A question about AR lowers or Why 80% lowers

[Binky]

This looks like the place to ask.
First a little background. I am putting together another AR lower. I am going to use an Anderson unit as I have found them to be well made and consistent as well as low priced. (under 50 bucks in my area.)

There are many options to choose from. Colors, special engraving ect. (none of which I have an interest in.) Another option is/are the 80 % lowers.

Now for the question:

Why would anyone go with a 80% receiver? They cost more. You have to do a certain amount of machine work in order that they function correctly. When you are done, you have a functional gun that you can't sell, even at cost. You can't trade it to a dealer(the ones that I have talked to will not trade in guns made after 1968 that aren't numbered) And we all know that at some point in the next few decades there will be no transfer without going through a FFL (whether we like it or not, it only takes one election cycle!).

The two reasons I can think of are:
1. To see if I can actually do the work to make the thing work.
2. Reasoning of the Bubbas in my area: I don't want the gubmint to know I have firearms. Which we all know doesn't hold water.

What am I missing here?

If I have gotten to political or stepped on toes, my sincere apology but I have been wondering about this for some time.

[lar45]

The wife and I put an 80% gun together. We were watching the news and they had a segment on "Ghost Guns". So the wife says that if she can build one, then maybe they have something to worry about...
It sounded like a fun project to me, so I ordered the kit and a jig. She did everything except the machining the pocket for the trigger, hammer and safety. She wanted to do that part, but I got started just to see how it would go and before I knew it, I was done and she was tapping her foot at me.
It all went together without a hitch. There was one small problem with the hole for the safety. The jig must have slipped or something because the safety selector doesn't line up at an exact 90deg. Everything functions correctly, and it will hold 1" ish groups.

With lowers being that cheap, I'd probably just go with a completed one instead.

[Boolit_Head]

The 39 dollar Anderson lowers are much cheaper once you figure in the price of the jig and bits and all especially if you can find one local.

[Tripplebeards]

I wouldn’t waste your time. It’s meant to have an illegal, unregistered firearm. You have to buy a jig and a lot of screwing around to find out you messed up or it doesn't function properly. Kinda throwing money way imo. I’d spend another $30 and buy a completed one.

[BK7saum]

I wouldn’t waste your time. It’s meant to have an illegal, unregistered firearm. You have to buy a jig and a lot of screwing around to find out you messed up or it doesn't function properly. Kinda throwing money way imo. I’d spend another $30 and buy a completed one.

There is nothing illegal about it. A person can manufacture a firearm for their own use. If you strike the "illegal" from your response, I'd agree 100%

[Bazoo]

I've heard of folks doing it so they don't raise suspicion having a larger quantity of firearms than most folks do. Heard of folks having hundreds of guns and more ammo than can be hauled in a pickup truck bed. While it ain't illegal here that I know of to have that kind of stockpile. If you went down and bought 2 ARs every month and a case of ammo, it'd get you noticed. And while the government ain't supposed to be watching firearms sales, I've heard of them checking out such activities on an "anonymous" tip.

Folks figuring that if it hits they'll supply the resistance.

[nekshot]

Awe come on, its AMERICA!!!! Land of the FREE! Narrow mindedness needs to be in europe!

[Omega]

When they were first fielded, they had a place, besides the "I made this" reason. It was indeed to have an off the books rifle/pistol, and at the time relatively inexpensive. Due to the availability and popularity of ARs, you couldn't find one for private sale. Now, with so many inexpensive lowers available and many option for private sale they dont make sense unless you just want to DIY.

[Rcmaveric]

Depending on where you live they are cheaper. When I was stationed in California 6 years ago an 80% lower was cheaper. So you could save some money by group buying the tooling and building a bunch with friends. Also have the "i built this" factor. It is perfectly legal to manufacture your own gun. I am stationed in Florida now and they are pretty cheap here. Now it is done for the "I built this factor" and spite by legally circumventing the law. I for one dont like the government knowing what I buy. I sure didnt trust California know what i had.

