What is it?

[dubber123]

I have an old German single shot I started tinkering on today. The only name on it is HUBERTUS, which appears under the fore arm, and inside the action. From what I have found, it is most likely made by Emanuel Meffet, in Suhl, Germany in the early 1900's.

The bore size is .375, and the rimmed case seems very close to, if not identical to the 38-55, in fact I shot some mild Unique loads in it today using 38-55 brass, and cases look normal afterwards.

The twist looked slow by eye, but I tried some cast 270 gr. HP's I had laying around, and sure enough, keyholes at about 25'. I tried measuring the twist, but my cleaning rod wasn't long enough! I will call it 1-30", so very slow. Loads using a much lighter boolit from an old Ideal gallery bullet mold hit point on.

Does anyone have an idea what the German designation for this cartridge might be, and what it produced for ballistics? Its a very light rifle, and I'd rather not stress it unduly, but it would be nice to get it to shoot to the sights.


Thanks in advance

[Jedman]

I would try a 200 gr bullet in the 38-55 brass and see how it shoots.
They did chamber rifles to "American " cartridges in Europe so it may be a 38-55.

Jedman

[dubber123]

I would try a 200 gr bullet in the 38-55 brass and see how it shoots.
They did chamber rifles to "American " cartridges in Europe so it may be a 38-55.

Jedman

I did try some from the old Ideal gallery mold, and they hit point on, I'll weigh some today. The slow twist is a bit of a bummer, but it's still a nice rifle. I would like to determine what factory velocity would have been on this light boolit load, so I don't stress the old girl, and hopefully get it shooting to the sights. Thanks.

[NyFirefighter357]

When I did a google search it auto filled "krieghoff hubertus single shot rifle" which lead me to https://www.krieghoff.com/
Which lead me to https://www.krieghoff.com/hunting-guns/krieghoff-hubertus-single-shot-rifle/
Which has a link to a price list of ones they sell now https://www.krieghoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/HUBERTUS-Prices-2018-FINAL.pdf

[richhodg66]

Round ball loads perhaps?

Sounds like a cool rifle. Any pics of it?

[dubber123]

Round ball loads perhaps?

Sounds like a cool rifle. Any pics of it?

Only way my caveman self could get a pic on is to send it by phone to someone more tech saavy than me.

[dubber123]

I was a little too quick to proclaim it as a ".375" . It slugs closer to .382", not uncommon amongst 38-55s apparently. The slow twist will not stabilize my 270 cast, no surprise, and my light mold casts undersize.. I took a hacksaw to 3 of the 270's, and reduced them to basically 180 gr. WCs. They strike point on at 30-35 yards, so there is hope. The Greenhill formula says I need a .7" long boolit or less, which is pretty short.

[1Hawkeye]

It could be a 9.3x48r or a 9.3x57r I found the listed in cartridges of the world and they are described as comprable with a .38-55 but the bullet weights go anywhere from a 160gr up to a 245gr. If you have a copy of cotw its in the European cartridges chapter.

[dubber123]

It could be a 9.3x48r or a 9.3x57r I found the listed in cartridges of the world and they are described as comprable with a .38-55 but the bullet weights go anywhere from a 160gr up to a 245gr. If you have a copy of cotw its in the European cartridges chapter.

.375 would make it a 9.5, so those are out. I am pretty sure its a plain old 38-55. which is nice as far as finding brass, I just wish it had a more useful rifling twist.

[NyFirefighter357]

Here are the pics
https://i.imgur.com/FKpCxFb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KDkKoyQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2q5Dz7c.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w6ttYx4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/m5heDmN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/l8hjfwM.jpg?1

I'll also link the bigger pic of the proof marks here: https://i.imgur.com/m5heDmN.jpg

[sharps4590]

Why not just do a chamber cast and measure it and remove all doubt? I've been collecting and shooting German rifles for something over 20 years and I wouldn't do anything before I cast the chamber and slugged the bore. If it is 38-55 it's likely it had the chamber cut over here and possibly re-rifled. The 9.3 X 72R is close to the 38-55 and often one can actually use .358 bullets in them as many are rifled quite tight. Those old German 'smiths liked a tight chamber and bore, often using a "ring bullet" to compensate for the bore/groove being tight. They also liked to slightly alter a case/bore/groove to their spec's so the owners HAD to buy their ammunition from him. Captive market, kinda, sorta. As you say it slugs .382 that makes me think perhaps it was re-rifled as well. What do the proof marks tell you? It's possible/probable they are incorrect at this late date but they can, perhaps, give you a clue as to what it was.

I happen to own a 9.3 X 57R, the old BP, straight case round, and it does not slug to .382 groove diameter.....which is basically meaningless except for that particular rifle. Lots of stuff happened to a lot of those rifles once they hit our shores. I also own no less than 4 rifles which WERE NOT chambered for the cartridges they were sold as. That's whey I don't start anything with a rifle before I cast the chamber. For me it was actually a pleasant surprise because that's the kind of stuff I like to work with, something no one has ever heard of.

