First Build Support

[Jkrem]

So as luck will have it, I ran into something completely unexpected at a yard sale yesterday. There on the table was a curly maple stock and 43” barrel marked G R Douglas 45 Cal. The barrel has some surface rust on it, and I could see some fine rust in the barrel. I asked the gent where the rest of it was, and he brought out a box with the lock, trigger guard, and other bits and bobs. The story was that he bought the parts about 30 years ago, and lost interest in making the gun. His son took an interest 15 years ago, and for some unknown reason butchered the front of the stock and tang inletting before he lost interest. After about 30 minutes, we struck a deal for $100. I’m going to take some time and read up on this, but my initial inclination is to make a jaeger style rifle with a 30” barrel using the butchered stock. I know a gunsmith who builds fine muzzleloaders, and am going to talk to him and get his thoughts. I can have him replace the breech plug so I can correctly inlet the tang, cut and crown the barrel, drill and tap for the touchhole, and cut a dovetail on the shortened barrel for a front sight. Also need a buttplate, toe plate, and some other bits and bobs and have been studying what’s available on track of the Wolf. I’d appreciate any thoughts from experienced builders, and am in no hurry with this. I think I got some quality parts.
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[JBinMN]

Considering the prices at this link below, although I do not know if they are reasonable or not, it looks like you got a helluva deal on your kit.
;)

http://longrifles-pr.com/jaeger.shtml

I do not have any "support" for ya, but I am interested & would like to follow along as you progress if you continue to tell us here what you are doing & maybe even show some more pics as you progress in the build.
:)

GLuck!~
:)

[Pigboat]

That's a fantastic deal and you're in the right part of the country to get anything you need for it. I think Pa. was the birthplace of the american long rifle.

[arcticap]

The "fine rust" in the bore makes it sound like it may benefit by either being re-rifled into a .50 or by having the rifling "re-freshed".

Since we can't see it, that's only my impression.

But even if so, it's still a great deal.

[1Hawkeye]

If your anywhere near kempton pa. go to Dixions muzzleloading shop he's got all kinds of parts and advice. He's a smith of very high regard and has put out one of the best books there is on how to build a muzzleloading rifle. Best twenty bucks I ever spent on a book. As for the fine lair of rust in the bore that can be cured with 0000 steel wool on a tight jag and some elbow grease. It looks like the stock is an allentown pattern if you have enough undamaged wood I would consider making it a 36" barrel that should make it balance out perfect.

[Jkrem]

They are about 1-1/2 hours away from me. Thank you.

[LAGS]

The Stock inletting can be corrected by glass bedding.
It wont look perfect, but can be made to work very well.
I have corrected many Kits started by other people that way.
And if you do it correctly, it can ADD to the outlining of the wood to the metal..
Try that before you invest in a different Tang or lock.
Fresh rust or Patina may not be an issue.
Clean it up and see if it is Pitted.
Vinegar will remove rust, ( and Bluing )
Boiling the metal in distilled water after it is de greased will turn it into Bluing

[LAGS]

You also have the option if the stock is inletted too big, to inlay a piece of matching wood into the stock, or inlay a different color of wood to create an Accent then re- inlet the stock as needed as I did on this stock that someone cut the notch for the bolt handle too big.
I carved out the stock, and inlayed a piece of Ebony into the stock, then Re- Cut the bolt handle notch.
Not the best Fix.
But better than what it was, and cheaper than a new stock.

[waksupi]

Definitely not a Jaeger design. As was stated, most likely an Allentown pattern. Be thankful it's no bigger than a .45 caliber. I always found a Roman nose stock to be brutal on the cheekbone even in .45.