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[T_McD]

I would say the biggest draw is the diy aspect. I can get a “ghost” gun thru private sales.

[Binky]

Thanks for the replies! Good to know that I am not to far afield.

[Tackleberry41]

Was a time not long ago when even Anderson was $250, those 80% sure were alot cheaper. Yea a $40 lower seems cheaper, but you still gotta do the transfer. Not seen to many places doing them for less than $50, so now its $90. And I can get a billet lower for that price. The jig was the big cost hurdle to do one. I split the cost with a friend he did a couple, I did a couple.

As for the idea its illegal or stupid, whatever. If one is capable of following directions, sort of like reloading, its hard to screw up an 80% lower.

[Sig556r]

Not only ARs but nowadays you can DIY build Glocks, Sigs, 1911s...& I'm not talking 3D printing yet

[sureYnot]

There's also the ability to order them through the mail. And no waiting a week because some guy has a similar name.
If you've built up a collection of uppers and now decided you want each to have it's own lower, it's not a bad idea.

If you're in no hurry, you can do better than $50 from time to time. While buying the tools to mill one lower may not make the best financial sense, making 10ish would offset the cost pretty well.

Also, I believe you can sell them (just like any other gun) if you have them engraved with caliber ("multi-cal" is fine) and a serial number. There are height and depth requirements. You just can't manufacture with the intent to sell.

If you have them engraved, it's easiest to do so before milling. Anyone can do it at this point. Afterwards probably nobody but a gunsmith will touch it. And you either have to stand there the whole time or they get documented and you basically get treated like a new sale, defeating the purpose of all your efforts.

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[nun2kute]

I'd consider an 80% lower, just because I like doing/building things with my own hands. I didn't get into metal shop in school, but I sure wish I would have, and wood shop has some fond memories. Everything in life COSTS something, weather it be effort or money or time, most likely all of the above. I just need to decide how to proportion it all.

[MrWolf]

Had the same discussion with my LGS and basically came to the same conclusion. Just not worth it as my LGS charges $25 for a transfer up to four per transaction. He had gotten a few really cheap. When he went back for more the price had doubled.

[Tripplebeards]

Guess your right....


Quote...


“While it is 100% legal to complete and build your own AR 15 on an 80% lower receiver without any type of serialization or registration, one should be aware of a few facts.



First, your firearm cannot be traced in the event it is lost or stolen.



Second,

you may be called into question about the possession of such a firearm if your vehicle or home is ever searched by law enforcement. Although 100% legal, make sure you know the law and be even more certain you can defend your right of non-registration adequately.”



I’d still buy one that’s been manufactured for $40 more. Guess it’s OK to own but can’t legally sell I with out registering it and getting a serial number etched in it. Which we all know would never happen.

[frkelly74]

Was a time not long ago when even Anderson was $250, those 80% sure were alot cheaper. Yea a $40 lower seems cheaper, but you still gotta do the transfer. Not seen to many places doing them for less than $50, so now its $90. And I can get a billet lower for that price. The jig was the big cost hurdle to do one. I split the cost with a friend he did a couple, I did a couple.

As for the idea its illegal or stupid, whatever. If one is capable of following directions, sort of like reloading, its hard to screw up an 80% lower.

I have bought an Anderson stripped lower for the $50 and the 4473 didn't cost anything. I think other states charge for the background check but Michigan doesn't so far. Right after I bought the one I got they had a sale and were letting them go for $40. That was Gander Outdoors, this was true in Saginaw and Kalamazoo that I know of personally.

[RP]

If you look at the dates of the post and the prices they state it let you know why now is a good time to buy stripped lowers at 50 bucks each. Warning when you have a few lowers laying in the safe all naked you will start buying uppers. It kind of like you get one lower and swap uppers yea right those two pins will be to much trouble you think and well you figure it out.

