.453 bullets in a 625-6 (45ACP)

[Old Ephraim]

I picked up some .45 bullets over at Mt. Baldy's shop this week for use in my Rugers, but I'm now a little curious about trying the 265 grain Keiths (sized at .453) in my 625-6. The heaviest load I've put through that 625 is a 255 SWC sized at .452 over 6.5 grains of Unique. My chrony tells me that they're leaving my gun at 1015 fps, which is cool because that gives me 503 ft lbs at 100 yards, which makes it legal to hunt with in Wyoming.

Would it be pushing it to; 1- use those .453 sized bullets in the 625, and 2- could I safely reach a velocity (I think about 1030fps would work) to hit that 500 ft lb @ 100 yard mark? I'm not looking to wear out the 625 early, I have bigger, stronger revolvers, I just like to know what my options are.

thanks, Old Ephraim

[oldhickory]

Seems like you're asking an awful lot from a .45ACP/AUTO RIM. when better calibers are available for the task. .44mag, .45Colt, .44spl, .41mag, and a whole host of others. I don't like carrying anything heavier than an "N" frame S&W myself, (629-3 4'' .44mag, 20gr. 2400 under a Lyman 429421). If I find myself in need of something heavier than that, I'll choose a M70, or a 94 for the task.

I wouldn't attempt to hot-rod that 625-5 though, you're just asking for trouble with boolits that heavy...A good modern .45Colt, YES! A 625-5, .45ACP...NO! You're loosing too much powder space with the heavy slugs and increasing pressures WAY beyond what it was designed for. My OLD Speer manual lists the .45ACP/AutoRim with a 250gr lead boolit with 6.2gr of Unique MAX, (824fps).

[dubber123]

What barrel length is your 625-6? I haven't fooled with much over 255 grs. in mine, (4" version).

[Old Ephraim]

oldhickory "You're loosing too much powder space with the heavy slugs and increasing pressures WAY beyond what it was designed for. My OLD Speer manual lists the .45ACP/AutoRim with a 250gr lead boolit with 6.2gr of Unique MAX, (824fps). "

Thanks oldhickory. I usually strictly stick to the manuals, but for the 255 SWC data I tried some load data from a John Taffin article, which went up to 7.0 of Unique for that bullet. I stopped at 6.5 grains simply because it suited my purposes and with that load I did not observe any obvious signs of pressure, and it was an accurate load. With the 265 Keith I'm thinking of trying I will actually have a (very) slight gain in case capacity over the 255 because of the placement of the crimp groove (there's a little less bullet behind the crimp groove on the 265 when compared to the 255 I'm using). Right now I'm a little more concerned about the bullet diameter, .453 vs .452, and the potential for a pressure increase in that area.

dubber123 "What barrel length is your 625-6? I haven't fooled with much over 255 grs. in mine, (4" version). "

dubber123. It's a 5"er. I shoulda said so at the beginning.

[MtGun44]

Elmer recommended 7.5 Unique for the 452423 which is about 240 IIRC. I shoot
this boolit in my old Brazilian M1937, and never had the need to push past 7.0 unique.
7.0 Uniq/452423 is the most accurate I have ever shot in this gun (.454" boolit diam) and
it moved over to just about on the fixed sights at 25yds. I am not endorsing the
7.5 Gr load, and it is well over the book loads now days. I don't think you'll actually
break the pistol, but it is definitely in the +P+ range. :-D

Elmer is reported to have blown up more than a few pistols while he was finding
the limits. . . . . . I'll bet he tried far past 7.5 unique.

I think you'll do fine with that 7.0 load if you don't shoot past 50 yds and can put the
shot where it needs to be. Choose your range to what you can hit a 8" paper
plate every time from a realistic field position, whatever that might be
in your hunting conditions.

However - if you really need to "make major" for hunting, maybe the .44 mag would
be a better choice.

Bill

[Dale53]

Old Eph;
You will not see a serious pressure increase with .001" larger bullet diameter. What you MIGHT find, however, is that you won't be able to load a cartridge of that diameter. Make up a dummy round and see if it'll chamber in ALL of your revolver chambers. If it does, then you are "good to go".