[bedbugbilly]

You got a great bargain - what you paid doesn't even cover what the barrel is worth.The barrel will lean up just fine and will be a good one - I have used several of the Douglas barrels many years ago for builds - allure excellent. Looking at the lock . . . someone should have taken the parts away from the original owners and not let them play . . LOL . . . why in the heck they would drill a lock bolt hole in the rear end of the lock doesn't even make sense. Take your time and you'll end up with a nice build. I can't tell just how good the inletting is on the stock but if there are some bad spots - you can always "graft" new wood that is similar in curl to correct their mistakes. The hole they drilled in the tail of the lock is repairable and the hole through the stock going from the lock mortise to under the side plate can be fixed with a dowel epoxied in. The hole in the lock repaired and the side plate mounted and you'll never know it. You've got a good project ahead of you and lots of fun while doing the build - enjoy!

[LAGS]

The hole in the rear of the lock can be repaired without welding, by threading a screw in that is the same size thread as the hole if it is tapped, then peening it over on both sides, then polishing it flat.
The same can be done if the hole is not Tapped by using a snug fitting metal rod and peening over both sides.
The metal when polished down should Brown or Blue up just fine and you will barely see a mark.

[Jkrem]

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So it sounds like the lock should only be attached by the front screw? Was curious why none of the threads on the three wider screws I have fit the hole in the rear of the lock. If I can find the right tap, does it hurt anything to attach front and back? Also tang is very narrow, and poorly inlet. I would have thought that a tang screw attached this to the stock, or alternately that a bolt attached the tang to the trigger group (which I don’t have!). Interestingly, I think I have almost all the parts necessary to build another lock, except a second lock plate.

[LAGS]

there are a lot of things you need to look at.
One,
Since the Lock is inletted already, where does the barrel line up with the flash hole to lock.
The inletting for the tang may need to be adjusted to make things line up.
Your Tang needs to be drilled and countersunk for the mounting screws.
I see no reason why you would need a thru bolt from the Tang to the trigger guard or Trigger assembly for that matter.
If you could show some dimensions of the inletting if there is any for the trigger guard and trigger recess, we might be able to help you locate what you need for the bottom metal per what it was set up for, or make suggestions that fall with in your budget to get the parts you need.

[Pigboat]

Judging from picture no. 2 it appears that the barrel and tang need to be moved toward the butt some. You need to find out where the end of the breech plug is at inside the barrel and make sure it's a little behind the flash pan.

[northmn]

First off the Douglas barrel should be indexed so that the Douglas is either top or bottom. Douglas barrels were at one time top of the line but had run out where the hole at the breech was not centered. Also I use to fill in gaps if not too bad by taking plane shavings off of maple and epoxy gluing them in with stain. The lock appears to be a Siler which is a good lock. I have no idea what the side plate is but the lock is drilled wrong for installation. One bolt should go through the bottom part of the breech plug and into the bolster of the lock.
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I built these three ML's. Sold others. the one is a rifle I built for my wife which would be similar to what you are looking at. The other is a 25 cal Poor Boy squirrel rifle. Up against a stock blank similar to what I made it out of. Finally a 12 ga I built out of spare parts and a barrel I picked up at a gun show for $5. The stock is a birch I cut off the back forty and split out.
Somehow got the one picture to post twice easier to leave it.

DEP

[Jkrem]

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I’m learning a ton from the comments here and PMs. Here are a couple more pics. It appears that the original owner was indeed way ahead of himself, the barrel needs to be moved back about 1/2” to allow the flashpan to align in front of the breechplug. This will allow me to cleanup the botched tang inletting. At this point I’m going to try to make things work with this stock, if for no other reason to get some experience with inletting. I ordered some inletting black and am spending today sharpening chisels. I tried to get a picture of what was done to inlet for the trigger. Don’t see any floorplate on track of the wolf that is an obvious fit, but I can address the trigger later. Thanks for the comments.

