F is approx. 1780 FPS and for 2F approx. 1680 FPS which is a difference of 9.4%.

There are some lesser velocity differences between the other .54 Goex powder loads.
It's not about pressure since the pressures are all "safe".
120 grains of Goex 3F can be a safe round ball load if a person wants to shoot them.
But who would want to?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

never trust in charts. Do the chronographing yourself and see actual results.

[megasupermagnum]

Please check your math.
The chart shows that the velocity for 120 grains of Goex 3F is approx. 1780 FPS and for 2F approx. 1680 FPS which is a difference of 9.4%.

There are some lesser velocity differences between the other .54 Goex powder loads.
It's not about pressure since the pressures are all "safe".
120 grains of Goex 3F can be a safe round ball load if a person wants to shoot them.
But who would want to?

See, I don't agree with that at all. If 120 grains of FFg black powder is the safe maximum with most loads, why on earth would 108 grains (10% reduction) of FFFg, which is most certainly a higher pressure, be safe? If it is safe, then why isn't the safe maximum of FFg higher? Velocity is an indicator of pressure, but matching FFg velocities with FFFg powder seems outright foolish. That's no different than trying to match 2400 velocities with Bullseye.

I double checked my math. 120 gr FFg is listed at about 1675ish FPS. Assuming each point is 10 grains, 100 grains of FFFg is 1675ish FPS. That's a reduction of 17%, and is still most certainly higher pressure than FFg.

After seeing this data, I'm going to a rule of 25% myself.

[arcticap]

I did make an error by overstating how much faster 3F is than 2F for 120 grains of Goex.

It's only about 6% faster with that 120 grain load and not 9.4%.

2F is 94.38 % as fast as 3F [with the velocity of 3F being 100%].

And the velocity of 3F is 105.95% above that of 2F [with the velocity of 2F being 100%]

That percentage represents about a 7.2 grain powder difference out of a 120 grain Goex load.
While using a flat 10% would be a difference of 12 grains of powder.

"If you want to know what percent A is of B, you simply divide A by B, then take that number and move the decimal place two spaces to the right.
That's your percentage!
To use the calculator, enter two numbers to calculate the percentage the first is of the second by clicking Calculate Percentage."--->>> http://www.csgnetwork.com/csgpercent.html


The percentages could change for other loads depending on their charted velocities.
.

[Edward]

Please check your math.
The chart shows that the velocity for 120 grains of Goex 3F is approx. 1780 FPS and for 2F approx. 1680 FPS which is a difference of 9.4%.

There are some lesser velocity differences between the other .54 Goex powder loads.
It's not about pressure since the pressures are all "safe".
120 grains of Goex 3F can be a safe round ball load if a person wants to shoot them.
But who would want to?

Start at 90 gr of OE 3F I did in my 54 and shoots fine,let the gun tell you when accuracy peaks(or your shoulder)but 120 works /just sayin

[brewer12345]

So I spent the morning fooling around with maxi balls, pyrodex select, and black mz. After a lot of shooting, I found this rifle hates pyrodex. Couldn't do better than 4 or 5 inches at 50 yards. I gave up and tried black mz. Lo and behold, 100 grains put the shots at an inch and a half at 50 yards and on a pie plate at 100. I was avoiding this powder because it is supposed to be less energetic, but its hard to argue with accuracy. Sound ok for a hunting load?

[Edward]

OE 2F sounds much better

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Its about 200 fps slower than pyrodex. You'd probably get good accuracy if you would drop it down to 80gr.

[brewer12345]

Its about 200 fps slower than pyrodex. You'd probably get good accuracy if you would drop it down to 80gr.

That is actually where I started. Nothing from 70 to 100 grains of pyrodex shot better than 4 or 5 inches at 50 yards. I am actually happy with the results I got with black mz. It ignites easily, works well with my rifle, and unlike real black powder I can actually buy it locally (for $10 a pound to boot). I may order a pound of goex when I put in my next hazmat order, but if this load packs enough wallop I have no reason to do anything else. It also does well with PRB from 50 to 70 grains (haven't gone higher).

[megasupermagnum]

Same as brewer12345, everything 80 grains and lower shot horrible. As in, not even on paper. At 90 grains things got significantly better, 100 grains better, and 110 better yet.