The rule of thumb with revolvers is to use the biggest diameter cast bullet that you can chamber easily. I have several .32 H&R Mags. Most of them will handle a .314" bullet but my Ruger SP101 will not easily chamber a case that contains a bullet that large. However, .313" works well in it and all of the rest, so that is my sizing diameter.

If you find that the .453" bullets are too large, just size them to .452". If you don't cast bullets a Lee sizing die for your reloading press will handle that well and it is inexpensive:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=116429

This sizing die will work with whatever loading press you have. Basically, the bullet punch installs in place of the shellholder and you merely push the bullet through the die. It is quick and precise.

FWIW
Dale53

[Old Ephraim]

Bill, funny you bring up Elmer so quickly. Before I posted this question this morning I was wondering to myself "What Would Elmer Do?", so I spent some time flipping thru my well worn copy of Sixguns looking for an answer. It never takes too much reading in there to remember how many 'parts guns' Elmer created over the years. Even though...it never gets old re-reading anything Elmer had to write about.

Dale53, that's exactly what I was wanting to know, thanks. I just loaded 6 so I could put them in a moon clip to see if they would chamber easily...they did. I think I'll start with 6.0 of Unique and put 'em on paper and across the chrony and see where I'm at.

[dubber123]

Keep us posted, I'm interested. My "hot" loadings so far have been with 215 gr. RF's and Power Pistol powder. My Heavier boolit experimentation only amounted to a couple clips worth in the 800 fps. range.

[MtGun44]

Ephriam,

I did exactly what you are doing when I had poor results at first with my 1937
revolver. I looked up what Elmer said. Turned out he helped me a lot to get
an accurate, to the fixed sights load - but pretty hot. With the new steels and
better heat treat, I doubt you'll damage anything with hot loads enough to
sight in and hunt. It may wear on the gun to shoot these things all the time.

I do enjoy re-reading his stuff, too. :-D

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

What interests me is that I ran these figures with my data and for me to get 1015 fps, I would need 8.2 grains of Unique. So you have a very tight handgun. You are producing the pressure necessary to achieve the velocity with less powder. This is OK, just understand that when you load.

Quickload predicts that pressure to be 24,000 psi. Just so you know.

[Old Ephraim]

Bass Ackward, you raise a good point, and thanks for posting the pressure data. When working up that load off the Taffin data he was using a 4" Model 22-4, with a 255 SWC over 7.0 of Unique and was getting 944 fps. When I tried it in my gun I dropped down to 6.0 of Unique to start with and my first 5 shots averaged 964 fps. I knew something was up with the pressure and I was glad I've always had a habit of starting low and working up.

dubber123, I'll keep ya posted. I don't know how "hot" these'll get, I'm ususally only comfortable being "plenty warm":mrgreen:.

MtGun44, you know what two things Elmer and my wife have in common? I love 'em both, and they both scare the hell outta me!

[35remington]

Lemme caution you about something - a lot of what was published in the past re: 255 SWC's and Unique is incorrect now. DON'T do what Elmer did!

Believe me, that load of Unique in your gun isn't super efficient. I get similar velocities (if I went up to 7 grains; I do not!) as in, in line with what you'd get if I loaded as heavy as you do. I also have a five inch 625-3. 6.8 grains was my heaviest load. This with deeply seated 255 SWC's ala Taffin, which was the article you cited that I don't particularly hold in high regard. First time I can say that about the man. My bullets were seated out further than his really short OAL's. I normally load lighter; I was chicken beyond 6.8 after seeing what my chronograph readings were. Pressure is starting to ratchet up fast with each tenth grain increase.

Bass, 8.2 of Unique under a 255 is beyond what is prudent. Quickload is off here. Perhaps a different SWC? Anyway, the point being if we're loading to +P we're slightly beyond that according to the program. A revolver does have better case support than an auto even if the cylinder walls are not all that thick, so be the judge if 24,000 is prudent or not in these revolvers.