[LAGS]

I didn't think that the previous owner had set up the barrel correctly to the flash pan.
But sometimes it will be hard for us to come up with the fine details without the rifle actually in our hands.
Have you looked into correcting the mounting of the lock yet ?
That is something that has to be done in conjunction with setting the barrel into the stock at the proper location..
But since the lock is inletted already, that will be your "Datum Point" for the rest of the set up.
The Side Plate that you already have can be mounted with Countersunk Wood Screws rather than thru bolts if needed, Or you can Fill the holes in the side plate also if you choose.
It is your rifle, do it the way you want to.
Then the Thru bolt can be set up to clear the Breech Block on your barrel

[Jkrem]

LAGS - The two holes that are drilled in the lock align with the two holes in the side plate. I understand now that this in completely wrong, and that it should be attached with one hole through the bolster. I’m going to try to make this set up work, my concern is clearance for the trigger and sear near the rear bolt. The bolt is beyond the sear, so I think I’m ok. Worst situation is I plane the back of the stock to eliminate the lock plate inletting, fill the holes, and start over. A very nice brass side plate was in with the parts I got, no idea why they did what they did. Once my inletting black arrives, I will work on moving back the barrel, and inletting the tang. The lock inletting seems ok, with the flash pan snug to the side of the barrel. Note this is a straight sided vs a swamped barrel, thank goodness.

[LAGS]

@ Jkrem.
You can retain the holes and bolts that are in the lock and side plate, as long as they don't interfere with the trigger or lock.
It is just not the way other rifles are set up.
But I believe that you still will need the thru mounting screw to mount your lock properly in addition to the other screws.
But you make that call.
Others may have more experience with , Bubba Custom lock installations than I do.
But don't go shaving off the inletting for the side plate just yet.
Lets gather all the info to help you make the best decisions.
So wait for all the input before you decide what to do.

[1Hawkeye]

When you go over to Dixion's take all the parts with you and they can walk you through the pre-build repairs.

[taco650]

LAGS - The two holes that are drilled in the lock align with the two holes in the side plate. I understand now that this in completely wrong, and that it should be attached with one hole through the bolster. I’m going to try to make this set up work, my concern is clearance for the trigger and sear near the rear bolt. The bolt is beyond the sear, so I think I’m ok. Worst situation is I plane the back of the stock to eliminate the lock plate inletting, fill the holes, and start over. A very nice brass side plate was in with the parts I got, no idea why they did what they did. Once my inletting black arrives, I will work on moving back the barrel, and inletting the tang. The lock inletting seems ok, with the flash pan snug to the side of the barrel. Note this is a straight sided vs a swamped barrel, thank goodness.

Last year I "built" a Traditions Kentucky rifle from one of their kits. It's one of the European made kits and the lock that came with it is a two-bolt unit, one in front, one in back. The lock isn't high quality compare to Siler and others but it works. Whoever started on yours may have seen a lock mounted like my Kentucky rifle and thought it was the right way to do it.

I also agree with LAGS on gathering all the info you can before buying parts or working on the kit. Having a solid plan in place before hand saves missteps down the road.

Also, lipstick can be used in place of inletting black. I did a second rifle last year that I built from ebay parts and a plank of tulip poplar from a tree I cut down in the yard and it worked fine for me.

[LAGS]

@ Taco650.
I agree with using what is on hand.
A friend wanted a Light Colored stock built, but didn't want to wait for me to find a blank, or pay the price for what they cost.
So I built him a stock out of some Trunk Wood I had trimmed off a Jacaranda tree I was cutting down in my front yard over the past year.
I didn't tell him where I got the wood, but he was more than amazed on how it turned out.

[Jkrem]

Monday 4/22 update: Spent the past 5 days draw filing the top 5 flats of the barrel prior to seeing the gunsmith on Wednesday. Also worked on tuning the Siler lock, as the frizzen was way too tight and wouldn’t fully open. Took my time with a very fine 00 file and stones until it moved smoothly, then quit. Lock throws a nice shower of sparks, and frizzen now flips fully open. Looking forward to Wednesday’s visit to the gunsmith.

[1Hawkeye]

Sounds like you set the hook. Keep us posted and boy are you going to have some satisfaction when you're finished the build.