Oh this may be the time you look back at and say man I wished I knew what I know now I got everything I could afford then. I have added to my collection for that reason and the price so when the price is up I just coast along without regret.

[MrHarmless]

Warning when you have a few lowers laying in the safe all naked you will start buying uppers.

Spare parts are just new gun seeds. :)

[frkelly74]

If you look at the dates of the post and the prices they state it let you know why now is a good time to buy stripped lowers at 50 bucks each. Warning when you have a few lowers laying in the safe all naked you will start buying uppers. It kind of like you get one lower and swap uppers yea right those two pins will be to much trouble you think and well you figure it out.

Oh this may be the time you look back at and say man I wished I knew what I know now I got everything I could afford then. I have added to my collection for that reason and the price so when the price is up I just coast along without regret.

You can SEE the future sometimes if you pay attention to the past.

[jmorris]

Why would anyone go with a 80% receiver? They cost more. You have to do a certain amount of machine work in order that they function correctly. When you are done, you have a functional gun that you can't sell, even at cost. You can't trade it to a dealer(the ones that I have talked to will not trade in guns made after 1968 that aren't numbered) And we all know that at some point in the next few decades there will be no transfer without going through a FFL (whether we like it or not, it only takes one election cycle!).

I fall into the “why” category because of the cost and lack of finish etc. as above one can get a ready to go lower for $40.

Some take pride in doing things themselves but finishing an 80% receiver is not a long way away from a guy that buys all the parts and puts them together saying he “built” the AR.

Back when I built my 50 BMG, from barstock, I contacted the ATF to make sure I was doing everything by the book (they also sent me a copy of “the book” for free). FWIW at that time, I was told that as long as I was not in the “business” of manufacturing firearms I needed no license and there were no Federal laws at the time that prohibited transferring ownership at some point. He did make himself very clear in that State laws needed to be checked also and in some cases were much more restrictive.

Now if you don’t care about laws and are one of the ”prepper” types there is the “flying under the radar” thing. Seems like you could purchase privately, just tell them you sold it, or most common just steal one, if one had nefarious intentions or otherwise refused to follow the law.

[pashiner]

I did one...because it's fun. I kept my tolerances super tight, milled it on a Bridgeport instead of using the router and jig, and now I have an AR that doesn't rattle when you shake it. That alone made it worth It to me.

[Willbird]

I fall into the “why” category because of the cost and lack of finish etc. as above one can get a ready to go lower for $40.

Some take pride in doing things themselves but finishing an 80% receiver is not a long way away from a guy that buys all the parts and puts them together saying he “built” the AR.



IMHO if you take 100 people who can assemble an AR and have them each do a 80% lower, your gonna end up with a lot of less than nice lowers in the 100 examples ;-) :-).

I made my own Kurt vise jaws to hold the lowers, and machine them on a Bridgeport.

The off the books concept is part of it....but it is not a huge jump from finishing an 80% on a Knee mill to finishing a 0% forging, I used the 0% instructions to mill my 80%.

The number of statements about it being illegal, about never being able to sell them, etc, etc demonstrates how poorly educated some members of the gun culture are.

Anderson lowers supposedly wholesale for $25 each in lots of 100. Brownells will put 100% lowers on sale from time to time, I grabbed an Aero Precision M4E1 for like $39 on sale, and snagged a Aero 308 lower too for a good price. 100% lowers are a great bargain right now but the AW ban showed us that "proof of life" as a working firearm may be key to them being grandfathered under some new laws that might pop up.

Bill

[Willbird]

Brownells is a good place to get lowers, both 80% and 100% if you get the Brownells Edge. Paid shipping on all orders except stuff like cases of ammo, no FFL fee on the Brownells end of things.

Bill

[pashiner]

Yeah, you sure don't save any time or money anymore with an 80% lower. If you just want to assemble a rifle and have good success, 100% is the way to go.