[megasupermagnum]

I did make an error by overstating how much faster 3F is than 2F for 120 grains of Goex.

It's only about 6% faster with that 120 grain load and not 9.4%.

2F is 94.38 % as fast as 3F [with the velocity of 3F being 100%].

And the velocity of 3F is 105.95% above that of 2F [with the velocity of 2F being 100%]

That percentage represents about a 7.2 grain powder difference out of a 120 grain Goex load.
While using a flat 10% would be a difference of 12 grains of powder.

"If you want to know what percent A is of B, you simply divide A by B, then take that number and move the decimal place two spaces to the right.
That's your percentage!
To use the calculator, enter two numbers to calculate the percentage the first is of the second by clicking Calculate Percentage."--->>> http://www.csgnetwork.com/csgpercent.html


The percentages could change for other loads depending on their charted velocities.
.

I think you are overthinking this. A max load of FFg, as in deemed by Thompson Center to be the maximum safe pressure for my rifle, is 120 grains. That first chart you posted, the red line being FFg in 54 caliber is about 1675 fps at 120 grains. The yellow line, being FFFg, is hard to tell exactly as it is covered, but looks like 100 grains is pretty close to the same 1675 fps. We know that is an unsafe load in my rifle, as it is producing more pressure than the safe maximum load of FFg powder. A faster powder will always produce more pressure at the same velocity of a slower powder, all else equal. What is a safe maximum of FFFg in my rifle? I don't know for sure, but I do know it's more than a 10% decrease in powder.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

if you can blow up a TC barrel using a little more than 120gr 2fg, i wouldnt be shooting a tc barrel. It will handle a LOT more than that.

[megasupermagnum]

if you can blow up a TC barrel using a little more than 120gr 2fg, i wouldnt be shooting a tc barrel. It will handle a LOT more than that.

I wont disagree with you there. I'm thinking the first thing you might run into as far as safety is cap fragments flying back at you. I really doubt you could honestly blow up a TC barrel with FFg blackpowder without some sort of obstruction.

[arcticap]

The percentages show approximately how much slower Goex 2F is vs. Goex 3F in a .54 test barrel when loaded with a patched round ball.
The greatest % differences were with 50, 60 and 70 grains of powder.

40 grains 2F – 1130 / 3F – 1170 - 96.5% - 3.5% slower
50 grains 2F - 1210 / 3F - 1300 - 93.0% - 7% slower
60 grains 2F - 1300 / 3F - 1430 - 90.9% - 9.1% slower
70 grains 2F - 1410 / 3F - 1510 - 93.3% - 6.7% slower
80 grains 2F - 1520 / 3F – 1590 - 95.5% - 4.5% slower
90 grains 2F - 1550 / 3F - 1630 - 95.0% - 5% slower
100 grains 2F - 1590 / 3F - 1685 - 94.3% - 5.7% slower
110 grains 2F - 1630 / 3F - 1720 - 94.7% - 5.3% slower
120 grains 2F - 1680 / 3F - 1780 - 94.3% - 5.7% slower

[megasupermagnum]

The percentages show approximately how much slower Goex 2F is vs. Goex 3F in a .54 test barrel when loaded with a patched round ball.
The greatest % differences were with 50, 60 and 70 grains of powder.

40 grains 2F – 1130 / 3F – 1170 - 96.5% - 3.5% slower
50 grains 2F - 1210 / 3F - 1300 - 93.0% - 7% slower
60 grains 2F - 1300 / 3F - 1430 - 90.9% - 9.1% slower
70 grains 2F - 1410 / 3F - 1510 - 93.3% - 6.7% slower
80 grains 2F - 1520 / 3F – 1590 - 95.5% - 4.5% slower
90 grains 2F - 1550 / 3F - 1630 - 95.0% - 5% slower
100 grains 2F - 1590 / 3F - 1685 - 94.3% - 5.7% slower
110 grains 2F - 1630 / 3F - 1720 - 94.7% - 5.3% slower
120 grains 2F - 1680 / 3F - 1780 - 94.3% - 5.7% slower

And your point is...?

120 grains FFg, safe maximum load listed by TC. 1680 FPS.
100 grains FFFG, 1685 fps. Certainly more pressure, but equal velocity.

That's a drop of 16.67%, and still a higher pressure.