Immanuel, (not Emanuel), Meffert is likely the maker. If memory serves me correct Meffert was the first to use the Dural receiver, very strong aluminum which reduced the weight significantly. Until WWII his shop was one of the premier makers and I believe it dates to either the very late 1700's or maybe the early 1800's. When I had a Meffert/Hubertus drilling I knew all that but it's been a while and I've slept since then so am assuredly subject to correction.

We were posting at the same time, evidently......WOW!!!! Lovely rifle!!!!

[Speedo66]

That's a beauty! I like the lined work they did on the cheek rest, haven't seen that before.

[Finster101]

Nothing to offer other than that is one very nice looking rifle.

[dubber123]

First of all thanks to NyFirefighter357 for getting my pics up, I'll try and pull the forend and get a pic of the markings under it.

It indeed slugs .382, and a boolit seated backwards contacts the rifling not too far from an original, (long) 38-55 case. Fired brass appears totally normal, no bulges, or other weirdness. The super slow twist does lead me to believe this was a rechamber from another 9.5mm, not 9.3mm cartridge. If I could determine what that cartridge was, I would have a velocity/boolit weight goal to aim for. I do enjoy getting these old timers up and running again. Thanks for the feedback so far, I appreciate it.

[BigEyeBob]

Thats a seriously beautiful rifle , and typical European style .
Very nice indeed .I have a Martini in 300 Sherwood and marked as such ,Augustus Francotte proof marks but no makers name marked on it .The bore slugs at .312",and a chamber cast from it gives the correct dimensions of the Sherwood case .But the correct 300 Sherwood bore size is .300" over the grooves .Ive made a larger expander for my dies to load the larger projectile so I can load cartridges . Made a dummy round and tried it in the chamber and it fits . The Brits had a strange way of designating thier bore sizes ,maybe the maker went along the lines of the British 303 ,and cut the rifling to that dimension ie 303 bore and 312 grooves .Who knows?.

[NyFirefighter357]

I put all the pictures in post #10

BTW, Immanuel Meffert Est. 1839

[onelight]

Wow , that is beautiful I can’t stop looking at it.
I don’t care if she can cook or not she sure is pretty.

[NyFirefighter357]

Here are some proof marks
https://i.imgur.com/OZRX1HE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/i7IjTrt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7qicdES.jpg

[NyFirefighter357]

So I read this as Crown over B is single proof. Crown over U is an inspection proof. Crown over G indicated Rifle. I also don't see a nitro proof. I haven't figured the numbers out. 1000,11835, 11.07, 282. The ES could be the initials of the barrel proofer.
According to this http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html
This indicates it was made between 1890-1939

[dubber123]

Thanks again, possibly they are re-proofs? I'm not sure I buy that it was made in 1950 or later. I am pretty sure the larger 1000 is the serial #, I think in my searching I found another similar Hubertus with a 3 digit number in the same spot. Hmm.

OK.. I reviewed your posted info, and in the link I searched German instead of East German, and thats when I noticed the crown in my proofs is different than the crown used in the post 1950 proofs. My proofs match the ones used from 1891-1939. They indicate a rifled "Gezogen" barrel, and the U means it was inspected in the final assembled stage.

[NyFirefighter357]

I was wondering about the shape of the crown. It was late and I couldn't find any reference that showed the crown in yours. I changed the link I think the 11.07 is the date made Nov. 1907 and it's black powder as it doesn't have a nitro stamp.

[gewehrfreund]

Very nice stalking rifle.
Hubertus is a common trade name for German hunting rifles; FWIW, he is the patron saint of hunting.
I read the proofs as follows: 1000 is the serial number, the rifle was made or proofed on Jan. 18, 1935. If you're sure the barrel is in the .380" range, this is where it gets confusing, because the 11.07 would normally refer to the bore size, which would make it something in the 40+ caliber range. I think the 282 is a proofers number, and the ES is anybody's guess, but "ES" is a common German signifier for single shot (einzel schuss).

[Rich/WIS]

The 11.07 is proof date, Nov 1907. Bore diameter is 118.35 or a bore of about .340. This seems small given the groove diameter is so large, but it is possible that this was a lead bullet round using black powder. The .340 bore was used on some nominal 9.3 rifles.

[rking22]

OK, That rifle is Beautiful!!! I bet it feels wonderful in hand to boot. I really ,really WANT one....

[dubber123]

Awesome information guys! Much appreciated! Seat of the pants I was telling people 1900-1910, so I guessed reasonably well for me :)

I am sure on the groove size,at .381-382" and the slow twist. BORE size is probably right about .376-.377", as a .375" boolit will start from the muzzle with finger pressure.

I'd dearly love it if somewhere in the proof marks, there was a pressure it was proofed at. I have a boolit weight range narrowed down, I just need a pressure window to work with and I can get started.

Thanks again!

[dubber123]

OK, That rifle is Beautiful!!! I bet it feels wonderful in hand to boot. I really ,really WANT one....

Thank you, it does indeed balance very well, and the sights just fall in place when shouldered. It weighs 5 pounds 13 ounces, so its pretty light for an all steel, long barreled rifle.