[Conditor22]

A friend finally got a long needed divorce, then he got a better job :)

He went gun shopping to make up for many dry years.

they quickly put the kibosh on him (stopped him) and made him wait x amount of time between purchases)

[MrWolf]

A friend finally got a long needed divorce, then he got a better job :)

He went gun shopping to make up for many dry years.

they quickly put the kibosh on him (stopped him) and made him wait x amount of time between purchases)

Think he needs to move to a more gun friendly environment. I did and don't regret it. Can't see my grown kids as much but wouldn't go back for anything.

[RP]

Spare parts are just new gun seeds. :)

I left that part out and with me you are correct my spare AR lowers have all grown into completes lol working on a 6.5 grendel now lol. This is going to be my yote gun mounted a photon night scope on her and got me a heavy duty camera tripod I am adapting to hold her in the field since I am using it to scan the fields, I made the mistake of not having a platform to hold the rifle and when I found a dog around 200 yards out my arms were so tired I could not hold still well enough to take a shot.
Night hunting is all new to me and it seems I learn what not to do every time I go. Now I am debating do I really need to go buy a few more lowers since I already want to get a 6.5 grendel in a pistol.

[jmorris]

IMHO if you take 100 people who can assemble an AR and have them each do a 80% lower, your gonna end up with a lot of less than nice lowers in the 100 examples .

That is for sure, very few machinists are also well versed in anodizing, so even if you are not a “hack” you will have a learning curve.

[shortfal]

Bought a couple 80% with lower parts for something like $60 each. I'm 07/C2 but never had done one so I did just cause I could. Picked up the dimensions and pin hole locations from a factory lower and put in the DRO on the Bridgeport. Took a bit longer than I thought it would but it all went together fine and works well. GunCote over oxide blasted should make a decent finish. No way it makes any sense $$$wise.
Pete

[Binky]

As the OP of this thread, I have enjoyed its progression and the thoughts and opinions of the other posters. I just put together my second AR, a 6.5 Grendel. Bought a fully finished Anderson lower which I added the internals and a little better trigger than come with most kits and a complete upper (from Midway). It came out nice but haven't made it to the range yet for a test fire. Thanks again for the opinions and thoughts!

[6bg6ga]

Bought a couple 80% with lower parts for something like $60 each. I'm 07/C2 but never had done one so I did just cause I could. Picked up the dimensions and pin hole locations from a factory lower and put in the DRO on the Bridgeport. Took a bit longer than I thought it would but it all went together fine and works well. GunCote over oxide blasted should make a decent finish. No way it makes any sense $$$wise.
Pete

Its never going to make sense $$$wise and never will and that isn't the idea. The idea is to complete a 80% lower that isn't registered at least that is my take on it. Finishing a 80% lower isn't illegal either and assures that your AR won't be picked up because in all actuality it doesn't exist. It also provides a sense of accomplishment to some that have never completed a project like this.

[bob208]

and yet know one comes out against some one building a flintlock or caplock rifle or even a cap and ball pistol kit.

[Willbird]

and yet know one comes out against some one building a flintlock or caplock rifle or even a cap and ball pistol kit.

or buying a conversion cylinder to fire fixed ammunition in a cap and ball revolver.

[Whiterabbit]

This looks like the place to ask.
First a little background. I am putting together another AR lower. I am going to use an Anderson unit as I have found them to be well made and consistent as well as low priced. (under 50 bucks in my area.)

There are many options to choose from. Colors, special engraving ect. (none of which I have an interest in.) Another option is/are the 80 % lowers.

Now for the question:

Why would anyone go with a 80% receiver? They cost more. You have to do a certain amount of machine work in order that they function correctly. When you are done, you have a functional gun that you can't sell, even at cost. You can't trade it to a dealer(the ones that I have talked to will not trade in guns made after 1968 that aren't numbered) And we all know that at some point in the next few decades there will be no transfer without going through a FFL (whether we like it or not, it only takes one election cycle!).