I wouldn't load 8.2 of Unique under any 255 of any configuration in the ACP/Auto Rim. I call a halt with Unique and 255's around 40-50 fps slower than you are running.

FWIW, a gunsmith I know of uses that same load (7.0 Unique) to seat the barrel lugs on 1911's using a 255 SWC. If seated as deeply as Taffin did with 255's that'd eat your auto pretty quick.

Keep 7.0/Unique and a 255 the heck away from everything autoloading. Period. I'd guess that to be good for about 1050/1080 from a five inch 1911. Way, way too much.

How much case capacity is eaten up by the bullet has a bearing here. Further out is better; most of the commercial cast 255's are rather deeply seated. Almost too much so. I'd stay away from 7 grains Unique with them, even in a revolver.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, 8.2 of Unique under a 255 is beyond what is prudent. Quickload is off here. Perhaps a different SWC? Anyway, the point being if we're loading to +P we're slightly beyond that according to the program. A revolver does have better case support than an auto even if the cylinder walls are not all that thick, so be the judge if 24,000 is prudent or not in these revolvers.

I wouldn't load 8.2 of Unique under any 255 of any configuration in the ACP/Auto Rim. I call a halt with Unique and 255's around 40-50 fps slower than you are running.


Beyond? 8.2 grains is WAY beyond. I would never load it. It was a figure to make sure he understood where he was operating. This was a computer projection to show that he wasn't generating 1035 on 18,000 by any stretch.

I had no exact figures for case volume, or seating depth, bullet weight or any of the others that would be required to make the program track to "that" gun. So the program calculated using my figures to give what it would take to get a 5" barrel on my gun to his listed velocities. That was the pressure I quoted. And in my gun, with my components, loaded as I would load it, it would have taken @ 24,000 to do that.

Another component is that we all want to treat pressure figures the same. The rate of pressure in a smaller case is also a factor, not just the number. A slow build up to a pressure level puts far less stress on metal than a sharp spike. That's what fatigues the metal.

[35remington]

"And in my gun, with my components, loaded as I would load it, it would have taken @ 24,000 to do that."

That I can well believe. The 8.2 bizness wasn't clear from the post; just making sure nobody gets any wild ideas from this thread. The 255 grain bullets and their varied seating depth makes exact advisable charge a little chancy to recommend, which is why I stop at 950-960 fps. Nothing shot with it would notice an additional 60 feet per second.

One of the few areas 2400 seems to have any application in the 625 is with these heavier bullets, and 13 grains for a bit under 1000 fps (980) seems usable. I go no further.

When bullet weight drops to the 230's extreme spreads in velocity go up with 2400, and velocity with that charge is no better than with faster powders. In some cases it's noticeably lower.

[FN in MT]

FWIW......Did some loads that are similar in a M625 4" a few years ago.

ALL the brass was new Starline .45 Auto Rim. Shot over a chrono at 12'

6.0 of current UNIQUE, CCI 300, 255 gr lead SWC @ .452" = 854 fps (6 shots)

7.0 of current UNIQUE, CC 300, " " = 934 fps (6 shots)

Easy extraction.....primers looked normal.

Each gun is a Law unto itself, throat and barrel dimensions vary, etc.

But...I find it surprising You are getting 1000+ fps with 6.5 of Unique. Didn't note what barrel length You had. 4".....5" ??

FN in MT

[MtGun44]

Even in my old 1937 S&W with ACP brass and the 452423 7.0 Unique
shows zero signs of high pressure. Easy extraction, very normal primers.

My only concern is that it is above the loading manuals of today. My old Lyman
No. 38 manual shows 7.2 Unique under the 454424 250 gr SWC as 845 fps in
.45 Auto rim in Colt New Service. It also shows 7.2 Unique under the 452374
which is a 230 LRN at 940 in the 1911. So - these are not wildly insane loads,
but are probably a bit hot, +P for sure and maybe +P+ by today's stds.