[NyFirefighter357]

A little recap:
Serial number 1,000
Made in Nov, 1907
Black powder proofed only
118.35 (9.3mm) was original bore diameter
ES is single shot
Cal. 9.3x57R, 9.3x72R, 9.3x74R or 9.3x82R?
I also believe the 282 is 2.82(g) is the amount of powder used for the proofing. If this is true it might have been 9.3x82R as you needed to proof 30% over max charge & the 9.3x72R was 2.67g for proof.
Read here: http://www.germanguns.com/technical.html

[john.k]

Doubt it.....282 gm is more than 1/2 lb...........1000gm=2.2 lbs.approx.

[NyFirefighter357]

Doubt it.....282 gm is more than 1/2 lb...........1000gm=2.2 lbs.approx.
I left out the decimal thanks. I fixed it

[dubber123]

Whatever it WAS, it certainly is not it anymore, as 9.3 is around .366", 9.5 is .375". It seems doubtful to me someone rechambering AND re rifling would have made such a blunder on the twist, going over twice as slow as standard. I would think it more likely it was originally some version of a 9.5mm intended to shoot lighter weight boolits, sort of the Express cartridge idea. What cartridge that could have been, eludes me at the moment. Thanks for all the new thoughts and efforts, I appreciate it.

[justashooter]

Hubertus or Hubert ( c. 656 – 30 May 727) became Bishop of Liège in 708 AD. He is a Christian saint who is the patron saint of hunters.

[dubber123]

Well, I've nicknamed it the German Keyhole Factory. I have only limited time on the weekends to fiddle with things, but so far I've gotten the LEE 250 gr RF, lapped it to .002" over groove size, and tried it at full factory weight, the bevel base milled off, then milled to 230 grains. !00% keyholes. I've gotten it milled down to 205, and opened the lube groove up to accept a gas check, but ran out of time to test. If that doesn't show promise, the next step brings it to 185. It's nice to have $20 molds to experiment on :)

[corbinace]

What a work of art. I would enjoy handling that fine weapon. How do people find these rifles? Maybe I an just looking on too low a shelf. Congratulations on your find.

[dubber123]

A small update.. I got a little happy cranking the handle on the mill, and ended up with a 175 gr GC from the LEE mold. :) round boolit holes and 2" at 40 yards standing with a step ladder for a rest. I still don't have dies, so these are cobbled together and seated seriously crooked, so I expect some improvement. Dies will be in this week, maybe I can assemble something better for next weekend.

[NyFirefighter357]

Great news

[dubber123]

Weighing under 6#, even 10 grains of Unique kicks a little bit, making it a fun rifle to shoot. It shoots a little high, which may change as I tune it in, but the sights are thankfully pretty well regulated.

[bikerbeans]

You have me convinced, I'll take it!

Enjoy your very nice rifle.

BB

[northmn]

If the 38-55 brass works in it first you have to get some bullets that come closer to matching the bore. I saw a Uberti 35-55 that would keyhole 375 bullets. Over bore rifles like the one you have shoot best with appropriate bullets and probably best with black powder but a faster burning powder will also work. Soft bullets to slug up to the bore. It will shoot if you load right for it. I don't know the strength of the action but BP equivalent loads should work. Get the bullets to fit the bore before worrying about the twist.

DEP

[dubber123]

If the 38-55 brass works in it first you have to get some bullets that come closer to matching the bore. I saw a Uberti 35-55 that would keyhole 375 bullets. Over bore rifles like the one you have shoot best with appropriate bullets and probably best with black powder but a faster burning powder will also work. Soft bullets to slug up to the bore. It will shoot if you load right for it. I don't know the strength of the action but BP equivalent loads should work. Get the bullets to fit the bore before worrying about the twist.

DEP

Oh, I know, and took care of that right off when I got the LEE mold. I actually got a little Lap Happy and it ended up making .384" boolits. Even with .002" over groove boolits, 210 grains showed signs of instability at 40 yards. I got a little mill happy and missed the chance to try a 185 grain plain base, and ended up with a 175 GC. Those strike point first and are beginning to group, in the 2" range at 40 yards with a step ladder for a rest. I don't have dies yet, and those rounds were with seriously crooked seating, which I doubt is helping matters.

Dies and a sizer should be waiting at the post office, I hope to get a chance to try some better crafted ammo this weekend. I welded up and turned a .380" expander to better deal with the fat boolits, which should help a lot with getting things seated straight.

[dubber123]

Well, dies and sizer came in. I honed the sizer to .383", and opened a spare 375 Win seating die up to accept the larger boolits. The welded/turned expander works slick, and leaves me with .003" neck tension.

I tried a few different loads, all were much improved with the new ammo, I have a lot of trial and error to go, but best 40 yard group from the improvised step ladder rest was .607". I followed it up with a .68" group. these loads were with 22 grains of H-4198, and with this light boolit weight, they are not burning clean, even with poly fill added. I'm not sure how much farther I want to push it though. H-4227 was cleaner and I may investigate that more. I never got the chance to try 2400, but thats a possibility too.