The two reasons I can think of are:
1. To see if I can actually do the work to make the thing work.
2. Reasoning of the Bubbas in my area: I don't want the gubmint to know I have firearms. Which we all know doesn't hold water.

What am I missing here?

If I have gotten to political or stepped on toes, my sincere apology but I have been wondering about this for some time.

It does hold water.

Before California SB857, I could buy 80's and build AR15's and no, the state does NOT know it. It doesn;t matter if they know about the bolt rifles and revolvers I have, AR's become a "non-issue".

THUS, when they later pass SB880, and other AR bans, then I don't have DOJ kicking in my door, because I'm not on the list of people they need to check compliance on. And Californians HAVE had their doors kicked in by DOJ and arms confiscated because of AW ban laws.

It's moot since SB857, but before that law it was quite reasonable to want an 80 "so the government does not know".

[Whiterabbit]

We can play the california card for "it's cheaper", too.

Let's say I'm a happy-go-lucky castbooliteer, and thus already own a vertical mill, a 3-flute 3/8" end mill, and clamps. You get the idea.

As a Californian, our government collects sales tax on out of state purchases, including shipping, charges $25 to transfer a firearm, and 'charges' me a 10 day wait on firearms.

Therefore, that $35 lower costs me $5 to ship, 10% (yes our sales tax is 10%) of $40, so another $4, and $25 to transfer, making that $35 lower now $69. The $40 80% costs $6 to ship to my door by FRB and I'm GTG for $46. sales tax brings it up to <$50.

So, it was cheaper. Before SB857 (which demanded a $19 registration fee among other things like serial engraving, etc)

[Whiterabbit]

By the way, why, 80%? government fear. This is the California legislative response to 80% firearms as soon as they caught wind of them, stretched over a few legislative cycles:




Starting 07-01-2018, self-made (80%) firearms require CA DOJ approved information engraved on the firearm in order to be CA legal [PC 29180(b)] and a requirement for self-made firearm with a non-metallic receiver/frame is to have the CA DOJ isssued serial number marked on 3.7oz of PH 17-4 stainless steel embedded in the receiver/frame (in such a manner that removal with significantly damage or destroy the receiver/frame) [PC 29180(b)(2)(B) and 11 CCR 5519].

No commerically available 80% polymer receiver/frame meets the 3.7oz PH 17-4 stainless steel requirement.

In addition...
1. All self-made firearms must comply with CA assault weapons laws and generally prohibited weapons (AW, DD, MG, SBR, SBS, etc) laws. [PC 29182(e)(1)]
2. All self-made handguns need to be made in compliance with CA unsafe handgun laws. [PC 29182(e)(2)]

Which means, in order to be CA legal...
1. A self-made revolver needs to pass CA DOJ safety testing. [PC 31910(a)]
2. A self-made manually operated repeating pistol needs to pass CA DOJ safety testing. [PC 31910(b)]
3. A self-made semi-auto pistol needs to have all CA mandated safety features (chamber load indicator, magazine disconnect mechansim, microstamping array) and pass CA DOJ safety testing. [PC 31910(b)]

In order to avoid all that...
1. A self-made revolver needs to be a dimensionally compliant single-action revolver. [PC 32100(a)]
2. A self-made pistol needs to be a dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol or a dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistol. [PC 32100(b)]
^In order to remain CA legal, a dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol or dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistol needs to remain configured as such while it is in CA. Modifying it into another type of pistol would be viewed as manufacturing a new unsafe handgun.

Starting 01-01-2019...
1. It is illegal to transfer the ownership of self-made firearms in CA [PC 29180(d)(1)], only exemption is for transferring to law enforcement for destruction. [PC 29180(d)(2)]
2. Non-exempt unregistered self-made firearms are subject to confiscation, and destruction, as evidence of violating CA self-made firearm laws. [PC 29180(d)(3)]



--------------------------

THAT is evidence of government fear of gun ownership, right there.