[taco650]

@ Taco650.
I agree with using what is on hand.
A friend wanted a Light Colored stock built, but didn't want to wait for me to find a blank, or pay the price for what they cost.
So I built him a stock out of some Trunk Wood I had trimmed off a Jacaranda tree I was cutting down in my front yard over the past year.
I didn't tell him where I got the wood, but he was more than amazed on how it turned out.

I stained my tulip poplar stock with dark stain from something left from another project. The color is in the walnut family but my stock doesn't look like walnut due to the grain but I don't care because I made myself and I'm just proud that it works! Shot it the other day for the first time and was thrilled!

[Jkrem]

April 25 Update. Met with the gunsmith today, and think I now have a plan. Like a couple comments here, he has had very poor experience with the Roman nose style stock that I have. My Douglas barrel and Silar lock are high quality pieces, and he recommended swallowing hard and trashing my stock and starting over. We then spent 30 minutes with his personal long-rifles, so I could get an idea what style I like and how they all handle. My favorite was a Beck style Pennsylvania rifle, and he gave me an old copy of the Trail of the Wolf catalog and Dixon’s builders guide to borrow and read. He told me to come back once I have a new partially inletted stock, and he would walk me through getting the barrel set and pinned, and the lock properly installed. So, the journey now begins with a search for a Beck or Lebanon-Lancaster stock. Great day with a very nice gentleman.

[LAGS]

I bet you could sell your stock, and recoup some of your money.
It may not be much, but it is better than using it to make Charcoal for making your black powder.
Treat your gunsmith Well.
Take him and his crew a Pizza next time you are in.

[1Hawkeye]

Beck is a very comfortable pattern stock. You might also want to look at a Hanes - Lancaster pattern. Issac Hanes was a Lancaster smith from 1770 to 1790. The front ends of both stocks would be about the same the difference is the butts with the plate of the Beck being a little more narrower and curved than the Hanes. My two best builds are a .40 cal J P Beck with a 42" green mountain barrel,brass furniture, Davis set triggers and siler percussion lock and a Issac Hanes .50 cal with a 38" swamped green mountain barrel,iron furniture,Davis siler flintlock, Davis set triggers. Both are stocked in curly maple and the Hanes I turned into a convertible with a drum and siler percussion lock.

[Jkrem]

Hawkeye, my challenge may be finding a pre-inlet stock in those patterns for my barrel (straight, 13/16, 45cal). Looks like my only TOW choice with a large Siler lock is Jacob Dickert, although my barrel is 44” not 42”. Their Haines and Beck stocks are only for swamped barrels. Need to check out some other suppliers.


Beck is a very comfortable pattern stock. You might also want to look at a Hanes - Lancaster pattern. Issac Hanes was a Lancaster smith from 1770 to 1790. The front ends of both stocks would be about the same the difference is the butts with the plate of the Beck being a little more narrower and curved than the Hanes. My two best builds are a .40 cal J P Beck with a 42" green mountain barrel,brass furniture, Davis set triggers and siler percussion lock and a Issac Hanes .50 cal with a 38" swamped green mountain barrel,iron furniture,Davis siler flintlock, Davis set triggers. Both are stocked in curly maple and the Hanes I turned into a convertible with a drum and siler percussion lock.

[1Hawkeye]

Try Tip Curtis frontier shop in Cross Plains Tn. He's who I got my stuff from and he's got a lot of pre inlet stocks. Also a company called tigerhut has pre inlet stocks. There is a colonial market fair at ft frederick Md this weekend and I think tigerhut will be set up there. Tip used to go there also but he's in his mid 80's now and not traveling to the fort or Dixions anymore.

[Jkrem]

April 29th update. Tip Curtis didn’t have a stock that would work for me, however he gave me the contact info for Knob Mountain Muzzleloading in Berwick, PA. I spoke to the owner there today, and he can do the J.P. Beck stock profiling and barrel inletting and ramrod milling and drilling for me, either with my wood or wood he supplies. Really nice fellow. So now to decide on wood. I may have access to some old cherry.