Every gun is a thing unto itself, which is why we start low. Using the chrono
to set the same resulting velocity with your gun is a good way to get about the
same pressure, assuming the same bullet design and material.

Ya'll be careful out there ! :Fire:

Bill

[NHlever]

I have an old article on hunting with the .45 Auto Rim in which the author recommends using a 240 grain Sierra JHP over 13.5 grains of Alliant 2400, and the 250 grain Keith over 14.0 or Alliant 2400. The new 2400 is somewhat faster burning, so I would certainly work up to that. The velocity of that load is slightly over 1000 fps from 5", and 6 1/2" barrels, and he does not recommend loading it for the older guns, but does use it in Smith 625's.

[Old Ephraim]

FN in MT, It's a 5" barrel, and I was a little suprised at the velocities I was getting too. I just checked my notes. I ran them arcoss the chrony on 7/20 of this year, sunny and 75 degrees that day, the highest velocity I got was 1029 and the lowest was 1007 and 1015 was the average of 5 shots 6 feet from the chrony. Used federal brass and a taper crimp. I had no visible signs of pressure and all six cases extracted easily. I remember trying to convince myself that something had to be amiss here, so I measured the OAL of the cartridges, put 6 in the moon clip, I'd fire a round, take 'em out, replace the empty brass, fire a new one from that same position in the moon clip until I did this a half dozen times. I measured the 5 cartridges that were in the gun for the 6 shots and exactly nothing had changed from the initial measurement, no pulling on the bullets at all.

For those bringing up case capacity, I seat the bullets so the back side of the front driving band meets up with the end of the case. I measured my 255 SWC and the 265 Keiths I'm playing with. The distance from the bullet base to the back side of the front driving band on the 255's is .376", and the 265's are at .359", so even though the Keiths are a little heavier, I'm actually gaining a tiny bit in case capacity.

Found out I have a sick chrony and mailed it back east today. Thank goodness my co-workers shoot too, one of them is going to bring his in for me. By the way, the Shooting Chrony folks said that they don't work on red or black one's anymore. Glad mine's green.

[35remington]

Give me a deeply seated 255 and I can get quite high velocities with a seemingly moderate amount of powder. What was moderate in the past is sometimes no longer so today.

A 200 grain 68 pattern SWC gets 1150 plus out of a 1911 with 7.2 of Unique and I'd call that up around Plus P; that's over the top for sure for a 1911 with a 230 and would be +P+. And not much slower, at least out of a 1911. It would be going a lot faster than 940, believe me.

It would not be slow out of a 625 either. Some of the ball shape 230's don't take up much capacity. Comparatively.

I found the 452423 to have noticeably more moderate pressures - velocities, for sure, anyway - with similar charges compared to the 255's as has MtGun44.

With the heavy bullets anything but quite hard lead has been a waste of time. At least for me and what I've shot.

[Old Ephraim]

Just in case anyone was curious. I finally got my chrony back and went out this morning. I loaded some of the .453 sized 265 Keith Mt Baldy's over 6.0 of Unique and ran them through the 625-6 (5"). The velocity average was 914.8 fps for 10 shots 5' from the chrony. I'd forgotten my clips, so they were all fired without one. Ejecting the spent brass required no effort, just poked them easily with a pencil and they fell right out. No visable signs of pressure on the brass or primer.

I didn't measure the one group I shot without a rest, which was 5 shots at (about) 20 yards. They were all under 3". Plum pleasant load to shoot, especially compared the the 45 Colt loads with the 310 Keiths I was playin' with in the Rugers.

Hope y'all been well and have been getting some shooting in.

[sixshot]

Good topic here & good replies. Refreshing to not see people getting upset with different opinions.
The loads mentioned are pretty warm for a 45 ACP or Auto Rim, maybe not dangerous but it will certainly excelerate the wear on your good N frame blaster. Rather than stress any gun its better to move up to a heavy duty single action, etc, especially when you move into the heavyweight slugs. Even the S&W's with the endurance package can take a pounding from repeated heavy slugs/loads.

Dick