[Wayne Smith]

If the cherry is thick enough for a stock it is classic and very nice if you like the color it turns. I prefer tiger maple personally, but a nice cherry stock is beautiful.

[Jkrem]

May 28 update - Got an email from Track of the Wolf on Friday that a grade 3 fully inlet Jacob Dickert stock was available, and ordered it up. While I wanted the Beck design, this seems pretty close and I frankly wimped out of having to fully inlet the lock from scratch. I also ordered two new breech plugs, as I’m not sure what thread I have. I’m now holding my breath that the lock inletting is close to the shape of my large Siler lock. I have since found out that my lock and Douglas barrel are circa 1976, as the gentleman I bought from mailed me some documents that he found. I have ordered a screw slot file, and am planning to make a plug screw to fill in the incorrect hole near the rear of the lock using some green Loctite and filing it flush. While waiting for all the parts and file to arrive, today I forged a piece of sterling silver bar flat and am cutting out a hunter’s star to inlay above the cheek rest. It’s been so much fun, I think I will make a lock screw plate from sterling silver also. Will update again after the stock arrives. Should have all the major components to the gunsmith in a few weeks. In the meantime, back to novice silversmithing!

[taco650]

Thanks for the update!! ������

[Jkrem]

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First time working in silver, really happy with it! Just needs a bit of filing and some polishing.

[1Hawkeye]

Thanks for the update and good looking star. With that kinda talent this is gonna be a sweet looking rifle when your finished.

[waksupi]

242549

First time working in silver, really happy with it! Just needs a bit of filing and some polishing.

Do final filing and polishing after it is inlet.

[dondiego]

What is the thickness of that star to be inlaid?

[Jkrem]

What is the thickness of that star to be inlaid?
Dondiego, the star thickness is 1.6mm, it weighs .26 ozT. I just made a side plate that I’d like try too, it is 1.7mm, and 0.21 ozT. 242991

As an update, my M3 Dickert fully inletted stock arrived from Track of the Wolf. It’s really nice, and is figured stem to stern as described. Fully inletted is a relative description, my Siler lock is on the big size I guess and will need some more work. Anyone have an extra mainspring vise to sell/trade?

[Jkrem]

June 11 update - New package from track of the Wolf yesterday, a Davis double set trigger, two 8-32 lock plate screws (in case mine are too short), and their very nicely made English style lock spring vise. Now that the lock is safely apart and the parts marked and stored, I can better see that the lock inletting appears only slightly off for my Siler lock. I’m hoping to get the barrel and breech plugs to my gunsmith this Thursday or Friday to remove the old breech plug, and install the correct sized replacement plug (bought both him both 5/8 and 9/16 plugs). Other than some pins and the tang bolt, I think I now have all the parts for a functioning gun. Still need to decide on buttplate, sideplate, and toeplate. I’m continuing to cleanup my handmade silver furniture, and reading and watching YouTube videos on barrel inletting which will be the first step once I get my barrel back. I’ll need to make sure the pan lines up in front of the plug as I’m inletting the barrel, since my lock mortising is probably 90%. One builder on YouTube with. TOW inletted stock inlet the lock first, then inlet the barrel to make sure pan alignment was correct. Plan to get some advise from the gunsmith on my parts.

[Jkrem]

June 25- been delayed getting to my gun smith, so I’m working on the lock. Filled that errant rear hole in my lock plate with a plug, and filed off the front. Noticeable, but smooth and better than the hole there! Now to remove the rear of the plug. Also noticed the flash pan bridle wasn’t perfectly flat so I corrected that so there is no gap where it touches the side of the barrel. ATTACH=CONFIG]244106[/ATTACH]244107

[1Hawkeye]

Nice patch job, if you ruff up the plate surface before browning it will look like a casting flaw rather than a patched hole.